Talk:Gay agenda: Difference between revisions

Unlinked homosexual lifestyle

The term homosexual lifestyle is currently a redirect to LGBT culture, which is not the pejorative sense in which it is being used in this sentence in the lead:

Additionally, it has been used by social conservatives and others to describe alleged goals of LGBT rights activists, such as recruiting heterosexuals into what conservatives term a "homosexual lifestyle".

The term was recently the subject of an Afd which determined that there is no consensus to change the current redirect. So, I've unlinked the term for now, so it doesn't target a suprising destination article.

One solution for this, would be to expand the redirect into an article about the term homosexual lifestyle itself. There is already nearly enough information about the term in the Afd itself, to create a brief article; see Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2019 May 24#History of the term. If that is done, the wikilink in the lead should be reinstated. Mathglot (talk) 00:58, 9 June 2019 (UTC)

So what do you think "homosexual lifestyle" means, if it isn't LGBT culture? Equinox ◑ 08:29, 24 April 2021 (UTC)

It's used to imply that being gay is simply a lifestyle choice rather than an innate quality of a person. People use it to disparage having same-sex partners, not waving rainbow flags. The current redirect is not optimal. --Sangdeboeuf (talk) 20:45, 10 June 2021 (UTC)

It seems to me that homosexual/gay agenda is very nearly the same subject as homosexual lifestyle -- they are both jargon terms that refer to essentially the same conspiracy theory. I propose that homosexual lifestyle should redirect to this article itself. Jno.skinner (talk) 18:56, 17 June 2021 (UTC)

Agreed. I've listed it at RfD. --Sangdeboeuf (talk) 19:41, 17 June 2021 (UTC)

Source?

Can someone please add a source on it being introduced by Christian right or add the "citation needed" tag? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.102.202.78 (talk) 09:44, 23 January 2020 (UTC)

Presumably you refer to the sentence in the lead (introduction) to the article. Per Wikipedia's manual of style, the lead should summarise the most important points of the article and, provided the information in that summary has proper sourcing in the article body, the lead does not need citation markers. In other words: since the sources are presented in the article, we don't need citation markers for them in the introduction. --bonadea contributions talk 10:32, 23 January 2020 (UTC)

NPOV issue in intro

In the intro, this article calls the term "homosexual agenda" "disparaging". According to Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view#Words_to_watch, articles should avoid words like these. Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view#Attributing_and_specifying_biased_statements says that you can have an opinion like this in an article only if you use in-text attribution, which the intro does not. I tried to neutral-ize the intro a bit by removing "disparaging". It was reverted with the summary "Reverting POV nonsense. It is not "neutral" to pretend that a blatantly offensive slur can be anything but blatantly offensive (and so say the sources)". Golemwire (talk) 22:24, 22 July 2020 (UTC)

"Words to Watch doesn't say that the word "disparaging" itself should be avoided. It advises editors to "[s]trive to eliminate expressions that are flattering, disparaging, vague, or clichéd". Thus, when people who dislike a particular politician or journalist edit articles to say "X is a biased journalist" or "Y is an incompetent prime minister", that needs to be reverted per NPOV, but that's not the same as removing information about the usage of a particular term that is in itself disparaging or pejorative. For instance, it would not be particularly neutral if the article Bitch (slang) were to say "Bitch, literally meaning a female dog, is a slang word for a person — usually a woman" rather than "...a pejorative slang word...", since "bitch" is pejorative in itself. The same thing applies to "homosexual agenda": it is not simply a term for advocacy of acceptance of LGBTQ people, but a disparaging term for such advocacy – it is inherently part of what the phrase means, and it was coined for that purpose. There are multiple sources in the article showing this. To explain the phrase as if it were neutral and could be used disparagingly or not would be akin to saying that "bitch" is simply another word for "woman". --bonadea contributions talk 09:00, 23 July 2020 (UTC)

I understand, thanks. --Golemwire (talk) 15:36, 23 July 2020 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for speedy deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for speedy deletion:

• Praha, Na Příkopě, Pride 2017, Homo Lobby.jpg

You can see the reason for deletion at the file description page linked above. —Community Tech bot (talk) 18:08, 17 September 2020 (UTC)

Requested move 10 June 2021

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved. (closed by non-admin page mover) Lennart97 (talk) 12:52, 17 June 2021 (UTC)

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Homosexual agenda → Gay agenda – More common name. Sangdeboeuf (talk) 03:47, 10 June 2021 (UTC)

This is a contested technical request (permalink). Elli (talk | contribs) 03:55, 10 June 2021 (UTC)

• Long-standing title of a popular article, should be discussed. I personally would oppose such a move - I hear the term "homosexual agenda" much more, and I think it's more recognizable. Elli (talk | contribs) 03:55, 10 June 2021 (UTC)
  • Searching Google Scholar for "gay agenda" returns 30% more results than "homosexual agenda". Not seeing how one would be any more recognizable than the other. --Sangdeboeuf (talk) 04:29, 10 June 2021 (UTC)
• I was surprised to find that "gay agenda" was in fact rather more common than "homosexual agenda" in the News on the Web corpus which covers six different varieties of English (513 hits for "gay agenda", 213 hits for "homosexual agenda"), while the Corpus of Contemporary American English had a very slight preference for "homosexual agenda" (124 hits, with 116 hits for "gay agenda"). I would have thought that "homosexual agenda" would have been considerably more common, but intuitions can't be trusted – unless there are strong arguments made for keeping the current title, I support the move. --bonadea contributions talk 07:19, 10 June 2021 (UTC)
• Support per nom.--Ortizesp (talk) 14:16, 10 June 2021 (UTC)
• Support per nom. I personally have not heard this concept referred to by the current article title, only the proposed new one. - Presidentman talk · contribs (Talkback) 20:46, 10 June 2021 (UTC)
• Neutral — examining Newspapers.com worldwide data (which is US-centric unfortunately) they are about equally common. "Gay agenda" was somewhat more common in the 1990s, "homosexual agenda" somewhat more in the 2000s. Both were rare in the 1980s and both are rare today. Jno.skinner (talk) 22:39, 10 June 2021 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

What has Wikipedia become?

Comparing this page to Homophobic propaganda I was struck to see a change in attitude towards the 2 ideologies. Basically on Wikipedia we criticize and support LGBT propaganda and we heavily demonize those opposing it? Why can't we keep neutral? "Gay agenda" is a real thing. Look at the efforts EU puts to determine the countries to turn LGBT friendly. Regardless if u think it is a right or a bad thing, we can't deny that it exists. We should keep it neutral, we should write as observers. --JOrb (talk) 09:24, 26 June 2021 (UTC)

Do you have anything specific to propose changing? Any actual examples of non-neutral treatment? Any reliable sources to support your assertion that "gay agenda" is a "real thing" rather than what the reliable sources cited say it is? A talk page isn't a forum for discussing the article topic, it's a place to discuss improvements, and you haven't proposed any. ~Anachronist (talk) 09:56, 26 June 2021 (UTC)

Yes, thanks for asking. The page is so biased that it hurts my mind reading it. First, it doesn't say Gay agenda is a real thing but just a "term" invented by Christians when not all Christians oppose LGBT and at same time not only Christians oppose LGBT. And how isn't gay agenda a real thing when EU literally makes list of countries that need to add gay marriages and gay adoptions and to pressurize them to implement such things. Second, comparing it to the page which is called "homophobic propaganda", why isn't this called "LGBT propaganda". It obviously promotes the idea "West good, East primitive". How can we claim we are neuter when we can't accept different values exist. Russia has tradition family, accept it and don't call it homophobic, the West has gender ideology, respect it too. But what Wikipedia turned into is a mean for Western propaganda. --JOrb (talk) 11:37, 26 June 2021 (UTC)

Again, do you have any specific changes to propose, backed up by citations to reliable sources? Can you point out examples of anything in this article that cites an unreliable source, or misrepresents a reliable source? Can you offer any reliable sources about the origin of the term that say anything different from what this article already cites? You have made your personal views clear, but personal views cannot be put in an article. ~Anachronist (talk) 12:10, 26 June 2021 (UTC)

Well, my proposal is to create a page named "LGBT propaganda" since Gay agenda apparently refers to a term used by Christians in US which is satirized by others. Such a page about LGBT propaganda would include the meaning, the prohibition in some states, the criticism of LGBT propaganda by some countries. It gives a fair view as being the other POV of "homophobic propaganda". But apparently the administrators here are in denial and to them LGBT propaganda doesn't even exist. I wonder why they even redirect the LGBT propaganda article to Gay agenda then. JOrb (talk) 12:22, 26 June 2021 (UTC)

Insofar as marriage and adoption rights are a "gay agenda", that's literally no different than the "straight agenda", i.e. basic civil and political equality. I know that hurts some people's brains, but it's true. And you haven't provided any published, reliable sources to back up your proposal. There's already an article on the Russian gay propaganda law. --Sangdeboeuf (talk) 14:04, 26 June 2021 (UTC)

I never said gay propaganda is a bad or a good thing. The meaning of the word propaganda isn't anything bad (check the meaning of the word propaganda here [1]). Gay propaganda is just a type of propaganda and propaganda could be about literally anything. So what do you want me to prove is probatio diabolica. You can't prove to me homophobic propaganda exists either. It's as simple as that --JOrb (talk) 16:21, 26 June 2021 (UTC)

If you want to create a page called LGBT propaganda (which is already a redirect to this article), go right ahead. It would be best to create it in draft space first to give yourself time to flesh it out without worrying about someone coming along and deleting it before it's ready. It may be challenging to establish that the term exists in reliable sources, but perhaps an alternative term exists that could be used as the title. ~Anachronist (talk) 16:54, 26 June 2021 (UTC)

It is not always easy to understand the intricacies of meaning of words and expressions in foreign languages. Propaganda is indeed an unambiguously negatively loaded term in English – maybe the cognate in Romanian isn't negative, but in English it is, as your dictionary link also explains. As for an article about "LGBT propaganda", your earlier attempt was a POV fork with three sources, two of which state explicitly that the notion of "LGBT propaganda" is just that, a notion, a concept that does not exist in realist. The third one doesn't mention the term "LGBT propaganda" at all, it reported on the spectacular failure of extremist groups to limit the definition of "family" to exclude same-sex/same-gender couples in Romania. --bonadea contributions talk 22:46, 26 June 2021 (UTC)