Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents

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Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents

This page is for discussion of urgent incidents and chronic, intractable behavioral problems.

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Earlier this evening, Flameviper12 (talkcontribs) created the Randomness (Ninjas) article. This was rightly tagged for speedy deletion by User:Mhoskins. I have chosen to do something different, for which I'm now asking feedback. In the article, Flameviper12 begged not to delete it. I therefore decided to move it to his userspace, at User:Flameviper12/Randomness (Ninjas). On his talk page, I explained to him that I did this on one condition: that he improve his behaviour. The feeling (illusion?) I get, judging from his talk page, is that he is a bored child who means well. I have also told him that if he ever creates one more unencyclopedic article or makes one wrong edit, I will immediately retroactively delete Randomness (Ninjas) from his user space. I did this because I wanted to give him an incentive to improve. I wanna know if I did this the wrong way. If so, feel free to overrule me and delete the article from his user space. Aecis Mr. Mojo risin' 23:48, 31 January 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]

You followed precedent in that, although I have my own discomfort. When an editor has generally good edits and then pulls a boner, moving the whoopsie article to his user space is a great thing, but when an editor has a terrible record and merely says "donot delet," I worry that we are a free web host. What I'm saying is in no sense a condemnation of what you did. You did the right thing in showing Wiki-love. I am just personally worried about how often and how much we do this. Geogre 11:48, 1 February 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Well, I've told him that I will immediately delete the article if he ever makes another wrong edit. So if he continues his behaviour, the article will be deleted, and if he stops his behaviour, we'll have lost a troll and gained a contributor. Calling it a win-win situation would be stretching it, but I don't think it can do us much harm. Anyway, if you ever come across another wrong edit from him, please notify me so I can delete the article, or delete it yourself. Aecis Mr. Mojo risin' 13:54, 1 February 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]

More wheel warring

The one-man struggle to "reform" DRV continues: Patrick Alexander, Colony5. Admin tools are not toys, and having them doesn't mean you get to do whatever you'd like. A good rule of thumb might be if you're the only one who has to keep undoing something, than perhaps you should stop doing it? - brenneman(t)(c) 00:07, 1 February 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]

For some reason, this one user gets to do whatever he wants, whenever he wants, without so much as a slap on the wrist. It's getting mighty old. User:Zoe|(talk) 00:50, 1 February 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Somehow I don't think an arbcom case will result in any restrictions. DES (talk) 00:54, 1 February 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I'm seriously considering an RFC at this point, though I doubt it will do any good. In addition to the above cases, we have two out-of-process deletions, both of which are currently on WP:DRV and will result in the same pointless, sterile arguments all over again. Crotalus horridus (TALKCONTRIBS) 00:55, 1 February 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I knew it was Tony Sidaway before I even clicked on the links.--Alhutch 01:13, 1 February 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]
As did I. That's the crux of the problem, isn't it? Crotalus horridus (TALKCONTRIBS) 01:15, 1 February 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]
What's the solution? I don't think an RfC will do much good.--Alhutch 01:17, 1 February 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Form your own wheel to combat it or do nothing. Chooserr 01:21, 1 February 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Um, what's wrong with unprotecting a page, with a review notice, so that the history can be reviewed? Tony drives me nuts sometimes too--there are times I wish he were more patient--but the reason he'll never be reprimanded is that he's usually doing the right thing out-of-process. That's better than doing the wrong thing in-process. So, uh, chill out. -- SCZenz 01:23, 1 February 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • We must begin with the definition of the "right" thing to do, upon which there is clearly disagreement. These actions are not anti-process but anti-consensus. Despite cries of "moribund" and "process wonking" by IAR bandits, what is being discarded is careful, thoughtful discussion by editors who understand there exists a place for respectful disagreement and eventual compromise.
  • Additionally, the measure of the "sucess" of Tony's actions is remarkably flexible. The deletion of several pseudo-attack templates is an excellent example. TfD was bypassed (Because they would never have been deleted? So much for respecting consensus.) in favour of speedy deletion, and then the extensive wheel warring where Tony deleted {{User GWB}} five times is dismissed as "a bit of a kerfuffle" and declared a "good way to cook". Again and again we have disruption and discord trailing in Mr. Sidaway's wake, with debate and discourse an after thought at best.
  • Tony is an almost endless sink of productivity, and the time and energy that he saps from the project as established, productive contributors trail along cleaning up after him is beyond belief. This is best illustrated by another of his "successes", where contrast between the input and the output is stark indeed.
brenneman(t)(c) 02:31, 1 February 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Marvelous summary. Mr. Sidaway's and company "IAR" philosophy have led me to curtail my WP time from 2 hours/day to about 5 mins/day, and I am patient. God knows how many others have given up in frustration with such outlandish, unrepentent, counterproductive egotism. Xoloz 02:50, 1 February 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]

The surest reason to initiate an RFC is that you feel nothing will be accomplished by it. Don't let fear of the status quo or fear of retribution change the way you express your values. This is a community project, and no one user is allowed to change the way things work. We work on consensus. Avriette 01:27, 1 February 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]

The hilarity for me has been watching a malformed RFC start, get 20+ supports for Tony, then actual charges get added, see many people suddenly taking it seriously, and then seeing Tony crow that everyone agrees with what he's doing. It's depressing, of course. It is not better to do the right thing out of process than the wrong thing in process. It is better to follow the rules that apply to all, to get feedback from others, and to change the procedures if they're wrong. What you don't get to do is what Tony does fairly consistently: announce that he doesn't care if other administrators disagree with him, because "You'll never stop us" and use the admin tools to enforce his will. It is the crux of what has brought him and Snowspinner, above others, to so many RFC's and RFar's. Both fellows have their good points. Snowspinner and I agree more often than not on blocking problem users (I'm quick on the trigger). Tony and I agree to a large degree on what a good article looks like. That can't cover over or excuse deciding to wheel war and give the middle finger to one's fellow admins. (And I've been here longer than both of them, too, if it comes to that.) Geogre 03:22, 1 February 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Why feed him? Just ignore him and he'll probably start doing something more useful with his time.Grace Note 03:54, 1 February 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Normally, that's the right strategy, but Tony mucks things up, and someone has to revert his "kerfluffery." That's more than enough response from others to feed him and keep his anti-social tendencies going. Xoloz 04:20, 1 February 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Yes, but please don't be "driven off". There's plenty to be "driven into"! Grace Note 04:30, 1 February 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Having said that, I do agree strongly with Geogre. There's a huge gap between "ignore all rules" and "ride roughshod over everyone else's opinion". Tony's often on the wrong side of that gap. If he knows he's right, why not trust the community and convince them of his rightness? I asked the same question in re Gmaxwell: do we just shit on each other because we're convinced we're "doing the right thing"? Is that how it is? Grace Note 04:07, 1 February 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]

RFC against Tony Sidayway

I believe this must not continue. The incident listed above, together with this are too much. It is perfectly OK to disagree with other people and defend your position, but using the admin tools towards that end is abuse of the tools. An RFC may not lead anywhere but must be attempted, and if that fails, the next step should be a request for arbitration. Comments? Oleg Alexandrov (talk) 04:17, 1 February 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Oh, Tony's been RfC'ed before, and (since he was just made a clerk of ArbCom), RfAr chances are bad, but I'll give you an award for courage if you go forward. I'll certify anything reasonable, after giving another try at discussion with Tony directly. Xoloz 04:27, 1 February 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]

While Tony has the support of the arbcom, any attempt to moderate his behaviour like this is pointless. Grace Note 04:30, 1 February 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]

But not starting the process is cowardice and only exacerbates the problem. If nobody does anything about it, the actions will continue. Not trying is criminal. Avriette 04:50, 1 February 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Not the ArbCom cabal, I suspect — I have reason to believe Tony is being inspired by a higher level of anti-Wikipedian conspirator. Note also this quote - David Gerard 13:06, 1 February 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]
OUCH! I edited David's comment by mistake. [1] Is it fixed now?
Funny, I read that quotation, and interpret it to mean, "Delete as much crap as possible, and keep it deleted." Undeletion out-of-process doesn't help kill crap. Xoloz 17:16, 1 February 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]
The God-Emperor of Wikipedia could (gasp!) just be wrong. Considering this quote that quote and the fact that people are upset at deleted articles getting resurrected, it looks that careless deletion of valuable articles isn't the problem that some make it out to be. Pilatus 16:02, 1 February 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Refraining from action because of a supposed special status simply confers that status, similar to a self fulfilling prophecy. Paul August 05:07, 1 February 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]

I'm seeing some rather vague statements about disruption here, but nothing specific. Please do make an RfC and we'll try to sort it out. --Tony Sidaway 05:35, 1 February 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Ok, re:Geogre's comments about mal-formed RfC's, please begin at User:Aaron Brenneman/RfC draft in order to have ducks in a row. Enough is simply enough, and if it takes two weeks to put together a complete and concise history I think that would be time well spent. Please, let us try to be as dispassionate as possible about this. There is nothing personal here, the facts alone are more than sufficient. - brenneman(t)(c) 05:51, 1 February 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Please note that I think that it's a total waste of time as RfC has no teeth, but it's better than just kvetching. - brenneman(t)(c) 05:56, 1 February 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Unfortunately, it seems that the RFC is the only way to go, as from above it appears that Tony firmly believes that what he does is right, so dialog is impossible. I do think an RFC must me attempted, even if it has no teeth. It may be an argument in a future RfArb, which, I believe, is not toothless.
I gave it a start where you said, at User:Aaron Brenneman/RfC draft. I don't think it should take two weeks to get this done. The statement of the RFC is pretty clear, and I think it should stay focused: "Wheel warring is not acceptable". I would htink more evidence is needed, certification, and we can push it forward. (I must go to bed now, so can't dig for more evidence). Oleg Alexandrov (talk) 06:08, 1 February 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Seems that Aaron overwrote my version, but either way, the hope is that the RFC will lead anywhere. Wheel warring is just not justifiable. Oleg Alexandrov (talk) 06:36, 1 February 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I'm looking forward to seeing evidence of this "wheel warring". --Tony Sidaway 06:41, 1 February 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]
It's up above, but: [2]. - brenneman(t)(c) 06:59, 1 February 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Lest this get any more entrenched, position-wise, than it strictly needs to be, can I offer the thought that ideally, this would be a means of dialogue, rather than an alternative to it, and a RFC on TS, not "against" him? It may be a long shot at actually resolving anything, but that's precisely what it's intended to be, not just grist to the RFAr mill, or the like. Alai 06:24, 1 February 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]

I absolutely agree with Alai. An RfC is supposed to be a way to improve dialog and resolve disputes, and so I have found them to be in the past. My first RfC led to an understanding of the sheer gulf between two different kinds of thinking on RfC closes--akin to the "bottle half empty/bottle half full" gulf between personalities. In my second RfC I was happy to have a chance to embrace and endorse the civility policy. When I finally formulate a clear idea of what the third RfC is about, then I've no doubt that it will improve my understanding of Wikipedia even further. --Tony Sidaway 06:35, 1 February 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • Yes, bypassing *FD is something he probably shouldn't have done in a number of cases, but I honestly don't see anything wrong with temporary undeleting something for discussion at DRV. it makes the process a lot more transparent and not just available to admins. That's a good thing. Temporary undeletion doesn't mean it will get to stay. - Mgm|(talk) 10:33, 1 February 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]
    • Tony has also been unprotecting the articles after they are undeleted, and then proceeded to list them on AFD, thereby forking the discussion into two different forums. Sjakkalle (Check!) 10:56, 1 February 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • I suspect that much of the problem would go away of there were an agreed and more or less standard process for making articles available during DRV, rather than individual admins making it up as we go along.
I know DRV is not supposed to be about content but about process. But that seems to have crept somewhat (due in no small part to discussion on wikien-l, which is all very nice but not really a substitute for discussion here). The upshot is that Tony considers, not without justification, that it is helpful to see the article content during DRV because in the end this is supposed to be an encyclopaedia so content is the be-all and end-all. I think that end can be served by undeleting and then immediately replacing with a template noting the DRV. For articles which are not particularly damaging replacing is probably excessive, but some undoubtedly are damaging so we need to allow for that. Tony also wants people to be able to "save" the article during DRV. That is not really what DRV is about, but it is what WP is about, so I have some sympathy for that, too, but with contested deletions there is a strong risk of sockfests and multiple nonsense, so if an admin bringing an article to DRV deems it appropriate to lock the article it seems to me wrong to undo that without consent.
It's all very well to say "fuck process" but in the end process is what stops rogue individuals. Nobody think they themselves are a rogue individual, of course, but there must be some reason why every society of any respectable size feels the need to establish some rules and guidelines... Just zis  Guy, you know? [T]/[C] 12:06, 1 February 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • Err, one point. DRV is a check to ensure we on AfD don't delete anything we shouldn't have. If DRV finds that an AfD was carried out properly, but that the article deleted is really rather valuable, then the appropriate result would not be "tough luck, the AfD was completely within process". Wikipedia is not the real world, and we're under no obligation to follow the norms of real-world "appeals courts" just because we have things that could be considered (if you squint a bit) equivalent. fuddlemark (fuddle me!) 12:55, 1 February 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]
The encyclopedia is about content, and the rules and procedures exist solely to enable us to produce that content. I have argued that, unless there is a good reason not to, we should undelete articles and make them editable while their deletion is being discussed in good faith on Wikipedia:Deletion_review. I obtained a broad consensus on this--there were very few who disagreed. However there are a few people who disagree and they have done their level best to stop articles being visible to ordinary users and, where visible, to stop them being edited. I think this is a bad thing, for nothing is served by those actions. They are unequivocally bad for the encyclopedia. -- Tony Sidaway, 13:49, 1 February 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Wikipedia: Requests for Lynching (section break)

I find it interesting to see people accused of undue process obsession decide to hold a lynching, then spend tens of thousands of words thrashing out a precise process for the lynching - David Gerard 14:33, 1 February 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]

On the contrary, judging by the statements of several people above, the sentiment exists that it is impossible to get dispute resolution involving, or sanction against, people who have friends in high-up places. It would be very disturbing if that were true, and it is well worth investigating why several good editors believe the ArbCom is not the penultimate neutral party that it ought to be. >Radiant< 15:35, 1 February 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Arbcom will never have the kind of neutrality that some people expect. Arbcom will always be biases towards protecting the encyclopedia. People who have other interests besides the encyclopedia have to adjust their thinking to that reality if they expect to be counted as "good editors". --JWSchmidt 15:47, 1 February 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I suspect because the AC is more concerned with good sense than torturous procedure, even torturous procedure in the best of faith. But I'm not on it any more (I'm just another editor and admin now), so I might be wrong - David Gerard 16:17, 1 February 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]

I find it hilarious to watch this arguing over the correct procedure to "get" Tony, when it's obvious that no one has even begun the process for developing the plan to generate a schedule to outline Wikipedia:Requests for Lynching (WP:RfL). ➥the Epopt 15:50, 1 February 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]

In any case, I shall not be got. Although the RfC severe flaws, I have taken its intent, which is based on serious concerns, in good faith, and have made a sensible initiative to address those concerns:
* Tony's response
This seems to me to be a reasonable trade-off between doing what is sensible and keeping people, who may not have quite the same opinion of what is going on, from getting upset. -Tony Sidaway 16:43, 1 February 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]
That seems a not unreasonable response, and probably all that could have been expected from a formal RfC in any case. And I might add that lynchings are IMO currently out-of-process :) DES (talk) 16:48, 1 February 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Lynch law

I suspect there would be three schools of thoughts on this:
The first would argue that, to follow proper process, Tony should be listed on Wikipedia:Users for lynching and lynched after consensus is achieved over a period of seven days.
The second will point out that, as Tony qualifies as a Rouge Admin (see Wikipedia:Criteria for speedy lynching), he can be lynched immediately without the need for a full discussion.
The third will argue that, while Tony may not meet the criteria for speedy lynching per se, IAR allows lynching him immediately and listing him on Wikipedia:Lynching review to see if anyone disagrees. —Kirill Lokshin 16:03, 1 February 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Should Lynching Review concern itself with the content of the request for lynching, or only with whether the process of the lynching was completely as specified per ISO 9001:2000? Process is important - David Gerard 16:22, 1 February 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • Nobody is to lynch anybody until the Lynchmaster blows the whistle — even, and I want to make this absolutely clear, even if they do say, "Jehovah". >Radiant< 16:25, 1 February 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]


There is now a user Chooserrr who is imitating me. I don't know what to do. Someone please help before he destroys my good name. Chooserr 00:52, 1 February 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Dead. -Splashtalk 00:53, 1 February 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Thanks. Chooserr 00:54, 1 February 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]


I was wondering is this person an imposter too. She claims that she's an admin, but according to the history she created the account today. Chooserr 01:02, 1 February 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Already been killed by the real Petaholmes. -Splashtalk 01:07, 1 February 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]

This user's only edits consist of adding a sock tag to User:SarekOfVulcan's page, accusing him of being a Chooserrr (or however many r's it is) sock, reverting it when I removed it for lack of evidence, and removing a sock tag I placed for the following reason: to insinuate that SoV was a sock would require prior knowledge of edit histories that new users wouldn't have, so it would seem to me that P0P0 is himself a sock. he has ben blocked, and his pages blanked. I'm certain he is a sock (otherwise none of this makes sense), but I don't know who he is a sock of. Could someone look into this? MSJapan 02:40, 1 February 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]

I found User:Brian0918 in lingerie using Kate's Tool, and I was wondering if a preventative block would be in order, as was done with User:Brian0918 in a bikini. Are accounts such as these blocked for impersonating other users, or something else? Thanks! ~MDD4696 04:03, 1 February 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]

They are, and this now is. Well spotted. Alai 04:09, 1 February 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]

You ain't lived till you've seen Tony Sidaway in a see-thru negligee. Grown men have wept. --Tony Sidaway 07:58, 1 February 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Block! Block! Alai 08:12, 1 February 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]
It's the see-through bit that gets to me. Haunts my dreams, even.--Sean Black (talk) 08:19, 1 February 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Could someone pass me a tissue? I've just thrown up over the keyboard. Aecis Mr. Mojo risin' 11:46, 1 February 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I find your fondness for Kleenex ... disturbing - David Gerard 12:46, 1 February 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]
The goggles! They do NOTHING! -- grm_wnr Esc 14:11, 1 February 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Perhaps you should try creating USER:Grm_wnr_in_peril-sensitive-sunglasses. It might help. KillerChihuahua?!? 14:27, 1 February 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]

New Zephram Stark sockpuppet

Cheese Curd (talk · contribs). Obvious from edit history. Note this one restoring a post by a previous sockpuppet. He's even back at Declaration of Independence (United States)--JW1805 (Talk) 04:36, 1 February 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Blocked.--Sean Black (talk) 04:44, 1 February 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]
And Zephram's ban reset, of course..--Sean Black (talk) 06:14, 1 February 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Should Cheese Curd be added to the list of resetting socks on Zephram's user page? Aecis Mr. Mojo risin' 14:40, 1 February 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Apology from North Carolina vandal

I am the North Carolina vandal, and I apologise for ALL my vandalism. Please unprotect the WoW template. --Gavona 10:38, 1 February 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]

    • Your apology is commendable, but I doubt any unprotection is going to come out of it. Karmafist 12:58, 1 February 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Netoholic blocked

Per his ArbCom case, Netoholic is under a mandatory one-revert rule, and under restriction regarding the Wikipedia and Template namespaces. We are generally tolerant about his contributions to those namespaces because they're mostly positive and constructive.

However, Neto is currently party to five different revert wars, on three templates ({{Message}}, {{Languageicon}} and {{Infobox}}), one template-related page (Wikipedia:Meta-templates) and one article (Leet). Revert wars are generally understood as disruptive, and he has violated his "one revert" restriction on several of these.

Hence, he has been blocked for 24 hours. Netoholic is requested to discuss controversial changes on the relevant talk pages, and to seek consensus on the issues involved. >Radiant< 11:56, 1 February 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]

I have reviewed those templates and the changes Netoholic made. I don't find any of the edits disruptive, and he did discuss his changes on Template talk:Languageicon. I am unblocking him. - Ta bu shi da yu 15:32, 1 February 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Someone else has unblocked him. - Ta bu shi da yu 15:34, 1 February 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]
He is pushing his essay on WP:AUM now. AzaToth 16:20, 1 February 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]


Is it just me, or does Neto's block history show a remarkable facility for being unblocked without actually reforming his behaviour? In the last month he has been blocked 4 times for edit-warring and breaching his ArbCom restrictions, only to be unblocked almost immediately with a comment along the lines of "you children really should learn to get along": on 2 of those occasions a 24-hour block was reversed within 20 minutes, and on one occasion having been unblocked 5 hours into a 24-hour block, he was re-blocked 90 minutes later for continuing to "make threats".

Those of us who have borne the brunt of his bad temper end up feeling like the victim of the school bully who is the "teachers' pet": we simply get patted on the head and told that we're probably provoking him. Neto began his WP:AUM crusade on the strength of advice from Jamesday, which he represented as the combined opinion of the development team: he appeared to recruit a team of admins who were willing to support his continued activities of intimidation and threatening behaviour even when they were in direct contravention of his ArbCom restrictions. Even now that Brion has stepped in and revealed that the situation was not nearly so grave as alleged by Neto, he has continued to insist that his opinion is correct—even alleging that Brion "would of course say that" the servers could take the strain "because he's paid for taking care of them" (my paraphrasing, which could probably do with a bit of merciless tightening-up).

Is there any chance that someone who has been the subject of an ArbCom case, and been heavily restricted as a result, might be actually made subject to those restrictions, or must those of us who have never even yet been the subject of an RFC continue to assume good faith in the teeth of abundant contrary evidence? —Phil | Talk 16:46, 1 February 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Elonka "refactoring" pages and Phil Welch threatening to block anyone who stops her

This is to give everyone proper notice: Talk:Eenasul Fateh (which Elonka tried and failed to completely deleted), Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive68, and Template talk:Mesopotamian mythology were all tagged by User:Elonka with a "refactoring" template in preperation for her censoring previous comments she and only she believes are personal attacks... as far as I know, that template is normally not used as we don't really refactor talk pages (despite the claims of the refactoring page) except on an informal basis. Either way, it is quite outrageous for Elonka to try to use a little-used guideline in a way it was clearly not intended for to erase comments she objects to.

I have removed these templates, because there was no declaration by any policy here that Elonka was allowed to determine for Wikipedia what gets deleted and what doesn't. Phil Welch above has claimed he would block anyone for attempting to do so, other admins disagreed. If he does go ahead and block me I would hope that his action would be immediately undone as soon as it is noticed.

This is here so it's all out in the open: If Phil Welch blocks me he is clearly doing so without any authority and to assist an editor in a situation he has already taken a side on. We don't need cowboy admins here going against everyone else, we need to either just drop it totally like mature adults or an actual, real decision that's fair to all sides, which certainly is not just letting Elonka erase whatever she wants and keep whatever attacks she made. I note that one of the things she claims is a personal attack for saying that she lied... yet she feels unrestricting from claiming over and over here and elsewhere that I and Bishonen and others lied. The proper response from mature adults here is to just move on, not to try to erase history and censor other people's comments. She claims on her website that everything she has labeled as a personal attack against her must be removed and that that is non-negotiable. That's not how Wikipedia works, and if she thinks she can force her way through on it based upon the comments of just one admin, she has another thing coming. DreamGuy 13:39, 1 February 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]

  • What is the difference between what she is trying to do and your frequent removal of messages on your talk page that you don't like? [3] [4] [5] [6].
Also you keep accusing her of lying, which seems to have started this whole thing. What exactly did she lie about to set off this dispute? -- JJay 14:08, 1 February 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Talk page content is almost always up to the user whose talk page it is. Archive content should not change. They're completely different and your comparison comes across as specious - David Gerard 14:21, 1 February 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Specious? Frankly, I'm just confused by the absurdities here. -- JJay 14:25, 1 February 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Evidently - David Gerard 14:29, 1 February 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Yes, unlike everyone here, I am frequently confused. Nevertheless, the two users seem to share a similar propensity for wanting to remove comments or attacks (call them what you will), on talk pages or elsewhere. While I also think these two were somehow made for each other- and their mutual gyrations are mildly amusing- it might be nice to find a solution so that everyone can just move on. -- JJay 14:38, 1 February 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]
The solution IS to move on, something you and Elonka and Englishrose, etc., refuse to do. DreamGuy 16:06, 1 February 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I guess you moved on after your "notice" above or statement below or...never mind. -- JJay 16:39, 1 February 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Good afternoon Mr. DreamGuy. Forget whether it's policy or not for a second. Is it really necessary for you to keep these comments on the Eenasul Fateh talk page? What reasons do you have for you to be so keen to hold onto them? Could it possibly be because you feel that you shouldn't be censored? Are they really of such an importance to wikipedia that you oppose these comments be removed? Or is it a personal importance? Sorry for all the questions, I’m just curious of why you want these comments to remain. Englishrose 14:24, 1 February 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]

It strikes me as a useful record of past conflicts with a user who appears to be attracting conflicts and upsetting even those supporting their position. That's why it's called an "archive" - David Gerard 14:29, 1 February 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]
    • Yes I agree, DreamGuy does seem to be attracting a lot of comflicts doesn't he? Englishrose 14:32, 1 February 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • Brilliant attempt to purposefully misread that comment... congratulations. DreamGuy 16:06, 1 February 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]


Er, so it ate my edit summary, you might have noticed I've just archived per David Gerard. So, I did. I think I failed to mess it up. InkSplotch(talk) 15:29, 1 February 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Not to sound territorial, because, really, I'm not, but you messed it up in pretty much every way imaginable - you archived discussions not even two hours old, created a new archive when the old one was only 20k long, pasted the contents into a WP:AN archive instead of a WP:ANI one, moved a different' WP:AN archive into the WP:ANI sequence, and added redlinks to the navigation boxes. I think I've cleaned it all up. Except for the two-hour-old discussions, anyway. —Cryptic (talk) 15:48, 1 February 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]
No, please, I think I need to be hit over the head with a very large 2X4 at this point. I've been picking up quite a lot through observation, but I wasn't ready to attempt such a large edit on my own. My humble apologies. InkSplotch(talk) 15:58, 1 February 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Full points for good faith and boldness though :-)
(I had to ask for an archive rather than doing it myself because the 428K edit box was manifesting the Mozilla bug where typing goes r-e-a-l-l-y s-l-o-w-l-y. I suppose I should upgrade Firefox to 1.5, really. Or try SeaMonkey.) - David Gerard 16:12, 1 February 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]

An alternative suggestion for archiving

OK... if I'm reading the History right User:InkSplotch archived the whole page "per David Gerard" (who had asked for archiving because the page was so big, but had not expressed any wish that active discussions be buried alive). If I had noticed before a lot of new stuff had been added to the page, I would have reverted. The lively discussion I came here to post on has been left in the air, for example. We have an archiving bot, right? The bot archives discussions that have had no input for three days. If the page still gets too large (yes, I know that the page still does get too large), I suggest that the bot be set to archive after a day and a half, as a better alternative than killing active discussions ad hoc from time to time. Can we agree to change the setting of the archivebot, please? Bishonen | talk 16:28, 1 February 2006 (UTC).Reply[reply]

Yes, David's request was simply to "archive" without details (it's available in the History from my link above), and my main fault was trying to archive things the same way I've seen people archive their talk pages - en masse. As soon as Cryptic pointed out what I'd done to active discussions (not to mention fumbling where I put the archive, and fouling up the nav boxes), I realized that a page like this has to be handled differently. I put that up to my own inexperience.
As for bots, well, I noticed the nav boxes seem to update via bots, but I don't know about the main page. If there is such a bot for archiving this page, may I suggest a (templated?) notice to keep well-meaning sorts like myself out of trouble? If there isn't, then I'm going to pay closer attention to how this page is manually archived around active/inactive discussions and perhaps go make some updates to WP:Archive. I'll make something useful out of myself if it kills me. InkSplotch(talk) 17:24, 1 February 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]
There's a mention in the page header that it's archived by bot. —Cryptic (talk) 17:30, 1 February 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I can, probably without too much trouble, make the bot tailor the lagtime such that the current page is a given length after archiving. Pick a size and I'll see what I can do. (For the record, I think the root problem is that too much is posted here that should be somewhere else - straightforward requests to block a user (with subsequent comments about the lingerie), or protect a page, or edit a protected page - and we should just move them to the proper place. Or I can make the bot look for sections with little <!--archivenow--> html comments and archive those immediately when it sees them regardless of the timestamps.) —Cryptic (talk) 17:30, 1 February 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]

I have blocked Dtasripin (talk · contribs) for making repeated personal attacks. He has been warned several times [7] [8] [9], but removed the warnings [10], which led another user to warn [11] for another personal attack [12] instead of taking increased action.

I bring this up not just to draw attention to the block, but to the removal of behavior warnings as a method to avoid consequences for bad behavior. We have generally "frowned upon," but not taken any action regarding, a user who removes such warnings from their talk page. But I think this stems from a day when most regulars had a general idea of what was going on with most problem users, and this isn't the case anymore. Most likely, if I am looking into bad behavior I won't know what warnings someone has received in the past, and with an extensive talk page history I don't think it's reasonable to delve through every one looking to see if they are there. That means that everyone who issues warnings has to keep an "eye" on people they've warned, lest they avoid further consequences for their bad behavior. I suggest instead we make it a practice generally to revert the removal of behavior warnings on user talk pages.

Demi T/C 15:41, 1 February 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]

I agree wholeheartedly with Demi. Behaviour warnings should stick. However, as with anything, how long for? I'd say a few months: an editor may not be bad forever. They may still reform: we do live in hope! I personally have never seen such a thing, but one day it may happen. - Ta bu shi da yu 15:50, 1 February 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I think it's hard to require it, for the same reason WP:3RR generally isn't applied to user's edits on their own talk page: it makes too easy a playground for trolls. For now, let's just see if clicking on talk page history isn't onerous for admins warning people - David Gerard 16:14, 1 February 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Sorry if I'm not connecting the dots--if I understand correctly, you think it would be easy for a troll to make a spurious such a "warning" on a user's talk page, and rely on this practice to replace it when it was removed? Demi T/C 16:28, 1 February 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Please block User: for a long time. Just look through its contributions. Cuñado - Talk 16:24, 1 February 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]