Talk:Collectivization in the Soviet Union/Archive 1

I started adding to Sovkhoz and writing kolkhoz, but soon realized that the articles share much. Also, comparison of these forms is required. I suggest to make a single article, Collective farming in the USSR. Also, to avoid confusion, I suggest eiher to rename Collectivisation in the USSR into History of collectivisation in the USSR or to make it into a section of the new article. Any opinions? Please put them into the Talk:Sovkhoz page. Mikkalai 04:38, 17 May 2004 (UTC)

Collectivisation impact

From Talk:Kulak

The collectivization campaign turned Russia from major agricutlural exporter into a country unable to feed itself.

I don't think this isn't true per se, but I do think it could be worded in a much more NPOV 130.157.90.64

Thank you for poining out at this phrase. In fact, it is false. Collectivization per se didn't destroy the productivity of Russian agriculture. (By the way, even in 1913 Russian agriculture was retarded with respect to the rest of the world.) The long chain of disasters: WWI, Russian Revolution, Russian Civil War, aggravated by two droughts (of 1920s and 1930s), did that. If someone wants to discuss the issue further, let's do it at the Talk:Collectivisation in the USSR page. I am copying this dialog there. Mikkalai 01:20, 10 Sep 2004 (UTC)

It is hard to show that collectivization reduced productivity as the control situation of an alternative to collectivization, in Russia, cannot be compared to it. But one might note that problems with food production in China ceased when collectivization was abandoned. Fred Bauder 03:53, Sep 10, 2004 (UTC)

Problems with food production in China became quite serious when collectivisation was abandoned. Even Dazhai, China's most successful commune, did not raise enough grain to feed itself in 1987, four years after it was forcibly disbanded by the government. See William H. Hinton, The Great Reversal: The privatization of China, 1978–1989 (New York: Monthly Review Press, 1990), ISBN 0-85345-794-8. Shorne 22:50, 28 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Shock brigades

In an attempt to overcome this resistance, shock brigades were used to coerce reluctant peasants into joining the collective farms between 1929 and 1933.

To assist collectivisation, the Party decided to sent 25,000 "socially conscious" industry workers to the countryside. These workers have become known as twenty-five-thousanders ("dvadtsatipyatitysyachniki").

It happens that the "dvadtsatipyatitysyachniki" movement occurred exactly during the same time frame: 1929-1933. I strongly suspect that the author of the "shock brigades" phrase merely provided his own interpretation of the fact. Unless someone sheds an additional light (i.e., evidence) on the usage of the "shock brigade" buzzword from the U.S. military slang, the sentence is out. Mikkalai 20:28, 11 Oct 2004 (UTC)

I agree that "shock brigade" is POV. Shorne 21:27, 11 Oct 2004 (UTC)

To Boraczek

Look, I know that this is hard for you to understand, but you have to have facts to be able to change something that is correctly documented and NPOV. You can't just revert it because it doesn't match your astigmatic view of the world. Shorne 09:12, 13 Oct 2004 (UTC)

NPOV

In my opinion, Shorne merely introduces statements taken from communist propaganda without any criticism or distance. If he goes on presenting these statements as facts rather than as opinions, I will consider it an intentional breaking of the NPOV policy, which clearly states that Wikipedia's policy is presenting conflicting views without asserting them. Shorne is welcome to present his opinion on kulaks' activity during the collectivisation as an opinion. Besdies, I can see no reason why high estimates should be deleted, as they only provide additional information. Boraczek 09:59, 13 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Reread what I said. You have to contest facts with facts, not with opinions. Shorne 10:01, 13 Oct 2004 (UTC)

According to Wikipedia's definition (by "fact," we mean "a piece of information about which there is no serious dispute" - taken from Wikipedia:Neutral point of view), you haven't presented any facts. You only presented an opinion, that is to say "a piece of information about which there is some dispute" (taken from Wikipedia:Neutral point of view). That's why I feel free to undo your reversion, as it is against the NPOv policy. I'm sorry. Boraczek 10:55, 13 Oct 2004 (UTC)

I'm sorry to tell you that there is absolutely no way to discuss anything with you. It seems that you do not understand anything. Please seek assistance. Shorne 11:52, 13 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Will someone else kindly accept the herculean task of explaining this to Boraczek? I just don't have the patience. Shorne 12:01, 13 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Shorne, let me encourage you to read the Wikipedia:Neutral point of view article. Here is an excerpt which explains what you can do so as not to violate NPOV: Wikipedia is devoted to stating facts and only facts. Where we might want to state opinions, we convert that opinion into a fact by attributing the opinion to someone. So, rather than asserting, "The Beatles was the greatest band", we can say, "Most Americans believe that the Beatles was the greatest band," which is a fact verifiable by survey results, or "The Beatles had many songs that made the Billboard Hot 100," which is also fact. In the first instance we assert an opinion; in the second and third instances we "convert" that opinion into fact by attributing it to someone. Boraczek 12:11, 13 Oct 2004 (UTC)