Talk:Cyprus problem: Difference between revisions

Moved old discussion to archive:

Controversies

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1967 Intercommunal fighting

Should we not mention the mainland Greek contingent that had been smuggled in violation of Treaty of Guarantee?

"They forced Athens to recall Grivas and 9,000-12,000 Greek soldiers who had swelled the ranks of the National Gurad on Cyprus to around 24,000 in violation of the 1960 Treaty of Gurantee" John L. Scherer, Blocking the Sun: The Cyprus Conflict p 29.

He also adds an important note "One report estimated that as many as 20,000 Greek troops were stationed on the island. New York Times, 19 Novemeber 1967" p116.

I think its important to highlight the fact that such a large proffesional army contingent was despatched against what were poorly armed villagers. --E.A 13:01, 20 May 2005 (UTC)

Wrong. The Greek forces were ther leaglly under UN resolution 186(1964)to protect the peope of Cyprus from over 10,000 fully armed TMT fighters.

Just to point out that it wasn't a professional army, the only professionals were the officers, the soldiers were conscripts. Mavros 10:46, 21 May 2005 (UTC)

The current text makes it clear that the attack was made on the Turkish Cypriots by the Greek Cypriots and that Greece was forced to remove a number of its troops. While I agree that Greek forces had been increased to a number larger than the size permitted under the Treaty of Alliance (950 troops for Greece and 650 for Turkey), there is also evidence to show that Turkey had also been smuggling in army officers to train the Turkish Cypriot militias. (I was even told this by a group of TMT veterans.) Both sides were at fault in this regard. In any case, I think that this captures the main point, namely that an attack was made on the Turkish Cypriots that almost led to an invasion by Turkey and forced Greece to relent and ensured that Makarios had to start reconsidering the policy of enosis and taking Turkish Cypriot concerns more seriously. Let's not try to flesh out every incident too much. Remember this is for general readers who want to know the basic issues. - JL

It was the TMT terrorists that attacked the Cyprus security forces, the UN and users of the Larnaka to Limasols highway. These were acts of terror and had to be dealt with. Wrong. The Greek forces were there leaglly under UN resolution 186(1964)to protect the peope of CYprus from over 10,000 fully aremd TMT fighters.

Plus, if we start mentioned all the violations of Treaties by the two sides, we will end up with quite a lengthy and not very informative article... _ Snchduer 13:20, 20 May 2005 (UTC)

Now, the first change for discussion: referring to 1967, I have removed any reference to who started what. It is just neutral. There were intercommunal clashes. The TCs say the GCs started it. The GCs say vice versa. Also, the troops increases by both sides were illegfal under the Treaty of Alliance, so let's not get too bogged down with that detail. Regardless of who started it, and whether the force sizes were legal or not, can everyone can accept that fighting took place and that this led to consequences outlines? Yes or No?

That is not true and you know it. The treaty of alliance was declared invalid by the UN because it contravened Article 2 Paragraph 4 of the UN Charter and resolution 186(1964) superseded it.

The Greek troops were there legally under the mandate given in numbered paragraph 2 of that of that resoultion.

Your editing out of the historical facts is unacceptable. The TMT and the paramilitaries of the Turkish garrison attempted to destabilise the Republic of Cyprus. You are trying to portray this as the two communities not getting on with each other and that is simply NOT TRUE. Greek Cypriot civilians were not fighting Turkish Cypriot civilians as you are trying to portray. Cypriot security forces were fighting Turkish state sponsored terrorists.

Population sizes

The text under the Annan Plan is repeatedly correct to show that the GCs are 90% of the population and that the TCs are only 10%. I have never seen this written in any credible publication. The standard position that is accepted by the international community is that the GCs are 80% and the TCs are 20%. However, in the spirit of compromose, I propose to include a clause referrign to the fact that there are no current figures, but that at the time of independence it was 80:20. It may have changhed. We just don't know. We certainly cannot say it is now 90:10 and withotu knowing it would be dishonest to present it as a fact. Can we therefore note that it is contested and put the 1960 figures down? Yes or No?

The population statistics given by the Republic of Cyprus state that 90% of the legal population are Greek Cypriots and 10% are Turkish Cypriots. The illegal Turkish colonists are not Turkish Cypriots nor are they considerd as Cyprus citizens.

"Population: 802,500 (2002) 80.1% Greek Cypriots (642,600), 10.9% Turkish Cypriots (87,400), 9.0% foreign residents and workers (72,500)"

http://www.moi.gov.cy/moi/pio/pio.nsf/All/AB56397DF1BA68F4C2256DCE00423A6B?OpenDocument

CIA factbook places population from 2001 as 77% GC, 18%TC 5%Other http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/cy.html --E.A 13:35, 21 May 2005 (UTC)

To 213.207.149.234 Historical Edits Unaccptable

You and EA have both removed historical facts from the original texts without discussing it. The only reasons why this historic facts were removed was because the show deliberate Turkish aggression and Turkeys brutal violation of the human rights of the Greek Cypriot which was not reciprocated. After doing this you tried to portray the Greek Cypriot as the aggressors by falsely accusing them of attacking Turkish Cypriot villages when in fact they were attacking TMT terrorists who were firing on civilians and UN personnel. But you deliberately went and removed all the references I made to that didn't you because it did not suit you biased view. In the same vain you have deliberately tired to equate legality with illegality. While the original text cited proof of the Turkish ethnic cleansing of 200,000 Greek Cypriot you went and removed all reference to that and tried to portray it as if the Greek Cypriots left their homes voluntarily and that this was equivalent to what happened to the Turkish Cypriots in the south who were never ethnically cleansed and were only 1/4 of the number of the Greek Cypriots who were driven out of their homes by the Turkish forces. You are nothing more than a Turkish apologist and you contributions are neither historical nor neutral. They have all been political. Instead of recognising that the Cyprus government made the decisions in Cyprus you started referring to Greece doing this, Greece doing that, Greece sending in troops unilaterally, all by itself as if the Cyprus didn't existed and didnt didn't for them. Again this was all part of you deliberate attempt to equate legality with illegally. We all know that Turkey tried to invade Cyprus twice in the 1960's and sent in commandos and armed terrorists illegally while the Greek troops in Cyprus were there legally under a UN mandate but you went and removed all reference I made to that. You wanted to equate Cyprus attempt to stop the TMT terrorist violence in the 1960's when there were over 10,000 fully armed TMT fighters in Cyprus with the Turkish invasion of 1974. You are nothing more than a propagandist who removes all the historical facts you don't like (just like EA)whereas I am a historian who has included all the facts so that people can make their own decisions based on them.

This sums up the Cyprus Dispute

In response to an attempt to find an impartial account of the Cyprus Dispute, the following warnings were posted by a Greek Cypriot contributor who objected to the attempt to present a more 'neutral' tone.

Neutral tone. You must be joking. Removing historical facts which show deliberate Turkish provocations and aggression and attempting to equate legality with illegality is not neutral. Its Turkish propaganda.

You have evidently decided to ignore the pleas to try to generate a balanced account based on a text that has been subjected to academic scrutiny. Instead, you are intent on putting up your side of the story and denying any other perspective. What is worse is that as soon as anyone puts up anything that does not fit with your world view you immediately pull it down, replace it with your own text again and say that they are trying to misinform people. You then 'warn' them about their behaviour! Given your clear desire to advocate a Greek Cypriot position in the article, this is intellectually dishonest in every way. Moreover, it goes against the very essence of the Wikipedia. What is so hard about taking the text put up and discussing changes here first? EA was prepared to do so. Why can't you?

Nonsence. You and EA have both removed historical facts from the original texts without discussing it. The only reasons why this historic facts were removed was because the show deliberate Turkish aggression and Turkeys brutal violation of the human rights of the Greek Cypriot which was not reciprocated. After doing this you tried to portray the Greek Cypriot as the aggressors by falsely accusing them of attacking Turkish Cypriot villages when in fact they were attacking TMT terrorists who were firing on civilians and UN personnel. But you deliberately went and removed all the references I made to that didn't you because it did not suit you biased view. In the same vain you have deliberately tired to equate legality with illegality. While the original text cited proof of the Turkish ethnic cleansing of 200,000 Greek Cypriot you went and removed all reference to that and tried to portray it as if the Greek Cypriots left their homes voluntarily and that this was equivalent to what happened to the Turkish Cypriots in the south who were never ethnically cleansed and were only 1/4 of the number of the Greek Cypriots who were driven out of their homes by the Turkish forces. You are nothing more than a Turkish apologist and you contributions are neither historical nor neutral. They have all been political. Instead of recognising that the Cyprus government made the decisions in Cyprus you started referring to Greece doing this, Greece doing that, Greece sending in troops unilaterally, all by itself as if the Cyprus didn't existed and didnt didn't for them. Again this was all part of you deliberate attempt to equate legality with illegally. We all know that Turkey tried to invade Cyprus twice in the 1960's and sent in commandos and armed terrorists illegally while the Greek troops in Cyprus were there legally under a UN mandate but you went and removed all reference I made to that. You wanted to equate Cyprus attempt to stop the TMT terrorist violence in the 1960's when there were over 10,000 fully armed TMT fighters in Cyprus with the Turkish invasion of 1974. You are nothing more than a propagandist who removes all the historical facts you don't like (just like EA)whereas I am a historian who has included all the facts so that people can make their own decisions based on them.

Warning to 213.207.149.234

Stop using this page as a Turkish propaganda site and stop trying to equate legality with illegality and remove all references to Turkeys crimes against humanity. Your attempt to equate Turkeys brutal and savage ethnic cleansing of 200,000 Greek Cypriots with the UN/UK transfer of 51,000 Turkish Cypriots to the occupied areas as demanded by Tureky following threats to bomb the free areas is UNACCPTABLE.

Your portrayal of the events of 1967 is nothing short of Turkish propaganda. Why did you exclude all reference to Turkish terrorist attacks on UN peacekeepers and all users of the Larnaka to Limasol highway.

All the long you have deliberatly tried to portray the Greek Cypriots as the aggressors by leaving out all reference to Turkish state sponsored terrorism in Cyprus to which the Cypriot securitiy forces were duty bound to respond to. Your allegation that Greek Cypriot atacked Turkish Cypriot villages is unacceptable. They did not attack Turkish Cypriot villages at all. They attacked the terrorists who were in them after they were attack themselves. But that's what you've been calculating all the long isn't it?

Warning to E.A.

The same warning to you. Stop using this page as a Turkish propaganda site. The history of Turkish aggression in Cyprus WILL be given like it or not. Your attempt to remove it and introduce a Turkish biased propaganda account is sabotage.

This discussion forum is percisely for the purpose of airing of views. If the other side doesn't like it, then too bad. You are entitled to your opinions as well.....Just like the Turkish Cypriot people. Self-Determination and Freedom is an inalienable right. It's amazing how many people forget that.

Expatkiwi 19:19 20 MAY 2005 (UTC)

This is getting beyond ridiculous

With an attitude like that, no wonder neither side can seriously live together in a unitary state. If neither side wishes to leave the island, then partition is the only answer.

Expatkiwi 19:16 20 MAY 2005 (UTC)

Referendum results table

I dont think its neutral to place Turkish Cypriots under "Areas of the Republic of Cyprus" and "Republic of Cyprus Citizens". TRNC is neither an area of RoC nor are its citizen part of RoC. I took a leaf out of BBC http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/3656753.stm and renamed it Turkish Cypriot North and Greek Cypriot South. --E.A 19:00, 21 May 2005 (UTC)