Talk:Jews
Someone writes "A Jew is a descendant of Satan, through the Kenites. Jews are Communists, gangsters, child pornographers, and there seem to be a lot of them at Wikipedia too. Jews love to lie. They are cheap and cheat everyone out of their money. They loved crucifying Christ. They love to abort white babies. Most Jews are homsexuals, transvestites, or lesbians."
Pathetic. More anti-Semitic vandalsim of Wikipedia. :( RK
This article is poorly titled. We need singular titles, unless the subject is always pluralized. Koyaanis Qatsi
Any suggestions? For me the singular "Jew" sounds somewhat derogatory. How about the Jewish people? --maveric149
I don't think "Jew" sounds derogatory. Then again, I think that the names of ethnic groups should be pluralized, so I prefer "Jews" Danny
Groups of people are associated in a number of different ways, most of which suggest better titles for the subject: if they're related by religion or belief, for example, title the article after that: Judaism, Socialism, etc. If they're related by geography or nationality, that should be covered under topics like Israel, Africa, Ottoman Empire, etc. But what about cultures and races that apply only to the people themselves and that are not related to a place or a government or a religion? There probably aren't many cases, but I can certainly think of a few: Bedoins, Huns, Zulus, and yes, Jews. And I think we do have to use singular nouns, even though the plurals make better titles, so that we can make links like "The Israeli government recognizes an immigrant as a Jew if his or her mother was Jewish..." or "The Bantu Stephen Biko was a South African activist..." So yes, I think there should be an article "Jew", which contains aspects of Jewish culture not related to the religion of Judaism or the state of Israel, and should explain the distinctions, and the fact that the term is used ambiguously (at least "Zulu" won't have that problem). -- Lee Daniel Crocker
- For the record, the magic of redirects seems to take care of this already -- Jew is a redirect to the prettier title Jews, where the article sits. While it is possible for redirects to get messy when they're used extensively, I think this is a cases where it's not illegitimate to have them and use them unashamedly. (Note also that the next revision of the software will include links via redirects in the "pages that link here" list, making clean-up much easier in the case that such an article gets retitles later.) Brion VIBBER, Wednesday, May 1, 2002
Lee writes "I think there should be an article 'Jew', which contains aspects of Jewish culture not related to the religion of Judaism or the state of Israel, and should explain the distinctions, and the fact that the term is used ambiguously"
- Jewish culture should be incorporated into the current entry "Jews". It already makes the distinction between a Jewish person, and a person who actually follows the religion known as Judaism; this section can be expanded if need be. However, from a historical point of view, there is no such thing as Jewish culture separate from Judaism. In fact, most Jews themselves refuse to define Judaism as a religion; its never been seen that way in the classical rabbinic era, and it isn't seen that way today by Reform, Reconstructionist, Conservative or Modern Orthodox Jews. Only ultra-Orthodox Jews and secular Jews who reject all aspects of Judaism altogether treat Judaism as a religion. For the last 2,000 years, Jewish art, music, culture, literature, theology, philosophy, liturgy and religious works have all been part of one organic whole. I would say that having an article on parts of Jewish culture that are distinct from Judaism would be on oxymoron. One could, of course, have entries that specifically deal with Jewish art, Jewish literature, Jewish culture, Jewish cooking, Jewish music, etc. [[RK]]
But we do have to cover the religion as a religion, and "Judaism" is clearly the best name for it: To me, and probably to most people, the word "Judaism" implies the religion, and only the religion. And there are certainly religious influences in art, literature, and even cooking; but what about things like the Yiddish language? Holocaust remembrance? Regardless of the fact that there is lots of overlap, there is a culture and the is a religion and they need to be treated in two articles. Both of those articles, though, will naturally emphasize the links between the two subjects. --LDC
- I would disagre for the following points. There never existed any Yiddish language, literature or culture, except as a part of Judaism. Where does it exist as some distinct entity that can be discussed without reference to Judaism? Nowhere. Holocaust remembrance is the one place where I think you have a valid point, because many Jews who have long since left Judaism still feel compelled to deal with the Holocaust in some way, even if they do som from a secualr, and often non-Jewish, point of view. I agree with you that there is a culture, but I just don't understand what you are referring to when you imply that there is some sort of Jewish culture distinct from Judaism. I am not aware of any. In the latter half of the 1800s, to the early part of the 20th century, many secularized Jews (many of whom were extremely anti-religion in all ways) attempted to create a secular Jewish cultures divorced from Judaism - these were the Bundists. Their movement failed. It can be examined in an article of course, but an article on the Jewish Bund culture that was divorced from Judaism would have to be noted as an exception to the rule, and not the rule itself. There also has been a huge defection from Judaism by Jews in American; most people of Jewish descent no longer consider themselves Jews, and even those that do claim that theyt do not practice Judaism. However - and this is the critical point - these secualr Jews have not created any sort of Jewish culture that exosts separately from Judaism. They simply do their own thing, without being part of any sort of cohesive community or worldview. [[RK]
I think that RK is taking the Mordechai Kaplan position (Judaism as a civilization)--one that I personally accept--but i have to agree with LDC about having two separate articles. There were, particularly in the last century, movements among Jews that attempted to eliminate ties with the religion. These included some Zionists, the Canaanite movement of Ratosh, and certainly the Bundists and Jewish communists. Nevertheless, they should certainly be included in an article on Jews. By the way, in support of RK's position, there is no word in Hebrew for religion. "Dat," which is now used in that sense, is a Persian word found in the Book of Esther, where it refers to the laws of Ahasueres. In that case, even the most Orthodox circles would not accept that Judaism is a religion. In fact, the only people that took that position were the early Reformers in Germany (and it was in response to a law passed in Prussia, of all places).Danny
- I agree with Mordechai Kaplan that Judaism is an evolving religious civilization, and not just a religion, but note that this isn't just his view. It is also the view of every Reform, Conservative and Modern Orthodod rabbi and scholar. Its not a value judgement; i.e. I am not claiming that Judaism should be a civilization that includes a religion; rather, I am pointing out that historically, this in fact is what it always has been. [[RK]
I think that this discussion reveals two issues that any encyclopedia article must be sensitive to. The first point is a general issue, albeit one I think many Jews would be especially sensitive to: that "religion" -- and I do not mean a particular religion or even a particular definition of religion, but rather the notion that the word religion, however defined, refers to a specific semantic domain -- is a social construct. In Western/Christian society, religion refers to an institution, including particular beliefs and practices, that are considered distinct from other institutions. But this may not be and indeed is not true for all cultures. Some cultures do not distinguish between "religion" and other domains. And I think that for most of its history, and even today for most Jews, this is true of Judaism. Even to ask "What is Jewish religion" or "How do we describe the religion of the Jews" can be anachronistic and ethnocentric questions. My point: Wikipedia should not assume that every society has a "religion" that can and should be identified as such and be described. Anyone about to research or write about another society must first ask, does this society distinguish between religious and other institutions (beliefs/practices)? Or does it map its life and world in other ways? As Danny and RK both attest, in general, Judaism does not identify any semantic domain to be "religion;" it is not a meaningful distinction within Jewish culture and to read it into Jewish culture (at least for most of its history) could only lead to misunderstanding. (I think there are good reasons for Jews to be especially sensitive to this, but I will hold off until later so as not to create an unnecessary distraction.)
The second point is particular to Jews, although perhaps relevant to other peoples. Jews have been living in Europe since Roman times, if not since Alexander. Consequently, European culture and history has affected our own. By the 19th century the distinction between secular and religious had become very important in European society, and we should not therefore be surprised that some Jews came to ask "What is Jewish Religion" and other Jews asked "What are the possibilities for a non-religious Judaism?" I believe that the Reform and Orthodox movements grew out of attempts to define what a "Jewish Religion" would be, and as Danny points out, Zionism and other modern Jewish movements often defined themselves as non- or anti-religion. As a matter of fact, I believe that the process began with Napolean's Sanhedrin. I believe he asked Jews if they could possibly be both Jewish and French. Today one can say "yes" and appeal to some notion of multi-culturalism. But back then, the only way to say "yes" was to distinguish between nationality and religion; to say that Jews are Frenchpeople who practice a particular religion. In other words, yes, the distinction between religion and not-religion became important. I think Danny raised some points that an article should address. I suggest only that these points be framed appropriately, in terms of recent changes in how Jews have come to understand themselves that owe laregly to changes in the non-Jewish world.
Here is why I, and perhaps other Jews, are especially sensitive to this issue. Christianity, at least for a very long time, defined itself as the fulfilment of Biblical religion, heirs to the covenant God made with Jews. To make this claim Christian theologians had to explain why there were Jews who were not Christian. Among other things, this requires a separation between "Jews" and "Jewish Religion." I know I am inviting confusion, because whatever contributors to this discussion think, I believe all of them understand "Jewish religion" to refer to the religion of Jews. Nevertheless, for early Christians, real Judaism was something that Christians practice, and non-Christian Jews had mistakenly turned their backs on their own Messiah, covenant with God, and God. It is perhaps here that a distinction between "religion" and "culture" first appears.
There has already been a lot of discussion about Christian anti-semitism, and I really do not want to reintoriduce controversy after there has been so much often constructive discussion. My point is simply that howevermuch a Christian may abhor anti-semitism and even anti-Judaism, they must be sensitive about how certain claims they make affect Jews. I think the question here over distinguishing between Jewish religion and Jewish culture raises the spectre of a secular form of a discourse that, in Christian form, seemed to Jews to be anti-semitic.
I am not claiming that the distinction between Jewish culture and Jewish religion is in and of itself anti-semitic, or will invite anti-semitism. I am just trying to explain why imposing on Jews a distinction that they themselves do not make can make Jews very very squeamish. But perhaps I speak only for myself... SR