Talk:Society of the United States

Older comments

This is ugly. Are we really expecting to fill in all of this empty space? -- Zoe

Hi Zoe, thanks for taking an interest in this page. In answer to your question, yes I'd like to fill in all of that space. I've been trying to add more substantial articles on the U.S. and its states. Unfortunately, this is not my area of expertise, thus I have to do a fair amount of research prior to and during the writing of the articles. If you're offering to help, that would be fantastic. As far as the ugliness of the page, I agree with you on that, though I've found many such empty sections and bulleted outline lists in various articles, some of which for the U.S. I've replaced. It seems to be the wiki practice. I am certainly willing to either change the section headings to bullets or even move the unfinished sections to this talk page until they have been completed. What do you think? - sfmontyo

Concerning the "other holidays": I don't know any companies that give any off those holidays as days off, except for Columbus Day and Veterans Day. In addition, can we get the tables to line up? -- Zoe

I'm open to most any suggestion. As far as the "other holidays", I wasn't sure about bank holidays and the like. We can delete them or change the title to indicate that they are unobserved in the sense of having time off. I had planned on getting to those holidays after completing the earlier parts of the article. Should we make this just one table? Also, I had planned on adding dates to them as well. I can't do any more work tonight, but can take a look at it tomorrow. Cheers, - Sfmontyo

I think one table would be good, with indications as to whether they're observed or not. -- Zoe

What the hey? This isn't right..Not even close. First off foriegn films are widely available. Most US Broadcast cartoons targeted to children are sanitized and dubbed Japanese Anime. Manga and Animae are widely available. Other forign films are also most certainly widely available.

Second although there are large conglomerates for food and retail, they are regional and don't extend the US. Only a few stores like Dollar General, Target, K-Mart, Wal-Mart, and Save-A-Lot are the same across the states. These stores don't make up the bulk of any large US city's retailers. There are almost always local stores on top of these stores. The same with the foods. ALthough Fast-Food and Fast Casual chains exist in the US they exist alongside local resturants, cafes, and diners.

The Holiday list is way off also. In the US a Holiday can be declared by the Federal Govt, the State, or the local City. Carnival and Oktoberfest are two examples of locally declared holidays. On top of that there are also some cultral-centric Holidays which are observed without being declared by the govt at any level. The Jewish Holidays you have listed are typically not declared by any State. The Fed Govt only declares 10 Holidays; Christmas, New Years Day, Presidents Day, Martin Luther King Day, Memorial Day, Independance Day (4'th of July), Labor Day, Columbus day, Thanksgiving, and Vetrans Day. On the other hand Haloween, St. Patricks Day, Valentines Day, Easter, Good Friday, and April Fools day are celebrated uniformly across the US without being declared.

Curious why my changes were just undone

Why were my changes of "00:20, 11 Dec 2003" and "00:25, 11 Dec 2003" reverted ? (Not that I'm terribly upset, but I am curious -- I thought one of my changes fixed an apparent misstatement of fact, and one fixed a flaw in grammar.)

I'm sorry. I mistook you for another anon that appeared to be Michael. I'll revert your changes now. -- Pakaran 00:30, 11 Dec 2003 (UTC)

I can't really revert this one, since you've edited it since then, sorry. -- Pakaran 00:31, 11 Dec 2003 (UTC)

---

re: "One of the biggest differences in suburban living is the housing occupied by the families." -- I couldn't understand this -- differences from what?

From urban housing, as in apartments and row houses. This applies mostly to Eastern cities like Philadelphia. In Denver most houses in the city are the same detached houses one finds in the suburbs, but somewhat smaller and older. The suburban housing pattern mandates the car culture, access to most services requiring the use of a vehicle. Fred Bauder 12:37, 31 Dec 2003 (UTC)

---

"The States" is a term generally used when referring to the country from some overseas vantage point.

I may be mistaken, but I believe it's mainly Canadians who use this term. I believe that as often as not, people from non-North American, English-speaking countries refer to the US as "America" or the "USA" or what have you, but not so much as "the States." Can someone confirm or refute this? --Sewing 23:46, 11 Mar 2004 (UTC)

I can't speak to this question, but i question its relevance: this article is about American culture, and that context suggests construing that sentence as saying that Americans overseas are likely to talk about, for instance, how long it is before they will be "going back to the States". --Jerzy(t) 04:46, 2004 Jul 15 (UTC)

It's not just Canada. We use it in the UK as well. Brentford 16:59, 18 Nov 2004 (UTC)

---

Putting food back into the article as I believe it is an aspect of culture. Further, a web search will show other references also view food as an aspect of culture. e.g. one such (no comment on whether this is a good one or not :) ) is Microsoft Encarta. See http://encarta.msn.com/encyclopedia_1741500820/United_States_(Culture).html - Sfmontyo 05:03, 2 May 2004 (UTC)

Virtues?

Could a virtue of hygene be added? Americans are generally a very clean people that place a large value on personal hygene. For example, body odor is a very extreme taboo in America as opposed to Great Britain or other Western countries. Just an idea...

-That's a joke, yeah? [JonMayer]

...I'm not at all convinced by this one!

Midland I believe is spoke in the Midwest just north of the Ohio and stops at the plains.

African American Vernacular English should have been added.

America is too loose and diverse a country for you to treat it like other countries. I mostly talking about the article on Dress. If it were some old world civilization I can see that but not the US. -Eurytus

phenomenon: middle class families embracing high culture in the 50's and 60's

Has anyone heard of this phenomenon? Middle class American families somewhere mid-century embraced upper class culture like classical music, high art, theater, education, etc. and in turn indoctrinated their children. What is this phenomenon called. How can I learn more?

[email protected]

Social Problems

I think that this page is not as carefully critical as it could be. Certain of US' (our) social issues could be addressed here, too. Homelessness is a truly American cultural phenomenon, the product of individualism. Race and racism are important cultural components. Public life in the US is mostly secular, but there is a lot of conflict about the meaning of religion in our society. These controversial need to be duly included.

--Defenestrate 4 July 2005 21:21 (UTC)

Use of the term "American Culture"

...is an ambiguous one, because it can lead to confusion between "culture of the USA" and "culture of the people of the Americas". Aztecs, Toltecs, Sioux, Canadians, Equatorians, Argentinians, Brazilians, etc... all have culture, and they are all in the American continent. Thus, "american culture" is a misleading term, and I believe that it should be substituetd to something clearer, such as "culture of US", "US culture" or some other unambiguous equivalent. If its ok with everybody, Ill make such changes in a day or two. LtDoc 23:32, 28 July 2005 (UTC)

While in other languages and/or cultures the term "America" retains a more general sense of "the Americas," no ambiguity attaches to the word in English—that is to say, the terms "America" and "American" are construed in the English language as referring to the USA or topics related to the USA. More particularly with regard to the present article, the context (i.e., an article titled "Culture of the United States") further confirms this interpretation to the reader. This is not chauvinism or linguistic appropriation, it is simply the path of semantic development that the phrase "America" has taken in the English language, and changing the article in the manner you suggested would appear to make the article more stilted and unnatural-sounding. —Ryanaxp 16:30, July 29, 2005 (UTC)

It is an unfortunate semantic development that shows how ignorant most US people are. Nevertheless, I agree that most people think that American People are US-people. In some of my edits to this page, and in my own every day speech, I say United States People, but I am part of an opinionated minority. Sigh.

Even if for US citizens the term "american" refers to them alone, it is yet highly offensive to others. And even in the US the term causes some confusion, you just need to check on the page of native americans, for example. Furthermore, its is linguistic appropriation allright, perhaps the biggest case of such uf ever there was one. America (the continent) existed well before the US was colonized, independent and founded. Perhaps what you meant is that it wasnt your generation that started it, but it surely was an appropriation (and I can see a couple of reasons for that) of the name. There are several pages discusing this topic, and I suggest you take a look at them to see how the discussion goes. As of now, we have a 2-1 pro-change vote.LtDoc 22:02, 29 July 2005 (UTC)

I for one suggest you might do well not to assume that I haven't followed the "several pages" you mention above—in fact I have read the opinions expressed on this topic in various places (including vigorous opinions both pro and con) and formed careful conclusions on the matter weighing both sides. Moreover, I must wholeheartedly and firmly reject your attempt to put words in my mouth—I meant what I wrote, no more, no less; and nothing I wrote said anything whatsoever about my own or anyone else's generation. Your kind understanding in my emphasis is greatly appreciated, as I'm sure you can see why it is important to address such matters in an affirmative (but hopefully not rude) manner.
Regarding the assertion you make of the current use of the term "American" as reflecting chauvinism on the part of Americans, I'm afraid we shall simply have to respectfully agree to disagree, as there seems no more likelihood of either of us convincing the other, than would those who debate the validity of evolution or the propriety of abortion. I can appreciate the sincerity of your views, and I hope you can understand that my view of the matter is sincere, as well.
As for pointing out the vote count at the conclusion of a single day, I think it seems a bit unripe even to mention—I'm not some reverting avenger and I've no intention to go about changing any such changes you make, but since you opened the discussion here on the talk page and invited opinions, I simply stated mine. —Ryanaxp 02:15, July 30, 2005 (UTC)

Well, what I suggested is that, since you have an opinion on this matter, it would be good to get an eye on the other articles as well - I didnt assume you either did or didnt follow up, I was making a suggestion. Also, if you take the time to re-read my comment youll see that I havent placed any words in your mouth. What was implied in my previous comment is that people who dont believe this to be an appropriation usually mean that they werent the ones who started using the term.

And yes, I agree this (these) subject(s) should be adressed in an affirmative way, as (I hope) you can tell by the way I address the matter. However, (catchy sentence warning!) I disagree to the fact that we should simply agree to disagree on the fact that it was either an appropiation or an evolution. (Dont get me wrong, agreeing to disagree on subjects is all nice and good, and cordiality should be always a top requirement to participate in all kinds of discussion). My point is, reviewing historical documents, studying the mannerisms of the time, getting a grasp on how the term "american" was coined, by whom, to which purpose, in what cultural, historical and plolitical background, we can (and will) find out the reasons that made this term current in the USA as of today, therefore asserting it was an appropriation.

As for the count, it was only to place a partial result,you can rest assured that I wouldnt dream of making such a change (in which several people feel passionate about) in a single day of voting, with the meager count of 3 votes, for it would be trollish, unethical and just plain rude. Talk pages are for discussion, and with a little luck, improvement, of the article. Cheers!LtDoc 16:42, 1 August 2005 (UTC)

Intra-national allegiances

"Recent immigrants tend to congregate with other immigrants from their country of origin,..."

This is common in most countries, and is not unique to America. I don't think it adds to our uniqueness; that is, I don't think it is a dynamic that adds to America's unique culture. Instead, it is a common element in world urban culture. There are some important issues here nonetheless, being the general groups of immigrants: those from Europe, those from outside Europe, and those forced here by the slave trade. The relative differences with which these groups have blended into the society (and continue to blend) is indicative of unique American attitudes and culture. However, the fact that immigrants from an area will tend to congregate for a time in different parts of different cities is of no real interest: who they are certainly matters when talking about American culture, while the fact that they arrived and grouped up in some cities is not.(anon Oct 2, 2005)

Sports

Perhaps it would be appropriate to widen the idea here of a fairly unique selection of American-only (more or less) sports, by a short mention of the sports often associated with east-coast k-12 grade school. Lacrosse and field hockey, for example, are quite common school sports in the east coast (although largely unknown in the west) - with lacrosse being an american invention/adaptation. I don't mean this as an over-detailed nitpick, but instead think they are great examples of some truly unique sports played in the U.S.(anon Oct 2, 2005)

Divorce

I think it could be useful to note the divorce rate in the US. While the issue is touched on again in more depth later (single parent households), it would seem appropriate to mention some specifics on the rate over time, perhaps in the Divorce section. I think (again, as is done later) the rate should be given some context as well - in some countries, America is perceived as being a culture that is rife with divorce.(anon Oct 2, 2005)

Romantic relationships

Attitudes toward sex is a low-hanging-fruit type of cultural marker, and this issue could be a good candidate for inclusion in the article. Attitudes awards sex and media violence is a common point of comparison between American and various European contemporary cultures (ie, being worried about one but not the other, depending on where you are from). I don't think we would be getting too salacious to at least generally reference the basics of the attitudes toward sex and sexuality found in America. We have enough unique (although not extraordinary) ways of thinking and implementing our attitudes to warrant mention, and as well the topic in general is one that many other cultures feel to be a key distinction found in perceived American culture.(anon Oct 2, 2005)

Death rituals

A reasonably distinctive element to how Americans deal with death (and one that is somewhat new, appearing in the last half-century or more), is our tendency to very quickly get dead bodies out of the home and out of sight. Unlike many (perhaps even most) cultures, where the dead are kept in the home for some time, we rapidly move our deceased away from the home. Once a person has died, their body will be seen very little - generally just at a funeral home for a short period. This, again, is in stark contrast to many other cultures. I don't feel this is a small detail, and think that perhaps a person from another culture may find a comment about this issue informative.(anon Oct 2, 2005)

American perception of government

We have a quite distinctive, and almost pathological/religious, distrust of government that can be found in American culture. This, taken with our general religiosity, and in particular with the strong focus on "end times" / apocalypse in much of our fundamentalist religion, makes for some unqiue and quirky things that arise in our attitudes. These two elements combine to surprising effect, with our government often viewed by some as being a potential vehicle of the Biblical apocalypse. This can give some insight to some of the things that Americans can get oddly impassioned about: namely gun control laws (something that the citizens of most other countries have no real issue with).

This issue isn't something that arises solely out of wacky down-home militias (themselves an interesting element of America) - one of the unique and important elements of our nation's founding was to codify an inherent distrust of government (and, more particularly, the people of government) into the laws and agreements that form our foundation. This particular idea, and the attitudes from which it sprang, has been surprisingly long lived - some might even say virulent. More so than any place I have ever visited, the blue collar near-pathological distrust of the federal government taken as a whole is breathtakingly unique to America. As well, this bit of our shared outlook is often noted favorably (when discussing the manner and form of our early government) by many as being a key component to both our own form of representative government, and to our perception of government in general.

I'm quickly getting too specific or narrow here, but I want to be clear on this aspect of the american psyche due to the fact that in milder versions, it is very much present: there are a very large number of Americans (I'll go out on a limb and say that these Americans will not infrequently be non-urban working class peoples) who very specifically believe that the U.N. is a body that will herald the Antichrist, and that the UN is pushing America to have stronger gun laws so that America is easier to take over by the Antrichrist. Whew! Don't run away just yet! While this represents the most extreme form of this broad sense of distrust we have in our culture, in much milder ways this attitude is quite prevalent. When a country codifies early on a mistrust of centralized governments, and a healthy dose of traditional or fundamentalist religion is thrown into the mix, this distrust of government can suddenly arise in unexpectedly strong form. Much of what the rest of the world considers to be completely inexplicable in American culture (again, our passionate guarding of the right to own firearms) arises from the blending of these two cultural themes.

This may seem an odd point to stress and advocate for mention in the article, but I admit that I fear an article written solely from the standpoint of a white-culture, urban, educated middle/upper-middle class writer. We (and I put myself squarely in that demographic) can too easily apply our sense of America to a country that is mind-numbingly diverse on almost every axis imaginable. (anon Oct 2, 2005)

Family Arrangements

On the relatively early age at which a child is expected to have left home: "The strong capitalist tradition may also be a subtle factor (more economic input for landlords)."

I don't think this comment is such a hot idea. It strikes me as editorialistic, quite speculative, and not very sensible (is the author truly arguing that hundreds of millions of people have had their sense of independence, and when in their lives it should take place, subtly altered by a dark cabal of apartment owners?).(anon Oct 2, 2005)

Mobile Americans

Simply put, Americans tend to move around in the country at an eye-watering rate compared to the rest of the world. This of course is due in no small part to the fact that we are both large, and contain a large number of urban economic centers. So, understandably, many Americans will make major moves to new cities for reasons of employment, as well as other sundry reasons.

This is very frequently cited as being a distinctive element to life in America that is very much at variance with what is found elsewhere in the world. It's impact is certainly important (and I believe plays into the American attitudes towards family). Definitely worth considering as addition to the article.(anon Oct 2, 2005)

A work that I can cite at your request (see my talk page) stated that the degree of mobility of Americans in the last 10 years has decline compared with that of the 1980s. --Dpr 06:06, 3 October 2005 (UTC)

Anonynmous comment

I just read over this article, and really enjoyed it. Great work! I would be scared to even begin writing about a summary of American culture. I had a few comments and ideas, which I will list above. I take up far too much space, and go on at great length about seemingly small details. I'm sorry for this, and feel free to wholesale delete my comments at your whim! While I ramble on at length, I am generally just advocating a quick mention of the topic that I bring up. (anon Oct 2, 2005)

The average American moves once every 6 years. Declining or not, that's high. -Adammathias

Education

Is the distiction between "middle school" and "junior high" really grades 6-8 for middle and 7-9 for junior high? That's not how it works in Southern Illinois. Almost all the towns have junior highs, and they're all 6-8. There are some "middle schools," but there doesn't really seem to be a difference. Very rarely is there a school, of either nomenclature, that goes 7-9. In fact it's more common for there to be 5-8 schools. (5-8 is still rare, but it's less rare than 7-9.) 70.106.209.48 06:53, 6 October 2005 (UTC)

Good point. I wonder if it's often just a regional thing as to which term to use to describe things. My very vague perception is that perhaps middle school is maybe weighted towards the easter seaboard?

Car Culture

Americans love their cars and their comparitively inexpensive gasoline. Recently federal government statistics found that there were more licensed automobiles than drivers in the US. The automobile is a symbol of empowerment. It should be mentioned. 70.106.209.48 06:53, 6 October 2005 (UTC)

Allen Ginsberg

Hey folks - need your help on the Allen Ginsberg page. I think it needs a section giving an overview of his literary/intellectual credentials. thegirlinwhite 12:49, 13 November 2005 (UTC)

Use of 'America', 'American' etc.

I have removed the inaccurate of these words where possible. Markb 10:38, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

Cars invented elsewhere

This implies that Americans invented cars. That should be changed, though I'm not sure what precice wording should replace it

try created/manufactured/imported from

Impact on world

Someone should add a fairly lengthy section on the influence of american culture on the rest of the world

where are the footnotes?

where are the footnotes?

Are you guys stealing this information or making it up or what?