Talk:Sufism

Sufism is a Mystic school of thought that includes philosophers and muslims. Some famous examples of sufis who were not Muslims would make this opening statement more credible to the ignorant such as I. Alternately, or additionally, we'd like to know why sufism maintains itself so self-consciously as separate from Islam, when every historical detail shows that it is not. An opportunity for some Islamist casuistry here, and enlightenment for us. Are sufis heretics in Islam? Wetman 20:32, 7 Mar 2004 (UTC)

I agree, the first paragraph doesn't make any sense..."Includes carpenters and catholics" would make as much sense as that...--AstroNomer 05:30, Jun 25, 2004 (UTC)

why is this article part of the alternative medicine series? really it makes no sense, it's the same as putting kabbalah and gnosticism under that heading... i think it should be dissociated. any opinions? Uri 14:32, 29 May 2004 (GMT)

I do not know anything about sufism, but if it is a current inside a religion, I agree it does not make sense inside "alternative medicine". We need somebody knowledgeable in Islam to take a look at this.--AstroNomer 05:30, Jun 25, 2004 (UTC)

In recent months, there has been a trend of alternative medicine series boxes getting attached to dozens of Wikipedia articles with very vague relations to AM. Given this trend and, since nothing in the article talks about medicine at all, I will just go ahead and remove it. If anyone disagrees with me, please give the reasoning here. Andris 13:38, Jun 26, 2004 (UTC)

The following text was added to the further reading list I have no clue who put it there or why, but I think this is not its proper place in an encylopedia. Also I am very suspicious about that Syed Hussain business all over the place. I have found absolutely no evidence that he is in any way a significant historical or contemporary Sufi master beuond a couple of promotional websites. His page here on Wikipedia I have listed for deletion as it is mainly gobbledigook rather than biography or similar. Refdoc 21:33, 17 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Deleted Text A word of caution though before you start reading. It is quite debatable if intellectual knowledge is any better or worse if the quest be enlightenment. Going by the track record, looks like knowledge has nothing whatsoever to do with it...mostly acting as a hinderance and puffing up the ego. Sufis are simple people who theorise less and do more. So all the tons of theory available pales before an ounce of simple living - The Sufi Way. Remember, knowing/reading/theorising all the intricacies of mysticism doesn't make you any better or worse than the average Joe on the street. As Syed Hussain aptly says, “Sufi mysticism”is neither a religion nor a philosophy. It’s neither occultism nor Belief System. Infact, Sufism is a science; a science of esotericism. To be a Sufi, does not depend on one’s creed, sex, dress, nationality, profession, status, and education or on the fact whether he is a layman or a monk or whether or not he performs particular rituals.

"Sufi Whirling - the no-nosense way to divinity" looks to be in the same vein. I've deleted it and placed it here:

== Sufi Whirling - The no-nonsense way to divinity ==

The ancient Indian Sufis (and modern Turkish Dervishes), practice the Whirling meditation. Sufi whirling is said to be one of the most ancient techniques, and one of the most forceful, synchronizing people with the raw primordial sources of existence. It is said to be so deep that even a single experience can make one totally different. To practice, spin around with eyes open, as if your inner being has become a centre and your whole body has become like a top.

Raw primordial forces and inner beings: nice stuff, but they do not belong in an encyclopedia. Can't tell what it has to do with Syed Hussain, but I would not be surprised if there was a connection. --Ardonik 03:09, Jul 18, 2004 (UTC)

More of the same ==Related topics== Dances of Universal Peace A system of spiritual practise through dance originally based on Sufi teaching but expanded to include all spiritual paths.Refdoc 23:36, 20 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Intro sentence

"Sufism is a Mystic school of Islamic thought that includes philosophers and muslims." This really needs to be changed, but I'm not quite sure what to turn it into. The fact that it includes muslims is already indicated by it being a mystic school of Islamic thought. The separation of philosophers and muslims indicates they are not overlapping groups. It's just kind of a mess. It might be better to point to the geographic or historic origins of Sufism instead, which serves as a more appropriate introduction. Any ideas? KuriosD 00:45, 25 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Just noticed some debate about this at the top of the page. That'll teach me to skim. Still, doesn't seem as if anyone's touched it in the past couple months. KuriosD 01:30, 25 Aug 2004 (UTC)

To me, someone who has a family background in Sufism, it is Hinduism in the guise of Islamic thought.

Even when it is practised in parts of the world with no history of Hinduism, like Turkey, Central Asia, Arabia, etc.?—iFaqeer (Talk to me!) 20:20, Nov 17, 2004 (UTC)

Alcohol and the Sufi way

One of the things that always intrigued me about Sufi practices is the use of alcohol (which is frequently referenced in the works of Rumi, and other Sufi writers). Not only does it appear important to Sufi practice, but also doubly interesting considering the Muslim prohibition on the fermentation of fruit or grain, which appears to make Sufism at least partly heretical (but at the same time tolerated). I noticed there's no reference to the subject, but I don't have enough information on hand to write it right now. Anyone?

BTW - This is a discussion page. There's no need to delete the question if you have an answer. Feel free to add your information to the article itself.

While different people will tell you different things about whether any Sufi has tolerated alcohol, I think most people would agree that the references to alcohol in Sufi literature are metaphorical. The state of intoxication is meant to represent the state of the follower when he or she is "intoxicated" with the love of the Divine. "Wine" often represents "Divine love", the "Cupbearer" (saqi) usually refers to God, or sometimes the spiritual guide. This metaphor has been extended quite further in many poems. You're right though,... there is alot more to say about this subject. --Katangoori 22:52, 11 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Alcohol is considered forbidden (Haram) by all Sufis. In fact most celebrated Sufis were known to be giant scholars of Islam.

The reference to alcohol in the works of Rumi, and other Sufi writers is purely metaphorical. Not a single eveidence exists where a known and celebrated Sufi has been known to drink.

Sufism like other sciences has its own jargon and it is dangerous to interpret it as an outsider, that is the reason why one of the contemporary Sufi Sheikh Nuh Keller says that Orientalists have lost the message of Sufism knowing it through transalations from people ignorant of teh science.

Refer to his articles on www.suhba.org

Nuh Ha Mim Lecture?

66.143.177.83 pasted a huge lecture by Nuh Ha Mim Keller in the middle of the page. I've removed it since it's huge and out of place (and maybe under copywright). If you want to read it, you can find it here. --Katangoori 17:46, 12 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Sufi history needed

Either in this article, or in a breakout article, there's need for a sober academic history of Sufism. I'm aware that this could be controversial, since I gather that some or all Sufi orders claim a chain of transmission back to Muhammad, while anti-Sufis would give the movement a much more limited history. Still, people who know nothing about the subject need more of a framework.

Also, info on the objections of Salafis and the like to various Sufi or popular religious practices (such as the veneration of saints). Zora 09:21, 1 Feb 2005 (UTC)

"prophet Muhammad"

Let's not overdo the toning down of religiosity. One does not say "president Bush" or "prophet Jeremiah", but "President Bush" or "Prophet Jeremiah"; in the same way, it should be "Prophet Muhammad". Maybe the removal of the article "the" before the name will satisfy everyone.—iFaqeer (Talk to me!) 19:49, Feb 1, 2005 (UTC)

Actually, they'd say "the prophet, Jeremiah". An encyclopedia shouldn't be referring to Jeremiah as if "prophet" were a title the way President is. There's only one president of the United States. Muhammad is certainly the most important non-deity in Islam, but not unique in being a prophet (in a religion where even Jesus is a prophet). I would support Prophet Muhammad before I would Prophet Jeremiah, but I don't think either one is really appropriate in this format. It's not like Muhammad needs some extra capitalization to make him special. And, since the script of Islam is Arabic, it's not like this is some established rule. Kaz 00:48, 2 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Hmmm. Actually, the encyclopedia should most probably just say "Muhammad"?—iFaqeer (Talk to me!) 02:21, Feb 2, 2005 (UTC)

Actually, you're correct. Prophet Muhammad, though it's certainly respectful, is not really objective in any form, in this exact context. And, as I said, there's really only one Muhammad we're gonna be talking about here. Don't have to explain that we don't mean Sousse Chef Muhammad, or champion boxer Mohammad Ali.Kaz 17:47, 3 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Even though I don't have a strong opinion on this, please see Pope John Paul II, where the side reverting to the use of "His Holiness" argued (and that's the current version) that this "honorific style" title. Wikipedia should have same standard for all religious figures 14:16, 5 Feb 2005 (UTC)