Talk:Alternative hip-hop

Alternative vs. Underground: Proposal

Alternative hip hop is only a subgenre of hip hop music. Underground hip hop is a subculture of hip hop, but is also commonly used to refer a category of hip hop encompassing unsigned/independent/local hip hop artists.

Here is my proposal to settle this. If most agree with me then let's reorganise into two articles as follows...

Definition of Alternative hip hop

Alternative hip hop is a genre of hip hop that differs from the mainstream. Mainstream hip hop is commonly generalised as superficial and materialistic. Alternative hip hop artists strive to create music with artistic merit. Lyrical topics are broad and often positive.

Artists

• Freestyle Fellowship
• Abstract Rude
• Aceyalone
• De La Soul
• Dr. Octagon
• Common
• The Roots
• Kanye West (one might say he defected from alternative to mainstream, another might say he blurred the line between the two by becoming a popular alternative artist)
• MF Doom
• Talib Kweli
• Mos Def
• Fort Minor (similar case to Kanye West)

Definition of Underground hip hop

Underground hip hop is a subculture of hip hop. To most people, underground means unsigned or independent of the mainstream. This definition refers not only to music, but also ideals, beliefs and political views.

Underground hip hop is also used to describe a genre that usually includes any unsigned/independent hip hop artists. These artists usually fit into the alternative hip hop genre, but can also be nerdcore or emo rap, among others.

It should also be noted that Underground hip hop as a genre is more often applied to west coast Alternative hip hop artists than east coast Alternative hip hop artists.

Cultural Elements

Although underground hip hop is part of hip hop culture, there are some defining elements, including:

• "Backpacker" clothing style, as one example
• Crossover with metal/emo/punk culture
• Political views - often include anti-Bush sentiment, as well as hippie and environmentalist views

Entertheinferno 05:39, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

Your Feedback

Provide any feedback you have after this line and remember to sign your post.

underground hip hop a redirect

This shouldn't be a redirect, as theyre sepereate classifications. For example, South Park Mexican was underground for many years, even though he offered non-alternative gangsta rap, and Common could be called a non-underground alternative rapper. Anyone wanna help me create this new page?--Urthogie 13:11, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

I think I agree, but I would have a really hard time drawing the lines between "underground" or "alternative" or "mainstream/major label" artists, specifically those from the early 90's. Does "underground" specifically mean "non-major label," or does it refer to a hip hop sub-culture, or does it merely mean that the artist doesn't sell all that well? I don't think there are any resources that aren't too pov for an "underground hip hop" entry. Perhaps the Alternative Hip Hop and Underground Hip Hop entries could redirect to an Alternative/Underground Hip Hop Entry providing many concepts of "alternative" and "underground", which would also underscore how alt. hip hop influenced contemporary underground hip hop artists, and that the vocabulary has simplied changed because of the increasing commercialism and decreasing variety in the mainstream hip hop industry. Dontplaytheirgame 15:25, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

Underground hip hop can refer to two things. A)Artists who are not yet signed to a major label, but want to be signed(aka unsigned heat). B)Two distinct subcultures in hip hop that pride themselves on being unsigned to a major label: hardcore rappers who pride themselves on being too hardcore for public consumption and indie rappers who pride themselves on being too true to the culture and unique for public consumption.

Alternative hip hop refers to artists who do not embody the mainstream musical approach. They can be underground or signed.--Urthogie 15:31, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

This articles is littered with problems concerning facts.

I think you're going to have some major problems making this an article worthy of Wikipedia. From the start, there's even dispute as to the definition of 'alternative hip hop', and because of this most of the references would probably be POV. Is there a definitive authority on what constitutes 'alternative hip hop'? If not, maybe the page should redirect.--Alex 18:08, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

Alex, it actually is possible to write pages on ambiguous terms, wherein each similar meaning is addressed.--Urthogie 18:22, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

Well, alternative hiphop. This was a pretty ok article but you need to remember to compare the rap-scene of the day of those older records to say why it classifies as alternative. There is so much independent rap out there and their all different so it seems a little crazy to put them all under one label without having a damn good reason. Heres some more names worth mentioning; Rhymesayers; Atmosphere (the guys have sold a lot of records), J-live (if Mos-Def, Talib Kweli and Common qualify, then he does)

Tracing down influences would also be great, especially in validating the facts. There is nothing like an absolute fact in this genre, it hasn't been historized as for example rock so every statement needs to be called for and explained. A hell of a job isn't it... - Maucca

underground hip hop (another) redirect

I have a few issues with this article.

First and foremost, the introduction "Alternative hip hop or Underground rap is a style of hip hop music distinguished by artists who either chose or are simply not able to break into the commercial hip hop scene. Positive lyrics are often a hallmark of alternative hip hop, which detract from the materialistic and sexually fueled lyrics of mainstream hip hop." This is an overly opinionated view of the entire hip-hop genre. I don't define any of the alternative hip-hop I listen to as having 'positive lyrics.' On the contrary, most alternative hip-hop just have lyrics that are alternative to the current rap scene. These lyrics have always been very diverse including, but not limited to politics and sociological issues.

Next, alternative hip-hop has just about as much to do with commerciallity as 'alternative rock.' One could argue that alternative rock artists are just as popular, or more popular than traditional rockers. The same can be said of alternative hip-hop. Kanye West, The Fugees and the Black Eyed Pease come specifically to mind. As to my first point above, their lyrics are not all 'positive.' These examples are also as popular or more popular than many so called 'successful' hip-hop artists. The turn of the millenium has given rise to many 'alternative hip-hop' artists that have had huge mainstream success, such as the Gorillas, and the projects of MF Doom and Danger Mouse.

My next gripe is a very major one. Nowhere in this article should there be a section for 'genres related to alternative hip-hop.' The idea is just absurd. Most genres are all interconnected, and large grey areas separate them. 'Neo soul' as it is described here lists artists that are combining many genres, including hip-hop, R&B, soul. Why isn't alternative rock, Neo-metal, and Rapcore music listed here? 311, (hed) P.E., Nonpoint and other countless rock bands have been hugely influenced by alternative hip-hop, and have just as much in common with it as Boyz II Men.

Really, whoever wrote this article is trying really hard to describe an area of popular culture that has been badly defined, and here is no exception.

I agree with your comments-- this article seems to be trying to push Alternative hip hop as something that "redeems" hip hop, as if its not ok to be talking about girls and partying. I plan on doing a complete overhaul of it once I get some other tasks done. Feel free to help in bringing it to a neutral point of view. Peace, --Urthogie 20:28, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

I'd like to add; the definitions of 'underground' and 'alternative' are completely wrong in this article. First of all, Underground isn't a sub-genre on it's own, (although many people will argue that a lot of underground rappers follow a certain style of rapping, and therefore making a good reason for a wiki page on it) all rappers that belong to independent labels or less-famous labels are underground, meaning non-mainstream, not meaning that they all belong to the same sub-genre. Also, most horrorcore rap and most of Chicago's underground rap does not fit into the descriptions of 'alternative' yet both of them are mostly undergound. There is also an argument about how to define 'undergound rap' from non-underground rap. Some people class any rapper who isn't currently having mainstream success (such as rappers like Rakim) as undergound, and other rappers like Canibus, who is widely regarded as being an underground rapper, but has had a gold-selling album, which many people argue makes him mainstream or 'mainstream and undergound'and Papoose who was the first unsigned musician in America to recive coast to coast airplay. Different sources seem to give different answers to this.

Second, alternative IS a specific sub-genre of rap, whereas undergound isn't, so there should be 2 different pages, one for undergound, the other for alternative (or maybe no page for undergound at all). The definition of alternative rap on this page is pretty vague. I'm not quite certain what the 'official' way of defining alternative rap is, but the description given on this page could easily mean christian rap, or any 2pac song with positive lyrics for that matter. A lot of alternative rappers try to make their music sound as diverse as possible and many use abstract lyricism, which also wouldn't fit the description on this page. To be honest, i'm not sure if their is a correct way to define alternative rap.

Third, the beginning of this article sounds like all undergound is different from mainstream because mainstream talks about sex whereas undergound is more positive. This is completely false, the majority of 80's mainstream rap music does not talk about stuff like that and there are a lot of 90's/00's rappers too, also there are a lot of underground rappers that do talk about these subjects, this statement sounds like a stereotypical generalization rather than actual fact. This article sounds biased towards underground and against mainstream.

You're correct. It's a biased piece of sh...misinformation. Feel free to edit away its prejudice. Thanks, --Urthogie 20:52, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

I've never even heard the term alternative hip hop used. It has always been underground hip hop. Jdotpitts 16:44, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

Search "Altnernative hip hop" on Google and you will find countless entires regarding the subgenre. The term itself has been in use since the mid-1990s (as a label for the non-Hardcore/Gangsta acts that became popular at that time) Chubdub 16:35, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

I agree that defining underground or alternative rap is a sticky subject. Common themes in hip-hop classified as alternative or "underground" as a sub-genre are differences in: subject matter, lyrical technique, and/or "beats" from those of the mainstream rap scene of the time. The lyrics aren't necessarily positive, and I believe that classifying underground rap as positive is an overgeneralization. Also, a vast majority of the artists are either unsigned, or on independent or lesser-known labels and pride themselves on not conforming to the standards of mainstream record execs. I think the problem comes when underground or alternative rap as a GENRE isn't distinguished from underground rap as rap that isn't well known. I believe that the above themes would be a start to defining alternative rap as a genre. -Justin (5/3/06)

firstly, i can't think of any directly negative lyrics from Kanye West, Fugees, or BEP as suggested above. perhaps other than 'shut up' by the Black Eyed Peas. However, i would argue that BEP, if to be considered 'alternative' in any way atall since 'Where is the love' (making endless party tracks, mainstream production, simple lyrics), are certainly fringle members of the sub-genre. Whilst i appreciate the term 'alternative hip hop' is not often used, i feel this article does fullfill a roll, in that there are two distinct meanings for 'underground' hip hop; the one of not being signed and available to the mainstream, and the one attempted to be tackled by this article, ie the style. Whilst its not often used in hip-hop circles, i think 'alternative hip hop' is a more correct naming than underground, as it doesn't require an artist to be underground. and perhaps even that calling artists like Common 'underground' is an inacuracy in hip-hop circles, alternative being a more accurate tag, also offering clarity about what 'one' is talking about.
I also feel that the article isn't quite so NPOV as some have suggested; typically, there is a positive, or neutral, message in alternative hip hop, as well as often story-telling. Whereas in 'mainstream', modern, hip hop, themes are often of anger (eminem), gun-violence (50 cent), agression (ludacris), and derrogatory language towards women (Xzibit).
Pehaps also there should be some nod to the fact that alternative hip hop is more aligned to some of what used to be more mainstream in the past, production techniques particularly?.
also perhaps a note about alleged 'selling out' by artists, arguably such as BEP. maybe that is pushing it thou?.Bungalowbill 16:09, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

The black eyed peas are not much of a positive political force (at least thats my POV). Can you explain how "My Humps", a song about the fascination of various Black men with an aging model's secondary sexual traits is conscious or political in any way?--Urthogie 09:18, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

Thats why i was saying they have sold out since getting the 'aging model' in and are no longer make underground hip hop. they barely make any hip hop even. anyway, i didn't go 'all out' and say it because they have a rare track such as 'like that' which has an alternative sound.

Alternative hip hop is a completely subjective term, regardless.--Urthogie 13:48, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

I am not an expert but I am a fan and would just like to add my 2cents. I found this page through NPOV disputes and agree this article needs work. The problem however is in trying to define something that is subjective. My personal experience with the term underground is that underground hiphop was from artists who did not have contracts, however alternative is music out of the mainstream therefore making it subjective. Fugees, BEP etc are great examples of alternative, however the problem is since the term is subjective it can change according to time and the person listening. For instance if your experience with hiphop kept you away from hardcore rap and you mainly stuck to "lighter", for lack of a better word, hiphop then Kanye West may not seem like alternative. The other problem I noticed is many of the things that make up hiphop culture is calssified as part of alternative/underground hiphop specifically, such as graf, turntabling, cyphers etc. --Zer0faults 18:43, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

I like where the tone of this discussion is going. First off I think the most potent definition of Underground Hip-Hop is artists who are collectively outspoken about not signing to a major label, and instead don't sign, start their own label, or sign for merely distribution deals (see Atmosphere, Brother Ali, Sage Francis all signing to Epitaph records but just for distribution deals). Underground isn't synonmous with Alternative: De La Soul is clearly one of the starting points of Alternative yet they are Mainstream and I their records get airplay.

A new page for Underground

I might start a new page for underground rap. It will be a separate page from th alternative page, since underground rap and alternative rap are two separate things. I'm not really willing to write out ome huge article, so hopefully othe people will be willing to add to the page if I do make it. Also, the current list of underground rappers needs to be updated.

On top of that, I strongly disagree wih the opening paragraph of this current article but I can't edit it

Any thoughts? — Preceding unsigned comment added by [[User:2006-05-23|2006-05-23]] ([[User talk:2006-05-23#top|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/2006-05-23|contribs]])

You can edit the first paragraph by clicking the edit tab.--Urthogie 10:08, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

Split this article for the sake of Hip Hop!!!

Alternative hip hop, in short, is that collective of scenes that are not part of the mainstream (i.e. not Gangsta, bling, pop-rap, etc). Common Sense, Plack Eyed Peas are considered alternative, but are mainstream to varying degrees. Many of the "hardest" Gangsta rap artists exist in hip hop underground. Some Artists bounce back and forth between the Underground and mainstream, while some record all alternative music in the mainstream. Underground hip hop, in short, is the collective of artists and their respective works that is not signed to a "major label"._akin to indie rock. --J. Daily 19:53, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Frankly, I've never heard anyone ever use the term alternative Hip hop. It is amazing that so much work has been done on a subject which in my opinion is a manufactured phrase. Alternative Hip hop?...How about alternative jazz, alternative classical, alternative ...? The problem I think is that hip hop, when you try to define it, is already an alternative form...The term alternative sounds redundant maybe. Minibot

Well said.--Urthogie 07:44, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

I find it odd that people are claiming to have never have heard of alternative hip hop, when a simple google search shows several publications refrencing it as a major subgenre of hip hop, including All Music Guide [1]:

Alternative Rap refers to hip-hop groups that refuse to conform to any of the traditional stereotypes of rap, such as gangsta, funk, bass, hardcore, and party rap. Instead, they blur genres, drawing equally from funk and pop/rock, as well as jazz, soul, reggae, and even folk. Though Arrested Development and the Fugees managed to cross over into the mainstream, most alternative rap groups are embraced primarily by alternative rock fans, not hip-hop or pop audiences.

Besides, I don't think personal experiences should be a factor in assessing the credibility of this article. One article was nearly deleted, because one person claimed to have never heard of the golden age of hip hop and claimed that is was a subjective topic. Yet several links were presented to discredit this proposed deletion (interestingly enough, the person who made the article and strongly opposed it from being deleted was Urthogie himself). Nonetheless, I agree that this article does need a clean up. Underground rap and alternative hip hop are two different (though somewhate related) genres. I believe All Music Guide's definition of underground rap [2] is (for the most part) accurate, and should be used as a reference:

Underground Rap falls into two categories. It is either hardcore hip-hop that pushes musical boundaries and has lyrics that are more inventive than gangsta clichés, or it is hardcore gangsta rap that wallows in all of the musical and lyrical cliches of the genre. What the two styles have in common is that they have little regard for mainstream conventions, and they celebrate their independent status. Underground rap also tends to be produced for less than hip-hop on major labels, and it often sounds like it.

P.O.N.Y. 14:38, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

Underground is not a clearly defined genre

Underground is strictly a denotation by fans on artists of their choosing. Its meaning and the artists it pertains to are usually a personal and individual viewpoint that differs widely. Calling a rapper underground is like calling an album a classic, there are virtually no solidly established criteria. As such, I believe only a section relating this fact is necessary as a description of "underground" and "mainstream" (something I had done in the Hip hop music article..) but anyway, yes. PCP MC 03:46, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

I agree. The term "underground" is heavily based on opinion --Jaysscholar 21:56, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

the the Hip-Hop project need to come up with a specific definition and classification for "underground", "mainstream", and "alternative". --Jaysscholar 21:57, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

How about we try not to legally define something that is undefinable? Hip Hop is Hip Hop and all the subdefinitions are hip hop too. Well they are all music and the undefinability allows it to grow and develop. Descriptions allow people to know what our music is, but it should never be closed off. As for alternative ..., well its alternative to all the mass media bs definitions of what hip hop is, and look how those definitions have harmed hip hop and so-called black culture. It is hip hop, maybe alternative or underground is a good enough definition for me. As for groups, I can't believe no one mentioned Spearhead. (unsigned)

I would consider Underground hip hop to be a category (not a genre) for unsigned/independent/local hip hop artists. It has nothing to do with a particular style of music within hip hop, although a lot of artists could fit into one genre like Alternative hip hop. However this is only because Alternative hip hop is a fusion of many different genres, and it's just as much an unspecific genre as "Experimental" music. Entertheinferno 05:52, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

Notable Artists Not Mentioned

What about Anticon? I hope none of you object Anticon is kind of alternative hip-hop. Should we write something about? Sthow 17:28, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

Funny that there is nothing about Atmosphere/Slug in this article also.. (Unknown user)

Anticon and Atmosphere are definitely notable in alternative hip hop. Entertheinferno 07:02, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

As for groups, I can't believe no one mentioned Spearhead. (Unknown user, moved from 'Underground is not a clearly defined genre')

Alternative hip hop doesn't seem like a fitting description for Spearhead. Entertheinferno 07:02, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

I think common's 'I used to love H.E.R' was very notable in underground/alternative Hip hop movement 75.15.225.138 03:07, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

Why not read the article and find a good place to mention the artist you think is notable? Anyone can edit this article... it needs a lot of help anyway :) Entertheinferno 07:02, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

Alternative/Indie/Underground

Underground hip hop is now its own page which succinctly explains that it refers to both Alternative hip hop and Indie hip hop and the difference between them.

However, is anyone ever going to clean up this page? I would prefer not to be the one who does it. This is the current opening sentence:

Alternative hip hop or Underground hip hop is defined as a culture that stems from a distinct musical genre, rather than just the musical genre itself.

Seriously, WTF? Is this supposed to say something like "...is a culture that stems from a sub-genre of hip hop?" Neither the current sentence nor my translation cuts it as an opener.

The opening paragraph is also a ass-whopping 13 lines of text long. ◄HouseOfScandal►13:51, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

Revision

Preferences aside, since I bitched about the bad state of the article, and since 4 days passed without comment from anyone else, I felt obligated to fix it. I just completed a major revision of the first section of this article; it's the most important part and was the part most sorely in need of clarity. The chronology of alternative hip hop is better off; I won't revise that soon or possibly at all. ◄HouseOfScandal►15:29, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for stepping up and revising the opener. I felt that your definition needed revision, so I revised it further. The defining point is that alternative hip hop is artistically different from the mainstream, as you said. I removed the contrast to gangsta rap and pop rap, as they do not define what is mainstream. Also, there are many alternative hip hop artists that do not have a "positive tone" so I removed that statement. Lastly, I removed your definition of underground hip hop, as there is already a specific article for that subject. Instead, I made reference to underground hip hop and showed how it is related to alternative hip hop. Entertheinferno 09:37, 29 December 2006 (UTC)