Talk:Skanderbeg/Archive 1
Wouldn't the proper title for this article be just plain "Skanderbeg", as he is most commonly known? Everyking 18:44, 21 Jul 2004 (UTC)
- Maybe, when I moved it here I think I was pretty new at Wikipedia. The old title was worse, but this is not much better since "Gjergj Kastriot" is the Albanian spelling, and Skanderbeg is a non-Albanian spelling. (don't know from which language it comes). I'll think about it some more to see which would be the most appropriate title and post another reply. Dori | Talk 17:10, Jul 23, 2004 (UTC)
- Well, that's what he's known as in English, at least, and the other encylopedias I come across, like Britannica, go with just Skanderbeg. Everyking 20:09, 23 Jul 2004 (UTC)
This seems about right
It seems that a propaganda source has popped up on the internet. Don't be fooled its not written by Albanians but by Serbs and much of its sources are taken out of context. Its from here: http://www.geocities.com/aia_skenderbeg/
The character also tries to prove his ethnicity by using a non-official geneology page:http://www.sardimpex.com/FILES/CASTRIOTA%20E%20BRANAI.htm
However, if you read the diclaimer it says: "Considering the magnitude of our work, and its associated technical difficulties, we hope that our readers will forgive us for the slowness of publication and for errors which they may encounter. We hope to correct the latter as soon as we become aware of them. We understand that, for some families, the available sources are neither of the first quality nor are they confirmed by recent scholarship, therefore we will be happy to receive any appropriate information, notices, and corrections."
checkout a recent book. http://www.arbitalia.it/stampa/pubblicazioni/2003/scanderbeg_un.eroe.moderno.htm
In the preface, two of Scanderbeg's living ancestors(Alessandro and Gulio Castriota)have written in the preface, the same ones that have found the Albanian roots and that have promissed to give the genealogy tree of family to the Albanian National Museum in Tirana.
here in another source http://www.heraldica.org/topics/national/albania.htm
" The Kastrioti or Castriota family, of Albanian origin, begins with certainty with John Castriota, lord of Mat and Vumenestia, who died in 1443.
The family still exists. The current (or at least recent) head of the family of Castriota-Scanderbeg lives at "Napoli: via G. Cotronei 2", while his uncle lives at "Napoli: villa Scanderbeg, via Napoli 119 bis; La Pietra- Bagnoli (Napoli)". They bear the arms d'oro all'aquila bicipite, coronata sulle due teste di nero, col volo abbassato, alla punta d'azz., movente dal lembo superiore dello scudo, rovesciata e caricata di una stella (6) d'oro (which translates into Or an double-headed eagle, wings abaisse, crowned on both heads sable, on a pile azure a mullet or.)
A brother of George Castriota Scanderbeg was Stanisha (Staniscia), who left a son Branilo.
Sources:
Enciclopedia Italiana. Enciclopedia Storico-Nobiliare Italiana. Dizionario Biografico degli Italiani. Charles Hopf: Chroniques Gréco-Romaines. Berlin, 1873. Foscarini, Amilcare: l' Armerista delle famiglie nobili e notabili in terra d'Otranto, 1927."
In the letter directed to the Prince of Taranto at 31 October 1450, Scanderbeg refers to his Albanianess and the origins of his people. The letter is to be found in many biographies of Scanderbeg, it was published for the first time in in French by Pagnel, a writer in the XV century in his publication entitled ÒTHE TURKS AND THE HISTORY OF SKANDERBEGÓ. The original of the letter is to be found Milan State Archives, Carteggio Storzesco, Albania, Cartella 540. http://members.aol.com/rhvara/con5.htm
The arguments for the "Serbness" of Scanderbeg are related to his mother, not his father. We also know on those who claim him to be Greek or having Bulgarian roots instead of the Serb ones ... Albanians in Italy know what the origin of Scanderbeg was. http://www.falkunara.com/english/history/History.htm http://www.antiarte.it/adramelekteatro/eventi_scanderbeg.htm
I believe you have already been informed in this forums that the thesis that Branilo was great-grandfather of Scanderbeg has already been rejected by scholars ("Illyrische-albanischen Forschungen"). The confusion was created by a mistranslation by a German guy (I don't remember his name) of a serbian language document of 1368 that mentions at the end "Branilo and Kastrioti of the castle of Kanina". In the mistranslated text it was overlooked the "and" (I believe it is "i" in serbian, correct me if wrong) wrongly concluding that Branilo and Kastrioti were the same, whereas in fact it were 2 different persons.
There is very little dispute as to Scanderbeg's origin
Miskin: I'll quote from your own sources at http://members.aol.com/rhvara/con5.htm
My elders were from Epirus, where this Pirro came from, whose force could scarcely support the Romans. This Pirro, who Taranto and many other places of Italy held back with armies.
Scanderbeg claims heritage from a bunch of ancient Greeks such as Pyrrhus of Epirus and Alexander the Great. Or will you say that ancient Macedon and Epirus were Illyrians? Do not say this because everyone will take you for a nationalist and revert your posts on the spot. Why isn't he claiming heritage from any Illyrians (or was the Illyrian-Albanian connection invented later)? He also refers to part of his army as "Epiroti" (Epirotes), which at the time was almost synonymous to 'Byzantines' (because of the Despotate of Epirus). Furthermore he describes Epirus as his mother land and we already know that he had a Serbian mother. I'm not saying that Scadenberg claimed to be Greek or Serbian, but his ethnic feeling is not the one presented by this site. By the time of Scanderbeg, Epirus and Albania had a mixed Greco-Albanian and Serbian population of Christian Orthodox people who were fighting against the muslim Turks. His armies consisted of Byzantines (Greeks), Albanians and Slavs. He can't have thought that Epirotes meant Albanians, because the recent history of the Depostate of Epirus and the ancient history of Epirus belonged to the Greeks. It's certain that Albanians and Serbians have also entered the regions of both Epirus and Albania, therefore his regional names such as "Epiroti" and "Albanese" refer to all the Christian inhabitants of those lands, and not specifically to Albanians as it's interpreted in the article. Have you seen the seal of Scanderbeg and what it says on it? Well, get a clue...
http://bjoerna.dk/albansk-historie/Seal-of-Scanderbeg.htm
Well.....
In his History written in 1079-1080, Byzantine historian Michael Attaleiates was the first to refer to the Albanoi as having taken part in a revolt against Constantinople in 1043 and to the Arbanitai as subjects of the duke of Dyrrachium. Similarly, the historian John Scylitzes refers (ca. 1081) to the Arbanites as forming part of the troops assembled in Durrës by Nicephorus Basilacius. It can be assumed that the Albanians began expanding from their mountain homeland in the eleventh and twelfth centuries, initially taking possession of the northern and central Albanian coastline and by the thirteenth century spreading southward towards what are now southern Albania and western Macedonia. In the middle of the fourteenth century, they migrated even farther south into Greece, initially into Epirus, Thessaly (1320), Acarnania and Aetolia.' By the middle of the fifteenth century, which marks the end of this process of colonization, the Albanians had settled in over half of Greece in such great numbers that in many regions they constituted the majority of the population.'''
http://www.elsie.de/pub/pdf_articles/A2001CountriesCultures.pdf
The first Albanian-Latin disctionary was also called "Dictionnarium latino-epiroticum" and Joseph Scalinger's comment about Albanian being spoken "In the mountains of Epirus".
What Epirus was in antiquity has no relevance to what it was in Medieval days.
Furthermore; Scanderbeg was named "Prince of Epirus" during the Legue of Lezhe, which was an alliance made by 5 Albanian Princes and 1 Montenegrin prince "The chiefs of Albania were then invited to meet him. When they met with him at Croia, they called him their deliverer and proclaimed him the "Prince of Epirus" " Page 236, Catholic Word Enyclopedia VOL. XXIII., Number 134-MAY 1876
Scanderbeg's allies; Arianiti's (Albanians), Dukagjinis (Albanians), Crnojevics (Montenegrins),Balshas (Albanians), Thopias (Albanians),Muzakas (Albanians)
Greeks had no say in him being titled "Prnce of Epirus"
During the Middle-Ages Albanians were not known as the Illyrians. In fact curing that era. The Yugoslavian langauge spoken in Serbia and Croatia was called the Illyrian language. Albanians were not living in the Roman province of Illyricum(which was different from the Actual Illyria as what is today Albanian land was split between Macedon, Epirus and Illyria began basically on the Albanian border) so therefore were not called such.
Also for your letter, why didn't you add the first words?
Which were as follows;
"Moreover, you scorned our people, and compared the Albanese to sheep, and according to your custom think of us with insults. Nor have you shown yourself to have any knowledge of my race."
Albanians were always known as Albanians. Simple as that. What Epirote means, well thats decided by who lives in Epirus.
Add this to; In the 15th century several independant princelings called "Despots" by the Greeks, were in possetion of the rich and populous district of Albania, which stretched along the coast of the Adriatic and Mediterrenean sea and corresponds geographically to the Epirus of the ancient. One of the noblest of these chiefs was John Castriot...." SOURCE; http://shopper2.123city.net/SponsorAds/586-855-1476/1263_scanderbegcatholic-world1876.pdf
Kastrati(In Italin Castrati) is also a region of Northern Albania. IOT is usually added to a surname to mean "from ____" , for instance HIMARIOT, KASTRIOT, see the similarity? Him dressing in Albanian clothing "He wore also a full white camese common among the Albanians." Barletius Marinus'
and taking up Catholicsm also corresponds with that idea as gegs of northern Albania were pridominately Catholic.
It's natural to claim heritage from great historical figures when they live next to you. It makes you look nicer. Anyway, what Greeks call Scanderbeg doesnt make a lick of difference snce this is about an Albanian hero on an American internet site. Do a special Greek pagie on him if you must and lie all you want. His origin is not all taht debated. Its generally agreed that he was half savic(though easily debatable as his wife was from Tetova, and that has long had a significant Albanian population.
The history of Epirus does not just belong to the Greeks as during the Middle Ages has had a significant Albanian population. As evidenced in these quotes.
"Marin Barleti traces the Kastrioti origin in Aemethia (modern Mati). In the contrary, in a chronicle from Ragusa (modern Dubrovnik), in the basis of old documents by P.Lukari (1605) and a bosniac collection published by E.Fermenxhim, tells us that the Kastrioti origin is from Hasi, were according to them there was a village named Kastrat (Castrati)." From Kristo Frasheri
So why don't you guys top with you chauvinistic propaganda and stop your damn claims on an Albanian hero whom the world recognizes as such. It does not make a lick of difference what his greek name is.This is an English article about an Albanian hero. Make a Greek page on him if you want and lie all you want/.
Not to mention Albanians did not even have a proper alphabet at that time. Any Albanian noble wrote in either Greek(in the south) or Serbian(north).
Miskin:
If everyone regognises him as such then what are you so worried about? It wasn't me who added his Greek name, you can take it off if you like, but stop hiding the fact that he had a Serbian mother.
Any Albanian noble wrote in either Greek(in the south) or Serbian(north). In the Serbian/Greek alphabets or in the Serbian/Greek langauges? That would make a big difference.
What Epirus was in antiquity has no relevance to what it was in Medieval days. Have you heard of the Despotate of Epirus which also ruled part of Albania? No. Well, look up the article and talk to me about the "medieval" status of Epirus later. The term "Epirote" has always referred to Greeks and never solely to Albanians. It's true that at some point Epirus was overrun by Albanians, as Albania was previously overrun by Greeks (from antiquity until the despotate), so it's certain that Albania included Greeks (as it still does), Epirus included Albanians and they both included some Serbians (and later Turks).
IOT is usually added to a surname to mean "from ____" , for instance HIMARIOT, KASTRIOT, see the similarity? Let me guess? Like Alexander means in Albanian "son of eagle" (or whatever you people say). "Iot-Iotis" is common for many languages. The name "Kastriotis" is not even Albanian.
What Epirote means, well thats decided by who lives in Epirus. So let me guess, Epirus was for some 2000 years inhabited by Greeks and at the same time the land of Albania was under Greek domination for another 1000 years, and when Albanian becomes semi-independent and semi-dominates Epirus for 50 years, suddenly, Greeks from Epirus cease to exist and the name is reserved to Albanians??!! :) Escape your nationalist word and clean up your mind by the communist propaganda that has infected it. We don't want this attitude here, this article needs a clean up.
Greeks had no say in him being titled "Prnce of Epirus"
Why? Because big brother says so? Let me ask you something, did big brother ever mention anything about his Serbian mother... Oh, so he didn't... :/
Albanians were not living in the Roman province of Illyricum(which was different from the Actual Illyria as what is today Albanian land was split between Macedon, Epirus and Illyria began basically on the Albanian border) so therefore were not called such.
Albania was split between Illyria, Epirus and Macedon?? That's it. This is the ultimate proof that your views are based on ultra-nationalist myths, accepted by nobody in the world except a minority of Albanians (the ones who invented them), and in any case: they're not welcome here. I'll personally make sure that an NPOV scientific article replaces this travesty asap. If you try to revert back to nationalism, I'll make sure that you get blocked from editing. Miskin
Iskender;
Keep the half Serbian origin. But the princes of Epirus that he united were Albanians. None were Greeks. There were no Greeks in the League of Lezhe. As evidenced by the names I put in. which are ALL real, so don't worry. No that's not my biggest proof(about Illyria). We had no knowledge of our ancestors prior to late 19th century. The Illyrians were considered the Slavs and (this was by Catholic records) the Albanians were also often seen as the Epirotians. I did not say the Greeks were displaced. However I did point out that John Castrioti was an Albanian. The name Kastriot is often used in Albanian, it is even a region in Northern Albania, named Kastrati. Many people there have the surname Kastriot. Sources also point out that his father was in fact Albanian;
In the 15th century several independant princelings called "Despots" by the Greeks, were in possetion of the rich and populous district of Albania, which stretched along the coast of the Adriatic and Mediterrenean sea and corresponds geographically to the Epirus of the ancient. One of the noblest of these chiefs was John Castriot...." Page 234 Catholic World, same edition.
Remember this?
Who said anything about Alexander? Why is he even in this discussion? I never said anything about Alexander having ANY meaning in Albanian. You don't know ALbanian so therefore you cannot say IOT is a lie. My family does have a friend whos an Himariot and when we need to point out to him my family always calls him Himarioti. And who are you to say Im wrong? Can you tell me you knwo ANYTHING about Albanians?
About the langauge. They used the Greek or Serbian language, also Italian. There was no Albannian alphabet then.
Whos big brother? The Catholic or Italian world? Whom hold most of the records on Scanderbeg? Yes there are small mentions. ;)
By the way, how is all the stuff I posted propaganda? They are all non Albanian... Check the history of our first latin-Albanian dictinary(created sometime around the 18th century) and see if Im lying.
Everything I posted is real evidence.
And how is his origin disputed? Oh thats right, the world sees one thing(his father being ALbanian) and as usual greeks and Serbs see it another way. If your going by that "NeutraL" idea then fine go by it but then don't write that his ethnicity is under scrutiny since it is generally accepeted that John was in fact Albanian. And ont twist the Albanese meaning and making soem false definition of it. Check out my sources yourself. Look around the internet and you probably wont have a hard time finding the Catholic World translated encyclopedia which is also stored in the Vatican library. Check out Scalinger's comment, check out the 6 princes(which, once again, were all Albanian and one Montenegrin). So I guess if you'r going to say Epirus, it would be best to say Albanian tribes of Epirus. Thats more accurate since being Epiriot means being Greek...
Oh BTW, I saiud significant Albanian population, never said completely Albanian....
You say what Im saying is propaganda, yet you have failed to provide any evidence for your arguement then binding, twisting and lying about the name "Albanese" which is Italian for Albanian.
As evidenced here;So don't tell me what Albanese means....
http://dictionaries.travlang.com/ItalianEnglish/dict.cgi?query=albanian&max=50
And techically, Scanderbeg wasnt half Serbian as his mother was from Tetova, which is in FYROM. So techically, he was half-Bulgarian. But w/e.....
The term "Epirote" has always referred to Greeks and never solely to Albanians. It's true that at some point Epirus was overrun by Albanians, as Albania was previously overrun by Greeks (from antiquity until the despotate), so it's certain that Albania included Greeks (as it still does)
All I stated was that during Antiquity mentiones were made that Albanians were speaking their langauge in the mountains of epirus. This is pathetic, why is a greek allowed to mess with Albanian history. Communist propaganda? I never even grew up in communism.... I also live in the states. Ofcourse Albania is FILLED with Greeks right? But tehre were NO ALbanians in Greece. Right! When was Albania overrun by Greece? It stated in the article that while Albanians were the majority in some areas in greece and definately ALbania, the big cities were populated by Greeks/Venetians etc.(Ofcourse it was time to go once we settled down ;) ) Places like Vlora has the Greek populants But outside it the people were ALbanians.
I never doubted what "Albanese" means, I just pointed out what "Epirote" means and who the mother of Scanderbeg was. I can tell you that I've met many Albanians in my life, and as you're an Albanian who lives abroad, then I've probably met more than you. So trust me, but I know very well how far your national myths can go. There's no proof that Albanians have any link to antiquity, not even to Illyrians, that's only an extreme hypothesis, so don't mention the phrase "Albanians in antiquity" if you want to be taken seriously. Albanian history officially starts during the middle ages. Basically there's nothing wrong with national myths (since you're the only ones who believe them), but what is wrong is to vandalise history in such way. I'm aware of many scholars who don't regard Kastriotis as an Albanian, but I'm not going to bother with this article at the moment (as there are more important things in sight). I haven't ignored anything of what you said, and there's nothing that you said that I didn't already know, what you fail to understand is that what you're considering as "evidence" of Kastiotis being Albanian has actually the opposite effects. The fact that Albanians turned him into their hero doesn't mean that he was an Albanian nor that he fought for Albania. His army was composed of Albanians, Greeks, Serbs, Bulgars and many other peoples, he referred to himself as an Epirote, he was the son of a Serbian royalty and used the Byzantine double-headed eagle as a national symbols (ironically still in the flag of modern Albania). There's also a seal in which he's characterised as the "Emperor of the Greeks, King of Bulgars, Albanians and Turks", but this is something that you have completely ignored (because you cannot explain). You're an extreme nationalist and definitely not the kind of person who's capable of writing a historical article. This article is a joke and I'll make sure it gets cleaned up by a serious person. Miskin