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Do we need all these pictures?

While beginning to add captions to the album covers, it occurs to me do we really need all these pictures. I can see why many albums are on there (Zeppelin and Sabbath) but Celtic Frost don't get mentioned in the text but get an album cover.

I would unlink

  • Image:ToolAenima.jpg|left
  • Image:KyussBluesfortheRedSun.jpg
  • Image:QuietRiotMetalHealthalbumc
  • Image:CelticFrostIntothePandemonium.jpgover.jpg

Comments? Jackliddle 00:46, 22 Nov 2004 (UTC)

  • I think the pictures would be fine if they fit in. The Tool album, for example, is in the middle of a paragraph about Eddie Van Halen and guitar shredding. I've changed that, and tried to add more appropriate pictures. This article needs a lot more work, but it's very late right now... -leigh (φθόγγος) 11:40, Dec 3, 2004 (UTC)

Origin disuputed redux

The references to early usage of the term by Dave Marsh and/or Lester Bangs are precisely the type of probably-apochryphal stories mentioned later in the article. As we've discussed before, an actual reference to such a usage would be grand but is unlikely to appear. I've removed this claim, as well as replacing a paragraph about the Burroughs usage that made little sense as written. Jgm 17:47, 30 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Origin disputed

Quote: "According to one version, it was coined by a critic for Rolling Stone Magazine, who in 1967 said that the music of Jimi Hendrix was "like heavy metal falling from the sky"." This would be in dispute. I searched through the early years of Rolling Stone magazine at our state library and did not find that quote "like heavy metal falling from the sky". I do know however that there is a claim by Chas Chandler that it appeared in a New York times article. Similarly there is no qoute of that term in the New York Times Index 1966-1972. Unless something more substantial can be used to contradict my research, the article should be amended to correct that factual error on Jimi Hendrix. Cheers Iam 02:54, Mar 30, 2004 (UTC)

Double checked 1967 issues of Rolling Stone magazine. Here's the deal: The magazine was first published on November 9, 1967, so it wasn't too difficult to find issues during 1967 as only 3 issues were published for that year (Every fortnight). The first issue (9/11/67) had John Lennon on the front cover (a still from the film How I Won The War), the second (23/11/67) had Tina Turner, the third (14/11/67) had the Beatles and friends (from the Magical Mystery Tour). Issue 4 didn't appear until 20/1/68. So for starters the 1967 date for that quote is wrong. Secondly I cannot find any attribution for that quote between 1968 and 1971. I'm beginning to speculate it's nothing more than fantasy. A check through the New York Times for the years 1965-1975 also did not turn up that claim made by Chas Chandler. This is what's known for sure - It was in definite use by May 1971, in an article published in Creem magazine by Mike Saunders, he uses the term "heavy metal" to describe the music of MC5 and Led Zeppelin in comparison to a new album by Sir Lord Baltimore. Iam 10:50, Apr 1, 2004 (UTC)
I'm convinced that, at least the way it was stated, we had it wrong. I took a stab at an alternate wording. I suppose the whole line could just be removed, but the theory that the first usage of the term came from a rock critic seems pervasive enough that it should at least be mentioned, if not claimed known true. Of course the best thing would be an actual reference. . . Jgm 14:44, 1 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Agreed. If someone can provide a reference to that Rolling Stone quote with an issue number, page number and date to refute my research, it would be most appreciated. So far all leads have turned up blank. Iam 01:27, Apr 2, 2004 (UTC)

No mention of the new york dolls, will david johanson ever get the credit he deserves. Someone should really explain why the vocals in heavy metal can be hard to understand. I would gladly but I don't know why they are. They should also explain the different singing styles and why they aren't just all clean vocals.

--Arm

Real metal doesn't have rapping vocals or DJs. Just that nu-metal crap that survives only because of MTV. Nu-metals is just a fad thats almost died out and not as established style of metal as say, power metal. --Arm

I've been adding material to nu metal, and it occured to me that perhaps an article at metal (music) would be a good kind of index. It would descibe the evolution of heavy metal and newer brands of it, and talk about how the more traditional styles of the '80s etc. have influenced the newer bands, and vice versa (eg. Metallica's song for Mission Impossible: simplier guitars in verses etc.).

It would need to talk about:

  • Heavy metal (music) as a start point
  • the progression of metal through the influence of hip-hop; introduction of rap and other vocal styles, and DJs
  • crossover, rap metal, rap rock, etc.
  • the use of distorted guitar in pop and techno; can be attributed to influence of rock and heavy metal

-- Sam


Shouldn't Hair metal be covered or at least linked to? AxelBoldt 06:43 Mar 3, 2003 (UTC)

The existing text seems to call hair metal "glam metal." Which perhaps is a more neutral name for it, but I added a line pointing to the hair metal article to that section. -- IHCOYC

There doesnt seem to be a category that covers bands like Suicidal Tenencies and Sepultura - is it thrash? speed metal? Htaccess

Both bands fir under the thrash metal category, though Suicidal Tendencies were also regarded as a "crossover" band (between hardcore punk and metal), while Sepultura are sometimes considered a death metal band. Thrash metal and speed metal are synonyms -- Jim Regan 03:24, 22 Sep 2003 (UTC)
Actually thrash and speed metal are not synonyms. A common misconception, possibly stemming from the fact Metallica evolved from thrash to speed. Sepultura covered a lot of styles, from death-thrash, to straight up thrash, to 'post-thrash'/'groove metal' to now hardcore.

The author says the following about the word "love": "...compare the entire song list of Iron Maiden's many albums which will offer not one use of the word to the knowledge of this contributor..." I guess this is a memory slip of the author during the typing since they do have the song "wasting love" on the album "Fear of the Dark", and also on two live albums: "a real dead one" and "live in donington". This obvously denies that sentence. But, to make things clear, this is not a heartbreaking sweet (i.e. commercial) love song, it is a very dark and soul-tearing song that dennounces and critics the hypocrisy seen in human relations, so the author's point is sustained in essence. By the way, this is an intense and well written article about Metal. Thanks ! congrats, Chuck

Great article. One substantive comment: Calling punk rock a branch of heavy metal needs some support. Punk's stylized primitivism and DIY ethic contradicts heavy metal. Punkers certainly hated Motley Crue.

I agree. Tuf-Kat 07:46, 30 Sep 2003 (UTC)
I'd say what was meant is that modern punk owes as much to heavy metal as to the original punk bands, though the opposite is also true. There's certainly been a lot of cross-pollination between the genres, though more with hardcore punk than "regular" punk.
There are several genres which are the direct result of mixing punk and metal; Motorhead and Thin Lizzie were considered acceptable to many British punks; NWOBHM bands played punk influenced riffs mixed with metal influenced lead guitar - Iron Maiden are probably the best example of this; thrash was originally NWOBHM played faster, but Metallica and Slayer took on board punk influences for their second releases, and became metal bands it was OK for punks to like (Green Day play snippets of Metallica live, Sum 41 play Slayer etc); grindcore mixed death metal with punk - Napalm Death's best known song is their cover of Dead Kennedy's "Nazi Punks Fuck Off"; grunge was started by a bunch of punk bands who also listened to Black Sabbath; Black Flag and Discharge started off as punk bands, but grew their hair long, and started playing music that sounded more like metal; Ministry was an electronic "band" started by a punk, who came back to punk and moved on to metal; Sepultura's early audience consisted mostly of skinheads; they've gone on to work with Jello Biafra, and Chaos A.D. sounds more like a hardcore punk record than a metal album etc. etc. -- Jim Regan 23:38, 30 Sep 2003 (UTC)

The beginning of the article claims that heavy metal lasted twenty years. This could maybe use additional clarification. Just to pick one example, why is nu-metal not included? (I'm not saying this should be changed, just that the reasons for that time-frame, even if generally accepted, should be explained).

I removed the bit about not understanding the influence of Bach on heavy metal meaning that one does not understand Bach in general because this doesn't make any sense to me. If any cares to articulate a defense of this claim, feel free and we can discuss it. Some of the other stuff about the relationship between heavy metal and classical music struck me as POV, relying upon the idea that classical music is uniquely able to express humanistic ideas and that heavy metal is sole modern exponent of this ability. Many, such as myself, disagree with this and don't know how to articulate the idea in a neutral way.

There are some other opinions in quotes which are uncredited. These have been deleted barring future attribution.Tuf-Kat 07:46, 30 Sep 2003 (UTC)

I don't get the Bach thing at all. He did a lot of chromatic stuff, and "Fugue in Dm" gets played a lot by metal guitarists, but I'd be clutching at straws to come up with any reason for singling out Bach - the main motif from "In the Hall of the Mountain King" could easily be a Slayer riff, for example, and "Flight of the Bumblebee" has the sort of descending chromatic run that many metal bands use frequently. -- Jim Regan 23:38, 30 Sep 2003 (UTC)

This curious text appeared in the article body:

<style> hr { display: inline; -moz-box-sizing: border-box; margin: 0 0.1% 0 0.1%; font-size: -moz-initial !important; } hr:before { white-space: pre; content: "\A"; } hr:after { white-space: pre; content: "\A"; } </style>

It appears to be in a programming language that I do not understand. It displays as raw source code in Mozilla 1.3.1. I deleted it so that it does not appear in the article itself, but I am preserving it here in case it does something important or needful that ought to be restored. -- Smerdis of Tlön 16:04, 30 Sep 2003 (UTC)

It's CSS, and shouldn't have been there. -- Jim Regan 23:38, 30 Sep 2003 (UTC)

This thing had lots of good contributions but no structure; I've sectionized and made a first attempt at a framework. I didn't delete anything and at this point haven't added much, so some areas make more sense than others, and there is still some repetition. Perhaps someone can move the album cover graphics to more sensible places in the text. Jgm 15:47, 28 Oct 2003 (UTC)

I think a proper article and definition for True Metal needs to be given. I removed the link to "True metal", as the article linked only refers to elemental metals and not to music at all. -- Zarggg 06:15, 26 Jun 2004 (UTC)

The Beatles Yer Blues

I believe The Beatles song "Yer Blues" should be added to The Beatles list of songs that influenced Heavy Metal. Sure, Helter Skelter has the riffs, the drumming, and especially the bass guitar, but most of its Heavy Metal acclaim is due to Charles Manson fascination with it. Yer Blues as performed by the Dirty Mac (John Lennon, Eric Clapton, Keith Richards, and Mitch Mitchell from The Jimi Hendrix Experience) on the Rolling Stone's Rock N Roll Circus is definitely one of the first Heavy Metal songs. Some of the bootlegs of the band rehearsing the song are amazing. You got Lennon's bluesy, depressing song with lines like "The eagle picks my eye, the worm he licks my bone, I feel so suicidal just like Dylan's Mr Jones." Lennon's voice is angst driven and you can really feel him yelling, then you got Clapton's awesome guitar solos, Keith Richard's amazing bass line that is both bluesy but able to find a melody, and of course Mitch Mitchell's drumming is heavy.

"Yer Blues" and "Helter Skelter" were never released as singles and didn't appear to the public until The White Album came out in December 1968. Rock 'n' Roll Circus was recorded on December 10 & 11, 1968, shelved and never released to the public until October 15, 1996. On the other hand, Iron Butterfly's debut Heavy was released in October 1967, in July 1968 they released In-A-Gadda-Da-Vida. Steppenwolf's "Born to be Wild" came out as a single on July 13, 1968, so they predate the Beatles and Rock 'n' Roll Circus. Led Zeppelin's "Communication Breakdown" was recorded in October 1968 and released as a single on March 10, 1969. The band Earth changed their name to Black Sabbath in January 1969. I am yet to be convinced that the Beatle songs mentioned so far had an impact in the creation of "Heavy metal". The chronology just doesn't add up. Iam 11:13, Apr 1, 2004 (UTC)

Shouldn't we add a link to Grindcore in the genre table? I'm not doing it myself because I'm somewhat new here and don't know if this has already been debated, but if there's no objections I think we should; I know grind is not strictly metal, but it's close enough (at least as much as nu metal, IMHO) and would be useful to those learning about the genre. Lets not be genre purists, I say. Thrash sure wouldn't be what it is without the punk influences, and yet I don't see many questioning thrash's "metalness". MikeCapone Jan 22, 2004, 00:50 (UTC).

Mike: Go for it. Being new is no excuse! Jgm 01:14, 23 Jan 2004 (UTC)
I agree, as long as you add it to all the pages that have the table (i.e. everything currently linked to from within the table). Tuf-Kat 01:17, Jan 23, 2004 (UTC)
To clarify: the point of being selective in including genres in the table is to not let the table get out of control in size, not to specify which genres are "metal enough" to be considered. That would, of course, be a violation of Wikipedia's NPOV policy. Tuf-Kat 01:19, Jan 23, 2004 (UTC)
Alright, I will. Hopefully this will lead a bit more traffic to the Grindcore page and encourage people to work on it, because right now it is lagging behind the other heavy metal pages in quality. MikeCapone Jan 23, 2004, 03:54 (UTC)
Well, I did it but when I only had a couple to do I realized that not all the tables on the pages of the sub-genres were the same. Some are missing some genre; I'll go over all of them later this week to make sure they are all consistent with each other. MikeCapone Jan 23, 2004, 04:30 (UTC)

These are the trends currently identified on the timeline of trends in music. I thought I'd collect them here to see if anybidy wants to comment on the selection. Tuf-Kat 00:23, Feb 3, 2004 (UTC)

1968 in music

Music of the United States
Blue Cheer begins recording, and become legends of the American proto-heavy metal scene

1969 in music

Music of the United Kingdom
Led Zeppelin's first album, Led Zeppelin, is released; it is an enormously influential psychedelic blues-rock

1970 in music

Music of the United Kingdom
T. Rex's Ride a White Swan is considered the beginning of true glam rock
Black Sabbath begins recording a dark and gloomy form of heavy metal, laying the groundwork for the genre's intense diversification by the late 80s

1971 in music

Music of the United Kingdom
Black Sabbath's Paranoid and Led Zeppelin's Four Symbols are enormously influential albums in the development of heavy metal
Music of the United States
Funkadelic releases Maggot Brain, an early fusion of soul, funk and heavy metal; releases from Roberta Flack (Roberta Flack & Donny Hathaway), Isaac Hayes (Black Moses) and Sly & the Family Stone (There's a Riot Goin' On) similarly influence the development of a more pop-oriented funk and soul
Alice Cooper creates a distinctive kind of glam and heavy metal-influenced shock rock

1972 in music

Music of the United Kingdom
David Bowie releases Ziggy Stardust, which marks the height of glam rock and is an important influence on the development of punk rock; similarly influential albums by Lou Reed (Transformer) and Mott the Hoople (All the Young Dudes) are also released
Deep Purple releases Machine Head, one of the first pure heavy metal albums

1975 in music

Music of the United Kingdom
Queen's "Bohemian Rhapsody" and its accompanying music video revolutionize the possibilities of progressive pop

1976 in music

International trends
Hard rock and heavy metal bands like Aerosmith (Rocks), AC/DC (High Voltage), Blue Öyster Cult (Agents of Fortune) and Judas Priest (Sin After Sin) release landmark albums that gain unprecedented success for heavy metal

1978 in music

International trends
Important releases cement the sound of heavy metal and begin to move it towards the mainstream; this includes albums from Blue Öyster Cult (Some Enchanted Evening), Van Halen (Van Halen, Judas Priest (Stained Class, Killing Machine), Ace Frehley (Ace Frehley), Rush (Hemispheres) and Styx (Pieces of Eight)

1981 in music

Music of the United States
Venom's Welcome to Hell is the beginning of black metal

1983 in music

Music of the United States
Several bands important in the future development and popularization of thrash metal form, including Megadeth, Metallica and the Red Hot Chili Peppers; Metallica's Kill 'Em All was especially important, defining speed metal
heavy metal begins its run of mainstream chart success with hair metal and pop bands like Mötley Crüe (Shout at the Devil), Whitesnake (Saints & Sinners), Van Halen (Diver Down), W.A.S.P. (Animal (F**k like a Beast))), Quiet Riot (Metal Health) and Def Leppard (Pyromania) being most popular.
Suicidal Tendencies fuses hardcore punk with heavy metal

1984 in music

International trends
Thrash-influenced bands like Dokken (Tooth and Nail), Celtic Frost (Morbid Tales), Hellhammer (Apocalyptic Raids 1990 A.D.), Mercyful Fate (Don't Break the Oath) and Helloween (Helloween) come to dominate the European metal scene
Music of the United States
Stryper's The Yellow and Black Attack is the first Christian metal album and sets the stage for later Christian artists in punk, hip hop and other genres
Releases from Run-D.M.C. and the Beastie Boys begin fusing hip hop and rock and roll/heavy metal
Van Halen's "Jump" is the first heavy metal song to top Billboard's pop charts

1985 in music

International trends
Aerosmith begins its return to popular acceptance with Done with Mirrors

1987 in music

International trends
Death's Scream Bloody Gore helps to define the burgeoning death metal scene
Music of the United Kingdom
Napalm Death forms grindcore
Music of the United States
Guns 'N Roses releases Appetite for Destruction and dominate the American music scene for the year with an arena rock and thrash metal-influenced sound; in Europe, Celtic Frost's (Into the Pandemonium) influence and sales peak

1989 in music

International trends
Black metal emerges out of thrash with bands like Anthrax (State of Euphoria) and Sepultura (Beneath the Remains)
Music of the United States
Bands like the Red Hot Chili Peppers (Mother's Milk), Faith No More (The Real Thing) and Fishbone (Truth and Soul) bring funk metal to its commercial pinnacle. Many of these bands, along with Anthrax, Ice-T and others also fuse hardcore hip hop with thrash metal and similar influences

1990 in music

International trends
Paradise Lost emerges at the forefront of the doom metal scene
Music of the United States
Hip hop and indie rock begin to influence metal, with pivotal releases by Primus (Frizzle Fry), Jane's Addiction (Ritual de lo Habitual), Anthrax (Persistence of Time), Sisters of Mercy (Vision Thing), Pantera (Cowboys from Hell) and Megadeth (Rust in Peace) revitalizing the genre

1991

International trends
A distinctively Scandinavian death metal scene emerges, especially in Norway at first, soon extending to Sweden and Finland with bands like Entombed (Clandestine), Amorphis (Dismet of Soul) and Therion (Beyond Sanctorum)

1992

International trends
Kyuss (Blues for the Red Sun) and Monster Magnet (Spine of God) help invent stoner metal
Music of the United States
Rage Against the Machine debuts an energetic fusion of heavy metal, punk rock and hip hop

1993

International trends
Radiohead (Pablo Honey), Stereolab (Transient Random Noisebursts with Announcements) and Tool (Undertow) release critically acclaimed debuts showcasing a new sound in hard rock and heavy metal

1995

International trends
Power metal begins to break into the mainstream in continental Europe, with bands like Stratovarius (Fourth Dimension) and Tad Morose (Sender of Thoughts) being popular
Beck (Odelay), Tool (Aenima), Sepultura (Roots) and Korn (Life Is Peachy) release metal-influenced albums that dominate the year's sound in popular music

2001

Music of the United States
Important nu metal releases from System of a Down (Toxicity) and Tool (Lateralus) define the burgeoning scene; Linkin Park's Hybrid Theory is the top-selling album of the year in the United States.
Neither System of a Down nor Tool are nu metal. This is by the bands' own admission, and also technically they're completely different in essence from nu-metal. Main themes in nu metal are existential angst and helpless agression against society; SoaD's lyrics and themes are socio-critical on a political level, Tool's themes are deliberately cryptic. This reflects in the character of the music itself; both bands only real relationship to nu metal is the level of commercial success they've been having concurrently with the nu metal explosion. A better description of System of a Down would be crossover metal, or as the band's page has it eclectic metal.--Egregius 17:23, 5 Jul 2004 (UTC)
Agreed - neither of them are nu metal. Simplistically, nu metal can be defined as having aspects of rap, which neither of those bands have. And Tool has been around since the early 90s, so they could hardly be considered to have contributed to the "burgeoning" scene in this manner. AdamW13 06:55, 30 Jul 2004 (UTC)

While trying to find where White Zombie fit into the heavy metal heiarchy, I searched for Industrial. I eventually found it under Alternative Metal but I noticed that alt-metal is not found in every instance of the table, although it is in a couple. Is the table not a boilerplate entry then? Could it please be updated to include this importance faction of the heavy metal universe? TimothyPilgrim 02:47, Feb 27, 2004 (UTC)

The table should be the same in all the articles in which it appears. Feel free to fix it! Tuf-Kat 07:35, Feb 27, 2004 (UTC)
I created a new MediaWiki message for the seriesbox: Template:Heavy metal music, all you need to do is include {{msg:heavy_metal_music}} in the article and the article is transcluded across all pages when changes are made. No need to update each individual page! See the electronic music series and other examples. --Lexor|Talk 09:23, 27 Feb 2004 (UTC)
Thanks! That's exactly what it needed. MikeCapone feb 27, 2004.
That's exactly what I was hoping someone could do! TimothyPilgrim 19:26, Feb 27, 2004 (UTC)

The Metal navigation bar

How one adds article to the metal navigation bar (the floating "table" with links to different metal articles in Wiki)? MathKnight 18:11, 11 Mar 2004 (UTC)

If you would like to add another link to the table, please mention it at MediaWiki talk:Heavy metal music. To add the table to another article, type {{msg:heavy_metal_music}}

Thanx. MediaWikiTalk:Heavy metal music. MathKnight 13:40, 12 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Footer?

I'm inclined to prefer this series as a footer, such as the one at User:TUF-KAT/Fun with tables. Any thoughts? Tuf-Kat 08:15, Mar 28, 2004 (UTC)

There are dozens, maybe hundreds, of such lists all across the Internet. Most are of no interest to anyone other than their creator. If metal-rules.com is a particularly useful or well-known site, link to their main page. Tuf-Kat 02:00, Mar 29, 2004 (UTC)

Metal-Rule's list is the most informative I've come across. It is not just a mere list, there are also comments about the top 10 albums, and there's something to learn from there, I believe.

Iron Butterfly

Shouldn't Iron Butterfly get a little more notice than just a mention of their album title? I don't know much about metal in general, but I thought that they were one of the major early bands. I think I remember reading that Doug Ingles of Iron Butterfly had classical organ training. Can anyone confirm that? If true, seems like that would be worth mentioning in the section on classical influence in heavy metal. Isomorphic 23:38, 11 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Weasel Phrase

"Some would call the period an era of "selling-out", in which bands like Blue Öyster Cult achieved moderate mainstream success and the Los Angeles hair metal scene began finding pop audiences, especially in the 1980s."

Who were these "some" who call it a period of "selling-out"?

Attempt at alleviating bias towards US bands

I proposed a few edits at the beginning and in the middle of "History". It seemed overly biased towards bands of US origin and "hair metal", whereas many metal gurus (such as BNR, of the very useful reference www.bnrmetal.com) would put the NWOBHM at the center of the development of the late 70s/early 80s. Even granting a bias towards a US audience, NWOBHM bands like Iron Maiden have sold millions of albums in the US, and it seemed unbalanced to have a first paragraph that highlights the L.A. hair scene (half-admitting that it was most relevant in the 80s, although the sentence begins with "1970s") without mentioning the mixing of punk and metal in the NWOBHM, a product of the late 1970s (as correctly stated in the NWOBHM encyclopedia entry). Also the phrase about "coming full circle" gave the impression that Motley Crue was some kind of "culmination" of heavy metal, whereas it was just one branch of a much greater phenomenon.

I wish BNR would help out!

Grand Funk Railroad

You can't be serious in putting Grand Funk Railroad under "key artists" for heavy metal... right?

well, I didn't put it there originally. I agree it is barely metal (if it is at all) but you deleted a whole description of noise vrs. technique, as well as a image of quiet riot. Sam [Spade] 22:15, 15 Jun 2004 (UTC)
Yes, I noticed about Quiet Riot, thanks for restoring it before I did. (I would actually dispute that images of Quiet Riot and Tool are relevant, but this edit was unintentional and I'm sorry.). I know newness doesn't count as an excuse for misediting, so I won't use it.
About the description of noise vs. technique, that was not a mistake: to me the whole little paragraph seemed to be connected to GFR, and the paragraph was in any case out of place under "key artists". I would delete it again, but I guess you would put it back again. I should also add, in general this is an amazingly well-written and comprehensive entry.
Actually newness is the best excuse I can think of ;) I don't intend to "edit war", or "revert duel", or whatever. If I did, I would just ignore the page for 6 months or so, and then re-insert grand-funk ;). I was also dubious of the usefulness of mentioning grand funk, but I listened to some during this time, and found it vaguely "metal-like", kinda in the same way jimi hendrix is. There are other, similar bands (the WHO, Pink Floyd, etc..) who provided patrimony for modern metal. How to illustrate this best I don't know. Noise vrs. technique is still an issue, w grunge/garage in opposition to "classicly influenced" / symphonic metal. I know this concept can be better expressed than by referencing grand funk, but I also think some mention of metal pregenitors would be ok too. Sam [Spade] 00:24, 16 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Pseuds Corner

I'm thinking of submitting the Classical influence section of this article to Private Eye... Andy Mabbett 22:13, 15 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Hair metal

In reading through this, the biggest point of contention I have is that Guns 'N' Roses is lumped into "hair metal" ... While certainly they broke out in the middle of it, and came out of the L.A. scene, and the "Welcome to the Jungle" video featured Axl's most glam look ... their music is nowhere near the likes of Ratt, Poison, etc...

Further, the comment about "hair metal" is rather disparaging, and painted with too broad a brush. I think it should be acknowledged that "hair metal" is a more deragatory term, and that "pop metal" may be a better description.

And the early stuff, such as Motley Crue, Def Leppard, Dokken, Dio, the Scorpions, etc... have plenty of artistic ability. It's baloney, really, to say that this stuff is just pure homogenized crap. ... However, it is true that later 80s stuff clearly was taken over by every two-bit band trying to capitalize on the trend -- Tora Tora, Trixter, and all that junk. In my opinion, this is no different than when grunge was co-opted by an endless stream of boring copycats that continues to this day.

I hope someone with more time, energy, and knowledge than I do will re-write some of this stuff, because I believe it's an unfair representation.

--AdamW13 16:58, 18 Jun 2004 (UTC)

I think G'n'R is a whole lot like Ratt and Motley Crue, especially early work by all three bands. I do think that for the purposes of the (as you say) broad strokes that any huge-scope entry like this must be painted, G'n'R is much, much closer to Ratt and Motley Crue than to e.g. Iron Maiden or Black Sabbath, i.e. within the grander scheme of "heavy metal" they're all hair metal.
As you say "hair metal" was originally derogatory, but then again, so was the name "Big Bang theory": it stuck, and that's that whether you want it or not. At least all Americans I talked to about it know the term "hair metal", so it seems reasonable to use it in the entry. I think it would be much harder for most readers to name an example of a "pop metal" band, but this is more an issue for the List of heavy metal genres.

--Marcus B 18:48, 18 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Sorry, I still totally disagree about GNR ... they are not like Ratt and Motley Crue, even when painting with broad strokes. They broke the mold. They are in no way "hair metal" within the grander scheme. Having long hair doesn't make you "hair metal" - and I still maintain that that monicker is unnecessarily deragatory and dismissive of many of the bands that are being lumped into it.
I really feel as though the authors of this entry doesn't understand the genre.

AdamW13 06:49, 30 Jul 2004 (UTC)

"Mainstream Popularity"

This is a segment of the taxobox (I don't really know why, but there it is). It had a claim that heavy metal was sporadically popular in the US but consistently and hugely popular in Japan, europe, etc. I don't buy it, and have simplified the statement (which again, I think is silly for a genre as fragmented, long-lived, and diverse as this one). It's possible my simplification is too simple -- we can discuss here if needed. Jgm 13:34, 17 Jul 2004 (UTC)

      • yes but it is mainstream popularity not just popularity.like black metal's mainstream popularity=none. im going to revert that one for now...
        • Not following you. The statement that "Hair Metal" is the only widely followed branch of HM in the US is simply wrong. Jgm 12:27, 20 Aug 2004 (UTC)
          • I agree with Jgm on this one. There's a large following of death metal and power metal in my state, let alone other parts of the country. Zarggg 04:54, 21 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Hard rock or heavy metal?

I believe the article needs a clear line of demarcation between hard rock and heavy metal. This of course is based on my believe that there is a difference between the two. I would point to Black Sabbath's darker work as being the first heavy metal - the song "Black Sabbath" being a prime example. What distinguishes it, in my view, from hard rock is firstly, the lyrical content. Hard rock tends not to concern itself with "heavy" subject matter eg: death, philosophy, Satanic themes, etc. nor have the same obsession with melodic chromaticism and tritone intervals. While hard rock does use the tritone, it uses it much more in passing, as the "blue note" rather than a melodic staple. That is basically the line I would draw.

Thoughts?

--Thedangerouskitchen 14:26, 12 Sep 2004 (UTC)


Distinction of Rock influence vs. Actual Metal bands

I just noticed that some refernces to earlier rock bands seem to imply that the bands are actually part of the heavy metal genre by referring to them as proto-metal, It might help to more directly acknowledge that The first Metal bands, in current thought, would be Black Sabbath and possibly L.Z. Also, there seems to be a lack of information about power metal

Woohoo

Woohoo, please read about our NPOV policy. Your version of the history is far from neutral. Tuf-Kat 17:19, Oct 24, 2004 (UTC)

More Subgener suggestions

As sub-geners wouldn't Prong and Voivod be called nu metal. I also tought of calling them Liquid Metal because they are sort of different.

Queen

In this article, I see no mention made of the band Queen. They're not one of the purest or premier "metal" acts, but the energy and sheer talent of their live shows truly did innovate what the standard was for live music events and influenced a generation of guitarists (Slash and Steve Clark) and especially frontmen (David Lee Roth, Axl Rose, George Michael, James Hetfield, Joe Elliot,endless list.) Also, their injection of humor was rather novel as well.

I'm a real newbie and have very little article experience, so i wouldn't dare try to fix this, but I'm hoping maybe a veteran Wikipedian can give this act a nod in the article, as I believe any expert will agree they deserve, at the least, just a mention.

IMO there is little need for this. Whereas Queen, especially in their 1973-1978 years, did a lot of stuff that bordered on being heavy metal or perhaps even crossed the border, they have never been truly considered a metal band. They have had a wide influence, yes, and even influenced a number of metal bands, but on the whole their influence on metal has been mostly marginal. If any mention of Queen has to be made at all, it should IMO be related to their influence on the power metal subgenre with all of its bombastic anthems. Then again, this would maybe be more aptly fitting on the entry for power metal. Joost 02:04, 24 Jan 2005 (UTC)

"Hair Metal"

Hey, I cleaned up the usage of the perjorative term "hair metal" while still keeping it in the article. It's a POV term that infers that the band has style but lacks substance- not true of all bands. I've also heard Van Halen described as "hair metal," so the definitions of it can be wide-reaching. However, I left it in the article, still somewhat prominently, as it is a widely used phrase by the general public. CinnamonCinder 00:45, 5 Dec 2004 (UTC)

List of classic metal songs

I removed this list. Such a list is somewhat unencyclopedic (it doesn't belong in this article, at least. perhaps on subgenre pages), but my chief objection is that it will be utterly impossible to achieve consensus on a list like this. -leigh (φθόγγος) 01:53, Dec 28, 2004 (UTC)

If I had noticed its addition, I would have done the same. Thanks. Tuf-Kat

Infobox

I must say I am a bit bothered by all the cluttering of genres in the infobox. From my point of view, because the number of self-acclaimed subgenres in the metal world is tremendous (e.g. Rhapsody's Symphonic Hollywood Metal or whatever they called it), and because the whole point of the infobox is to provide a quick overview, it may be a good thing to only mention those genres that are (more or less) universally acknowledged.

I will edit the page in the following way.

Subgenres ->

  • Traditional (a.k.a. 'Classic' metal)
  • Avant-garde metal
  • Black metal
  • Christian metal (strictly speaking not a genre, rather a subsubculture within the metal subculture, but worthy of a mention I would say)
  • Death metal
  • Doom metal
  • Folk metal
  • Goth metal
  • Hair metal (which is disputed to be metal by some, but still worth a mention as subgenre I'd say)
  • Neoclassical metal
  • Power metal
  • Progressive metal
  • Speed metal
  • Thrash metal

Fusion genres:

  • Industrial metal (mix of industrial and metal)
  • Metalcore (mix of hardcore and metal)
  • Grindcore (form between hardcore and death metal)
  • Sludge, stoner (roughly a mix of psychedelic rock, hardcore and doom metal)
  • Nu-metal (a mix of alternative and metal)
  • Alternative metal (ditto, I'm not sure if the term is widespread enough to warrant a mention, however)
  • Rap-metal (mix of rap and metal)

Regional scenes ->

  • Gothenburg metal
  • NWOBHM
  • Bay area thrash
  • Norwegian black metal
  • plus maybe German power metal and Swedish death metal (the first wave, that is, Entombed & co.)

Nonsense genres that IMO should be removed:

  • True metal: yeah, we all know Manowar call themselves that, but besides power metal or classic metal with a lot of swords and silly fantasy lyrics I can't really see any stylistical traits. Especially musically this genre almost entirely coincides with power and classic metal.
  • War metal: according to the link, this either refers to Australian War Metal, the music of Bolt Thrower, or to the genre 'Battle Metal'. Not an widely established sub-genre.
  • Circus metal: in my 12 years of listening to metal, I have never encountered this term a single time either.

Vedic metal: never heard of, and there isn't even a link.

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