Talk:Besor Stream: Difference between revisions

External links modified

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just added archive links to one external link on HaBesor Stream. Please take a moment to review my edit. If necessary, add {{cbignore}} after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add {{nobots|deny=InternetArchiveBot}} to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:

• Added archive https://web.archive.org/20140714195502/http://arij.net/node/5905siege to http://www.arij.net/node/5905siege

When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true to let others know.

This message was posted before February 2018. After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{source check}} (last update: 5 June 2024).

• If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
• If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.

Cheers.—^{cyberbot II}_{Talk to my owner:Online} 13:24, 22 February 2016 (UTC)

Stream or wadi

Is this watercourse a stream or a wadi? I note that a change in the opening paragraph was made anonymously yesterday. Both terms are referred to in the alternative names in use. BobKilcoyne (talk) 04:30, 8 November 2023 (UTC)

@BobKilcoyne realistically it seems to be an Israeli stream, Besor Stream, flowing into a Palestinian river valley, Wadi Gaza? I don't know why this describes them as one thing? If this is about both, there might be a name for the whole system that the page should have? BottleOfSoup (talk) 22:49, 3 April 2024 (UTC)

Synonyms or different things?

Is Besor Stream really the same as Wadi Gaza? Or is Besor Steam a tributary that runs into Wadi Gaza valley / wetlands? BottleOfSoup (talk) 22:46, 3 April 2024 (UTC)

Geography Section

The geography section is a bit of a mess. It needs to be put on order to follow along the course of the river, down stream probably works best. But I'm not sure what order that would be without a better map? BottleOfSoup (talk) 05:43, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

Explanation of my lede rewrite

The common name is the Besor, as evidenced by the sources. Similar to Jerusalem. The river is in the Gaza Strip and Israel and divides the Strip in half. It is one river and does not have a tributary that spills out at the Israel-Gaza border. The Wadi Gaza reserve is not relevant to the lede and is mentioned in the body, especially because it has been severly damaged in the Gaza war. Closetside (talk) 18:55, 6 March 2025 (UTC)

Upon further thought, we don't need the fact that it divides the Gaza Strip in half in the lede. This is evident from the map and from the Geography section. Closetside (talk) 19:03, 6 March 2025 (UTC)

While boldness is part of Wikipedia, given the topic area I think that consensus should have been established before moving the page. Richard Nevell (talk) 19:06, 6 March 2025 (UTC)

The new title was moved without consensus en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wadi_Gaza_and_Besor_Stream&diff=prev&oldid=1217251590 Closetside (talk) 19:11, 6 March 2025 (UTC)

Heck, by a sockpuppet BottleOfSoup. Closetside (talk) 19:13, 6 March 2025 (UTC)

M.Bitton please give the quote saying the Nahal Besor's source is in the West Bank. Also please ensure you are not referring to the Nahal Gerar or the Nahal Beersheba. From the map in Nahal Gerar it seems to be inaccurate. Closetside (talk) 19:50, 6 March 2025 (UTC)

Requested move 6 March 2025

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: no consensus. No consensus have been reached for this discussion despite the lengthened discussion. As a no consensus closure, per WP:RMNCREV, the article shall be moved to its most recent stable title: Besor Stream where it was for 3 years or so before being moved to Wadi Gaza and Besor Stream by a sock account. Prior to this, it was at HaBesor Stream and Besor Stream for 12 years, and since the "Ha" is similar to "The" in Hebrew, I am taking "HaBesor" as "Besor" per WP:THE in this evaluation, which would established further Besor Stream as the stable title.

Move history:

Besor → Besor Stream → HaBesor Stream → Besor Stream → Wadi Gaza and Besor Stream → Besor Stream → Wadi Gaza and Besor Stream → Besor Stream → Wadi Gaza and Besor Stream

Date	From	Performer	Comment
	To
2009-03-06 T02:24:59Z	Besor	Ynhockey (talk | contribs)	Clearer title
	Besor Stream
2010-04-02 T23:07:10Z	Besor Stream	Ynhockey (talk | contribs)	This river's name cannot be separated from the definitive article.
	HaBesor Stream
2021-11-23 T17:35:03Z	HaBesor Stream	Dan Palraz (talk | contribs)	English name, Ha is the Hebrew definite article ("The")
	Besor Stream
2024-04-04 T18:35:50Z	Besor Stream	BottleOfSoup (talk | contribs)
	Wadi Gaza and Besor Stream
2025-03-06 T18:32:59Z	Wadi Gaza and Besor Stream	Closetside (talk | contribs)
	Besor Stream
2025-03-06 T19:07:45Z	Besor Stream	M.Bitton (talk | contribs)	undiscussed move
	Wadi Gaza and Besor Stream
2025-03-06 T19:12:25Z	Wadi Gaza and Besor Stream	Closetside (talk | contribs)	Make shorter (WP:CONCISE, WP:PRECISE)
	Besor Stream
2025-03-06 T19:15:11Z	Besor Stream	M.Bitton (talk | contribs)	Undiscussed move. Feel free to start a move request
	Wadi Gaza and Besor Stream

– robertsky (talk) 04:30, 12 April 2025 (UTC)

---

Wadi Gaza and Besor Stream → Nahal Besor – This is the common name of the stream and an anglicized variant (Besor Stream) was the name until it was moved without consensus or discussion. There is no other tributary of the Wadi Gaza; it is the same stream as the Besor Closetside (talk) 19:26, 6 March 2025 (UTC) — Relisting. ModernDayTrilobite (talk • contribs) 16:22, 28 March 2025 (UTC)

• Comment @Closetside, you stated in the above section "The common name is the Besor, as evidenced by the sources". Could you highlight which sources? Richard Nevell (talk) 21:18, 6 March 2025 (UTC)

  We have to pick one name for the stream (see Gulf of Aqaba or Jerusalem). It seems that the Wadi Gaza is used in the Gaza Strip while the Nahal Besor is used in Israel. However, the vast majority of the river is in Israel and the pre-1948 texts the river, the Christian monks along the riverbanks, including the Gaza portion, and the Bible and its associated study (the stream is in the Bible), uses the name Besor. Therefore, Besor is superior to Wadi Gaza. Closetside (talk) 21:56, 6 March 2025 (UTC)

  Nahal Besor is used in English-language joint-Palestinian-Israeli research, not Wadi Gaza. Here are two scientific papers:

  www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/15715124.2010.491797 and www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/15715124.2010.491796#d1e854

  Considering the joint research teams, which included funding from both Israel and the State of Palestine settled on the name Besor, this should hammer home Besor Stream is superior to Wadi Gaza. Closetside (talk) 22:14, 6 March 2025 (UTC)

  If we have two names for the same thing then we should consider the common name as that will best serve information seekers. Based on Google Scholar results 'Wadi Gaza' is used much more often than 'Besor Stream' (1,040 results for Wadi Gaza compared to 35 for Besor stream). If we add Nahal Besor into the mix, that gives 904 results, but that isn't one of the proposed options. Richard Nevell (talk) 22:44, 6 March 2025 (UTC)

  You forgot the alternate "the Besor" which gives 683 results [1], while the spelling "Wadi Ghazza" only gives 56 "Wadi+Ghazza"&btnG=, Wadi Ghazzah only 24, and Wadi Ghazzeh 353. 1622 is greater than 1473, so the scholarly literature perfers Besor. Perhaps it should be Nahal Besor like Nahal Gerar. Closetside (talk) 23:02, 6 March 2025 (UTC)

  There are also 9 for Nachal Besor and 2 for Nakhal Besor. 6 for Wadi Gazzah and 33 for Wadi Gazzeh. So 1633 versus 1512, so Besor is the common name. Closetside (talk) 23:06, 6 March 2025 (UTC)

  Simply 'Besor' is not what you proposed as the title, hence why I did not search for it. If we accept the aggregates you suggest above, 1633 over 1512 is a majority but certainly not overwhelming enough for it to be a straightforward decision. If anything it shows that the two terms are used almost as often as each other. In which case, why should one be preferred over the other? Richard Nevell (talk) 23:11, 6 March 2025 (UTC)

  We have to pick one; that's the standard. And Besor is more common. Due to the style of not anglicizing the word nahal for rivers, it should be moved to Nahal Besor. Closetside (talk) 23:19, 6 March 2025 (UTC)

  I am fine with something similar to what's present in Nahal Alexander. Closetside (talk) 23:20, 6 March 2025 (UTC)

  If you are still working out what the preferred title should be, perhaps starting a requested move was premature as the proposal is not consistent. Richard Nevell (talk) 23:31, 6 March 2025 (UTC)

  Nope. I have the title; it is Nahal Besor. Here is why.

  1. In every other case of two widely used names, we pick one. See Nahal Alexander or the Gulf of Aqaba.

  2. Besor is more common than Gaza (including variants)

  3. Nahal Besor is the most common version of Besor.

  With that I rest my case. In fact I’ll take a wiki break and check on my RMs not earlier than a week from now. Closetside (talk) 01:55, 7 March 2025 (UTC)

  Since you have settled on the proposed title, please could you update the move request so that it accurately reflects your proposal. Richard Nevell (talk) 22:04, 7 March 2025 (UTC)

  Done! Closetside (talk) 22:35, 7 March 2025 (UTC)

Split The evidence presented above shows that both names for the river are in common use. Google Scholar is a crude measure, but it doesn't indicate that one is overwhelmingly more common than the other to the point that it should be the default title. If we were considering two topics vying for a single spot there would be a good case for a disambiguation page with neither bring the primary topic. Where I have encountered the topic is in literature about archaeological sites in the Gaza Strip, and they commonly refer to the Wadi Gaza. When referring to the feature as such in one Wikipedia article it does not seem appropriate to direct readers to one titled Nahal Besor. I have gone through sources used in the articles on Tell es-Sakan, Al-Moghraqa, and Taur Ikhbeineh

Just wadi Gaza

• Andreou, Georgia M. (2023). Gaza Maritime Archaeology Project (PDF) (Report). Honor Frost Foundation. Archived from the original (PDF) on 23 August 2024.
• Andreou, Georgia M.; Fradley, Michael; Blue, Lucy; Breen, Colin (2024). "Establishing a baseline for the study of maritime cultural heritage in the Gaza Strip" (PDF). Palestine Exploration Quarterly. 156 (1): 4–42. doi:10.1080/00310328.2022.2037923. ISSN 0031-0328.
• Andreou, Georgia M.; Elkhoudary, Yasmeen; Hassouna, Ayman (2024). "New investigations in Gaza's heritage landscapes: the Gaza Maritime Archaeology Project (GAZAMAP)" (PDF). Antiquity. 98 (400): 1–9. doi:10.15184/aqy.2024.68. ISSN 0003-598X.
• Armaly, Fareed (2008). "Crossroads and Contexts: Interviews on Archaeology in Gaza". Journal of Palestine Studies. 37 (2): 43–81. doi:10.1525/jps.2008.37.2.43. ISSN 0377-919X.
• Clarke, Joanne; Steel, Louise (1999). "Demographic patterns and differential settlement in the Bronze Age landscape of Palestine". The Landscape of Palestine: Equivocal Poetry (PDF). Birzeit: Birzeit University. pp. 211–231. hdl:20.500.11889/4685.
• Bergoffen, Celia J. (2023), "The Middle to Late Bronze Age Transition at Tell el-ʿAjjul in the light of exchanges between Cyprus and the Eastern Mediterranean", in Hausleiter, Arnulf (ed.), Material Worlds: Interdisciplinary Approaches to Contacts and Exchange in the Ancient Near East: Proceedings of the Workshop held at the Institute for the Study of the Ancient World (ISAW), New York University 7th March 2016, Archaeopress, pp. 45–52, doi:10.2307/JJ.15135934.11
• de Miroschedji, Pierre; Sadeq, Mo'ain (2005). "The frontier of Egypt in the Early Bronze Age: preliminary soundings at Tell es-Sakan (Gaza Strip)". In Clarke, Joanne (ed.). Archaeological Perspectives on the Transmission and Transformation of Culture in the Eastern Mediterranean. Council for British Research in the Levant. pp. 155–169. JSTOR j.ctv310vqks.24.
• Morhange, Christophe; Hamdan Taha, Mohamed; Humbert, Jean-Baptiste; Marriner, Nick (2005). "Human settlement and coastal change in Gaza since the Bronze Age". Méditerranée: Revue géographique des pays méditerranéens. 104 (104): 75–78. doi:10.4000/mediterranee.2252.
• Steel, Louise; Clarke, Joanne; Sadeq, Moain; Manley, Bill; McCarthy, Andrew; Munro, R. Neil (2004a), "Gaza Research Project. Report on the 1999 and 2000 seasons at al-Moghraqa", Levant, 36: 37–88, doi:10.1179/lev.2004.36.1.37
• Steel, Louise; Manley, Bill; Clarke, Joanne; Sadeq, Moain (2004b). "Egyptian 'Funerary Cones' from El-Moghraqa, Gaza". The Antiquaries Journal. 84: 319–333. doi:10.1017/S0003581500045856.
• Steel, Louise; Manley, Bill; Clarke, Joanne; Sadeq, Moain (2002), "Late Bronze Age Gaza: prestige production at el-Moghraqa", Antiquity, 76 (294): 939–940, doi:10.1017/S0003598X00091663

Uses both

• Horwitz, Liora Kolska; Tchernov, Eitan; Mienis, Henk K.; Hakker-Orion, Dalia; Bar-Yosef Mayer, Daniella (2002). "The archaeozoology of three Early Bronze Age sites in Nahal Besor, northwestern Negev". In van den Brink, Edwin C. M.; Yannai, Eli (eds.). In Quest of Ancient Settlement and Landscapes: Archaeological Studies in Honour of Ram Gophna. Ramot Publishing and Tel Aviv University. pp. 107–133.

  Covers length of the watercourse beyond Gaza. “Nahal Besor (also known as Wadi Ghazzah), is a seasonal stream forming the major drainage channel of the Beersheva basin”

• Oren, Eliezer D.; Yekutieli, Yuval (1992). "Taur Ikhbeineh: Earliest Evidence for Egyptian Interconnections". In van den Brink, Edwin C. M. (ed.). The Nile Delta in Transition: 4th–3rd Millennium B.C. Tel Aviv: Israel Exploration Society. pp. 361–384.

  Written when Gaza was an occupied territory, and a different toponymy appears to have been preferred by the researchers. The Arabic name is given on the first occurrence: “Taur Ikhbeineh is located … on the west bank of Nahal Besor (Wadi Gaza, Wady Ghazzeh), about 3 km from the Mediterranean”

• de Miroschedji, Pierre; Sadeq, Moain (2008). "Sakan, Tell es-". The New Encyclopedia of Archaeological Excavations in the Holy Land. Vol. 5: Supplementary Volume. Israel Exploration Society/Biblical Archaeology Society (BAS). Archived from the original on 23 June 2024. Retrieved 23 June 2024 – via BAS Library.

  ”Located on the northern bank of Naḥal Besor (Wadi ‘Azza)”. This contrasts with De Miroschedji and Sadeq’s other publications on Tell es-Sakan which mention the Wadi Gaza but not the Nahal Besor. Those in French are not listed above, but their 2005 paper in English is. The contrast may be due to a different editorial process as the New Encyclopaedia of Archaeological Excavation in the Holy Land is published by the Israel exploration Society.

This is what informs my thinking. I do not present it as comprehensive, but it appears to me that there is generally a consensus that when the stretch of the watercourse in the Gaza Strip is being referred to it is named the Wadi Gaza. Oren 1992 is the exception amongst the above, but was written in a political context where the local name was given secondary consideration.

The other side of the equation is that given that Nahal Besor is commonly used by Israel readers at articles referring to the Nahal Besor would expect the article they arrive at when following a link to reflect that.

As both terms are in use and used in different contexts, I think there is scope for a significant change: splitting this page into two so there is an article on the Wadi Gaza and another on Nahal Besor. They can have different scopes. The article on the Wadi Gaza can note its historical usage while focusing on the present day extent, ie: the watercourse within the Gaza Strip. There are well documented challenges with sewage discharging into the Wadi Gaza, and that poses ecological problems that aren't faced upstream. It also appears prone to flooding whereas the portion of the watercourse further upstream is less so. And I don't think the part in Gaza has any dams or reservoirs, contrasting with the stretch in Israel. By necessity there would be overlap between the two pages, and they should signpost clearly to each other, but this is consistent with the principle of writing in a summary style; each could have a section summarising key points of the other article and different articles can have different levels of detail. Richard Nevell (talk) 01:02, 13 March 2025 (UTC)

It is clear from the uses both section they are the same stream; hence I oppose splitting. More formally, a split would violate WP:REDUNDANTFORK, because the articles would be about the same stream. Splitting would also deviate from the standard set by Nahal Alexander, Nahal Sorek, Hadera Stream, or the Lakhish River, or any other stream in Israel, Palestine, or both, with an etymologically different Hebrew and Arabic name.

From every example where both terms are used, Besor is preferred to Gaza. Furthermore, the scholarly literature slightly favors Besor to Gaza. Hence, move to Besor. Closetside (talk) 04:39, 13 March 2025 (UTC)

As outlined above, the proposed split would create two pages with different scope. By a strict reading the terms are interchangeable, but their use in the literature shows that they are used in different contexts. It is similar to how we have an article on châteaux and one on castles. Changing the emphasis to be about the use of the terms makes them distinct subjects. Richard Nevell (talk) 07:42, 13 March 2025 (UTC)

This is different. Chateaus are a subset of castles, but there is only one Nahal Besor. See WP:NCRIVER which clearly suggests one page with Nahal Besor as its name. The relevant section is quoted below.

Some rivers have names with multiple spellings which vary with the different countries the rivers pass through. An example would be the Cunene River in Angola, which is known as the Kunene River in Namibia. Occasionally, a river can have several genuinely distinct names. For example, the Cuando River not only has the variant spelling Kwando, it's also called the Linyanti and the Chobe. The following rules are suggested for choosing a primary name for such a river:

• If the river is particularly famous or most commonly mentioned under one name, then choose that name.
• If the section of the river that uses a particular name is much longer than other sections, then use that as the name.
• If everything else is equal, then choose the name for the section of the river closest to the river's mouth, since generally that is where the river is widest.

It is important that all the alternate names redirect to the name chosen for the article title. This helps prevent the creation of duplicate articles.

It is clear that Besor is preferred to Gaza (it outnumbers Gaza in the literature and when both are mentioned, Besor is always given precedence). Considering that, even if the advantage isn't significant enough, Gaza is not the common name. If so, because the upper section (where Besor is used) is much longer than the lower section (where Gaza is used), Nahal Besor should be the name. Closetside (talk) 02:42, 2 April 2025 (UTC)

Note: WikiProject Rivers has been notified of this discussion. ModernDayTrilobite (talk • contribs) 16:22, 28 March 2025 (UTC)

I'll give you an example. The lower (Israeli) portion of the Hasbani River is referred to as Nahal Snir (see he:נחל שניר). Should I restrict the Hasbani article to the upper (Lebanese) portion and create a standalone Nahal Snir article for the lower portion? I don't think so and in order for your position to be consistent, you must defend this spinoff, in my opinion. Closetside (talk) 02:45, 2 April 2025 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Lede content discussion

That doesn't explain why you removed the sourced content. Was it to make it fit the title that you're after? M.Bitton (talk) 19:33, 6 March 2025 (UTC)

Yep. Alright, I will include the Arabic name in the title as infobox as well. Closetside (talk) 19:36, 6 March 2025 (UTC)

That doesn't come close to explaining the sourced content removal. M.Bitton (talk) 19:42, 6 March 2025 (UTC)

The only thing I didn't restore was the nature reserve's rehabilitation in 2022 which is not pertinent, considering the Gaza war. Closetside (talk) 19:44, 6 March 2025 (UTC)

It is in the body Closetside (talk) 19:44, 6 March 2025 (UTC)

I restored the source content. I've got other things to do and I will rewrite if and after this RM succeeds. Closetside (talk) 19:57, 6 March 2025 (UTC)

@M.Bitton The article title, which was imposed by a neutral closer, implies one wadi, not a river system. Therefore, the introduction should say the Besor Stream, or Wadi Gaza, is a wadi in Israel and the Gaza Strip... Second, the coverage of the Wadi Gaza Nature Reserve is undue. It was never a de facto nature reserve and is not one today due to the war. Should the Eshkol National Park, a de jure and de facto nature reserve and the wadi's headwaters, get even more coverage? Third, we need not say it divides the Gaza Strip, any user can see from looking at the map or reading the Geography section's final line (it flows to the Israel-Gaza border and then to the Mediterranean Sea, of course it bisects the Gaza Strip) Closetside (talk) 01:11, 28 April 2025 (UTC)

I just rephrased the history section, making it clear the evacuation orders applied to all Palestinians living north of the Wadi Gaza. So a reader could also find it through there. I don't think we need it in the lede - it belongs in the Geography section if you don't think it is implied, which I think it is. Closetside (talk) 01:16, 28 April 2025 (UTC)

@M.Bitton assuming the problem was "removing source content", I resolved point 1 without doing so. There is no source that the Besor Stream is a tributary of the Wadi Gaza, in fact sources say they are one stream. The lede reflects the title - that's a long standing rule per WP:LEDE and specifically WP:FIRSTSENTENCE. Closetside (talk) 01:35, 28 April 2025 (UTC)

I'm too tired to give a long answer, but the short of it is that you need to refrain from trying to impose the POV that you've been after for months. 1) The RM closer didn't say anything about content and 2) I will remind you that you removed the sourced content that mentions the fact that the Besor stream originates in the Palestinian territory. M.Bitton (talk) 01:48, 28 April 2025 (UTC)

1) It's clearly against policy for the WP:FIRSTSENTENCE to go against the tile.

2) You are talking about the Nahal Hevron tributary, which is a tributary of Nahal Beersheva, which is a tributary of Nahal Gerar, which is a tributary of the Besor Stream. Nahal Hevron does originate in the West Bank, but the Nahal Besor originates near Midreshet Ben Gurion; in Israel, not the West Bank. And show me how my edits contradict the notion that it originates in the West Bank?

Let's get a 3O. Closetside (talk) 02:05, 28 April 2025 (UTC)

You are talking about.. you don't tell me what I'm talking about.

It's not about the title, it's about you removing content that you clearly disagree with. You even removed the cn tags that you could have easily addressed had you not removed the scholarly source that I added.

No need for a 3O (there is already another editor involved who can weigh in) or any discussion that involves OR and unsourced content. M.Bitton (talk) 02:07, 28 April 2025 (UTC)

So is the source near Midreshet Ben Gurion in the West Bank? It is not; the wadi's source is in pre-1967 Israel.

What is the scholarly source that I removed?

Please explain further.

Lastly there is no other editor on this thread in particular. I guess we could ask @Richard Nevell but having a fresh pair of eyes can only help. Closetside (talk) 02:13, 28 April 2025 (UTC)

Here's a quote from the scholarly source that you obliterated: "the Hebron /Besor Stream that originates in the Palestinian Authority territory (West Bank), flows westward, crossing into Israel, and ultimately crosses again into the Palestinian Authority territory in Gaza Strip on the Mediterranean coast." M.Bitton (talk) 02:13, 28 April 2025 (UTC)

The source even says Hebron/Besor Stream, making it clear it is referring to the West Bank portion of the Nahal Hevron. Per the Ariel Encyclopedia, it is an indirect tributary of the Besor Stream, not part of the Besor Stream, which originates near Midreshet Ben Gurion. Closetside (talk) 02:19, 28 April 2025 (UTC)

I'm not interested in your WP:OR (the source says "Besor Stream" and that's all I care about). Here's another source for good measure:

the Besor, the largest watershed in the region, flows through three political entities from Hebron to Beersheva and then into the Gaza Strip and eventually to the Mediterranean. [2]

M.Bitton (talk) 02:20, 28 April 2025 (UTC)

This is not OR. This is per the Ariel Encyclopedia written by Zev Vilnay, which places the source of the Besor near Elusa (Haluza), not the source of the Nahal Hevron. Both Arabic and Hebrew Wikipedias agree with this assessment.

Regarding your first quote, suppose "the Missouri / Mississippi River originates at Brower's Spring and flows into the Gulf of Mexico." This does not prove they are the same river, just like your first quote does not prove the Nahal Hevron (and Nahal Beersheba) is the Besor Stream.

It is true that the stream's watershed includes Nahal Hevron, but watershed is defined as the watercourse and all of its tributaries. The Missouri River is not part of the Mississippi River, though the former is part of the latter's watershed.

Also, this proves my point that Wadi Gaza is not a tributary of the Besor Stream - it is its Arabic name. If you disagree, what is the stream in Elusa called? Provide a source. It can't be the Besor as Vilnay says it is, for the Besor's source is in the Hebron Mountains. Closetside (talk) 03:03, 28 April 2025 (UTC)

Both Arabic and Hebrew Wikipedias agree unreliable sources don't count.

suppose.. I'm not interested in your WP:OR.

The scholarly sources says:

the Hebron /Besor Stream that originates in the Palestinian Authority territory (West Bank), flows westward, crossing into Israel, and ultimately crosses again into the Palestinian Authority territory in Gaza Strip on the Mediterranean coast.

That's all that matters. M.Bitton (talk) 03:11, 28 April 2025 (UTC)

[This academic paper] (see map on page 3) clearly confirms the Besor Stream originates in the northwest Negev. Closetside (talk) 03:24, 28 April 2025 (UTC)

Here's a working link to the paper. Closetside (talk) 03:41, 28 April 2025 (UTC)

Here is the map: [3] Closetside (talk) 03:43, 28 April 2025 (UTC)

Not just Vilay, but 120 scholarly papers. The way to reconcile this research, clearly placing the source near Elusa and research that says the Hebron / Besor [/Gaza ] stream is that the former is the literal source of the stream and the latter is a waterflow path used in scholarly research about Israeli-Palestinian water cooperation, for the term is not used outside of that matter. Closetside (talk) 03:11, 28 April 2025 (UTC)

I have zero interest in WP:OR, what other wiki projects say and links to some Google search.

I have provided a reliable scholarly source (about "water management") that says: "the Hebron /Besor Stream that originates in the Palestinian Authority territory (West Bank), flows westward, crossing into Israel, and ultimately crosses again into the Palestinian Authority territory in Gaza Strip on the Mediterranean coast." M.Bitton (talk) 03:14, 28 April 2025 (UTC)

Google Scholar is Google for academic papers. Check the link and you'll get academic papers confirming Elusa is on the Besor's watercourse, 120 of them, the first three I quoted below. Closetside (talk) 03:16, 28 April 2025 (UTC)

A few quotes establishing Elusa as close to the source, not Hebron:

"Elusa was the most important urban center in the northern Negev during the Roman and Byzantine periods. Situated on a rock plateau at the confluence of two wadis, Nahal Besor and Nahal Atadim, ca. 45 km south-east of Gaza, the site provided year-round availability of groundwater that was made accessible by deep wells."

"such as Elusa (in Nahal Besor)"

"Investigations of the extra-urban area of Elusa aimed at obtaining a better understanding of the

development of the city and its hinterland, from the establishment of the settlement in the third century

BCE to its end in the eighth century CE. The extra-urban survey focused on four belts (1–4; for Belts 1–

3 see Fig. 1) surrounding the city. The interior belt (Belt 1; width 50–200 m) comprises mainly large

waste mounds arranged in a distinct ring configuration. Investigations then progressed farther from the

city, to a belt of mainly horticultural land use of a less well-defined aerial shape (Belt 2; width 80–400 m).

Floodplain horticulture was practiced in suitable locations, such as the banks of Nahal Besor (Wadi el-

Khalaṣa)"

These are from the first Google Scholar results. And so on.

Find me a paper outside of Israel/Palestine water cooperation that places the Hebron Mountains within the Besor's watercourse (it specifically, not a tributary). Closetside (talk) 03:15, 28 April 2025 (UTC)

What did I tell you? When we remove Israel from the search, the Besor Stream is never mentioned in connection with Hebron or settlements near Hebron. (["israel"&btnG|//scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=0%2C5&q=hebron+besor+-"israel"&btnG]). Closetside (talk) 03:21, 28 April 2025 (UTC)

separating the sourced content (about the origin of the Besor stream) from the wall of text.

• the Hebron /Besor Stream that originates in the Palestinian Authority territory (West Bank), flows westward, crossing into Israel, and ultimately crosses again into the Palestinian Authority territory in Gaza Strip on the Mediterranean coast."

  
  

• The Khalil Besor river originates in the West Bank, flows through Israel and then reaches the Mediterranean in the Gaza Strip.

  M.Bitton (talk) 16:55, 28 April 2025 (UTC)

Here are my sources:

Elusa was the most important urban center in the northern Negev during the Roman and Byzantine periods. Situated on a rock plateau at the confluence of two wadis, Nahal Besor and Nahal Atadim, ca. 45 km south-east of Gaza, the site provided year-round availability of groundwater that was made accessible by deep wells.

Also consult the map on page 2. Elusa is south of the Nahal Beersheva's mouth where it spills into the Besor. (My position is the Nahal Beersheva is a tributary, M.Bitton's position is it is part of the Besor while the portion that originates near Sde Boker and flows through Elusa is a tributary)

The situation in the Negev Highlands was quite different from that of Edom and Moab. Here, precipitation is limited to between 80 and 100 mm. annually and water was obtained from wells in a handful of places with high groundwater such as Elusa (in Nahal Besor), Rehovot-in-the-Negev (Nahal Shunra) and Nessana (Nahal Ezuz).

Nahal Eshtemoa, an un-named first-order headwa ter tributary of the nearby Nahal Bikhra, and Nahal Sekher are tributaries of Nahal Be’er Sheva, one of the largest tributaries of Nahal Besor (Fig. 1).

Also consult the map on page 3, which the quote references. Here is another link to it. Closetside (talk) 17:35, 28 April 2025 (UTC)

1) Your analysis of a map cannot contradict properly sourced text. 2) That map was uploaded by Nathaniel Bergman, who co-published an article that says:

Nahal Besor is a large transboundary ephemeral river shared between Israel, the West Bank (Palestinian and Israeli territories) in the northeast, and finally, its western outlet into the Mediterranean Sea is in the Gaza Strip.

Further cementing what the first two sources say about the Besor stream and its origin (in the West Bank). Moreover, the statement (about the origin of the Besor stream and its course) isn't contradicted by any of the sources that you cited (including the ones that you added after this comment).

M.Bitton's position is.. I already stated what the RS say. Your interpretation of my so-called "position" is neither wanted nor appreciated. M.Bitton (talk) 22:40, 28 April 2025 (UTC) M.Bitton (talk) 22:40, 28 April 2025 (UTC)

No, the map clearly shows where the Besor Stream originates, and that is in the northwest Negev. Reading a map, just like reading text, is not OR.

It seems that the Besor stream has two definitions in the literature:

1) Within Israeli-Palestinian water relations, it is defined as the Nahal Hevron > Nahal Beersheva > Lower Besor Stream. This is done out of convenience, because that path is most important to the topic. The upper Besor Stream remains unnamed, as it is not important to the topic.

2) Everywhere else, including when the upper Besor is discussed (such as digs of Elusa), it is defined as originating near Sde Boker in the northwest Negev, not in the Hebron mountains.

If you believe this hypothesis is incorrect, the answer to these questions should be trivial:

What is the name of the tributary of the Besor stream Elusa (Haluza) was adjacent to?

Provide an example of a paper not discussing Israeli-Palestinian water relations referring to the stream in the Hebron mountains as the Besor stream.

However, these tasks are impossible. Elusa was built on the upper Besor stream and the stream in the Hebron mountains is called the Nahal Hevron. Closetside (talk) 23:09, 28 April 2025 (UTC)

Another one for good measure, proving it originates near Sde Boker northwest Negev, not the Hebron mountains.

"Three excavation areas (A–C; Fig. 2) were opened on a moderate hill near the confluence of Upper Nahal Besor and Nahal Boqer, yielding flint items dating from the Middle Paleolithic, Epipaleolithic and Chalcolithic periods."

See also the first figure, the location map.

Until both my challenges are answered - which should be trivial if your position is correct - I will rest my case. Closetside (talk) 23:23, 28 April 2025 (UTC)

3O disagreements

@M.Bitton we have hashed out the fourth point of disagreement listed at 3O, but not really the first three. If you have a response, please state it. I contend the Besor Stream is one stream, there is undue coverage of the Wadi Gaza national reserve, and the fact that it divides the Gaza Strip need not be mentioned because it can trivially be derived from the article. If you disagree, please let me and the 3O know. Closetside (talk) 20:35, 29 April 2025 (UTC)

The only point that I aware of is the one that have has been discussed. I wasn't aware that you actually asked for a 3O, but since you did, we might as well wait for a volunteer; assuming Richard Nevell (who participated in the discussion) isn't interested. M.Bitton (talk) 20:50, 29 April 2025 (UTC)

Do you disagree with me on the first three points? It seems you do but you are reverting without any explanation. Closetside (talk) 21:10, 29 April 2025 (UTC)

You asked for a 3O and I pinged Richard Nevell, so we wait (there is no rush and certainly no excuse for you to impose your POV). M.Bitton (talk) 21:12, 29 April 2025 (UTC)

Without a reason, this is DONTLIKEIT. I thought you disagree with me on the first three points but apparently you don't or you do without reason. In order for 3O to work, both sides must disagree and explain their rationale. If you don't disagree or can't explain why you disagree with me on the first three points, kindly self-revert. Closetside (talk) 21:18, 29 April 2025 (UTC)

Since you clearly prefer your WP:OR over properly sourced content, I see no point in wasting time arguing with you. I'm done here (until another editor weighs in). M.Bitton (talk) 21:19, 29 April 2025 (UTC)

How was my content OR? The MOS recommends not citing in the lede if the points are cited in the body later. Closetside (talk) 21:30, 29 April 2025 (UTC)

I admit to having some trouble following the discussion, is the issue that there is one source that describes the stream the way M.Bitton prefers, but all the other sources describe it the way Closetside prefers? MilesVorkosigan (talk) 19:11, 2 May 2025 (UTC) WP:ECR M.Bitton (talk) 20:51, 2 May 2025 (UTC)

Remember that I am a biased participant, although here's how I'd summarize it.

There are a few sources, all having to do with Israeli-Palestinian water relations that describe the Besor stream as M.Bitton prefers. However, this is done out of convenience for the path chosen the only water path that starts in the West Bank, traverses through pre-1967 Israel and ends in the Gaza Strip.

In all other cases, including when the upper Besor Stream is discussed, or when the Nahal Be'er Sheva or the Nahal Hevron are discussed outside the context of Israeli-Palestinian water relations the sources always describe it how I prefer. I have challenged M.Bitton to give a single counterexample, a challenge they have not fulfilled.

Therefore, I suggest the lede describing it how I prefer and including a section in the article about the special water path. Closetside (talk) 19:18, 2 May 2025 (UTC)

Even within Israeli-Palestinian water relations, this special definition is not universal. For example, this article, which is about Israeli-Palestinian water relations but describes it how I prefer it (see map on page 31). The map is based on the International Journal of River Basin Management - Volume 8, 2010 - Issue 2. Closetside (talk) 19:22, 2 May 2025 (UTC)

M.Bitton has not disputed my position on the other three points in the 3O request although they insisted on me leaving the article until I get one so here we are. Closetside (talk) 19:26, 2 May 2025 (UTC)

I have no idea what 3 points you're referring to. In any case, once what the RS say (instead of some irrelevant editor's OR) is taken into account, everything else will fall into place. M.Bitton (talk) 19:58, 2 May 2025 (UTC)

I'm sorry I won't be able to provide any help, M. Bitton has declared themselves the owner of this talk page and that discussing the name of a stream on a talk page is somehow implicated in the Arab-Israeli Conflict, so I'm not allowed to talk to you.

It's too bad they won't even let me fix the typos, but I guess when an article belongs to an editor like this, even that is too much.

You may need to have them topic-banned, show them this edit-warring and the request should be fairly straightforward. Good luck! MilesVorkosigan (talk) 20:57, 2 May 2025 (UTC)

It's more like there are RS (that I cited) that describe the Stream (its course and its origin) and nothing else that contradict them. M.Bitton (talk) 19:56, 2 May 2025 (UTC)

So if I understand you correctly, you have chosen to just ignore all of the other sources, and believe that only your source is reliable? MilesVorkosigan (talk) 19:59, 2 May 2025 (UTC) WP:ECR M.Bitton (talk) 20:51, 2 May 2025 (UTC)

Which other sources describe the Stream's course and origin? BTW, there are two sources (three we include the one about the author of the map) that describe this. They are all cited above. M.Bitton (talk) 20:02, 2 May 2025 (UTC)

I was just trying to provide a third opinion, telling me that you are unable to see the other sources that have been mentioned here on the discussion page is not helpful. I'm not going to repeat them for you. MilesVorkosigan (talk) 20:17, 2 May 2025 (UTC) WP:ECR M.Bitton (talk) 20:51, 2 May 2025 (UTC)

You're accusing me of ignoring some sources, that's why I asked you a "which other sources describe the Stream's course and origin?". M.Bitton (talk) 20:20, 2 May 2025 (UTC)

Here are the sources that describe the River's course and its origin (which is at the centre of the dispute).

• the Hebron /Besor Stream that originates in the Palestinian Authority territory (West Bank), flows westward, crossing into Israel, and ultimately crosses again into the Palestinian Authority territory in Gaza Strip on the Mediterranean coast."

  
  

• The Khalil Besor river originates in the West Bank, flows through Israel and then reaches the Mediterranean in the Gaza Strip.

  M.Bitton (talk) 20:23, 2 May 2025 (UTC)

References