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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Space Cadet (talk | contribs) at 15:58, 6 February 2004. The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Earlier discussion:

History vs. Nationalism: One must conclude that those who assert that the city was known by its Polish name through most of its history are motivated not by a desire to present a historic story, but rather are ethnic nationalists, zealots or idealogues who cannot bear to entertain the thought that this city was predominantly German for many centuries, and at the height of its pre-World War II development was 96 percent German. Even these zealots must know that the city's records, and during the interwar period its currency and stamps, were written or inscribed in German. They must know that all of the discussions about the city at Versailles and in the League of Nations -- and indeed at Tehran, Yalta and Potsdam -- referred to the city by its German name. The must further be aware that Nobel laureate Günter Grass's novels are referred to as "The Danzig Triology," not the Gdansk triology. There is no arguing about the fact that today the city is called Gdansk and is inhabited by Poles. There should be no arguing either about the fact that, before March 31, 1945, it was called Danzig and was inhabited by Germans. The story of how the ethnically German city of Danzig was transformed into the Polish city of Gdansk is a fascinating and in many way disturbing one that contains lessons for all of humanity. I suggest that those who cannot bear to examine this story in its entirety -- and indeed the story of all the annexations and expulsions after WWII -- are in no better positiion intellectually or morally than those who brought about the German aggression against Poland in 1939. -- Steven Anderson, author of "Revenge: The Expulsion of the Germans," Jan. 19, 2004.


Voting on the compromise

Are you in favour of the proposed naming compromise (the city referred to as Danzig in the 1793-1945 period, Gdansk otherwise)?

YES

  • Halibutt
  • john 09:16, 24 Jan 2004 (UTC)
  • Nico, although I still think we could discuss the pre-1793 usage a little bit more
  • Szopen Yes, with addition that alternative name should be added in parantheses, t avoid confusion.
  • Guillermo3, no parantheses in paragraphs were Danzig is used.

NO

  • User:Space Cadet
  • User:Yeti - What about other cities with similar history: Vilnius, Lviv, Brezlau, Koenigsberg, Bratislava and many, many others?

abstention

  • Baldhur; an abstention may be useless, but after proposing a vote I wanted to participate

--- When do we finish the voting?Halibutt

Famous people born in Gdansk/Danzig/Gydanytzk/Dantiscum

This is the list deleted by Nico for some reason. I've re-inserted some of the most popular names (Tusk, for instance) and left the artists for further discussion.

I understand that some of the artists may not be as popular in the mass-media as, let's say, Caravaggio or Breughel family, but still they are famous artists. And I don't see a reason for which Nico considers them to be less important than Bernhard von Reesen.

Disclaimer: I moved it here not to provoke anyone to start another edit war.Halibutt 01:37, 24 Jan 2004 (UTC)

I explained why they were deleted. They are posted by caius2ga, obviously only to balance the list because most of the famous persons from Danzig were Germans. I've never heard about any of those people, and made a quick search in google for a couple of them. For instance, this Marek Rogulus Rogulski gave 27 hits [1]. I cannot see why he should be listed with people like Günter Grass etc. Nico 01:59, 24 Jan 2004 (UTC)

But Grass is also at least 25% Pole, though he is German language writer. Cautious 16:10, 29 Jan 2004 (UTC)
So why did you delete all the others? Michalczeski returns with 8140 hits, Donald Tusk with 11.600 hits, Kolberger with 'only' 1320... Just comparing this with this Bernhard von Reesen you left unchanged (124 hits) makes me think that the reasons for your deleting all Polish names are not as clear as you state.Halibutt 03:36, 24 Jan 2004 (UTC)
Just an idea: how many return google hits do you propose as a borderline for famous people? Is 5.000 ok with you?Halibutt
I admit not all of them should be deleted. I didn't check all of them. Sorry. -- Nico 11:12, 24 Jan 2004 (UTC)

As far as the politicians, this should be worked out. Clearly we shouldn't have not famous people, but we shouldn't privilege not very famous Germans over not very famous Germsn. john 09:16, 24 Jan 2004 (UTC)

Now I've checked all of them, and the majority gives hits under 100. Here are the complete list, though:

13 [2]
1,250 [3]
5,700 [4]
108 [5]
  • Donald Tusk, b. 1957, politician, jornalist and historian
5,530 [6]
68 [7]
51 [8]
10 [9]
62 [10]
27 [11]
6 510 [12]

I guess at least four of them should be included in the list. -- Nico 11:26, 24 Jan 2004 (UTC)

Well, I think our Polish colleagues would be best-positioned to determine if the others are famous or not. A lack of google results is not necessarily dispositive. john 22:50, 24 Jan 2004 (UTC)

What about a new article Famous people from Gdansk listing all with mor then let's say 50 google-hits? 82.83.0.47 00:23, 25 Jan 2004 (UTC)
My mother gives more than 50 google hits ;-) (although she is not from Danzig) Nico 13:21, 25 Jan 2004 (UTC)
How about answering to my question then?Halibutt
I think this is rather silly. In this instance, I'd say we should defer to the knowledge of Polish editors as to whether or not these people are sufficiently famous. john 19:31, 25 Jan 2004 (UTC)

In defense of my "NO" vote. We shouldnt be sentimental about the encyclopedic articles. I respect and cherich all the German culture in the present Polish lands. During my last trip to Poland I made about 900 pictures of Prussian architecture, Prussian ruins, traces of Prussian influence on these lands. I just freak out about the criterion for this or that name, to be the number of entries in thr Google. In any English Encyclopedia, especially post 2000 the history of Gdansk uses the Polish name. This is a perfect way to avoid confusion, and also to avoid a dangerous precedent leading to using German names for every northern and western Polish city, village, river, lake etc. Plus this precedent would lead to complete chaos in history articles about Hungary, Bohemia, Moravia, Slovakia, Romania, Ukraine, Belarus and Lithuania. My family lived for generations in the Polish city of Lwow, but for thr sake of professionalism I'm willing to leave te current name L'viv, even when describing the Polish history of thr city. We should take example for Brittanica and other encyclopedia on this one. A separate paragraph discussing the demographics of Gdansk, it's most popular name in English speaking world is necessary in my opinion. Brackets are not enough. Going further I propose existance of separate articles for Koenigsberg (Krolewiec), Tilsit (Tylza) etc., because the issue here is completely different than Gdansk, Elblag and Torun. Again, the deciding factor should be how other post 2000 encyclopedias deal with the subject, not clicks in Google!
Space Cadet 00:18, 28 Jan 2004 (UTC)

While Britannica calls it Gdansk throughout, the columbia encyclopedia is inconsistent - it calls it sometimes Danzig and sometimes Gdansk in the period in question. However, to be honest, this is a rather thorny issue. While Danzig and Gdansk are clearly the same name, the city alternately known as Bratislava, Pressburg and Pozsony is rather tougher - these names don't seem very similar to each other, and it's unclear whether Bratislava should be considered a new name created in 1919, or an old name returned to. While I would find it just barely acceptable to call the city Gdansk throughout the article, I do very strongly feel that the Free City as a political unit simply has to be called Danzig. It should also be mentioned (as Columbia does) that the city was universally known as Danzig (both to itself, and to English-speakers) throughout the 19th and early 20th centuries, and that the name Gdansk only returned in 1945. At any rate, I agree that the whole issue is problematic. I would say, though, that other articles which mention the city should generally call it Danzig when referring to it before 1945. Arthur Schopenhauser was born in Gdansk seems weird. As Szopen suggested, Arthur Schopenhauser was born in Danzig (Gdansk) seems a better way to do it. john 20:55, 29 Jan 2004 (UTC)

Economy

Economy of Gdansk has moved to Economy of Gdansk. Please write a short summary about the economy of Gdansk, five sentences would be great. Even after outsourcing, this article has still more than 34kB which cannot be handled by many browsers.

Then maybe we do not need tons of book references in Polish, if you have problems with the page size? Nico 07:27, 3 Feb 2004 (UTC)

To John:
Why does " Arthur Schopenhauser was born in Gdansk" seem weird? Mainly because the name is "Schopenhauer", without the "s". Everything else, is the long process of getting used to the new. It took Britannica about 8 years to make sure the consistency of using "Gdansk", in any reference, reached 100%. Columbia still takes it's time.
If we keep our efforts consistent, and make tools for gaining knowledge better and better, in 10 years only an ignorant will think that "Arthur Schopenhauer was born in Gdansk seems weird".
BTW, Szopen is a great guy but sometimes very emotional.
We cannot be. What if we make this exception for "Gdansk"? How are you going to handle "naming throughout history" in for example L'viv, Vilnius, Hrodna etc. What objective criterion are you going to find to determine when should a city be called by which name, when there just is no such criterion at all, that would work in any case (or at least in majority of most dominant cases). That's why it is a good idea to first spend as much time as necessary to explain the evolution of the demograpics in respect to class dependant language persuasion, as a function of popularity of certain name - German or Polish - in the English speaking world. This would quiet down all the cry babies. And then consistently use the agreed English name. Even if that English name was different 10, 20, 150 or 300 years ago.
Why should it seem weird for me to write "My grandmother was born in L'viv, lived in L'viv, was expelled from L'viv, visited L'viv in the 90'ties"? What good would it do to write : "My grandmother was born in Lemberg, lived in Lwów, was expelled from Lvov, visited L'viv in the 90'ties"? In a letter to a friend, perhaps, but not in the encyclopedia. Of course I can only imagine what would happen if I told my mom that "My grandmother was born in Lemberg". But these are emotions that do not belong in the encyclopedia. When I write to my friend of East Prussian descent I use both names (Polish and German) randomly. He seems to observe analogical rules. Again, emotions.
Hope I cleared up my stand on this.
I might not be able to visit WIKI for a while.
Space Cadet 01:14, 4 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Yeah, it does get tricky. I would suggest that the use of Lemberg for that city before 1918 and the use of Gdansk for that city before 1793 are roughly comparable - both are the name by which the city was known by the country of which it was a part, but were not in particular use by the inhabitants of the city. As such, I think it would be fine to say of a Polish person born in Lemberg that they were born in Lwów (L'viv). More notably, though, one should, in an article about World War I, note that the Russians entered Lemberg (L'viv) in late 1914, since that is what would be used in most history books. The article on Schopenhauer should say he was born in Danzig (Gdansk). The case for Danzig is, I think, made stronger by the fact that Danzig was not only the name of the city, but also the name of a sovereign state. (Ought we to also talk of Germany's annexation of Klaipeda in March of 1939?). I agree that the issue is tricky, especially when talking about cities that changed name several times in the twentieth century. But I think a policy of using the usual English name at the time, and having the current name in parentheses, is a good policy for how to do it in articles that are not specifically about the location. If you wish to insist on uniformity within the article about the location, I am willing to come to some sort of compromise (just so long as we keep it clear, for instance, that in 1919, Gdansk was taken from Germany and made into the Free City of Danzig.) Otherwise we have to refer to the Treaty of Bratislava of 1809, or the Battle of Slavkov u Brna. The Captiulation of Olomouc. The Congress of Ljubljana...you get the idea. john 07:25, 4 Feb 2004 (UTC)

The current formulation by Wik "(until 1945 known as Danzig)" looks good to me. john 06:33, 5 Feb 2004 (UTC)

I still feel fairly strongly that we should use historical names in context where appropriate. So, we should say Schopenhauer was born in Danzig, which is what he would've called it. A parenthetical note that this is "present-day Gdansk" is fine as well. And, to take a more clear-cut example, we should say that Byzantine events happened in Constantinople, not in Istanbul. --Delirium 06:39, Feb 5, 2004 (UTC)

well, the argument is that cities that changed their names are different from cities which translate their names, or where the dominant translation changes, or whatever. john 17:14, 5 Feb 2004 (UTC)
I think that is a quasi argument. Nico 17:22, 5 Feb 2004 (UTC)
I think we sometimes forget our responsibility to history when we worry about modern individuals. Whether or not someone's grandmother cares to recognize the name of the city that was in place when she was born there (no offense intended to any user or their family), the fact is that there were thousands and thousands of people who lived and died under that name. Keeping track of a city name that was in use for less than a decade, I can understand setting aside, but when we're talking about centuries, I think in fairness to the long-since dead (who have no one's close allegiance to give them voice here), we need to represent the names historically. I certainly understand the concerns of the Polish editors, but in this instance I think we need to be fair to those who lived in that city long before we and our grandmothers. Jwrosenzweig 17:29, 5 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Dear Jwrosenzweig,

No offense taken. All I was trying to emphasise is the danger of putting emotions into encyclopedia article. I have lots of emotional reasons of calling the city of my ancestors - "Lwów" for 800 years of it's history (not just my grandmother's time, please look it up before making a ridiculous statement), until 1990. I can spend lots of time and space arguing that the Ukrainian name makes no sense, because there was never a country Ukraine, Ukrainian language or nation. For what? "For our responsibility to history"? That's Demagogy (IMO). All it will create is chaos. Listing forever the horrible fates of Poles of Lwów, the brutally destroyed monuments of Polish history, cemetaries changed into wheat fields, all polish inscriptions removed from the buildings, catholic churches changed into barns etc.? The ones you call "Polish contributors" don't defend the "polish POV", but common sense, free of sentimentality, nostalgia and bias. BTW, I never declared myself as "a Polish contributor", so if you intentionally included me in that term, please don't do it again.
Out of curiosity, you really didn't know that Lwów became part of Poland, long before any German wandered to Gdańsk, did you?
Dear Delirium,
Why is "Danzig" a historical name and "Gdańsk" isn't? Because you have a strong hunch? Because you count the number of clicks on Google? Do those clicks represent encyclopedic entries?
"Present day Gdańsk" strongly suggests that the name "Gdańsk" never existed or was used before present day. John already explained to you, that this is not the case, therefore your Constantinople example is way off.
And what do You mean: "we should say Schopenhauer was born in Danzig, which is what he would've called it"? How do you know this? Wasn't he born and raised in Poland? Aren't you speculating too far in the past and isn't your speculation slightly biased?
Thank you for your time!
Sicerely,
Space Cadet 15:58, 6 Feb 2004 (UTC)

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