Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Rivers: Difference between revisions

Caschei River

I see quite a few scholarly biological articles refer to the Caschei River, a river in southern Ethiopia (possibly between Lake Turkana and Lake Chew Bahir). Can anyone provide any more details about this river? --Classicwiki (talk) If you reply here, please ping me. 00:03, 15 June 2024 (UTC)

Discussion at River

There is a discussion about the proposed content of the River article at the talk page that may be of interest to this project. ForksForks (talk) 13:13, 24 July 2024 (UTC)

Navbox for Willamette River?

Anyone interested in creating a helpful navbox (Template:Willamette River) from the entries in Category:Willamette River? ---Another Believer _(Talk) 18:55, 8 August 2024 (UTC)

Requested move at Talk:Tonlé Sap#Requested move 10 July 2024

There is a requested move discussion at Talk:Tonlé Sap#Requested move 10 July 2024 that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. Reading Beans 17:45, 14 August 2024 (UTC)

River AfD

The notability of two rivers in Italy is being discussed at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Limentra di Sambuca. Your contribution is welcome. Markussep ^Talk 07:22, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

River Ock, Surrey

The map in the infobox for River Ock, Surrey incorrectly shows the location of the River Ock in the Vale of White Horse. The co-ordinates in the article seem to be correct, so I have no idea why it is displaying incorrectly. Someone who knows how to fix this, please will you? Thankyou. Motacilla (talk) 09:28, 22 November 2024 (UTC)

No map was defined in the original infobox, I've done a bodge to, at least, get it in the right place. Murgatroyd49 (talk) 09:55, 22 November 2024 (UTC)

River related discussion

Here you can find a discussion about an article on a waterfall. Thanks in advance for your contributions, --Pampuco (talk) 18:44, 26 November 2024 (UTC)

Requested move at Talk:Tana (Norway)#Requested move 28 December 2024

There is a requested move discussion at Talk:Tana (Norway)#Requested move 28 December 2024 that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. Reading Beans, Duke of Rivia 20:44, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

Assistance - Palani Falls

In May 2024, I created an article on a surge waterfall located in Himachal Pradesh, Palani Falls. The article has remained unreviewed ever since, primarily due to a lack of sufficient reliable sources.

While an editor, User:Voorts, pointed out that the article clearly lacked enough reliable sources and questioned its notability, he did not rule out the possibility that the subject might merit an article. He referred me to Wikipedia:WikiProject Rivers for assistance and help.

While I admit some of the sources in the article are questionable, I believe the subject does meet Wikipedia's notability guideline for geographical features. Other published articles in the same or similar category would be Ninai Falls, Rehala Falls, Hirni Falls or Purwa Falls, to name a few.

In the context of Indian geography, and more specifically the geography and ecology of Himachal Pradesh, I hold that the topic of the article, Palani Falls, is relevant and notable. I request help with referencing on the article. This may be a stretch, but I would also appreciate co-authors, if any.

If this isn't the right place to ask, do give me a heads-up. Regards, Dissoxciate (talk) 18:26, 9 January 2025 (UTC)

Question on consistency in naming

I've done a little editing to a couple articles on streams in Erie County, Pennsylvania and I noticed that the disambiguation among them is not exactly consistent. Some are disambiguated by what they are a tributary of while others are disambiguated by being in Pennsylvania. While it seems both follow the WikiProject naming convention, the inconsistency kinda bugs me. Would any moving be warranted? TornadoLGS (talk) 21:47, 22 January 2025 (UTC)

Before changing a disambiguator from (tributary of ) to (Pennsylvania), make sure the other is not also in Pennsylvania! —Tamfang (talk) 02:49, 23 January 2025 (UTC)

I've not seen (tributary of ) used precisely as the disambiguator. I've come to prefer the (Parent river tributary) formulation, but there are cases where the same name is used for several tributaries of same parent river, so some other disambiguation is needed. Also note that where the parent river is used by itself in parentheses, for example Beaver Run (County Line Branch), I think in a past discussion there was agreement that Beaver Run (County Line Branch tributary) is preferred, but of course there should be redirects in place either way. older ≠ wiser 12:54, 23 January 2025 (UTC)

Good article reassessment for River Avon, Bristol

River Avon, Bristol has been nominated for a good article reassessment. If you are interested in the discussion, please participate by adding your comments to the reassessment page. If concerns are not addressed during the review period, the good article status may be removed from the article. Z1720 (talk) 02:23, 4 February 2025 (UTC)

Should we have separate creek and river categories?

Over the past few days, Volcanoguy has started to split river categories into rivers and creeks. For example:

• Rivers of Santa Barbara County, California → Creeks of Santa Barbara County, California
• Rivers of the Sierra Nevada (United States) → Creeks of the Sierra Nevada (United States)
• Rivers of Dunedin → Creeks of Dunedin
• Rivers of Mississippi → Creeks of Mississippi

I'd like to discuss whether editors think we should split these types of categories.

A relevant guideline is the defining characteristic criterion:

Defining characteristics of an article's topic are central to categorizing the article. A defining characteristic is one that reliable sources commonly and consistently refer to in describing the topic, such as the nationality of a person or the geographic location of a place.

Is the distinction between a creek and a river a defining characteristic? Volcanoguy appears to have used the fact that a stream was named "creek" to sort into the creek category. Do we wish to categorize based on the name of a stream?

There have been previous discussions that may be relevant. In 2016, editors decided to merge river and stream categories. That discussion considered whether "creek" was a term in a national variety of English. There was also a smaller discussion in 2016 that decided to merge a few "creek" categories back into "river" categories.

If we decide the merge the "creek" categories, the question arises what should we merge back into? We could simply undo the split and merge back into the "rivers" category. Volcanoguy has suggested using "watercourses" as the name in the category, which was also suggested in the 2016 merge discussion. I'm going to make two subsections below to discuss (a) whether we should keep the "creek" categories and (b) what to name the resulting merged categories.

Pinging participants in the 2016 discussion: Agathoclea, Antepenultimate, AussieLegend, Aymatth2, Bermicourt, BU_Rob13, Carlossuarez46, Czar, Daniel Case, DanTD, DexDor, Dimadick, Es0884, Ezhiki, First Light, Gjs238, Jemmans, Herostratus, HyperGaruda, Jakec, Jc37, Jokulhlaup, Kerry Raymond, Lankiveil, Laurel Lodged, Lemongirl942, Le Deluge, Marcocapelle, Mark Hurd, Neutrality, Novarupta, Nyttend, Od Mishehu, Pampuco, PanchoS, Peterkingiron, PaulBetteridge, Presidentman, Rathfelder, Renata3, RevelationDirect, RioHondo, Stevietheman, Tevildo, TheCatalyst31, TimK MSI, Vandraedha, YBG

— hike395 (talk) 12:34, 2 March 2025 (UTC)

Creek is mostly an American term. I dont think it works in a wider context. Rathfelder (talk) 12:52, 2 March 2025 (UTC)

• Question Could we have a brief summary of the status quo (and the effect of the proposed changes) to assist with the discussion? A very quick look at the existing categories would suggest that all watercourses, of any size, are listed under "River" categories, and the proposal is to split off a subset of these into "Creek" categories, but this may be wrong. Tevildo (talk) 13:08, 2 March 2025 (UTC)

Tevildo is correct. The state before Volcanoguy started to edit was that watercourses/streams of any size were listed under "River" categories. The proposal is to split those categories: if the watercourse/stream has the name "Creek" in it, it gets put into a "Creek" category. Otherwise it stays in the "River" category. (Volcanoguy to correct me if this is wrong). — hike395 (talk) 16:22, 2 March 2025 (UTC)

Shall we create creek categories?

Scioto River near its source

Slippery Rock Creek midway through its course

Yes, although we should reserve the option of using "Bridges over Rivers" categories for both rivers and creeks. -------User:DanTD (talk) 12:45, 2 March 2025 (UTC)

Evidently somebody didn't understand what I was saying. I thought it was fairly clear, but yes I do think there should be separate categories for rivers and creeks, and make more creek categories. But I also think the subcategory "Bridges over rivers in (Foo)" should apply to both, as well as streams, and other waterways when necessary. ---------User:DanTD (talk) 13:07, 2 March 2025 (UTC)

• No, first because "creek" means something different in American English and in British English, and second because there is no objective cutoff when a creek starts to become a river or vice versa. Marcocapelle (talk) 13:19, 2 March 2025 (UTC)
• No. Agree with Marcocapelle, they mean different things in Anerican and British English.Davidstewartharvey (talk) 13:32, 2 March 2025 (UTC)
• No. I came to this conclusion primarily because there is no definite dividing line, but then read the other !vites and realized that WP:ENGVAR is an even stronger reason. YBG (talk) 13:58, 2 March 2025 (UTC)
• No Even in American English, "creek" can mean both a freshwater stream and a saltwater inlet (Tidal creek) or passage between islands (see the creeks in Overseas Highway). There is no firm distinction between creek and river in the names of streams in the U.S. For instance, Econfina Creek has a greater flow than Econfina River (a blogger has opined that Econfina Creek is a river while Econfina River is a creek). - Donald Albury 14:21, 2 March 2025 (UTC)
• No The terminology is inconsistent. Dimadick (talk) 14:47, 2 March 2025 (UTC)
• No Whether a watercourse has been identified as a river or a creek often depends upon its size in comparison to other watercourses in the vicinity rather than some uniform specification. A river in an area of low annual precipitation may carry less water than a creek in an area of higher annual precipitation. This discussion might be extended to separate categories for brooks in areas where that terminology is preferred over creeks, or gulches in arid terrain where flow occurs very rarely, or ditches which flow nearly continuously after being constructed to drain low-lying areas, or canals into which natural watercourses have been diverted for transportation. Thewellman (talk) 16:48, 2 March 2025 (UTC)
• No per others, and from a user perspective I can imagine plenty of situations where someone looking for "rivers" in a particular area covered by a category would be generally interested in watercourses. CMD (talk) 16:50, 2 March 2025 (UTC)

No -- as far as I know there is no fundamental natural distinction, and it seems inconvenient, when looking for all the rivers in an area, to have separate categories for rivers and creeks. It also makes categorization more difficult. Mrfoogles (talk) 17:11, 2 March 2025 (UTC)

• No there's no objective cutoff, and we can't just use names as I detailed below. Herostratus (talk) 17:40, 2 March 2025 (UTC)
• No per Herostratus. Consider the two images I've just placed at the top of this subsection, and ignore the names. If one should be classified as a creek and the other as a river, which is which? Obviously the top is the creek and the bottom is the river, but the names are opposite. There's a significant degree of overlap between the two, since names aren't systematically applied in some grand structure, so the only unambiguous way to distinguish them is relying strictly on the name, and names aren't a good basis for categorisation across Wikipedia. Nyttend (talk) 19:33, 2 March 2025 (UTC)
• No , mainly because there isn't an universally accepted threshold of some objective parameter that separates rivers from creeks.--Pampuco (talk) 20:44, 2 March 2025 (UTC)

  No, there is no objective way to separate rivers from creeks. Kerry (talk) 21:36, 2 March 2025 (UTC)

What shall we name the merged categories?

If we decide to merge. — hike395 (talk) 12:34, 2 March 2025 (UTC)

• Technically "watercourse" is correct, but "river" is used more often. Marcocapelle (talk) 13:23, 2 March 2025 (UTC)
• I would say we should use the Rivers and streams, as the first article, Abadi Creek, on the says Abadi Creek is a stream, so is recognised as a stream.Davidstewartharvey (talk) 13:36, 2 March 2025 (UTC)
• "Rivers and streams" would avoid the WP:ENGVAR and avoid trying to determin when a stream is big enough to be a river, or vice versa. - RevelationDirect (talk) 13:41, 2 March 2025 (UTC)
• Either rivers and streams or watercourses. YBG (talk) 13:45, 2 March 2025 (UTC)
• "Rivers and streams" sounds best. - Donald Albury 14:23, 2 March 2025 (UTC)

Watercourses, to be sufficiently general Mrfoogles (talk) 17:12, 2 March 2025 (UTC)

• I'll repeat my 2016 !vote for watercourses. "Rivers and streams" has the problem that provoked this discussion, namely that given watercourse that isn't a river may be a "stream", a "creek", a "burn", a "beck", or indeed have a name that doesn't include any description (Roaring Meg). "Watercourses" is the most generic term available. Tevildo (talk) 17:22, 2 March 2025 (UTC)

• That being said, "Rivers and streams" is much better than plain "Rivers". Tevildo (talk) 17:35, 2 March 2025 (UTC)

Names don't much matter IMO. As I blathered about below, many similar things that we can group together have different names. "X Tower", "Y Building", "Z Centre" can all be grouped under "Skyscrapers". We just use our best common sense for stuff like that. (Norman's Woe is not grouped with Woes but rather with islands since it is one, etc.) Herostratus (talk) 17:45, 2 March 2025 (UTC)

• Rivers and Streams. "Watercourses" is a bit less common and is a bit stiff (we are general publication not an academic one), and my guess is that at lease some ESL readers would not recognize it or know the precise definition quite as quickly. (Also, wouldn't "watercourses" include canals, aqueducts, wadis, large open storm sewers, or whatever?) Herostratus (talk) 17:48, 2 March 2025 (UTC)

• Watercourses. Yes, it is a bit technical, but the meaning is both broad and clearly delineated. Think "lakes and ponds" (the distinction between which even our pond article admits is not clear, much less anyone at WP:LAKES can agree on) versus "waterbodies". If we want to make the distinction that Herostratus inquires about above, we can say "natural watercourses". Daniel Case (talk) 18:51, 2 March 2025 (UTC)
• Rivers, per previous discussion. It's more accessible than "watercourse" (anyone with any familiarity with English will understand it), and calling a small flow a "river" seems to be more common than calling a large flow a "stream" or "creek". Backup suggestion is for "streams". 10+ years ago, when most of my Wikipedia writing was related to US geography, I heavily relied on the GNIS database, and they used "stream" to refer to everything from the Mississippi River to little things in someone's back yard. (Maybe they still do, but I've not used their site in years.) If they can do it, it's likely not a bad idea for us to do it. Either one is better than "rivers and streams", both because the latter name is much longer and because readers can easily infer that it contains two separate kinds of objects that ought to be distinguished. Nyttend (talk) 19:39, 2 March 2025 (UTC)

  That's US-centric and doesn't apply to other parts of the world. Volcanoguy 21:48, 2 March 2025 (UTC)

• Rivers is short and widely-understood for flowing water. Let's keep it short and simple. "Watercourse", while technically accurate, is not in everyday use. "Creeks" (but not "streams") is used in Australia but go to the UK and you find "streams" and "brooks" used rather than "creeks", so I think trying to standardise on a term for the smaller rivers isn't going to work. And, due to notability requirements, it is the bigger watercourses that are mostly going to have articles anyway. Even articles about things called creeks, e.g. Cooper Creek have a lede that says "is a river ..." Kerry (talk) 21:52, 2 March 2025 (UTC)

Extended wordy discussion

(I took the liberty of adding this section... maybe just I will use it, I don't know, but I like to address questions in more detail (or maybe I'm just prolix, you decide), and I think multi-paragraph arguments tend to muddy up the "votes" section.) Herostratus (talk) 17:39, 2 March 2025 (UTC)

So, regarding using the names, that is a straight out. Gut (coastal geography) is a narrow coastal strait subject to strong tides, but South Gut and North Gut at the settlement of South Gut St. Anns, Nova Scotia are just inlets, while Brewery Gut in England and The Gut in Ontario are fast-flowing stretches of river, Jigsaw Rock Gut in Antarctica is a gully, and Gardner's Gut in New Zealand is a cave system. Conversely, some guts are not so named, such as The Rip, a gut in Australia, where the term "gut" is not used. (FWIW, Stream notes that "In hydrography, gut is a small creek... for instance, The Gut in Pennsylvania, Ash Gut in Delaware, and other streams down into the Caribbean (for instance, Guinea Gut, Fish Bay Gut, Cob Gut, Battery Gut and other rivers and streams in the United States Virgin Islands, in Jamaica (Sandy Gut, Bens Gut River, White Gut River), and in many streams and creeks of the Dutch Caribbean". So, some flowing-water bodies are not named stream or creek.

So if we are not using names because they can be misleading, where do we draw the line? We can't. For some entities we will have a source ("Jameson Flow is a stream..."), but that's often enough going to be just some writer's opinion, something she heard somewhere, or the irst word she thought of based on her education/culture, and anyway for some or a lot we don't have anything. Making up our own definition (Stream is X gallons per minute flow at the highest-flow point, creek is less) based on considered research would be OK, or even better would be some official or learned body's definition if there is one (if it is international), but lots of editors are probably not going to know of this standard when they write I suppose. And so some articles probably have "X is a stream..." or "Y is a creek" for similar-sized entities. Which enh, that's not a big deal for the text (they are sufficiently interchangeable to the general public I think), but categorizing on the lede would be kind of random.

TL;DR is that we can't differentiate to the degree useful for categorization, which is kind of a formal naming of the entity. So we have to have to have one category for both, whatever it is named. Herostratus (talk) 17:39, 2 March 2025 (UTC)