Talk:Lyndon LaRouche
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Berlet/Bellman report is published
This text has been deleted by pro-LaRouche editors:
- "Chip Berlet and Joel Bellman claim that the shift in the NCLC's politics and the change in its internal regime was prompted by a personal crisis in LaRouche's life which led to his having an emotional crisis: + - + - :What happened to cause this dramatic shift? Some say it was a dramatic incident in LaRouche's personal life. In 1972 LaRouche's common-law wife, Carol Schnitzer, left him for a young member of the London NCLC chapter named Christopher White, whom she eventually married. For LaRouche, it was a crushing blow. His first wife Janice had similarly walked out on him a decade earlier, taking with her the couple's young son. This personal event apparently triggered LaRouche's political metamorphosis. LaRouche went into seclusion in Europe, and defectors tell of his suffering a possible nervous breakdown. In the spring of 1973, he returned. His previous conspiratorial inclinations had now grown into a bizarre tapestry weaving together classical conspiracy theories of the 19th century and post-Marxian economics. He began articulating a `psycho-sexual' theory of political organizing. Sexism and homophobia became central themes of the organization's theories.[1]"
This text appears in a published report. It represents material similar to that by several other writers of published material critical of LaRouche. It is not a minority view, it is the majority view. It should not be deleted. We can discuss modifying it here in the discussion page, but unilateral deletions by pro-LaRouche editors is not acceptable behavior in a collective editing process.
Once again I ask that we all stop editing this page and focus on the Political views of Lyndon LaRouche page which is currently locked. Otherwise this page should be locked. --Cberlet 18:50, 20 Jan 2005 (UTC)
- You say that this theory is the "majority view." Then, produce a quote from someone else. This article is becoming a compendium of quotes from Chip Berlet. Weed Harper 21:33, 20 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Weed's latest deletion
Weed, I have reverted your delete of Cberlet's addition. If you read Wikipedia:Cite sources, you'll see that Wikipedia editors are allowed to quote themselves if two conditions apply: (a) they are recognized experts in the field, and (b) they are quoting in the third person from their own publications. And then (c), as always, the publisher must be a reputable one.
Cberlet is a recognized expert. He is quoting from something he wrote in, as I recall, 1999. And Political Research Associates, whether you like them or not, are regarded as reputable. It might interest you to know that I had this confirmed today. I wrote to a respected researcher at the suggestion of another editor (someone not involved in the LaRouche pages) to ask about information on reputable published resources on LaRouche. The answer came back that Chip Berlet and Political Research Associates are highly regarded, and that Dennis King's book is a respected resource too. I had not asked about Berlet, by the way. Weed, may I remind you that you are not allowed to act in a way that suggests promotion of Lyndon LaRouche or his movement.
I agree with Chip and Will that we should concentrate on Political views of, or else ask for unprotection. SlimVirgin 21:38, Jan 20, 2005 (UTC)
- Also, similar claims are made by King in his book: pages 26-31. I would be happy if a quote from King was substituted, or if the claim was summarized. --Cberlet 21:50, 20 Jan 2005 (UTC)
I notice that Slim does not name the "respected researcher." King and Berlet are a team, so if their theories resemble one another, no big surprise. Either way, the theory that LaRouche's political views are all the result of a divorce fails the "original research" test:
"A wikipedia entry (including a part of an article) counts as original research if it proposes ideas, that is:
- It introduces a theory or method of solution, or
- It introduces original ideas, or
- It defines new terms, or
- It provides new definitions of old terms, or
- It purports to refute another idea, or
- It introduces neologisms.
However all of the above may be acceptable content once they have become a permanent feature of the public landscape. A few examples of this include:
- The ideas have been accepted for publication in a peer reviewed journal; or
- The ideas have become newsworthy: they have been repeatedly and independently reported in newspapers or news stories (such as the cold fusion story)." [2]
Weed Harper 22:00, 20 Jan 2005 (UTC)
And Chip Berlet's writing HAS been peer-reviewed, which is why he's been interviewed on network television and published in mainstream newspapers. Political Research Associates is also regarded as a reputable outlet. It therefore does not count as original research. Dennis King's book has become "a permanent feature of the public landscape." The only reason I'm not naming the researcher who spoke highly of Chip Berlet is that I don't want that person to become a target of the Lyndon LaRouche movement. The name was recommended by an experienced editor who has never edited this page. SlimVirgin 22:25, Jan 20, 2005 (UTC)
- Since Berlet's attacks on LaRouche died out in the major press after serving their purpose 15 years ago, I am sure that the LaRouche movement has little interest in him, viewing him only as a mild annoyance. He is, however, a major annoyance to Wikipedia if he is going to attempt to transform encyclopedia articles into essays propounding his idiosyncratic theories. And, it does not impress anyone that you quote anonymous sources in a desperate attempt to boost his credibility. --HK 15:48, 21 Jan 2005 (UTC)
- The source isn't anonymous. It's just you, Weed Harper and C Colden who won't be told. SlimVirgin 15:53, Jan 21, 2005 (UTC)
- Weed Harper: Please do not make major deletions without discussion. You have been asked to focus on the Political Views page so that it can be unlocked. Please try to cooperate with the group process of editing. --Cberlet 03:09, 21 Jan 2005 (UTC)
- Weed and HK--I tried to fix as much as I could after I restored Weed's deletion, but Weed so thoroughly botched up a series of edits that it was almost impossible (using the "history" function) to figure out what typos and red links he had fixed. I did find and fix two names that had garbled leters. I was not trying to undo the legitimate editing of Weed. --Cberlet 17:08, 21 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Berlet quoting Berlet
I will accept quotes from Berlet that have appeared in a "mainstream" publication. On the other hand, if Wikipedia readers want to read Berlet's website, there are abundant links to it in all the LaRouche articles. There is no need to reproduce Berlet's website here. --HK 16:25, 21 Jan 2005 (UTC)
- Many of the article on the official PRA website (not my personal website) are available as printed reports published by PRA.--Cberlet 17:08, 21 Jan 2005 (UTC)