Talk:Al-Qaeda

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question

cit.:"Al-Qaeda has committed multiple acts of terrorism and is best known for planning and executing the September 11, 2001 attacks on New York's World Trade Center and The Pentagon."

wouldn't it be more logical to say that multiple acts of terrorism/terror have been committed in the name of al-quaida? since the article lead-in states that the organizational structure is not known, this would be a more apt expression. 84.184.204.67 21:33, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

Unless known Al-Qaeda members and leaders state that they were directly responsible publically, you're right. OverSS 18:26, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

I'm also with user 84.184.204.67 on that... you're correct, most attacks were carried "in the name of...".

But I'll go even further than that: I dare anyone to give me any proof that does'nt come from secret services that AT LEAST one major terror attacks was committed by Al Qaeda. I want links, names, facts, or anything else that can be verified by other people than secret service agents or politicians.

RE: Can we tone down the Anti Islam sentiment

Yes, Osoma Bin Laden IS A MUSlIM. He just doesnt follow your or any moderate version of Islam. Al-Queda follow the version of Islam of the past Islamic caliphates, Turks, Mongols, Arabs, Afghans, and Persians who offensively invaded, conquered, pillaged, and plundered most of the middle east, south asia, and parts of africa and europe. Within less than 100 years after the death of Mohhamed, the Arab Muslims (ie the earliest Muslims) started to offensively invade and wage Jihad on non-Muslims, hence a violent trait and a violent history which is irrefutable and solid Islamic history.

What Osama Bin Laden is doing is absolutely no different from what the earliest Muslims did in order to spread Islam and establish their caliphate. He is waging an offensive Jihad against non-Muslims and is killing innoccent people, which is more of the same for Islamic history and its 1000+ year timeline. Muslims killed pagans, idolaters, heathens, and infidels routinely for hundreds of years (reference: Chachnama/ Timurs autobiography/ Al-Beruni's works/ Aurangzeb / Khiljis / Armenian Genocide / Nuristanis / Taslam Aislam / Quran itself) and are continuing to do so.

As the quran states in chapter 9:

"After the sacred months have past, slay the idolaters wherever you find them".

and dont give me that historical-context excuse crap, because then the entire Quran must be taken into context including the "good stuff" such as "there is no compulsion in religion" which Mohhamed invented when he did not have any power.

what a neutral point of view.. it is like muslims are the only group in history caused violence. I think violence is a matter of human trait, not religion. There are many who are non-muslim and violent. Attila, Genghis Khan, numerous Crusaders - who killed many pagans as muslims did;).. now, let's take another look. though Genghis Khan has known for his violence, mongolian people loves him and thinks he was a good guy. similarly some magyars, turks, germans take Attila as a ferocious but great warrior. And crusaders, to some people they were great warriors and to others they were invaders, rapers,.. I respect your idea and hope you do as well. I believe every religion has peaceful ways and there must be no compulsion at all since it is a matter of belief. I hate what terrorist did in the past and yet this isn't because of religion but those people's violent nature, if there were no religion then they would find something else to claim as a reason. 14:58, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

So what are you saying? That since other groups apart from muslims have caused violence and disaster we can safely neglect the influence of militant religions like islam? Sure, you're entitled to believe that violence is a matter of human trait not religion but since you have no argument supporting your belief it becomes rather uninteresting. What you're saying in effect is that religion has no bearing on human conduct which is just plain nonsense. Regarding the relativistic point of view "to some people they were great warriors and to others they were invaders, rapers...", I can only remind you that the conclusion you're trying to pull doesn't work. To some the earth is round and to some it's flat. So what? Should we conclude then that the formation of the earth depends on your point of view? What about paedophilia? To some it's just good sex (the molesters) and to some it is both repugnant and extremely unethical. Should we conclude that since people disagree on this subject neither is right (or wrong)?

Characterization of first WTC attack as "largely ineffective"

Does anyone else think that characterization is too vague and should be adjusted to include the actual number of casualties, cost of property damage, and (perhaps) its signficance to the fundamentalist Jihad? Amysrobot 20:05, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Added the actual casualties. People can make their own value judgements of the effectivity of the attack. --Petercorless 03:04, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

He did it?

Anyone notice that The_Lizard_Wizard took credit for an Israeli hotel bombing? [1]

Living Persons Tag??

I looked through the archives to see if this question has been raised before; and seeing that it hasn't: why is the Biographies of Living Persons template on this article's talk page? This is the article on the group/organization/movement, not a biographic article on bin Laden or another person affiliated with the group. Is there another reason as to why the {{Blp}} is attached to this article? I'm really just curious. -Fsotrain⁰⁹ 21:14, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

Al-Qaeda UK??

Does anyone think the link Al-Qaeda UK is of any merit to the article at all? Lukelastic 20:56, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

It doesn't seem like a terribly serious site. And clearly not connected to any form of official al Qaeda stuff. If indeed 'official' is a meaningful term in this context. I see the link has been removed from the article, and support this decision. This article is here to provide an informative introduction to the terrorist organisation Al Qaeda, not to collect all miscellaneous information with the words 'Al Qaeda' in it on the internet. -- TinaSparkle 10:10, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for taking a look at it Tina... However, I do think its discussion of some serious issues is of some merit. Are the pages - now in a separate satire section - what you mean by 'It doesn't seem like a terribly serious site.'? I agree that the term 'official' is not very relevant; likewise, anyone can claim to represent al Qaeda and act as they please. Is this merely a philosophical distinction, or is it a relevant one when discussing al Qaeda? Lukelastic 14:41, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

Typo

Although it has appeared in some papers the name "Abu Taha al-Sudan" is erroneous and should be "Abu Taha al-Sudani". Tried to fix it but I don't have the credentials :) LDH 08:38, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

There are many, many, many different variations of Arabic names translated to English. It's been an especial problem with the Somali war. I have found it easier to simply make referrals/aliases than try to correct all variants. --Petercorless 03:06, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

The first country to seek the arrest of Bin Laden  ?

The first country in the world to seek the arrest of Osama bin Laden was Libya according to the Interpol Secretary General Ronald. K Noble http://www.interpol.int/Public/ICPO/speeches/SG20030416.asp Islampedia 02:49, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

utter presumtion - too much information, not enough facts

For such an important topic theres waaaay too much "This does not cite its references or sources", in fact this all seems to be party line opinion of Al-Qaeda.

People will use this as reference and i presume the people are who white washing here have done it with this in mind ... theres only one real reference indicating that things arent as shown in the media.

"An alternative theory, presented in the BBC film series "The Power of Nightmares", states that the name and concept of al-Qaeda was first used by the U.S. Department of Justice in January 2001"

theres a long history of government elements and false flag terrorism, its more than just a theory ... its a matter of fact. "manufactured consent"

but lets stick to PROVEN FACTS - youve listed 16 'suicide airjackers' ... many are STILL ALIVE and well at home, if even this isn't correct how much else can be.

its very simple ... you are alive or you are dead ...

youve listed 4 suicide bomber for 7/7 ... hows this a fact when there hasn't been a full investigation. yet again government tell media what to say, then youve let people repeat it here as fact.

Basically you list alot of things as fact, probably tryin to force history into compliance with an impressive amount of 'information'and its not proven its subjective.

the alternative theories on al-qaeda all quote sources and are cross referenced, with commentry by qualified individuals ... your theories are all unproven party line.

just because its in a history book, doesnt make it history —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 82.15.62.111 (talk) 15:19, 9 January 2007 (UTC).

I am starting add in references and to clean up text. The most glaring faux pas I found today was the mention of Al Qaeda beginning its "crusade" against the west. I changed the word to jihad. --Petercorless 03:08, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

Use of the term jihad

I do not agree jihad is a completely different concept Opinion of Islamic scholars on Jihad Islampedia 18:54, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

It's not utterly different concept in terms of miltary goals, but socio-linguistically, generally an Al Qaeda operative would use the word "crusade" as a pejorative description of Western/Christian imperialism, as it has been used to refer to the Ethiopians in Somalia, or the US in Iraq. Osama bin Laden certainly would never have a literal crusade, which is a war dedicated to the Christian cross and a fight against non-Christians or heretical Christians. He would have a jihad, which is a war to retake lands from non-Muslims or heretical Muslims. It is not "completely different," but it is still incorrect. --Petercorless 20:11, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

I agree crusade is incorrect. I do not agree that jihad is the term which is correct here. Sentences here should be written in a way to present all perspectives. Jihad is similar to crusade from the point of view of an extremist Alqaeda Member this should not be the term wikipedia uses cuz this will generalize the concept in the wrong direction. At least the different Opinion of Islamic scholars on Jihad should be made clear here with a link to make the sentences NPOV ( Take a look at the opinions on the link u we will see that it is difficult to link the term jihad with war. As a native arabic speaker I can not understand this wrong translation Islampedia 20:47, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

We can add "self-declared" to modify jihad, but that is what Osama bin Laden calls it himself: "It is a duty now on every tribe in the Arab Peninsula to fight, Jihad, in the cause of Allah and to cleanse the land from those occupiers." While there are also metaphorical "crusades" and spiritual (not violent) jihad, this is the way the term has been construed by the members of Al Qaeda, and fellow mujahideen. -- Osama Bin Laden "Declaration of War against the Americans Occupying the Land of the Two Holy Places" 1996

It is difficult to consider your reference as neutral, the owner of this irrelevant webpage is Israeli. However, if u see the title the term war is considered in the title which is more accurate and neutral than the term jihad which has another meaning . Yes the extremists use the term as equal to war but in wikipedia either war' should be used or jihad with a clear note on the other different opinions on the word 'jihad' because leaving it this way drives any Christian to think that jihad == holy war which is wrong. You can find this misunderstanding in many articles on the web some of them because the writers do not know the meaning of jihad' but many because writers are interested to keep jihad==holy war , the reasons for this are clear. To my knowledge, any Muslim who is not wahabi like Bin Laden agrees on this. Either we keep jihad and explain that it is misused by Bin Laden or we use war Islampedia 03:26, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

Strong Keep - The term jihad is how the war in Afghanistan, as well as the wars waged by Osama bin Laden since then, have been referred to by Al Qaeda itself. The term also came up in Somalia vs. Ethiopia invoked by Al Qaeda. While there are other forms of non-violent jihad, those are not what Al Qaeda generally is referring to. On the page describing Al Qaeda, we need to use the term as Al Qaeda means to use them. To otherwise blandize the article by reducing jihad to the more generic "war" loses the semiotic differentiation that Al Qaeda itself asserts. It is not just waging "war." It purports to wage jihad. There is a lot of clarification on the jihad pages, including offensive jihad, defensive jihad, etc. Such need not be rehashed here. --Petercorless 05:19, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

Considering that Al-Qaeda is understood as an extremist group by most, their outlooks on Islam differ greatly in many ways to traditional Muslims. In this article, using jihad should be modified by "self-declared" as I'm assuming that most Muslims would not agree with an "extremist" organization. It will look odd to apend it to every mention of AQ declaring a jihad, so perhaps a small notice somewhere should be made. :War and crusade are not the correct terms to use here; but the way jihad is being used is also incorrect. OverSS 14:26, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

Good point. When referenced, "jihad" should be "self-declared jihad" and "jihadist" should be "militant on self-declared jihad". "Jihadist" is a loaded term, like "islamist". With neutral POV: What is happening? Violence; war. With the analysts POV & reference: Why are they doing it? Self declared jihad. Concepts should be separate! Lukelastic 00:07, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

Cetainly, the way jihad is used in this article would only cause misconceptions of the word's meaning. OverSS 18:20, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

Perhaps in this rather extreme case (where everyone except Al-Qaeda agree that it is unadulterated warmongering (albeit to match the warmongering of its opponents)) it is acceptable to use "jihad" (note the hidden redirect), or be long winded, and use something like " war (self-declared a jihad) ". John Vandenberg 06:27, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

Looking at the choices here, I think being long winded would be more appropriate. OverSS 18:45, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

Al Qaeda =? The database ?

Database is Qaedat Al Bayanat قاعدة البيانات in Arabic .. The Base is 'Al Qaeda' القاعدة in Arabic. In Arabic we use 'Al Qaeda' as translation to 'The Base'. For Database we could use simply 'al Bayanat' البيانات ignoring the first part when we speak about a database which means that the idea of translating 'Al Qaeda' to 'The database' is not correct even if it is linked with some database of the extremists because they would call it 'Al Bayanat' and not 'Al Qaeda' if they mean the database. The term has more military concept here and could not be linked with a 'database'. I do not know if I am correct Islampedia 21:00, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

List of members

The list of members near the bottom of the page does seem bias, as it includes the London bombers who are not always recognised as its members, yet ignores its confirmed members involved in other attacks/plots --Boris Johnson VC 19:55, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

It is definitely sporadic. It will also likely grow over time. I suggest the section be split and moved to a separate page: "List of Al Qaeda members." Notations in such a list should be clear to cite when there are claims of membership by the person themselves, formal distinctions/designations by governments, law enforcement and militaries (such as FBI or Interpol, Executive Orders, court evidence, etc.), versus unproven or even disproven allegations and suspicions. Proposed: Please Vote on whether you think we should split the list of members to a new page. --Petercorless 23:20, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

Votes and polls are generally not used in wikipedia, see WP:POLL. In a nutshell, this says that Decisions are not made by popular vote, but rather through discussions by reasonable people, working towards consensus. Polling is not forbidden, but should be used with care.

On the matter in hand, I think that if you feel there is sufficient material to expand the list as it stands into a substantial article of its own, then go ahead - as long as someone is going to put the work in fairly soon. I don't see the need to split it, if it is just going to remain in the same state. But there is definate potential for a quality list if the things mentioned above are included (and cited). →Ollie (talk • contribs) 00:35, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

Initial "a" minor case

Hi.

Ad this line at the first line of code:

{{lowercase|title=al-Qaeda}}

...it´s the "trick" to obtain an initial low case.

I do not do it due to my "filtered" internet access. I am afraid of mangling words.Randroide 15:36, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

This is no different from the typical Wikipedia article. We don't slap this on all articles just because initial capitalization is turned on in the article names on English Wikipedia. This template does not belong here. Al-Qaeda properly has a capital A when it is used at the beginning of a sentence, as I have just done here. Gene Nygaard 15:04, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

flag

On War in Afghanistan (2001–present), the combatant al-Qaeda is depicted on the right hand infobox using the flag to the left . Yet it isnt show here. Is this the flag the organisation uses, or has it been chosen by an external influence? John Vandenberg 06:22, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

All Muslims believe that this is the flag of the Muhammad. Al Qaeda used this flag to gain sympathy from all Muslims. Another example is the Islamic Courts Union ICU in Somalia they used the same flag. What is written on the flag is Shahadah the first Pillar of Islam Islampedia 22:28, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

Agreed. Al-Qaeda has no exclusive use of this flag. Also see: Hizb ut-Tahrir, Islamic Khilafah ... Interestingly, the Taliban's official flag was the inverse of black script on white. Again, that is not an exclusive use of the Shadadah. Other organizations use it too. --Petercorless 04:18, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

Please correct me if I am wrong, but I don't believe that the sources of either the flag image on this page or the flag image on the article page meet the Wikipedia standards for reliable sources Wikipedia:Reliable sources. Both are based on what someone says the flag looked like when they saw it. Should an alternate image be used in the article?--Nowa 21:53, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

These flags, for example, are said to fly over the graves of certain Al Qaida fighters. The photo is allegedly from AP, but I cannot find the original source. --Nowa 22:02, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

al Qaeda doesn't exist

Please watch this extract from a BBC documentary on the subject. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vBVVs9hcmRY It speaks for itself. SmokeyTheCat 09:43, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

The documentary doesn't say al-Qaeda doesn't exist. It says al-Qaeda isn't a hierarchical organization. Gazpacho 11:01, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

Good point. According to this CNN reference cited in the article [2], the structure of al Qaeda is "super cells" (that) operate on their own without guidance from the men who once trained and directed them. Does that suggest that al Qaeda is an "organization" in the same sense that Alcoholics Anonymous is an organization? (with obviously very different purposes) --Nowa 13:45, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

We know they exist. The Justice Department took a group of people and gave them the name al-Qaeda long ago. This was necessary otherwise RICO prosecution would have completely stalled. Without a named organization the Justice department was screwed. So, they used the name of the Mujahideen database used to track USA-backed Afghanistan fighters.

The problem now is that once the organization al-Qaeda was officially created by the Justice Department, the real issue became 'are they several dozen people' vs 'could there be hundreds of them' vs 'are they just a flag to fly under to be credible'.

-- That Guy, From That Show! 14:07, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

When John Walker Lindh was discovered in Afghanistan, he said that Osama bin Laden funded the Arab branch of a movement called Ansar who were trained in his camps. So there was a named movement, but the name wasn't "al-Qaeda" at that time. It seems a little bizarre that the article considers the BBC documentary an "alternative" on equal terms with Osama's own remarks. Gazpacho 21:51, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

religious affiliation?

in summary says they are sunni muslim, but in other articles of christian terrorist groups, they are just "paramilitary", and not christian? how about removing sunni muslim from this article, or adding Christian terrorist to articles like the "lord's resistance army"? or can we not have that on a predominately christian edited site? we must make it muslim biast right? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 70.246.244.184 (talk) 02:14, 22 January 2007 (UTC).

Articles about terrorist groups should identify their ideology as specifically as can be supported from reliable sources. Terrorist groups are not "Christian terrorist groups" merely because they recruit in a part of the world that is predominantly Christian Gazpacho 03:45, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

The LRA believes the ten commandments should be made the law of the land. They are 100% Christian organization, just like al qaeda is 100% muslim. Your Christian bias is evident in that you corrected the lord's resistance army article to delete this FACT, and then added sunni to this article. You are such a bigot fascist, just like all the other wikipedia editors.