User talk:Mav

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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Mav (talk | contribs) at 01:54, 23 December 2002 (putting message at bottom and responding). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

User Talk for maveric149

If you've been frequenting the RecentChanges page, you might already expect that I am a Wikipediholic -- yep, I admit it (score = 82).
Problem now is, sleeping has switched from a full (i.e. normal) to part time occupation.... oh well - you only live once, there's plenty of time to rest later...

Older messages are in talk archive 1, talk archive 2 and talk archive 3, talk archive 4, talk archive 5, talk archive 6

I oftentimes give quick, seemingly unkind and terse comments on talk pages and especially in edit summaries. However meanness is not at all the intent, just efficiency. This is a quirk of my rare personality type: INTJ. I do try to moderate what I say and how I say it -- mainly because my terseness sometimes leads to inefficient chit chat to resolve misunderstandings on talk pages.

re: headings for see also (on Encyclopedia) -- Apparently, you've never followed me around the 'pedia before, mav. :) I've been giving see also its own sub-heading since I first became a Wikipedian. I checked the Wikipedia:Manual of Style and Wikipedia:Guide to Layout, but neither mentions see also style. I have some arguments for using a sub-headings; maybe we should discuss the issue at Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style. After you, good sir! -- Stephen Gilbert 12:38 Dec 1, 2002 (UTC)

I will have to do that. :-) But alas that will have to be later. BTW I have been doing the exact opposite since I became a Wikipedian. If you are going to have a heading then ==Related Articles== would be best. "See alsos" are usually used as a queue for topics that should be discussed in the article but aren't yet. --mav

You probably saw this on Recent Changes already, but could you take a look at Pansy and check the ITIS reference? I know there's a way to make it link more precisely, but there are several varieties of the plant & I don't know how to do it. Thanks, --KQ 07:03 Dec 2, 2002 (UTC)

Done. Beautiful picture BTW. :) --mav
Well thank you.
Seems that pansies have about a billion species.
I like putting in the pictures, but then I don't know much about the tree of life part of it so I feel out of my league. Anyway, thanks (for the compliment and the link).  :-) --KQ

Hey. I just noticed that when you search for a term it misses it if it is included in a larger word. I searched for "aerial" and it missed "aerials". Is this by design to keep a search for "man" from throwing up "Manhattan" for example? Either way, I think the search engine should at least be able to find "aerials" when I ask for "aerial". :) --Dante Alighieri 23:11 Dec 3, 2002 (UTC)

Hm. I'm not a developer so I don't know. Is "aerials" an inherently plural term? We try to keep things in the singular here whenever possible. --mav
MySQL's fulltext search works only on whole words. --Brion 23:31 Dec 3, 2002 (UTC)
There is a way to search for "port" in "transportation", etc. but you get a lot of extra results. What I'd like is to search for X or Y or Z -- rather than X and Y and Z. Maybe someone on the Wikitech-l knows... --Ed Poor
Stick "or" between the search terms. ie, "X or Y or Z". --Brion 23:31 Dec 3, 2002 (UTC)

Just popping in to say hello... Hello! --BL

Howdy! --mav

Hey, mav, Messina is a disambiguation page. --Dante Alighieri 01:01 Dec 5, 2002 (UTC)

Yeah, I know. I fixed the link right after I made it. --mav

Good job! Also, my sources indicate that the Gauls invaded Italy in 390, but did not sack Rome until 387. --Dante Alighieri 01:19 Dec 5, 2002 (UTC)

Well my source is The Timetables of History by Bernard Grun. It wouldn't be the first time this source was wrong but the Timetables also state that Rome was rebuilt in 387 BC.... --mav

Ick... I'm getting different dates at different sources... :( I'll sort this out and get back to you. :( --Dante Alighieri 01:35 Dec 5, 2002 (UTC)

Mav, what is the sandbox, and what is that stuff in it? Is it vandalism or not?


The Wikipedia:sandbox is a public resource for Wikipedians to experiment in. It is therefore hard for anybody to actually vandalize the sandbox (unless they type vulgarities or link to obscene photos). --mav

Hi, Mav. Thanks for the welcome. Hope you don't mind my style. I tend to respond in like kind to what I take as face value. Looks like you've made some wonderful contributions. Cheers to you. BoNoMoJo

Nah, no problem at all. Thanks for the compliment and I look forward to working with you in the future. :) --mav

I will be leaving myself in a few minutes, but I think .194 got the hint finally. --Uncle Ed

Yep. I think SoftSecurity won the day here. --mav

When you get a chance could you take a look at Talk:Brussels. There's a bit of a naming problen there. Most small Belgian communities do not have English name. In the bilingual immediate area of Brussels many of these have both a French and Flemish name. User:Dhum Dhum has chosen to list these in the format Flemish name / French name. This is fine from a NPOV standpoint but the "/" in the name looks ugly. I suggested one possible solution, but am not completely satisfied with it myself. I would especially like to avoid walking into a hornets' nest over Belgian linguistic sensitivities. Other opinions would be welcome on that talk page. Eclecticology 08:52 Dec 6, 2002 (UTC)

Yuk! / titles. That ain't good at all. I'll look into this tomorrow. I'm off to bed now. --mav

Hey mav, I was browsing around and noticed the troubles in Talk:Asia Carrera. What exactly is wiki policy on that filmography? I mean, I suppose it IS information and related to the topic of the article. --Dante Alighieri 12:24 Dec 6, 2002 (UTC)

I'm no expert in heterosexual porn, but I'm pretty sure that the "filmography" inserted is bogus. Compare:[1] --mav
I'm no expert in ANY kind of porn, either. :) I did check at Asia Carrera's website, and she lists 250+ movies as well as references several (at least 50) compilations... perhaps the filmography listed those? See [2]. --Dante
LOL - I'm at work right now so I can't visit p0rn websites. 250 is a bit much for us to list and since neither you nor I know just what might be her "best" work I think that an external link to her own extensive filmography would be best. --mav
Hehe, I just meant that maybe the user wasn't vandalizing.. he might have been trying to catalog Ms. Carrera's fine work. :) --Dante Alighieri 22:40 Dec 6, 2002 (UTC)

See my comment at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Cities

Isn't flouride used in dental products? Vera Cruz 20:33 Dec 8, 2002 (UTC)

In the form of sodium fluoride, yes. --mav

And isn't it POV to say that something is dangerous, when the government says it's safe? Vera Cruz 20:39 Dec 8, 2002 (UTC)

Yep. Especially when it is stated as a fact. --mav

I wish I could afford one of these for you for your next editing binge, mav.  ;-) --KQ

Sweeet! :-) --mav

My only reason for moving a couple of fluoride points was, as you guessed, to stop an edit war. If the battle has ceased, then let's carry on as usual. Hm, I see Axelboldt put those points back and added some more. Good! --Uncle Ed

Mav, not being very much into geography, Id definitely say Scandinavian mountain chain since the word scandinavia covers the whole peninsula (also the Norwegian part) the website indicating the same. Dan Koehl 05:16 Dec 10, 2002 (UTC)

OK. Thank you for the information. I will move the article now. --mav

I just noticed a change at William Caxton where someone hard coded an age. It made me wonder if anyone ever thought of having some sort of way for Wikipedia to have something like {TODAYS_DATE} and so forth that could be used to dynamically update ages and so forth like {{TODAYS_YEAR} - 1980} would be how old I am. Of course there would be other uses a bit more complicated than this. I'm probably just crazy and there are many more important things to do with the software. -- RM

There is already {{CURRENTYEAR}} = 2023. Your idea does sound interesting though and should be easy to code. But in general, we try to avoid complex stuff like that - esp. since finding the age of somebody requires only a simple subtraction operation in the head of the reader. Are you signed-up to Wikitech-l? --mav
No, but I guess I shall sign up for it, if not just to see what everyone else thinks. But you're right, you could add a basic programming language of sorts to Wikipedia, but that would not be very friendly or simple. I think we can cope without it. On the otherhand, a better way to make tables would be a godsend. HTML tables are just a pain. -- RM
Agreed. I have to admit that I am personally responsible for creating the first table-based WikiProject (Elements) which ended up inspiring several others (Countries, Tree of Life, Novels, Animals, Timelines...). The trouble with HTML tables is that they are so dang useful to readers but are a nightmare for mark-up phobic contributors (not too purty or easy to work with for the rest of us either). There has already been a good deal of talk about this on the mailing lists and on meta. See m:Wiki markup tables. --mav

Thanks for deleting my old 'to do' list page quercus robur 23:58 Dec 11, 2002 (UTC)

Not a problem. --mav

Hey Mav: Whats up? Thanks for the niece words you said about me and my articles, I loved your words! well, reality is that Ive learned a lot from you ad other good wiki writers. My other secrets are: having 24 hours and seven days of nothing to do, LOL, researching and, in the boxing article cases, having a family that talks boxing 24 hours a day. I mean, believe me, when I was 3, I knew more about Roberto Duran and Muhammad Ali than I knew about Big Bird..LOL...

I love writing about things that interest me. For example, Disney Channel shows, I imagine Im the only 30 year old in the world who enjoys Lizzie McGuire and Sister Sister..LOL not to mention Im a little bit out of the range of the target audience of those shows...I guess thats something else that helps me come back every

Well, Im gonna write an article on John Paxson, the guy who broke my heart when he sank that three pointer for the Chicago Bulls against the Phoenix Suns in te 1993 NBA Finals, so Im gonna go. I wanted to apologize for not thanking you earlier. When I came this morning the page wasn't working.

Once again, Thanks, and God bless you!! Hope to read from you and some new articles of yours soon1!

Sincerely yours, your wiki friend, AntonioMartin

Bits at Talk:Pansy for you, mav. ... And why did you start on January 1, 2002? You weren't out partying? Huh, neither was I.  ;-) --KQ

That was the night before. It's sad, but my birthday is on the 31st so I'm always upstaged by the new years thing. So I just do the new years party thing with my friends who like to put candles in the pizza for me and give me gag gifts. --mav

mav, can't you do anything about and his ilk? I'm tired of reverting his/her/their nonsense. -- Zoe

No worries, Zoe. That one's been blocked. I'll be watching for a while and blocking every IP he can come up with. -- Stephen Gilbert 03:17 Dec 15, 2002 (UTC)

Long ago in the mists of time, towards the beginning of Wikipedia, someone suggested that Jimbo install a "reach out and slap someone" button. --KQ

LOL I would love that feature! My partner seems eager to databomb the mo fo but I told him that that wouldn't be cool since so many people use the IPs. --mav
Not people, mav. AOL users. They would only use your pity against you. ;) --Brion
Ouch! Yes the masses are unwashed and vermin live amongst them. --mav

Can you, or someone, delete the following that grate on my "Search" nerves:

PariS Julliette Binoche

Yes for CamelCase Paris (since there is no valid history) but no for the double "l" Juliette Binoche (since this is a valid mispelling). --mav


Dear Mav: Thanks for helping me about the lock thing. AndI need to apologize for posting my message asking for your help on your user page. I was so shocked and outraged about the thing that I didnt realize I was posting it on the wrong page.

Sorry about that

Sincerely yours your wiki friend AntonioMartin

No problem. If I didn't want people to edit my user page I would protect it. :-) I'm sorry that you thought the ban was directed at you personally. We do need a better blocked IP message to say something like "Somebody using IP was blocked {insert admin reason} at {time of block}. Many people may also use this IP address. If you happen to share this IP with the vandal or otherwise think this block is in error, then please contact the Administrator who performed the block." "Administrator" here would be an 'email this user' link for the Admin that did the block. How were you able to edit my user page if you had an IP block? --mav

Hello maveric- why did you move rust iron oxide back to rust? I was just about to create a disambig. page between rust (iron oxide) & rust (fungal disease)

Answer on talk:rust. --mav
I've replied on the rust talk page- I don't want to get into an edit war or anything but I do think that a disambig page is warranted. provided I'm not going to cause any sort of ill feeling i'll go ahead and create such a page, including taking responsibilty for moving the links (there wern't too many when I looked) quercus robur

Thank you for deleting PariS. HOWEVER: What about Julliette? Please delete this page and others that are redirected because of spelling errors. This is supposed to be an encyclopedia. Unknowing visitors will (because, believe it or not, they are not all intellects like certain who think they are at this site) think that this FRENCH name is just a spelling variation....DW

See Wikipedia:Policy on permanent deletion of pages point 4. I've already nominally violated point 7, but the historical content of PariS was so bad that I don't think anybody ever bookmarked it. --mav

Mav, please see updates on the Konqueror situation at wiktionary:User talk:Eclecticology. --Brion 00:30 Dec 18, 2002 (UTC)

Done. --mav

My cat's breath smells like cat food.  ;-) --KQ

I try not to smell my cat's breath because she likes to, uh, maintain, uh.. a high degree of feminine feline hygiene. --mav
LOL. Well, that was from the Simpsons.  :-) Wry comment on a recent article. But, uh, yeh. I don't like dogs for a similar reason; and they're more inclined to want to lick your face and/or hands. --KQ
It is disgusting what we let our pets do to us. One good thing about having a dog and a cat is that the dog keeps the litter box clean. If you know what I mean. ;-) --mav

here's a piece on a potentially promising shift in publishing in scientific journals. if you need a login.  :-) cheers, --KQ

NYT doesn't like my browser (I think I blocked the NYT cookie a while back). Is this about open content publishing? I've read about that on Slashdot and I think it is most cool. --mav
It is. Two new scientific journals which will put their texts immediately into the public domain. One of them is on biology; the other is on medicine. And yes, it's an idea only a few centuries overdue. :-) --KQ
Sweet! Do you have their URLs? Any good journal article will have background text in them that explains the current understanding of a subject before going into the new research. We could use that! --mav
I don't think they've started yet. Here's the page about the journals, who/what/why etc. ... Ah, "expect to publish our first issues in the second half of 2003," they say. --KQ

I saved a stub on JFK Jr while you were deleting the original. If you think it's better off deleted, feel free. --rbrwr

It looks good to me. Thanks for doing the work. :) --mav

Same thing here, but with Battle of Kosovo instead, although I can't understand why you deleted the original. If it is a figment of's imagination, how come I can find so many references to it on the net?? --Gabbe

Look at [3]. When the majority of edits made by a single person are vandalism then it is hard to trust anythig they write. I will, however, restore the old version since, as you say, that article seems OK. --mav

Mav: somebody has taken my comments to "Karl" on Dan Keshet's talk page and moved them to the Holocaust page, signing my name, creating the impression that I am a holocaust denier. I've made an entry on the Vandalism_in_progress page, and contacted the anonymous user's ISP, in Canada. Is it possible to check the server logs and find out if any registered users have logged in from the IP block ( - on December 18 between, say, 8:00-10:00 UTC? Or any other information which would help identify this person? Thanks! --Len

Hm. That's not very nice of that person to do that to you. I know it is possible to find out the IP of a logged-in user since this has been used to ban bad users in the past. However, this information is not directly logged with user IPs so it is difficult for the developers to find it even when they already know what the user name is. So it would be possible to find out this information but it won't be easy and might require manually searching all 6,000+ user accounts. You should ask an actual developer about this. I know Brion has searched a user account for his IP in order to ban a logged-in user before. --mav
Judging by earlier edits coming from in the same IP range with the same user agent string, it appears to be Karl. --Brion 22:39 Dec 18, 2002 (UTC)
Thanks for that, Brion. Is it possible for you to help me communicate with him and talk this out? To avoid anyone mailbombing me or Karl, could you email his address to my address? If we can't reach an understanding, I will be recommending that his ISP terminate his account and forward the information to the authorities; Canada has pretty strict laws about hate speech. Thanks! (Note: my spam-prevention system will ask you to confirm your email. I don't know which address to unblock, so I can't pre-authorize your email. Thanks.) --Len
Although we're pretty liberal with IP addresses, we have a much stricter (though implicit) policy about giving out e-mail addresses; I don't think it'd be appropriate for me to hand out someone's e-mail address without an ok from Jimbo or permission from them. Note that you can send him e-mail through the "E-mail this user" link on the sidebar of User:Karl; as the initiator of contact, this will reveal your e-mail address to him, but won't reveal his e-mail address to you unless he chooses to respond. --Brion 03:58 Dec 19, 2002 (UTC)
That's too bad. Sounds like it'll be the police then. Karl: I suggest you write me using the "E-mail this user" feature of Wikipedia. --Len.

Followup: Brion and/or Mav, can we verify that Karl is not being falsely suspected here? For example, are there any other edits performed from within the IP block between the dates of December 10 and December 19? The preliminary response from's abuse people is that impersonating somebody else to post anti-semitic material is consistent with their use policy, so nothing will be done. If it really was Karl, I request that he be banned. --Len

I'll go filter the logs again. (Hmm, have you read their AUP? 2(e) and 2(f) sure sound applicable here.) --Brion 22:22 Dec 19, 2002 (UTC)
All Sentex user(s)' edits from December: I did some spotchecks comparing with the page histories, and don't see any that aren't either logged in as Karl, or occasionally not logged in (anonymous raw IP). The only one not made via Windows XP/IE6.0 was Mathilde Bonaparte, which may have been made by a non-Karl anonymous poster with Windows 2000. --Brion 22:58 Dec 19, 2002 (UTC)


  • - - [14/Dec/2002:17:09:27 +0000] "POST /w/wiki.phtml?title=User_talk:DanKeshet&action=submit HTTP/1.1" 302 5 "" "Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 6.0; Windows NT 5.1; .NET CLR 1.0.3705)" <-- this edit is attributed to Karl
  • - - [18/Dec/2002:13:59:49 +0000] "POST /w/wiki.phtml?title=Holocaust&action=submit HTTP/1.1" 302 5 "" "Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 6.0; Windows NT 5.1; .NET CLR 1.0.3705)"
  • - - [18/Dec/2002:14:02:49 +0000] "POST /w/wiki.phtml?title=Holocaust&action=submit HTTP/1.1" 302 5 "" "Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 6.0; Windows NT 5.1; .NET CLR 1.0.3705)"
  • - - [18/Dec/2002:14:12:20 +0000] "POST /w/wiki.phtml?title=Talk:Holocaust&action=submit HTTP/1.1" 302 5 "" "Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 6.0; Windows NT 5.1; .NET CLR 1.0.3705)"
  • - - [18/Dec/2002:14:14:11 +0000] "POST /w/wiki.phtml?title=Talk:Holocaust&action=submit HTTP/1.1" 302 5 "" "Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 6.0; Windows NT 5.1; .NET CLR 1.0.3705)"

Mav:The new pages already existed, so the rename page facility didn't permit the easy route. Stephen C. Carlson 03:15 Dec 19, 2002 (UTC)

Fair enough. But in the future you can ask an Admin to delete the redirect page in order to allow for a move (place it on votes for deletion). Otherwise the contributions of everyboy else on that article are hidden. --mav

Mav, are you the one running queries like this:

SELECT user_name, COUNT(*) FROM user, old WHERE user_name=old_user_text GROUP BY user_id ORDER BY user_id DESC LIMIT 20

for your new-users-to-greet list? I caught one running very slowly; you might try instead:

SELECT user_name, COUNT(*) FROM user, old WHERE user_id=old_user GROUP BY user_id ORDER BY user_id DESC LIMIT 20

the indexes match up more cleanly that way, and it should run faster. --Brion 07:46 Dec 20, 2002 (UTC)

Yep that was me. All I did was copy from the query page... --mav

Is something like Managing_Urban_America going to be a problem? Vera Cruz 16:52 Dec 20, 2002 (UTC)

It needs some work (but so do many of our articles). See the talk page. --mav

Dear Mav: Hi! Thanks for noticing the title thing. I had no idea what could happen if I included the Tm in the title. I will remove it to a new page as soon as my typing device (which as you might have noticed from my last few articles is giving me trouble) stops troubling me and my tyiping.

Thanks and God bless you!!\

Sincerely yours, AntonioMartin

Thank you! Yeah those types of special characters shouldn't be in page titles in general since most people don't know how to link to them. --mav

Mav, do you know if it's possible to direct the DNS for at our server for the meantime? The Wikipedia webserver is --Brion 01:40 Dec 21, 2002 (UTC)

I think that would be a good idea - except I don't how to do that. --mav
Try --Brion 08:09 Dec 21, 2002 (UTC)
OK. I'm in. I tried to change the primary DNS to but got this error message "The name server redelegation for has failed." Is that what you need me to do? --mav
Hmm, what we want is for the host that the DNS server points to when asked what '' is to be The primary DNS server is what you'd change if you wanted to use DNS servers other than Verio's... I tried to flip through their support section myself, but I have to admit it's really unclear. I think their goal is to take your money and then confuse you so much that you can't actually use any of their services (or figure out how to cancel the automatic bill payment... ;) If you're willing to e-mail me the account info I can see if I can figure it out using the direct approach. (Push all buttons until either it or I submit to fatigue...) --Brion 09:00 Dec 21, 2002 (UTC) (DISCLAIMER: Wikipedia administrators will never ask you for your account password, but they may ask for access to third-party services, credit cards, and your lunch money.)
OK I'll forward the info to you. --mav
Great, thanks. I think I've got it configured right in the hideous hideous "Zone editor"; it could take up to 24 hours for the changes to take effect (plus varying propagation time to local DNS servers around the 'net). --Brion 09:16 Dec 21, 2002 (UTC)
Coolness, thanx! What about Jimbo's --mav
I'll bug them again about setting it up... (Do you have the same problem that I do, that I type W-I-K and can't stop my fingers from going on to I-P-E-D-I-A? It's bugging the crap out of me. ;) --Brion
I stop myself at the second i. Hm. I wonder if we shouldn't also have Probably not needed. --mav

Hi! thanx for the welcome msg. (you can delete this after reading ...) --zeno

You are Welcome! I like to keep everything though. ;) --mav

Hello Maverick149,

Could you please read the email I sent you regarding SINCGARS, its source, etc.

Thank you, --Prefect

Response is on talk:SINCGARS --mav

Hm. It doesn't offend me but does the user name Jizzbug offend you? Community standard stuff, blah, blah... --mav

No, because I don't know what it means. I may know what the first syllable means by itself, but the word as a whole may have independent meaning and, in any event, it's an e-mail address that gets 250+ hits on Google, so I don't have the impression it was chosen specifically to trash the Wikipedia. But if you'd like for me to be offended, I'll be happy to consider whatever reasons you want to give me why I should be. -- isis 09:48 Dec 22, 2002 (UTC)
No. I don't want you to be offended. I was just wondering if you would be (esp. since we have the new user name policy and all). --mav

You've renamed Topology Glossary to Topology glossary. But there are large numbers of redirects to Topology Glossary, and, as I'm sure you realise, redirects to redirects don't work. So could you please fix these redirects, or change the page name back to Topology Glossary (which was a perfectly good name for the glossary - it's not an article about topology glossaries, so the usual naming conventions don't apply). --Zundark 10:58 Dec 22, 2002 (UTC)

I'll fix it. The only reason why I moved it was to preseve the history after another user did a crude copy/cut/redirect job. --mav

Hi mav,

you just removed 1911 encyc material from Danelaw, saying they claim copyright on this material. Wikipedia is full of 1911 encyc material, and this was always considered OK from a copyright point of view. Do we have a new opinion on this topic? -- JeLuF

I should hope that the other eb1911 material we have is from a source that hasn't modified it so that they can claim copyright. I personally think that the claim of copyright is bogus since all they did was a find and replace on some arcane words. But my opinion on their claim doesn't negate their claim. Even if it were from a pur public domain source I still would have removed it since it was data dumping (no effort to integrate the text into the pre-existing article). --mav

--- ++mav sorry about pissing in your corn flakes

More and better apologies embeddied it textTwo16

There is no edit war happening in horoscope: just look at the ratio of my talk:horoscope to horoscope posts. My comments were extensive and thoughtful

Here is an example about your reposting of those paragraphs: I will examine this starting with the third paragraph:

Using an ephemeris and a table of houses an astrologer calculates relative positions of the sun, the moon, and the planets for specific time and place in order to errect a horoscope. This diagram, called a chart is a stylized map of the heavens. The sun or the earth is placed in the centre with the remaining elements around the outside depending on wheather the ephemeris was heliocentric or geocentric. Different systems of tri-secting arcs produce houses of different size. The calculation of a horoscope is a complex but purely technical skill normally carried out computer software.

This writing is concise. It opens important entries needed to understand astrology. It can be built upon. It And it does an adequte job of NPOV.

In astrology, .... strongly implied by astologer

a horoscope is a chart or diagram representing the positions of the planets and other celestial bodies at the time of an event ... compare... with calculates relative positions of the sun, the moon, and the planets for specific time and place in order to errect a horoscope. This diagram, called a chart is a stylized map of the heavens.

In western astrology, the event is most commonly a person's birth...underinformative. True but trite The term horoscope is derived from Greek words meaning, "a look at the hours."...OK but clunky

Believers in astrology consider the construction of a horoscope to be a highly complex and technical skill ... actually it is: differential calculus, logarithms, sexigesimal mathematical notation, corrections of ephemeris data for latitude, longitude, time zone, sidereal time, the tilt of earth's axis. This sentence makes me imagine Barbie saying "Math Is Hard" hardly npov. Which it is in the 3rd paragraph

and today they usually carry out this task using computer software ... yes! eliminate those tedious exacting calculations ( many in a base 60 numerical system so a calculator will not be helpful) because the rote mathematic is tedious. Also in the third paragraph

Skeptics, however, point out that empirically, there is zero correlation of the kind that astrologers claim exists between the heavens and earthly affairs (see the article on western astrology and external links therein) ... many astologers do not subscribe to this metaphysic; therefore it is a category error. Noble as this attempt to save the innocents might be, it needs to be revamped because it reduces astrology to a monolithic pseudo-science. What ever it is - it certainly is not monolithic.

Thus, there is no objective method that can be used to determine which method of casting a horoscope is correct.....Asking which Technique is the correct one is the pseudoscience equivalant of asking which is correct among quantum mechanics, reletivity and newtonian mechanics.

and disagreements among practitioners can only be settled by using anecdotal evidence or appeals to authority.....those astrologers must be rubes if they can't find any other way to resovle their differences. NPOV

Practitioners of western and Chinese astrology, for example, do not agree on how to cast horoscopes....the important thing is that they use planetary positions to errect a 2-dimentional representation of the heavens that has meaning to them. They use different techniques, start with different philosophies and have differing emphasis. The phrasing is clunky.

Onward.What i did was wrong. I'm only 4 days old and learning the cultural values I want to uphold. I'm sorry for the troubles I've caused.

Two16 wrote: "read talk :horoscope, read the article, look at the versions before changing. It is not enough to repost the first two paragraph from last version. If won't read any of the things don't edit it."

Now why the hell would I have to read an article's talk just to remerge (not revert) some text?

216.If text was rewritten from those 2 paragraph they would be redundant. Synomyn and diction correction are opaque to visual editing from history. Falsehood. Advocacy. non-NPOV. Clarity. and more.

And who are you to lecture me on just what I can and can not do?

216.The answer is wikipedian

Unbelievable. I didn't see anything which was a major duplication when I restored what I saw as a decent introductory paragraph.

216.There was much duplication. You don't still think it was a deccent introductory paragraph, do you?

BTW, both of your deletetions were marked as minor edits which is a banable offense.

216.Sorry for the offence

If I were in as a foul mood as I am now when I saw it I would have followed the letter of policy and blocked your IP.

216.You were posting too many pages too fast to be doing a perfect job on every edit. I was angered by by the repost and that it grew when i couldn't leave a message on your page. I am sorry for leaving you an ungratfuI and graceless message. have only been here for a couple of days but already I know the amount of work you do. The depth, breth and length of your contribution and dedication are inspiring (seeUser:Maveric149)

Eclecticology please do do a rewrite

216.Electicology has already been called in !

the current article is a major mess

216 No, its not. Your foul mood will pass

and all the above talk is sapping people's efforts to write brilliant prose. --mav

216.Too true.Luckily we have some able prose from astoName.

I've already left a message for you on your talk page. Thank your for your kind words about my contributions in general. :) --mav

Mav- Thanks for the note on the talk page, I'm glad you approve of my EB imports. I think I'm hitting a good formula, and some of the shorter EB articles seem to make very good Wikipedia entries (the longer ones generally have outdated stuff the needs rewritten with the NPOV in mind). I appreciate the comment, you have made my day :) Smelialichu 13:06 Dec 22, 2002 (UTC)

You're welcome - keep up the great work! --mav

Hey Mav, is the problem that the nude pic (of Jenna Jameson) is illegal or that it's not under fair use? I checked all the rules on "Upload file" and I didn't see anything wrong with nudity :-)

Well, anyway, thanks for editting, it probably wasn't appropriate anyway. Thanks for editting some of my other stuff too, btw, you made it better.

I don't have problems with the nudity so long as it is relevant. For example when we have an article on a famous artwork that was of a nude then we should have a picture of it (like Michelangelo's David). However, if the subject of the article is a person and not the depiction of that person in art then it really isn't relevant to have a nude photo of them. But the main reason why the image was removed is because it is almost certainly covered by a copyright that will be defended by owner and for the above reason isn't fair use. We might be able to crop the photo just to show her face and maybe provide an external link to her official website (which will have plenty of nude photos of her). --mav