Talk:Sahaja Yoga

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Correction to Information on Marriage Forms

{{editprotected}} The Marriage section currently states "Sahaja Yoga hosts a voluntary arranged marriage system. In India those interested need to fill in a form detailing their backgrounds." There are 2 problems with this: firstly, the page referenced has been blanked and should be changed to an archived version; secondly, the words 'In India' should be removed as this is an international site and the page does not mention that the forms are only for people in India.--Simon D M (talk) 10:59, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

If the site no longer states that then it shouldn't be used as a source. Also the mirror of the source mentions the marriages being held in India. Sfacets 11:02, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Firstly, the page was on the site for 2 years and gives important information. Secondly, there is no harm in mentioning that the marriages are held in India, but one should not suggest that the forms only apply to those living in India. Indeed the form asks for nationality as well as country of residence (as well as income in dollars). --Simon D M (talk) 12:30, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

The question isn't about what the forms ask - it is wether the forms are used in different countries. The mirror of the link you provided describes marriages held in India and is 2 years old. Conceviably something has changed in that period - which could be why the page no longer exists. Sfacets 12:56, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Correct, and the fact the form asks what country the applicant is in, demonstrates that it is used in different countries. The fact that such forms are used in different countries (eg the US) is further demonstrated by thispage. A similar marriage form can also be found on the Romanian SY site and is dated 2007.--Simon D M (talk) 13:04, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

No, it shows that people of different nationalities got married in India that year. Add a real reference if you have one. Sfacets 13:06, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

That people of different nationalities get married in India is exactly what I have been saying all along. However, thispage shows that forms are also used for marriages in the US. --Simon D M 13:14, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

So use that link. Sfacets 13:41, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

That link does not link to the forms. --Simon D M 13:51, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Too bad you can't have it both ways then. Sfacets 13:53, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

On the contrary, the originally suggested link is valid. That validity is supported, and your objections overridden, by the other links. --Simon D M 15:37, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

But it isn't valid... since it is no longer on the website. Sfacets 21:55, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Webpages disappear for all sorts of reasons, and their disappearance doesn't make the information they contained invalid. If a page is still available through the Wayback machine then it's still verifiable. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 22:03, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

N Edit declined. No consensus at this time. Sandstein 06:38, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

Linking to a webarchive is perfectly acceptable according to Wikipedia policy. It's interesting that after being up for over 2 years, the page suddenly got blanked when WP linked to it. It's as if somebody has got something to hide. --Simon D M 13:31, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

Yes, Kennedy would agree. Sfacets 08:51, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

This SY page mentions that 82 couples were married in a Crhistmas Puja.[1] Even better, the Queensland Independent has an article on SY marriage.[2] Among other things it says:

• PEOPLE from all over the world were married last month, in a ceremony arranged by the Sahaja Yoga religious organisation at Olympic Park, Sydney. Australian Andrew Bonneau, 25, met his Austrian wife, Sweater Lachine, 23, the day before the wedding ceremony....Leader of Sahaja Yoga in Cairns, Sno Bonneau, said that of the thousands of applications received, only 180 were successful. The marriage ceremony has received much criticism from members of other religious groups....Long-time Sahaja Yogi, Judith Bowden, agreed that there were often massive challenges in making a Sahaja marriage work.

That should be a sufficient source for the existence of arranged marriages. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 18:38, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

I don't think Sfacets is quibbling about the arranged marriage sytem, rather that the same forms (and therefore system) is used in India as in the rest of the world. I've already provided evidence of the forms being used in other countries. The case is closed unless we need to go through a '2 systems' discussion similar to the previous '2 Bohdans' and '2 SY schools in India'. --Simon D M (talk) 11:05, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

You provided no evidence that form were utilized in other countries. Sfacets 10:43, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

You need to read more carefully, I have already stated above that the fact the form asks what nationality the applicant is and what country the applicant is in, demonstrates that it is used in different countries by different nationalities. The fact that such forms are used in different countries (eg the US) is further demonstrated by thispage. A similar marriage form can also be found on the Romanian SY site and is dated 2007. Like the 2 Bohdans and the 2 India schools, you know just as well as I do that there is only one system. --Simon D M (talk) 10:08, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

1. There is no form on the first link. 2. Second link point on a blank page. 3. We do not understand "2 bodhans" "2 india schools" etc… 4. A suggestion : India = one country / Pakistan = another country = 2 countries differents nationalities possible cqfd.--Agenor 77 (talk) 10:15, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

1) The forms are referred to. 2) It links to an Excel spreadsheet with the form on, the same one as is on the International site, if you don't have Excel view it in html here. 3) Previous spurious objections. 4) If you are trying to suggest that the forms are only used in the Indian subcontinent then it's news to me that it includes LA and Romania. C'mon guys, give it up, you're not doing yourselves any favours by fighting to suppress a truth that we all know: there's one system, it operates worldwide, it involves the use of forms filled in by the applicant and a leader. Here's another link to the forms on the international site: http://www.sahajayoga.org/swan/view/swan_569_2006.asp - go check it quick before the powers that be hide it. Again, no mention that it's only for Indians, or denizens of the Greater Indian Subcontinent (includes LA and Romania). --Simon D M (talk) 11:14, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

No fighting, it is only in your mind. Nobody try to hide anything true here. Just avoiding guys turning upside down everything, I can even say that I got married in Sahaja Yoga. This suggestion has been done by a very good friend. I felt in my heart that he was giving me a good advice. So, I did it. Shri Mataji introduced us to each other (my futur wife and I). We were both pleased appreciating eahc other and then decided to accept (because we could refuse incase you'll try to make people think that it is forced). We are now married since 16 years. 16 year of happiness in a solid and trustfull mariage :) I really have hesitate to write down my reply here, because it's quite personnal and no one wish to talk with someone who will dirt every single word of his own testimony. But in another way, as we can find here people who really dedicated their entire life to spoil such a great hope for humanity, peace giving and love giving, I felt better to give a real testimony. --Agenor 77 (talk) 12:16, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

No problem with that, Mataji did arrange marriages personally, and some of them turned out happy, no doubt about it. However, I'm sure you'd agree that the proportion personally arranged has reduced over time and is not many today, especially since Mataji's 'retirement'. The system referred to on the various links is one international system that includes the use of forms, a practice that has been going on for more than 2 decades. I even cited the official website as saying that Mataji matches the couples in this system, although we all know nowadays that is not true, and in fact it hasn't been true for over 2 decades (although those being matched did not know this). Of course one can argue that all things are done by the Goddess, but that's another issue. I've never suggested that SY marriages are forced, although sometimes there is considerable pressure on people. And I agree that many good Sahaja Yogis have dedicated their entire lives to what they believe is the great hope for humanity, peace and love. --Simon D M (talk) 13:49, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

Either your research on SY aren't complete etiher you misandesrtood your obesrvations/notes because it is not "some of them turned out happy" but most of all of them :) Therefore I don't enjoy to work here on wikipedia, because there is too many people who knows how to spoil good things by cunningly biase the main things by editing article in a tricky maner. --Agenor 77 (talk) 16:17, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

People editing articles in a tricky manner? Yes, that is a problem. Category:Wikipedia sockpuppets of Sahajhist ·:· Will Beback ·:· 20:48, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

My reply is here [[3]] Sahajhist 22:41, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

The official line is that they are 99% or 95% successful. A year or 2 ago G de K sent round a message admitting that the breakdown rate was around 35% in the first year (I forget the exact figure). Many of those that don't break down are because those in the marriage are gritting their teeth through what they believe is a test by God and/or because they have children. The latter issue doesn't go away even after the couple have left Sahaja Yoga and is discussed in Coney's book. When just one spouse leaves, obviously there are other problems. There are problems outside of SY as well, but these aren't being covered up to the same degree. --Simon D M (talk) 11:13, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

Religion organization category

• Shri Mataji has made us aware that all the religions are from the same principle and are to be respected by all of us. She has founded a global religion, Vishwa Nirmala Dharma, which is the innate pure religion, relating to the core experience at the roots of all religions, and She grants this experience to those who ask for it. It is Self-Realization. As a result of Her teaching, many rituals, dogmas or prejudices about religion have been corrected. We respect all the incarnations, prophets and the realized souls of the past. The universal character of this worship can be seen in the Sahaja Yoga publications such as Bible Enlightened, Islam Enlightened and Geeta Enlightened and this culture of spiritual tolerance and understanding can be verified from thousands of Shri Mataji's speeches. [4]
• There can be only one Creator for the whole humanity. Hence, there can be only one religion and only one GOD. Our Holy Mother brought forth this vision, that all human beings are the children of one Almighty God. Shri Mataji says the world needs to be transformed and elevated from this divided world to the higher level of existence, where there will be a single religion "Vishwa Nirmala Dharma" (the religion based only on humanity) which will combine all the highest expressions of the great religion of the past with a more comprehensive scientific understanding of the underlying forces of life. This is a Religion that starts with Self-Realization and is based on Divine love, which is spread all over... in every creation, in every country and in the whole world ...and everyone can feel it through Self-Realization. A religion, which is based on love, joy, unity, collectivity, morale, ethics, and purity, which will lead to a healthy, integrated and balanced life and a balanced Society in turn. [5]

SY is a religion, by its own statements. It's obviously an organization. So the category:Religion organizations appears accurate. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 04:29, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

I wonder, because I'm not aware of all these rules here, how can we say this is not an organization ? Give me example of religion which aren't, according to you or wiki, an organiszation please, to let me undertsand your point and why it is so important to put etiket on this matter ?--Agenor 77 (talk) 09:28, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

Sfacets deleted the category:Religion organizations from the article, saying that it was an "inaccurate category". I fail to see how it's inaccurate. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 16:58, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

By saying "[...]this is not an orgnization" I was speacking in general. So if you prefere "what's the point that allow one to assert that "this is an organization" and "this is not an organization" tehrefore I was asking you to give an example about what it is considerate as a non organizationate religion according you / wiki rules / the system here ??? --Agenor 77 (talk) 22:58, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

I'm not sure I follow your question. The relevant question here is whether SY is a religious organization. I say that it is, based on sources that call it a religion. Do you disagree with those sources? ·:· Will Beback ·:· 03:09, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

What do you mean by "religious organization ? --Agenor 77 (talk) 08:58, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

Clearly there is an organization. There are governing committees like the WCASY, the VND, the LET, etc, run by people with organizational titles like "national leader". There are schools, hospitals, websites, ashrams, pujas, marriage ceremonies, publications, forms, etc. If there's a hierarchy or property, then there's an organization. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 10:13, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

And what is bad or wrong within that ? --Agenor 77 (talk) 16:31, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

Nothing at all. I was just explaining why I restored the category. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 02:28, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

Its just semantics. 'Movement', 'religious organization', all much the same. Yogiwallah (talk) 20:43, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

To an extent that is true, although Mataji was still denying SY had any organisation in 1990 (see Hinduism Today, October 1990). For much of the 1970s there may have been some truth in this, but it was still a new religious movement. --Simon D M (talk) 09:20, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

The above comment appears to be confusing. The subject paragraphs in the beginning are clear in their explanation about the noble cause of Sahajayoga. The interpretation as per individuals convenience is not welcome.--Commwatch 19:14, 15 December 2007 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Commwatch (talk • contribs)

Use of Primary Sources

The name Sahaja Yoga has been trademarked in the US by Vishwa Nirmala Dharma although the term goes back at least to the 15th Century Indian mystic Kabir.[6] [7] There has recently been significant expenditure on legally protecting the term in Europe.[8]

Sfacets deleted the latter sentence saying it was "comment on a primary source". I'd welcome comment from neutral editors on what uses of primary sources are acceptable, what constitutes 'comment' and whether that is acceptable. --Simon D M (talk) 17:36, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

Have reviewed WP:OR, there is no doubt that the Wikipedia passage agrees with the primary source. --Simon D M (talk) 17:08, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

The Problem with Fundamentalist Christian Editors Editing Against Sahaja Yoga

The problem with fundamentalist Christian editors is that they are have serious NPOV issues and intentions behind all their edits, even if they are following the rules. Because Sahaja Yoga is a moderate and tolerant movement it is often attacked by those on the extremities. Practitioners of Sahaja Yoga respect the fundamental right for all to have their own POV however fundamentalism is one thing that is not tolerated and will always be spoken out against. Sahaja Yoga does have some views that would be considered unusual to people of the main stream, and it does question the status-quo in a way that is appropriate in a free thinking and democratic world. For a long time fundamentalist Christianity has had problems with Sahaja yoga for just this reason. It makes sense that fundamentalist Christians and fundamentalists in general feel threatened by the philosophical, historical and social questions Sahaja Yoga raises. In general fundamentalist Christians are against all forms of eastern practices such as yoga not to mention all other religions and are by definition intolerant and arrogant people. Perhaps editors of such persuasion think they are doing Gods work by attacking any other movement or religion, no matter how moderate, that is not compatible with their own belief?

Could all those fundamentalist Christians editors on a crusade against Sahaja Yoga stop editing the Sahaja Yoga Page? Such editors are tampering with the neutrality of this article by using the rules of wikipedia and are thus attacking the fundamental democratic principles behind Wikipedia itself. Should this continue and the neutral editors of the article continue to be attacked, it will not be long before we will bring the fundamental beliefs and true identities of such editors to the attention of the wikipedia Authority. Teamantime (talk) 01:13, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

What are you talking about? Please address editing of the article rather than the faiths of the editors. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 02:14, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

You know exactly what I am talking about.Teamantime (talk) 02:47, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

I don't know what you're talking about and, unless it concerns editing this article, I don't care. Please explain you deletions. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 06:23, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

You used one sentence from the Bible in reply - I dont personally see how that makes you a 'fundamentalist' or even a Christian. Yogiwallah (talk) 20:37, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

Please explain why you made all of these deletions of source material. If you think something is in the wrong section them move it- don't delete it. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 02:15, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

And another major deletion. "very bad English".[9] If there's a grammaticl error then fix it, don't delete an entire section full of sourced material just because there's a mistake in grammar. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 02:31, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

Fundamentalism is only a problem if it is affecting editing adversely, in that regard I only see evidence of SY fundamentalism, no other. --Simon D M (talk) 15:04, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

The interpretation of Sahajayoga which is moderate and tolerant is being interpreted as per the concenience of Anti Sahajayoga editors. This interpretation as per Anti Sahajayoga activist's convenience is the core problem. --Commwatch 19:25, 15 December 2007 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Commwatch (talk • contribs)

Where are they ?

Is it true that all the editors who tryed to tell the truth about SY as been banned from wikipedia ? --Agenor 77 (talk) 18:11, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

I've replied on Agenor's talk page. Article talk pages are for discussing improvements to articles. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 21:15, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

Criticisms section

The paragraph about the Rome school is essentially pasted from the article about the Sahaja India school. Repeating it here is using undue weight. It should be removed from this article. Freelion (talk) 15:54, 23 December 2007 (UTC)

It's not in the ISPS article. There is a discussion about moving the list of schools to this article, as they fit within SY but not ISPS. --Simon D M (talk) 18:23, 23 December 2007 (UTC)

The move has been completed. --Simon D M (talk) 21:00, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

Criticisms section - Dr Shehovych

This reference does not contain any criticism of the movement or its founder. I do not see the relevance of it being in this article. Freelion (talk) 15:21, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

• Also in 2001, Australia's AAP reported that a general practitioner named Dr Bohdan Shehovych had been fined after grabbing a Sahaja Yoga critic "round the head and dragged him over a backyard fence"[107] The physician had been part of a group delivering a letter to the critic from Nirmala Srivastava[107]. In 2004 an Australian medical practitioner[31] called Dr Bohdan Shehovych was made a World Leader in Sahaja Yoga and appointed to the World Council for the Advancement of Sahaja Yoga. [32]

If the person had been fined for speeding, etc, then it would be unrelated and if the person were a minor follower then it would be less significant. But he was fined for attacking a critic of SY, and he became a world leader of the governing body of SY. It's relevant and significant. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 19:27, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

"The governing body" ? I really don't understand how you can write about SY as we can all see the poor understanding you have... But no need to answer to me, you told me on my talk page as much wikipedia doesn't seek for truth but just need to fill up pages and pages... fundraising, "change the world, all this... yes yes we know now !!! I guess I will be not back for a moment LOL --Agenor 77 (talk) 22:40, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

The " World Council is the highest authority in Sahaja Yoga...the World Council, will be the final deciding authority in Sahaja Yoga collectives...The final authority is the World Council. Everything else emanates from the World Council. ".[10] ·:· Will Beback ·:· 23:10, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

See supra --Agenor 77 (talk) 23:21, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

If it is relevant to include information about people who have a close relationship with the movement, then I propose a new section on Simon Dicon Montford, who has had a close relationship with the movement for the last 10 years or more. As a vocal critic of the movement, it would be relevant to highlight his pattern of behaviour. Freelion (talk) 03:13, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

As soon as Motford is appointed to the WCASY then his background will become relevant to this article. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 05:51, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

Actually, and according wiki and it vision of truth, it is just needed to source whatever one wants to add on articles --Agenor 77 (talk) 06:02, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

Assertions must be relevant to the topic, be presented with a neutral POV, and be verifiable using reliable sources. Within those limits, and constrained further by an alphabet soup of policies, material on anyone is allowed. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 07:09, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

My neutral POV is that Wiki, the gift of knowledge, doesn't seek to record the truth [11] What a gift of knowledge actually (ref on every page). --Agenor 77 (talk) 08:14, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

Criticisms section - Sources must support comment

I've removed the following: "Nevertheless the writer was surprised by the "openness" of the practitioners and suggested the possibility that "they genuinely have nothing to hide". He said "one of the key definitions of a cult is the rigour with which it strives to recruit new members" and remarked on the lack of any sales tactics at the Sahaja Yoga program he attended." Firstly, I don't see what this is doing in a Criticisms section. Secondly, the use of the source is selective (mentions 'nothing to hide' possibility but not 'PR charm offensive' possibility) and exaggerates ('lack of any sales tactics' is not the same as having 'had more trouble getting rid of a double- glazing salesman').--Simon D M (talk) 23:50, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

If you want to cherry pick from references to create a critical POV, then it is relevant to balance these criticisms with other balancing statements from the same source. Otherwise you are trying to make a source appear critical when in fact it is more balanced. The fact is, the writer did suggest the possibility that "they genuinely have nothing to hide".

The writer set out to prove or disprove one qualification of Sahaja Yoga being a cult and dedicated a whole paragraph to make the point that there was a lack of any sales tactics. I'll remove the word "nevertheless" if you like, but the rest of it should stand. "lack of any sales tactics" does not exaggerate his concluding paragraph. Freelion (talk) 02:44, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

I agree with Freelion. The writer set out to prove or disprove one qualification of Sahaja Yoga being a cult and dedicated a whole paragraph to make the point that there was a lack of any sales tactics so it should stand --Agenor 77 (talk) 08:59, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

I agree with both Freelion and Agenor on this issue. It's best, when summarizing a source, to include the the range of views expressed. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 20:24, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

OK, I've put all Crace material together, removed the POV comment/re-wording and balanced the cherry-picked positive possibility with the other possibility that was suggested. For the record, it wasn't me who included this article and gave it such prominence. The article relates to cult allegations but says little about criticisms. --Simon D M (talk) 21:47, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

Undid the above revision because it created an unwieldy paragraph. There is no need to quote the source verbatim when a neutral summary can do the job. The paraphrased wording did not express a POV. Also the reference to allegations about Sahaja Yoga making money belongs in the criticisms section. If you like I will add the other possibility to the author's suggestion (Either their openness is a PR charm offensive, or they genuinely have nothing to hide.) Freelion (talk) 03:29, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

Currently the 'cult allegations' section is in the Criticisms section. --Simon D M (talk) 11:00, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

Rewrote "surprise" although can anyone else verify that it is not expressing a POV to say that the author was surprised? It is easier for comprehension to separate the allegation of "cult" and the allegation of "making money" into separate paragraphs as they are different issues. There is no reason to bunch up all the references from one source into one paragraph.Freelion (talk) 12:09, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

Also, does anyone else agree that the following:

"So where was the aggressive recruitment squeeze? The only hints of pressure were the listings of weekly London meetings in the programme and an overhead sign saying that Shri Mataji would be appearing at Holland Park on Monday. As sales tactics go, I've had more trouble getting rid of a double- glazing salesman."

can easily and without POV be summarised as:

"the writer... remarked on the lack of any sales tactics at the Sahaja Yoga program he attended."

Freelion (talk) 12:17, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

Yoga template

Why and how come yoga templet was used in this article and why not cult templet ? --Cult free world (talk) 07:45, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

While personally I see no inaccuracy in calling Sahaja Yoga a cult (from just about any definition), the term is very controversial and would cause unnecessary conflict. Perhaps the most neutral term for Sahaja Yoga is 'new religious movement' and it could have an nrm template like these: Category:New religious movement navigation templates --Simon D M (talk) 11:00, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

Practice emphases

mind control and brainwashing is very much part of practice. here is the reference of the same [12]

--Cult free world (talk) 14:28, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

As far as Wikipedia is concerned, Amazon reviews don't count as reliable sources. --Simon D M (talk) 11:02, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

The material has been thoroughly vetted by the scholarly community. This means published in peer-reviewed sources, and reviewed and judged acceptable scholarship by the academic journals.

This is what WP:RS say's, can you cite the specific policy which prohibits Amazon review as “un-reliable” however there are many reference of cult watch groups (rick-ross etc) and some government reports as well, that can be used I guess.

However there is no reliable source for the claim made currently, as it is taken directly from the group site, which is a primary source, and hence cannot be accepted, however a secondary source for the same is acceptable, as in case of above reference, which is a reliable source as per wiki policy.

If my knowledge is incorrect, please correct it.

--Cult free world (talk) 08:37, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

It's more an issue of the Amazon reviews being self-published with the minumum of editing (ie only editing out reviews that generate complaints or break Amazon's policies). Basically anybody can write a review on Amazon and say pretty much what they like, so such reviews hardly make good material to base an encyclopedia on. --Simon D M (talk) 11:08, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

Mind control and brainwashing is part of practice emphasis, agreeing to your view on Amazon review, analysis of rick-ross, and other government report can be used, as a reference to the statement that practice emphasis contains element of mind control and brainwashing. If all editor's agree to these references i will update the article.

--Cult free world (talk) 11:42, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

see below. --Simon D M (talk) 12:07, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

hi Sfacets,

With respect to this revert [13], kindly point out where the discussion is ? i have started a topic on talk page, but could not find any input from you, will you be kind enough to provide us, your opinion as why you think that request for citation is not appropriate ? if self realization is practice, then why not mind control and brainwashing ? as far as i think, self realization is an exceptional claim, and primary source cannot be used for such a claim, where as for brainwashing and mind control, there are enough secondary sources available. please provide your input

--Cult free world (talk) 10:13, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

Self-realization can hardly be said to be a practice, but you could say that some of the practices emphasise self-realisation, or at least the SY conception of 'self realisation'. Maybe the template should just go. --Simon D M (talk) 11:08, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

There is no problem with the templet, till all information is presented, both self-realization and brainwashing.

--Cult free world (talk) 11:42, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

I doubt the SYogis will accept it, but then they fight tooth and nail against the exposition of well-known facts like that Mataji is worshipped by them. Saying that SY is involved in brainwashing is POV, but so is the idea that SY has anything to do with 'self realisation' - NPOV requires that all significant POVs are represented. I think the view that SY is mind control is significant enough to be included, if you can dig out the reliable sources. However, I think the best place for it is under the Criticisms section, possibly under the Cult Allegations subsection. I think the yoga template should go because the article is about a 'new religious movement' which is much more than the 'yoga' on which it draws. --Simon D M (talk) 12:07, 3 January 2008 (UTC)