Talk:Jeff Gannon: Difference between revisions

Newer discussions go at the bottom; older at the top. Please.

On policy

my reversion of your edit on Jeff Gannon has nothing to to do with vandalism, and all to do to the fact that it was ungrammatical, with an inappropriate inline link to an external website, and a repeat of information already mentioned above. RickK 06:03, Feb 11, 2005 (UTC)

It was not ungrammatical, inline links to external website's are appropriate, and the owner of the two sites no where else exists on the page. You are as much a liar as Bush.

What part of Talon News, a virtual organization (no physical office, newsroom, etc.) with a handful of volunteer "reporters", and owned by the Web site GOPUSA. "Talon News apparently consists of little more than Eberle, Gannon, and a few volunteers does not already say what you said? RickK 06:13, Feb 11, 2005 (UTC)

" "Robert Eberle ... is the president and CEO of both GOPUSA ... and Talon News." is what you deleted. Are you new to English or what? Where is "president and CEO" or the first name "Robert" in "Talon News apparently consists of little more than Eberle, Gannon, and a few volunteers". Edit the two without losing data if you wish, but don't just arrogantly delete relevant data!

I've reformatted the article to match Wikipedia standards. RickK 06:28, Feb 11, 2005 (UTC)

NPOV

Although I read Kos and Atrios every day, and wish nothing more than to bring this administration down, Wikipedia should not present any bias and I believe this article is strongly biased. I find it quite insulting to Gannon as a person, when it should only present his actions. Among other biases... --Vik Reykja 07:23, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Quote the bias. Describe the bias. Edit the bias. But claiming "bias" withiut examples or evidence is trolling. On the other hand, it is inevitable that right and left wing people will fight it out here; so an npov tag is also inevitable. - - - - - - - May I suggest both sides present their point of view without either side deleting the other's obviously biased (to them) comments? Right wing example: "Limit the discussion to ...". Left wing example: "This is part of a wider problem of ...". Let's let this be a full and complete discussion, with parts eventually being moved to "discussion" or other (new) articles like GOPUSA or "manufactured news", "We create reality", "Republican propaganda", or "liberal bias (USA)" etc. (signed I_started_this_but_noone_owns_it)

The bias is all over the place. Certainly you're not trying to tell me this is a balanced, encyclopedic article. The reason I'm not editing it myself is because I'm not familiar enough with the story to do so. The tiny bit I know is what I've scanned from Atrios and AmericaBlog (I haven't been reading as attentively as usual this past week). I know absolutely zilch about what the neo-cons are saying. --Vik Reykja 08:25, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)

I'm saying it WILL be; let the process run its course and don't optimize too early. There is no way more data won't be dug up over the coming months, and no way to tell which lead will pan out. I'm just saying AT FIRST, the process is the key. Gather data. Organize data. Format data. Improve POV, spelling, organization. Now it is an Encyc article. You don't get to the end without going through the middle. Don't prematurely delete data is all I'm saying. (signed I_started_this_but_noone_owns_it)

External links

Don't include quotes from the external links next to them, that's not Wikipedia policy. Label the link and let the reader take what they will from the linked article. RickK 21:36, Feb 11, 2005 (UTC)

I don't believe you. If you are right provide a link to proof. Counter examples exist THROUGHOUT wikipedia. Link to a policy page saying it is NOT to be done. I do not believe there is a Wikipedia policy to never describe what is to be found at an external link site. I think you are LYING. Any link to any Wikipedia policy concerning external links would advance this conversation.

This discussion motivated me to search for the policy myself. The only policy is guidance (not rules) at [1].

An example there of the CORRECT WAY to list external liks is:

• The Memory Hole by Russ Kick, a website which "exists to preserve and spread material that is in danger of being lost, is hard to find, or is not widely known" [2]. It is regularly updated with new documents, which are often obtained by the editor himself through Freedom of Information Act requests. The site also provides links to reports on external sites.

I'll assume you honestly believed your mistaken notions and accept your apologies.

Please restore my external links to being PROPERLY DESCRIBED. Feel free to edit the descriptions (of course), but deleting them is VANDALISM.

Stop calling differences of agreement vandalism. Your example does not say that you should put a full paragraph of quotes from the linked article in the description. If you want to cut it down to one or two sentences, that's fine, but the quotes are excessive. RickK 08:37, Feb 12, 2005 (UTC)

Done, as requested. I hope our future encounters are more pleasant for BOTH of us.

Balance with conservative POV

Rick, one of the quotes from an external link contained just about the only conservative POV expressed here. Therefore I worked on the Controversy section a bit to try to get some more balance back in. Betsy Devine

It looks fine to me. RickK 05:26, Feb 12, 2005 (UTC)

Dispute on Dkosopedia

I have no objection to including Dkosopedia among the external links. Labeling it "The most complete site on the web on Jeff Gannon" is unencyclopedia-like and misleading. It is unencyclopedia-like because "The most complete" is puffery rather than description. It is misleading because it implies that Dkosopedia is a neutral source of information. I am changing the label to "A wiki-like compilation of the case against Jeff Gannon". I also think we should arrange the External Links list to put news on top and opinion pieces or partisan material on the bottom.

Betsy Devine

Your pruning and editing is rather good. Thanks for improving my input. I added back one external link... improving your input. You're welcome. [signed I_started_this_don't_own_it_blahblahblah]

Some questions the article might discuss

Taken from "America blog".

1. When did GannonGuckert adopt the pseudonym?
2. If GannonGuckert did nothing wrong, and this is just a liberal witch hunt of some poor innocent guy who's only crime is being a conservative, then why did Talon News and GOPUSA delete all of Gannon's old articles, and a slew of other articles dealing with gay issues?
3. Who was this "client" who Gannon bought the Web addresses MilitaryEscortsM4M.com and MilitaryEscorts.com?
4. What was the client intending to do with those addresses?
5. As a self-professed Christian, conservative, and reporter who tends to only report the anti-gay viewpoint in his articles, why did Gannon accept a client that was clearly interested in escort services, and gay military escort services at that?
6. Who is paying the ongoing costs of maintaining the domain registrations for MilitaryEscortsM4M.com and MilitaryEscorts.com?
7. Who is J. Daniels, the other name associated with these domain names? If it's a fake name, why did Gannon use yet another fake name in this instance?
8. According to WHOIS, those domain names were updated just two months ago, this past November. Did Gannon update those names?
9. Who paid Gannon's salary? Who paid Talon News' bills? Who pays for GOPUSA's budget?
10. Gannon says he refused to divulge to the FBI who slipped him the CIA information about Valerie Plame. Other journalists were threatened with jail for taking that position - why wasn't Gannon (or Novak, for that matter)?
11. According to court documents, Gannon owes some $20k in Delaware, from a judgement ten years ago. What's up with that?
12. GannonGuckert says he's been harassed and stalked since the day he spoke out during the White House press conference two weeks ago. But according to Atrios, Gannon's real name wasn't discovered and made public until 10:54PM this past Monday night. How did people track him down at church and phone his family if no one knew his name? Not to mention, this story wasn't even a big story until just about 2-3 days ago.
13. GannonGuckert says he has 750,000 subscribers to his news service. Really? Love to hear more details about that factoid.
14. Is Gannon married?

Obviously these are slanted and a somewhat loaded, but they make the points that constitute the scandal. I understand a blog called "Instapundit" has views on this matter, too. Can they be stated succinctly, or are they essentially reaction to these allegations?

Some other views: conservative voices are necessary in the White house to balance the "liberal bias" of the questions of rest of the media.

Some quotes from the site. The reactions are very anti-Bush, though the site seems to present Republican/neo-conservative views, e.g. "moral values" ... [is a term that has] irked many liberals, who view morality as advocating a set of designated social policies, not the function of personal conduct.

Using a pseudonym is not a big deal: Mark Twain did it. Article by Sher Zieve (Response, seen elsewhere, "Twain pimped men?") The porn site domain names were not registered for him, they were from an ex-client who never used them. Lack of impartiality is a fact of life. Refers to his family.

A brief summary with some information about the domain names.

Another summary

Unsourced quotes from Gannon's site: to wikiquote.

Social Security reform has long been regarded as the “third rail” of American politics, a comparison of an attempt to change FDR’s retirement program to making contact with a subway car’s electrical source. The warning is clear: touch it and you die. It has scared off politicians for decades, but President Bush has decided to defy those who lack the moral courage to save a system that most young people doubt will ever pay them benefits.

---

The Old Media has been promoting the idea that George W. Bush should tone down or cancel his inaugural celebration because we are at war and the tsunami, world hunger, etc.

---

Oddly enough there have been no calls for canceling the Oscars, the Super Bowl, the President's Day federal holiday or Donald Trump's wedding.

---

There were many more ties between al Qaeda and Iraq than there were between the White House and Enron. So how come the Democrats spend so much time talking about Ken Lay instead of Saddam Hussein?

---

Thank you. Senate Democratic leaders have painted a very bleak picture of the U.S. economy. [Senate Minority Leader] Harry Reid [D-NV] was talking about soup lines. And [Senator] Hillary Clinton [D-NY] was talking about the economy being on the verge of collapse. Yet in the same breath they say that Social Security is rock solid and there's no crisis there. How are you going to work -- you've said you are going to reach out to these people -- how are you going to work with people who seem to have divorced themselves from reality? [3] (Suggests he constantly gave the party "softball" questions).

Portrait

I understand this is a picture of him. Can anyone confirm or deny? Mr. Jones 09:13, 14 Feb 2005 (UTC)

I can confirm that this is his face. I don't have the time right now to study it for photoshopping. --Vik Reykja 09:35, 14 Feb 2005 (UTC)

" reveal what they see as Gannon's hypocrisy, not his sexuality.

When I originally wrote this sentence, I'd assumed that "what they see as" was understood. But the addition by 198.138.135.83 is probably a good idea, considering that Conservatives dispute the hypocrisy claim.

betsythedevine 18:03, 14 Feb 2005 (UTC)

"reveal possible hypocrisy." is better than "reveal what they see as Gannon's hypocrisy, not his sexuality." because the issue is not just Gannon's possible hypocrisy but MORE IMPORTANTLY the possible hypocrisy of his employers, the White House and the Republican Party. But that would be the opposite of containing the problem wouldn't it? Remember Watergate and all the efforts to minimize it?

As the owner of the americablog website says, "It's looking increasingly like they made a decision to allow a hooker to ask the President of the United States questions. They made a decision to give a man with an alias and no journalistic experience access to the West Wing of the White House on a "daily basis." They reportedly made a decision to give him - one of only six - access to documents, or information in those documents, that exposed a clandestine CIA operative.". This needs to be mentioned. I only hinted at it but pointed to the link. I hope this comes across as NPOV in the article. RickK 06:25, Feb 15, 2005 (UTC)

The Leadership Institute

Media matters claims that he worked for The Leadership Institute Broadcast School of Journalism. [4] Mr. Jones

Media Matters link does not claim that Gannon "worked" for Leadership Institute Broadcast School of Journalism, merely that he is a gradutate of the Institute's two-day broadcast journalism workshop.

Quite correct. Interesting, nonetheless, and the institute deserves an article. Mr. Jones 18:48, 15 Feb 2005 (UTC)

The NPOV header

Can we remove the NPOV header off this article? Nobody seems interested in discussing what it is that they're objecting to. RickK 05:39, Feb 16, 2005 (UTC)

The fact that it is current news and NO ONE knows what will turn up makes the NPOV label mostly redundant to me. Vikreykja appears to have added it initially and he says (above) "The reason I'm not editing it myself is because I'm not familiar enough with the story to do so." In other words, it looks biased even though I, Vikreykja, don't know the facts. Making judgements when you don't know the facts is the very meaning of the word biased. As a new and current article, needing improvements in NPOV is only natural. Which to me, makes NPOV both a valid and redundant charge. (signed I_started_this_but_noone_owns_it)

If nobody objects, I'll remove it sometime tomorrow. RickK 09:17, Feb 16, 2005 (UTC)

Rick, I put the header back up there because some very striking changes were made to the article. A few samples of what I object to:

"Calling "Jeff Gannon" an "alias" without giving Guckert's explanation that is was a professional name." (I already fixed this.)

"In short, there wasn't even a transparent pretext upon which to classify him as a 'journalist'." (This whole paragraph still needs work.)

"Hypocrisy issue" and "Pornography and prostitution allegations" as section headings.

It would make more sense to group the sexual side of the story in one section with the controversy about making it public. Similarly, the Daschle story doesn't merit two separate one-paragraph sections.

I thought it was a very good solution for people with passionate feelings about the Guckert story to express them in Talk while keeping the story neutral. Considering what happened in the past 24 hours, however, I think it's a good idea to leave NPOV up there betsythedevine 15:12, 17 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Betsy, a "professional name" IS an "alias"... by definition. I don't think there is any particularly negative connotation attached to the word 'alias'.

That said, I agree that discussing things in talk makes sense. To my way of thinking it now seems proven fact that Guckert lied about his connection to the websites (claimed he just set them up for a client VS actually advertised as a prostitute on them) and when he started attending press briefings (claimed April VS video of him on February 28th). Likewise it seems clear that McClellan lied about Guckert not representing a security breakdown or intervention by someone in the White House. It HAD to be one or the other as the idea of the presidential press room being open to just any gay prostitute is absurd on its face and denied by various journalists (Dowd and Milbank for instance). McClellan also claimed that affiliation with a news source that publishes regularly is required... but at the February 28th briefing Guckert had no such affiliation. Finally, both Guckert and McClellan have said that Guckert only got daily passes, but other reporters have stated that they recall seeing him with a hard pass... still up in the air, but if confirmed will indicate a continuing deliberate pattern of deception.

If I start adding text about these lies (and the hard pass allegation) are people going to start screaming 'NPOV' or is this all sufficiently established by now? CBDunkerson 16:13, 17 Feb 2005 (UTC)

I would say it's established. --Vik Reykja 18:19, 17 Feb 2005 (UTC)

James Dale Guckert vs. Jeff Gannon

I think that after the first sentence the article should consistantly use either Gukert or Gannon, but not both. Any opinions on this? (signed I_started_this_but_noone_owns_it)

I would suggest sticking with Gannon unless there is a specific reference to Guckert. RickK 09:26, Feb 16, 2005 (UTC)

Generally I'd think we should use his real name and the alias only when appropriate - such as when quoting an instance where it was used or discussing the reasons for/nature of the alias. If we were to give an alias preference we might as well call him 'Bulldog' everywhere. CBDunkerson

Wikipedia is to use most common name. The Gannon name is most commonly used. RickK 23:07, Feb 17, 2005 (UTC)

Point and Counterpoint: the continuing controversy

See the problem is that the real issue is what laws are to be passsed, which means who is to be elected, which means which party do you trust, which means who are the biggest liars - Democrats or Republicans. And this Jeff Gannon thing is just a small tiny battle (so far) in deciding where billions of dollars are spent and what laws are passsed adding to the freedom of some and subtracting from the freedom of others. Point and Counterpoint is a place to connect the dots and make sense of this controversy in an encyclopedic way. This is not a blog!!! Original research is forbidden by policy. But even encyclopedias point out the point of political events. (signed I_started_this_but_noone_owns_it)

Jeff Gannon vs. James Guckert

Why are Jeff Gannon and James Guckert two different articles? They should be linked to one another. It's the same person.

They *are* linked together. Jeff Gannon redirects to James Guckert. Kingturtle 15:02, 17 Feb 2005 (UTC)

And I have now moved Guckert back to Gannon, under the policy of use most common name. Why was this moved, anyway? Especially without discussion. RickK 23:08, Feb 17, 2005 (UTC)

I moved it to the real name of James Gickert. But I realize it was pre-mature. Kingturtle 23:22, 17 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Are you sure 'Gannon' is the most commonly used name? A week ago (when he was a virtual unknown) that was true. A few years before that we'd have to have gone with 'Bulldog'. Now it's a toss-up between Guckert and Gannon. The print media are mostly using Guckert. In another week I think his real name will be clearly predominate. CBDunkerson 10:09, 18 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Yes. I did a google-war comparison, and gannon is by far more used. Kingturtle 21:53, 18 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Because he has been publishing, and then being quoted, as 'Gannon' for two years now. Of course there is a large body of old pages using those names... and 99.99% of Americans have never visited any of them. That level of usage pales in comparison to the number of people who have heard of him recently. Is the standard 'more used in old web pages', 'more used in recent web pages', 'more used in the general world (or US) population', or what? Right now you'd be hard pressed to find ANY mention of the name 'Jeff Gannon' which does not also reference 'James Guckert', and vice versa. There is also unquestionably far more attention to him currently than in the rest of his life combined. To put it another way... 'Jeff Gannon' would never have received a Wikipedia page. The revelation that he was really 'James Guckert' resulted in one being created immediately. CBDunkerson 11:27, 19 Feb 2005 (UTC)

In one of his first interviews with Wolf Blitzer, he said he preferred to be called Gannon. I don't know if that matters to Wikipedia or not, though. --Vik Reykja 18:43, 19 Feb 2005 (UTC)

A Google News search, which only covers recent pages, finds "Jeff Gannon" to be far more common than "James Guckert". - SimonP 15:03, Feb 19, 2005 (UTC)

Is it Daniel or Dale[5]? (BTW IMO this is the tastiest thing in the Whitehouse since King–Spence 8) ) Kwantus 15:25, 2005 Feb 18 (UTC)

To be honest, I don't know for sure. I took Daniel from the dKos link, but if it's wrong it needs to be changed. --Vik Reykja 17:39, 18 Feb 2005 (UTC)

"James Dale Guckert" google search returns 997, including for example Washington Post stories on the matter. "James Daniel Guckert" returns 8 (One of which is this article). Looks like a mistake to me. Tabor 00:35, 19 Feb 2005 (UTC)

I have changed it to Dale. --Vik Reykja 07:57, 19 Feb 2005 (UTC)

This article keeps alternating between Guckert and Gannon, through no pattern I can discern. With regards to his 'journalistic' activities, he should probably be referred to as Gannon, and elsewhere as Gannon unless Guckert makes more sense. I see no such pattern here currently. →Iñgōlemo← ^talk 07:38, 2005 Apr 25 (UTC)

Talon News now redirects to Jeff Gannon and all its history was erased

Um.... what? why? Was Talon News listed on VfD? --Ben 20:29, 8 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Ah ok. A capitalization problem was the culprit (one of the things that has always annoyed about wiki). Talon news redirects to Gannon (I've now changed the redirect). Talon News has the full article. --Ben 20:41, 8 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Johnny Gosch

Sherman Skolnick has reported on his blog that Guckert is in fact Johnny Gosch.

Google confirms that this rumor is out there but it appears to be solidly out in left field. Johnny Gosch was a Des Moines paperboy who disappeared in 1982. Noreen Gosch, Johnny's mother, has claimed that in 1997 he came to see her and told her of his kidnapping by "a highly organized, very corporate global pedophile/pornography ring. Evidence links this same porno/pedophile ring to the 80's 'congressional call boy scandal', money laundering, drug running, illegal arms deals and more." [6]

Whether it deserves to be mentioned in the article as a highly improbable rumor is an open question, but I've removed it so that it doesn't get mistaken for credible information. A look at why it's so improbable: [7]. -- Antaeus Feldspar 15:47, 14 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Another Gannon Quote

From the Panel on Blogging that the Washington Press Club held not too long ago:

JEFF GANNON: Why does everything have to be looked at through, uh, a lens that represents every particular point of view? [8]

I couldn't help but think about Wikipedia & the NPOV policy (&, yes, chuckle) when I read that. -- llywrch 20:36, 14 Apr 2005 (UTC)