Talk:Kevin MacDonald (evolutionary psychologist)

The Yahoo group referenced as a resource [1] is set to invited members-only. Unless I hear otherwise, I'll delete it as inaccessible. -Willmcw 20:47, 3 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I didn't delete after all, but added 'invitation only' since it is inaccessible. While I was editing I made some organizational changes - some of the sentences and clauses had gotten out of logical order - and added some objective facts. -Willmcw 06:55, 5 Dec 2004 (UTC)

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MacDonald also neglects the fact that intermarriage rates between Jews and non-Jews in Europe and North America are significantly higher than that of numerous other religious and ethnic groups (see Silent Holocaust). He also ignores the 19th century Haskalah movement that sought to integrate Jews into European society and the move by many in the Jewish community before World War II in favour of assimilation, including the widespread conversion to Christianity of upper-class and middle-class Jews in Britain, France, and Germany in the nineteenth and early twentieth centuries. His alleged tendency to dismiss or ignore evidence that contradicts his thesis and cherry-pick evidence that might support his thesis leads to accusations that MacDonald is guilty of tunnel vision.

Where are references for these criticisms? Links to people who have made them would be good, as would proof that he has actually ignored those points -- has anyone who contributes to this page actually read his books? Jacquerie27

That has become a moot point because Professor MacDonald has apparently swamped the criticism by several hundred words of rebuttal. This article is growing into an autobiography by the professor. Maybe we ought to create a MacDonald responds to his critics section for his additions. I notice that he has not deigned to discuss his changes. -Willmcw 19:34, 17 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Guidelines on "autobiography"

From Wikipedia:Auto-biography:

If you are reasonably significant, someone will create an article about you sooner or later. Some of us feel that even editing an article about yourself is best avoided, on the same principle. If you do so, please only add verifiable information and be especially careful to respect the neutral point of view. Noting objections or corrections on the talk page may be appropriate.

AndyL 01:06, 18 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Given the above I think we should ask Professor MacDonald to bring his corrections and edits to the talk page rather than implement them unilaterallyAndyL 01:06, 18 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I think that may be necessary. Fixing factual errors is one thing, writing whole essays is another. -Willmcw 05:25, 18 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Removed: "We should note, however, that intermarriage is easier in a statistical sense for a minority, because more partners and a wider variety of partners are available from the majority community than within the minority community itself. "

This is pov and, frankly, utter nonsense which doesn't explain a) why the Jewish intermarriage rate has increased through the twentieth century b) why it's higher than that of other minorities including minorities that are much less numerous (eg the Samaritans or the Parsees and, in North America the Amish and Sikhs) and c) has nothing to do with ethnocentrism or with MacDonald. If intermarriage is "easier" for a minority that doesn't mean a minority is bound to intermarry. Indeed, if a minority is highly exclusive or ethnocentric the "ease" of intermarriage is immaterial.

"All Jews could find non-Jewish partners if they wished, but all non-Jews could not find Jewish partners, even if they wished to do so. An equal propensity to intermarriage in minority and majority communities will therefore produce higher rates of intermarriage in the minority community."

Irrelevent and immaterial as well as somewhat tortured logic. Does this mean if 100% of Jews married gentiles Jews would be "ethnocentric" because only 5% of gentiles could marry Jews?

"Religious practice among Jews has also liberalized or declined as part of a wider process of secularization in western societies, and the Jewish historian Yuri Slezkine also argues in his book The Jewish Century (2004) that western society in general has increasingly acquired Jewish characteristics in the past century. These factors may suggest that intermarriage has increased in part because the gap between Jews and non-Jews has shrunk."

This may be relevant to an article on intermarriage but it has nothing to do with MacDonald or the question of ethnocentrism. AndyL 22:15, 22 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Removed: "We should note, however, that intermarriage is easier in a statistical sense for a minority, because more partners and a wider variety of partners are available from the majority community than within the minority community itself. "

This is pov and, frankly, utter nonsense which doesn't explain a) why the Jewish intermarriage rate has increased through the twentieth century b) why it's higher than that of other minorities including minorities that are much less numerous (eg the Samaritans or the Parsees) and c) has nothing to do with ethnocentrism or with MacDonald. If intermarriage is "easier" for a minority that doesn't mean a minority is bound to intermarry. Indeed, if a minority is highly exclusive or ethnocentric the "ease" of intermarriage is immaterial.

In what way is it "utter nonsense"? There is more pressure on a minority to retain its status than on a majority, for obvious reasons. Use of Yiddish has declined markedly among Jews because there are far more people to speak English to -- another consequence of Jews' minority status. Nor does it claim to explain those facts.

"All Jews could find non-Jewish partners if they wished, but all non-Jews could not find Jewish partners, even if they wished to do so. An equal propensity to intermarriage in minority and majority communities will therefore produce higher rates of intermarriage in the minority community."

Irrelevent and immaterial as well as somewhat tortured logic. Does this mean if 100% of Jews married gentiles Jews would be "ethnocentric" because only 5% of gentiles could marry Jews?

Huh? No, it would mean Jews are 5% of the gentile population.

"Religious practice among Jews has also liberalized or declined as part of a wider process of secularization in western societies, and the Jewish historian Yuri Slezkine also argues in his book The Jewish Century (2004) that western society in general has increasingly acquired Jewish characteristics in the past century. These factors may suggest that intermarriage has increased in part because the gap between Jews and non-Jews has shrunk."

This may be relevant to an article on intermarriage but it has nothing to do with MacDonald or the question of ethnocentrism. AndyL 22:16, 22 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Of course it has something to do with MacDonald: it is a thesis about Jewish influence on society, which is something he examines, and it may account for increased rates of intermarriage, which again is relevant to MacDonald. Jacquerie27 14:13, 23 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Does MacDonald make these arguments himself or are you making them for him?AndyL 14:40, 23 Dec 2004 (UTC)

"In what way is it "utter nonsense"? There is more pressure on a minority to retain its status than on a majority, for obvious reasons."

Then why are the Jews more inclined towards assimilation and intermarriage than, say, the Amish in the US or, say, Muslims in Europe or "Gypsies" in general?

"Yiddish has declined markedly among Jews because there are far more people to speak English to"

And there were not more Russian people to speak to for Russian Jews in the 19th century?

Huh? No, it would mean Jews are 5% of the gentile population.

Again, what does your original statement have to do with MacDonald? The article is on MacDonald, not on your own theories or apologias.AndyL 14:40, 23 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I agree; Wikipedia is not the place for original research. Theories about intermarriage etc., if published, should be presented in an appropriate article (not this one, since this one is about Kevin J. MacDonald). Jayjg 18:06, 23 Dec 2004 (UTC)

MacDonald is a published scholar and no one should object to representing his views in the article. But we need to stick to his published views. Moreover, he is not an important scholar of Jewish studies, and it sounds like most of his arguments are specultive. I don't see how they merit this much discussion. Slrubenstein 17:09, 23 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Highly speculative; cannot be falsified or factually proven. We are not in the business to be his platform. The insertions happen to be factually incorrect. For example: Yiddish is markedly on the rise: both in non-religious (Bundist) and religious (Hasidim) circles. The discussion here mirrors a similar one on Jewish ethnocentrism.

His speculations about the Frankfurt School are a laugh. What makes this a particularily Jewish undertaking? None of them could claim any proficiency in the actual body of Jewish thought. Equating Jews with Marxists is a very dangerous generalisation that smells of McCarthyism. JFW | T@lk 18:12, 23 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I think the "real" story here -- more than the possible anti-semitism -- is the way many social scientists, in this case a psychologist, misunderstand and misuse biology. Slrubenstein 19:56, 23 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Yiddish is markedly on the rise -- because it shrunk markedly in the past. And there are very few, if any, Yiddish speakers left who do not also speak English. Lower Amish and Muslim intermarriage rates can also be accounted for. Nor has MacDonald "equated" Jews with Marxists, but from Marx himself onward, Jews have certainly played an important role in Marxism. And in Freudianism, and in the Frankfurt school. And in chess and nuclear physics. Interesting facts inviting explanation. Jacquerie27 22:12, 23 Dec 2004 (UTC)

There are many, many Jews who reject Marx and Freud. But if you want an explanation, here it is: Jews were excluded from European life in most places until the mid 1800s, so it is understandable that they would find theories critical of European society attractive. This relates to the whole Yiddish thing -- the reason Yiddish declined is simple: the Holocaust. Now, what is the significance of these points? They suggest that you will be able to understand more of Jewish history if you look at political, economic, and social history than if you look for some evolutionary mechanism. Slrubenstein 22:56, 23 Dec 2004 (UTC)

They aren't mutually exclusive. There are many, many Jews who reject Marx and Freud. Yes: MacDonald stresses that the vast majority of Jews were not involved in, e.g., communism. Nevertheless, the role of Jews in, e.g., communism was highly significant. Jacquerie27 00:08, 24 Dec 2004 (UTC)

A) Most Jews were not communists b) Most Communists were (and are) not Jews, not in any time in the history of Marxism (and no, most of the leadership of the Bolsheviks were not Jews - in fact Jewish participation in the rival Mensheviks was much higher). To imply, as you and Macdonald do, that Communism or socialism are Jewish movements is absurd and it nothing but a hoary old canard trotted out by anti-Semites over the years.AndyL 14:37, 24 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I'm not sure what "also speaking English" has to do with it. The number of Jews with Yiddish as a mother tongue, as their first language, is on the rise again, after a long and steep decline. As for accounting for Amish etc. intermarriage rates, does MacDonald do so, or is this something you have thought of? Jayjg 22:20, 23 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Jacquerie, you managed to miss my point. There are many succesful Jewish scientists because when Jews assimilate, they still admire knowledge for its own sake. And they're willing to teach it as well, not like the Church monopolised on knowledge during the Middle Ages.

When I first read about Kevin MacDonald I understood that it may have been junk science. Now I know for sure. Slrubinstein is right on the mark. JFW | T@lk 22:25, 23 Dec 2004 (UTC)

How can you know for sure? This isn't mathematics. Jacquerie27 00:08, 24 Dec 2004 (UTC)

The hell it isn't. JFW | T@lk 08:43, 24 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Page is protected?

Has this page been protected? It appears 172 entered a protected notice at the same time I modified a sentence. Has there been a request for protection? Jayjg 20:37, 23 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Yes, I requested it yesterday due to KBM's editing etc. I'd rather keep it for a little bit as a means of motivating MacDonald to come to the talk page rather than edit unilaterally (the other alternative is to tempban him for violating the wikipedia rules on editing articles on yourself despite being warned). AndyL 21:15, 23 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I'm not sure pages are supposed to be protected for that reason, and I doubt he'll be back if the page doesn't changes, since he seems more or less satisfied with the contents. Jayjg 22:22, 23 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Let's wait to see if the dispute with Jacquerie27 is resolved.AndyL 22:33, 23 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Let's see what MacDonald has to say for himself: he's the one who's studied the topic in detail, not me, and it is difficult to argue against so many people, particularly on a topic as incendiary as this one. I think part of the problem is that people here, for understandable reasons, are very sensitive to theories that suggest Jews have had any significant negative influence on history. This does not mean such theories are automatically wrong or automatically ill-intentioned. Jacquerie27 00:08, 24 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Thanks for your "understanding" but there's no need to be patronising or so casually dismissive particularly when you seem to have argued yourself into a corner and are grasping at straws in your attempts to defend MacDonald. Indeed, given your previous claim that you don't actually believe MacDonald's theory, a claim I think is somewhat dubious, you should not be surprised if one doubts your intentions.AndyL 00:57, 24 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Good mixed metaphor. ;) I don't believe theories, so I don't believe MacDonald's theory. But I think it's worthy of attention and, if you like, of defence. That's how dialectic works, after all. Jacquerie27 09:45, 24 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Actually, "to take arms against a sea of troubles" (Shakespeare) is a mixed metaphor. One can actually, however, grasp at straws from a corner. AndyL 14:40, 24 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Yes, but the straws grasped at are supposed to be saving you from drowning. Jacquerie27 11:43, 25 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Ah yes, I'd forgotten that. AndyL 12:56, 25 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Let's avoid attributing motivation here on either side. The point remains that Wikipedia is not a place for original research. Jayjg 01:05, 24 Dec 2004 (UTC)

The problem is that MacDonald is adding lots of material to the article without discussing a single word, or even bothering to obtain a username. Scholarship and theories aside, he is not working collaboratively on this article. His last edit indicates an ongoing ignorance of wiki norms. [2] However, since it is not a 'hot edit war', I'm not sure that protecting the page is necessary. I think that reverting undiscussed edits by anon users would be more relevant to the problem. -Willmcw 01:14, 24 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Jacquerie27 writes about MacDonald, "theories that suggest Jews have had any significant negative influence on history." If this is indeed the theory, then it doesn't belong on the Jewish ethnocentrism page as it isn't about Jewish ethnocentrism. Slrubenstein 01:30, 24 Dec 2004 (UTC)

But if Jewish ethnocentrism has contributed to a negative Jewish influence on history, the theory is, partly, about Jewish ethnocentrism. Though personally I think Judeocentrism would be a better title. Jacquerie27 09:45, 24 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I know of no evidence to support this claim. Are there any scholars who claim this? I don't mean MacDonald, who is not an historian. Is there anyone who has researched the history of anti-Semitism who has an proof of this? Slrubenstein

You mean evidence to support the claim of Jewish ethnocentrism having a negative influence? Jacquerie27 11:43, 25 Dec 2004 (UTC)

What do you mean by "negative influence?" Negative in what way? Influence on what or whom? I just don't know what you mean. Negative influence "on history?" That is pretty vague. What exactly are you trying to say? Slrubenstein

Say the Russian revolution. That had a negative influence on the Kulaks, among others. Was Jewish ethnocentrism involved? Or mass Muslim immigration into Europe. That's having a negative influence on freedom of speech in Europe, among other things (see e.g. Theo van Gogh). Again, was Jewish ethnocentrism involved? Jacquerie27 11:08, 26 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Perhaps you should read the book Stalin's War Against the Jews by Arkady Vaksberg before you make too many assumptions about Jews benefitting from the Russian Revolution? Indeed, the Mensheviks had a much higher proportion of Jews among them than the Bolsheviks and they certainly didn't benefit from the October Revolution. As far as "mass Muslim immigration" to Europe is concerned, one result of that has been an increase in anti-Semitic incidents in countries such as France due to the opposition by sections of the Muslim population towards Jews so again hardly something from which Jews have benefitted. The reason for "mass Muslim immigration" isn't some nefarious Jewish plot but economics ie a labour shortage. AndyL 14:02, 26 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I know about Stalin and incidents like the (so-called) Doctors' Plot, so I was making no assumptions. Here's the Jewish historian Yuri Slezkine talking about what he calls the three Jewish paradises of the 20C: "all three represented different ways of being Jewish, and of being modern, in the modern world: non-ethnic liberal statehood in the United States; secular ethnic nationalism in Israel; and communism--a world without capitalism or nationalism--in the Soviet Union. ... My belief is that you can’t understand the second part of the Jewish story in Russia--the anti-Semitic policies, and what happens to Soviet Jews later, their desire to emigrate, for example--unless you know the first part of the story, which is mostly about amazing success." (http://www.alumni.berkeley.edu/Alumni/Cal_Monthly/November_2004/QA-_A_conversation_with_Yuri_Slezkine.asp) You need to learn more about Jewish involvement in European and American immigration policy too. Jacquerie27 18:51, 26 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Theo van Gogh had nothing to do with Jewish ethnocentrism. JFW | T@lk 23:40, 26 Dec 2004 (UTC)

If some Jews encouraged mass immigration into Europe to make Europe more diverse and therefore "safer" (see Jewish ethnocentrism discussion) for Jews, Theo van Gogh's death has something to do with Jewish ethnocentrism. Jacquerie27 22:24, 27 Dec 2004 (UTC)

This discussion, and much of the article content that appears under the (now-misnamed) Other criticism section should be located at the Jewish ethnocentrism article. This article is on MacDonald, the person. -Willmcw 00:12, 27 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I agree; as I've said before, far too much of this information is spread over all sorts of articles. It needs to be consolidated in the relevant ones. Jayjg | (Talk) 23:20, 27 Dec 2004 (UTC)

An alternative is to move much of that over here, or to a third article, perhaps titled Culture of Criticque, or something similar. In any case, it should be consolidated somewhere. See Talk:Jewish ethnocentrism. -Willmcw 23:46, 27 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I repeat, I still see no evidence for "Jewish ethnocentrism." That some Jews found the USSR a safe haven, or even a paradise, for a period of time is in no way evidence of ethnocentrism. Moreover, I see no evidence that any Jewish desire to live in the USSR was in any way responsible for censorship in France or Stalin's genocides. None. We have been discussing this for days and for days I have been asking for evidence and for days Jacquerie 27 has avoided presenting any evidence. No evidence -- no verifiability -- and claims have to be deleted. this is a work of scholarship. Where is the evidence? Slrubenstein 21:05, 27 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Read MacDonald's material available on the net. If you're involved in articles on him and his ideas, that would seem an obvious step to take. Search for "JEWISH INVOLVEMENT IN COMMUNISM AND THE RADICAL LEFT" at http://www.csulb.edu/~kmacd/books-Preface.html for example. An extract:

While Stalin favored the Georgians, Jews had their own ethnic scores to settle. It seems likely that at least some of the Bolshevik mass murder and terror was motivated by revenge against peoples that had historically been anti-Jewish. Several historians have suggested that Jews joined the security forces in such large numbers in order to get revenge for their treatment under the Czars (Rapoport 1990, 31; Baron 1975, 170). For example, the Cossacks served the Czar as a military police force, and they used their power against Jewish communities during the conflicts between the government and the Jews. After the Revolution, the Cossacks were deported to Siberia for refusing to join the collective farms. During the 1930s, the person in charge of the deportations was an ethnic Jew, Lazar Kaganovich, nicknamed the 'wolf of the Kremlin' because of his penchant for violence. In his drive against the peasants, Kaganovich took 'an almost perverse joy in being able to dictate to the Cossacks. He recalled too vividly what he and his family had experienced at the hands of these people.... Now they would all pay -- men, women, children. It didn't matter who. They became one and the same. That was the key to [Kaganovich's] being. He would never forgive and he would never forget' (Kahan 1987, 164). Similarly, Jews were placed in charge of security in the Ukraine, which had a long history of anti-Semitism (Lindemann 1997, 443) and became a scene of mass murder in the 1930s.

The above is not evidence of "ethnocentrism." You can view it as self-preservation (and approve of it) or as revenge (and disapprove of it) but neither are examples of ethnocentrism. Slrubenstein 22:50, 27 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Exactly. Jayjg | (Talk) 23:16, 27 Dec 2004 (UTC)

You're describing modes of competition between groups. That is what MacDonald's theory is about. To seek revenge for or the preservation of one's ethnic group is ethnocentric, not heliocentric or geocentric. If you don't agree, please describe how Jewish communists would have behaved differently if they had been acting ethnocentrically. What exactly in your opinion would constitute evidence of ethnocentrism by a particular ethnic group? Jacquerie27 10:40, 28 Dec 2004 (UTC)

you still do not understand what ethnocentrism is. It is not ethnlcentric. If Jewish communists were ethnocentric they would have not become communists, they would have become revisionist Zionists (Likud), maybe. Slrubenstein

Then please tell me: What is seeking revenge for or the preservation of one's ethnic group if it is not ethnocentric? (This is your definition of the behavior of Jewish communists.) And you still haven't told me: What exactly in your opinion would constitute evidence of ethnocentrism by a particular ethnic group? Jacquerie27 22:03, 28 Dec 2004 (UTC)

By "Jewish Communists" I think you mean Lazar Kaganovich. When one considers he approved and participated in Stalin's purging of many Jews in the 1930s as well as the purging of the Jewish Anti-Fascist Committee in the 1940s, the suppression of Jewish culture etc. Not exactly the acts of an ethnocentric Jew. AndyL 11:51, 28 Dec 2004 (UTC)

What would have happened to him if he'd disapproved and declined to purge Jewish communists with the rest? Hint: imagine Stalin asked you to "approve" a purge. Jacquerie27 22:03, 28 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I see, so when he followed Stalin's orders to purge the Ukraine, Kagonovich was acting out of "Jewish ethnocentrism" but when he participated in the purges of Jews he did so out of self-preservation. How very selective of you. AndyL 22:07, 28 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Here's that description by a Jewish historian of how Kaganovich took 'an almost perverse joy in being able to dictate to the Cossacks. He recalled too vividly what he and his family had experienced at the hands of these people.... Now they would all pay -- men, women, children. It didn't matter who. They became one and the same. That was the key to [Kaganovich's] being. He would never forgive and he would never forget' (Kahan 1987, 164). Does that sound like self-preservation to you? Jacquerie27 22:25, 28 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Whatever it sounds like, it doesn't sound like ethnocentrism. It talks about "what he and his family had experienced at the hands of these people", not what "the Jewish people" experienced. That's personal, not ethnic. By the way, does this "Jewish historian" cite this as an example of "Jewish ethnocentrism"? Jayjg | (Talk) 22:32, 28 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Support?

What is the basis for the section starting: MacDonald's views are compatible with the views of many evolutionary scientists, including: which goes on to lists three books? On who's authority do we know that they are compatible with MacDonald's theory, and is being compatible the same as supporting? -Willmcw 18:39, 28 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I'm sorry, have you read the references? I spent a couple hours researching this guy, and I found tons of support from others in his field, and precious little criticism, mainly coming from non-psychologists, and w/o a technical focus "nothing but gussied-up anti-Semitism" is typical. The support section will be expanded, when I, or others get around to it. Until then, do some research, its not hard. Even that anti-MacDonald MSN article has alot of useful info. Cheers, Sam_Spade (talk · contribs) 18:51, 28 Dec 2004 (UTC)

So you vouch for these three authors agreeing with MacDonald by name? What does compatible with mean in this context? I think that is a poor choice of words. Agree, have similar ideas, or somthing like that would be more useful. I suppose the works of Isaac Newton are compatible with MacDonald too. ;) (PS, I've done more than a couple of hours of research. Thanks for the suggestion though). Cheers, -Willmcw 19:12, 28 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Changes by MacDonald

The other editors have asked MacDonald time and again to stop making changes to his own article without first discussing them. We have had the page protected briefly in order to discourage him, but he has never made any comment or response. Since this is not an autobiography, and it is a colaborative project, MacDonald's refusal to participate in Wikipedia according to our norms is frustrating. -Willmcw 18:39, 28 Dec 2004 (UTC)

(Obviously, data on intermarriage in the United States are irrelevant to whether Judaism retains its ethnic core in Israel and other non-Western societies. Indeed, abhorrence of intermarriage and deep concern about Jewish intermarriage in Europe was a prime motive for the early Zionists in attempting to establish a Jewish state. See Separation and Its Discontents, Ch. 5.)

How do you know thats really MacDonald? If it is, it would be great to have him engaged in the talk page. I'd LOVE to have him contribute over @ Frankfurt School, or Jewish Ethnocentrism. Sam_Spade (talk · contribs) 18:51, 28 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Do some research. It's not that hard. ;) Gee, if we could get MacDonald to discuss his edits in the talk page rather than filling the article with lengthy defenses of his theories, that'd be a big help. We've tried and tried. -Willmcw 19:16, 28 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I think the solution may be to simply remove all of his changes until he finally deigns to show up here. Jayjg | (Talk) 19:47, 28 Dec 2004 (UTC)

It looks like it's gonna take a lot of removing...and MacDonald says that Jews are aggressive. -Willmcw 20:28, 28 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I've left an explicit invitation on his Talk: page; he can't miss it. Jayjg | (Talk) 20:33, 28 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Well, he ignored the comment that another editor posted there over a week ago. Would an RfC serve any purpose? I've seen at least two other instances of subjects editing their own articles, but in both cases they participated in 'Talk' discussions regarding their edits. -Willmcw 20:42, 28 Dec 2004 (UTC)

From Wikipedia:Auto-biography:

If you are reasonably significant, someone will create an article about you sooner or later. Some of us feel that even

editing an article about yourself is best avoided, on the same principle. If you do so, please only add verifiable

information and be especially careful to respect the neutral point of view. Noting objections or corrections on the talk page

may be appropriate.

Other criticisms

Alot of this section should be merged into Jewish ethnocentrism. I'll probably do that once things settle down. Sam_Spade (talk · contribs) 21:21, 28 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Per 'Talk' discussions here and on Jewish ethnocentrism, several editors agree that the material should be merged, either here or there. Do you really think it'll settle down? -Willmcw 21:24, 28 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Also, please don't add back in MacDonald's edits unless you are willing to vouch for the research yourself, or discuss it as we have asked MacDonald to do. This is not a vanity page for MacDonald to express his 'feelings'. -Willmcw 21:28, 28 Dec 2004 (UTC)

If a merger has to take place, I think this page is best, because this is the one MacDonald knows about and visits. Jacquerie27 22:03, 28 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Whoever the anon is, they provided citations. Anyways, you did a good job w the rebuttels section. Things usually settle down BTW, and if nothing else people move on. I have to admit some pages seem almost perpetually chaotic however, and sometimes I am the one to move on. When good editers move off, and partisans, trolls and etc... take over... its certainly not good for the article. Thats a meta question, and not something I think we can expect to solve here. I'm always willing to talk about stuff, BTW, so long as the conversation is civil and productive. Cheers, Sam_Spade (talk · contribs) 21:48, 28 Dec 2004 (UTC)

The anon identified himself as MacDonald in one of his earlier edits. I believe his exact statement was "I am Kevin B. MacDonald"AndyL 22:01, 28 Dec 2004 (UTC)

The anon claims to be Kevin MacDonald, as you can see from his edit record. This is the only article he has edited. Certainly, he provides citations, including copying material verbatim from his papers. But his theories are original research, and posting his theories here as such violates a basic rule of Wikipedia. I don't think anyone objects to MacDonald adding factual info, like his birthdate, or correcting factual errors. But adding, repeatedly, lengthy paragraphs of information supporting his theories, without any attmept to discuss despite numerous requests, is bad editing. MacDonald is a partisan of the most direct kind, which is why it's better for biography subjects to avoid editing their own articles. Thanks for the kind words about the rebuttal section. I don't like deleting material, but the other criticisms had turned into a Why I'm right section. Since we can't get MacDonald to "play with others", at least we can give him a sandbox of his own. -Willmcw 22:04, 28 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Given the Wikipedia guidelines regarding autobiography I think any edits by MacDonald should be removed until he discusses them in talk. AndyL 22:12, 28 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I don't agree, especially since I don't assume the anon is Kevin B. MacDonald. Sure, he might be, but he could be anybody, even one of us. Sam_Spade (talk · contribs) 23:03, 28 Dec 2004 (UTC)

If he is not MacDonald then he is a liar pretending to be that person, which is a whole other problem, perhaps even more serious. Rather than get into that, we should assume that he is who he says he is, unless there is some reason to believe otherwise. -Willmcw 23:06, 28 Dec 2004 (UTC)

What is the accepted technique for authenticating a Wiki identity as a wider-world identity? Jim Bowery 23:23, 28 Dec 2004 (UTC)

This comes up occasionally when people use celebrity names for their usernames, which is the opposite problem. In any case, the first step is simply to ask, "are you the person you claim to be?" If this were Britney Spears, or some such, the next step would be to ask for an email to be sent from the celebrity's official website, giving validation. That probably wouldn't be necessary here, unless somebody is very skeptical. We can post a note on the IP's talk page, but so far there is no indication that he reads it. If he got a username, that would help too. -Willmcw 23:46, 28 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I see absolutely no reason to doubt this is Kevin MacDonald, and many reasons to believe it is. Jayjg | (Talk) 03:17, 29 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Looking good

Good job, things are looking much cleaner and more readable. Glad to see the politeness here and in the edit summaries too, I think the article is reflecting that progress. Sam_Spade (talk · contribs) 22:00, 28 Dec 2004 (UTC)

As the subject of this page, I have indeed edited it in order to bring some semblance of sanity to it. When I started, it was completely one-sidede: MacDonald is a notorious antisemite and all his theories have been proven wrong. I will continue to edit the page until forced to stop. I can't understand the point of the most recent edit. I had placed the material on Zionism as a strategy to avoid assimilation and intermarriage in the section on assimilation and intermarraige because the thread of the other editors was to imply that Judaism as an ethnically pure group has effectively ceased to exist because of current intermarriage rates in the United States. I repeat, it is only in Western societies that Jews have ever had any tendency to intermarry, and a prime motivation of Zionists was to prevent this by establishing an ethnostate. To place that in a separate section on "MacDonald's Peronal Rebuttals" and then say "MacDonald feels that racial separatism . . ." is ridiculous because the reader completely loses the context and because there are dozens of references supporting this point; it's not a personal prejudice or irrational attitude on my part. Kevin MacDonald

Dr. MacDonald, thanks for joining us on the Talk page. Editing in Wikipedia is not intended to be a confrontational process, and engaging other editors in discussions about errors in the article will help make it the best possible biography. Due to your necessary lack of objectivity on your own life and work, it would be best if you discussed your edits here before adding them to the article. It is your lack of collaboration that has forced us to find other ways of approaching the editing process. While it may not seem ideal, it is fairly standard on Wikipedia to have a criticisms section. Your replies to those criticisms may be valid, but it should be very clear that you are the author of the rebuttal. If you would like to re-write the Personal rebuttal section to suit your preference, then that is what it is there for. But please don't edit the criticisms themselves. -Willmcw 23:59, 28 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Frankly, I do not think that the people who wrote the original article and have been engaged in this have been in the least bit objective. This is why I began writing. So now it's back to what it was before the recent round of edits. I don't mind the removal of the comment citing Slezkine's work, but if it is restored, I insist on providing my viewpoint on the relationship between Western culture and Judaism. And I don't see why the followoing comment by me was removed: (Obviously, intermarriage is not an issue in Israel. Indeed, racial separatism and deep concern about Jewish assimilation and intermarriage in Europe was a prime motivation of many of the early Zionists (reviewed in Separation and Its Discontents, Ch. 5). For example, for Jewish racial theorist Elias Auerbach, Zionism would return Jews “back into the position they enjoyed before the nineteenth century—politically autonomous, culturally whole, and racially pure” (Efron, J. M. (1994). Defenders of the Race: Jewish Doctors and Race Science in Fin-de-Siècle Europe. New Haven: Yale University Press, p. 136)." Or the comment that "moreover, he notes that the leadership of the Jewish community continues to be in the hands of ethnically committed Jews who are strongly opposed to intermarriage." They are certainly germane to the discussion, since the people criticizing me are trying to show that Judaism has no ethnic content. KM

Your comment was removed because you were informed some time ago that you were required to discuss edits on this page rather than implement them unilaterally and you chose to ignore that requirement. AndyL 00:49, 29 Dec 2004 (UTC)

" I repeat, it is only in Western societies that Jews have ever had any tendency to intermarry, and a prime motivation of Zionists was to prevent this by establishing an ethnostate."

Dr. MacDonald, it is my understanding that your focus is on Ashkenazi Jews and not on other Jewish ethnicities as it's been pointed out that Jews are actually quite racially diverse. So, if your focus is on Ashkenazi Jews, then the fact that the rate of intermarriage among Ashkenazi Jews is quite high is a central point. In fact, it is not just in the United States and "the West" that Ashkenazi intermarriage rates are high but in Eastern Europe, in particular Russia and the rest of the ex-Soviet Union and Latin America and wherever Ashkenazis live including Israel (where only a minority of Ashkenazi are) where they are intermarrying with Jews of other ethnicities. So if the rate of intermarriage is high among Ashkenazi Jews in general doesn't that throw a spanner in your claims about Ashkenazi ethnocentricity? If, on the other hand, you claim that Jews in general are ethnocentric, not just Ashkenazi Jews, how do you explain the vast racial diversity within Judaism ie the fact that you have Ashkenazi Jews who look European, Shephardic Jews and Mizrachi Jews who look Arabic, African Jews who look African, South Asian Jews who look South Asian, Chinese Jews who look Chinese. If Jews are ethnocentric how could this occur?AndyL 01:01, 29 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Dr MacDonald, your edit beginning Obviously, intermarriage... was moved, not removed. Since you are now a regular editor here, it would be good if you learned some ofthe norms around here. One is to avoid words like, obviously. Cheers, -Willmcw 01:35, 29 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Now it doesn't make any sense at all. I will try to get it into some kind of shape. I deleted the last paragraph because it in no way reflects my views and, as it was, it implied that this was one of my personal rebuttals. KM