Talk:Genetic studies of Jews: Difference between revisions

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Need help editing lol, this study by Kopelman et al. in 2009 should be added he states: In several analyses, the population in the study that is most similar to the Jewish populations is the Palestinian population. This result is reflected by the fact that for K = 5, Bayesian clustering with Structure assigns the Jewish populations and the Palestinians to the same cluster (Figure ​(Figure2),2), and by the relatively close placement of the Palestinians and the Jewish populations in MDS plots of individual distances (Figure ​(Figure5).5). This genetic similarity, which is supported by several previous studies [12,65,66], is compatible with a similar Middle Eastern origin of the Jewish populations and the Palestinians. WikiPerson28828292929 (talk) 19:36, 25 September 2020 (UTC)

Should be added in the Comparison with the genetic inheritance of non-Jewish populations at the levantine section WikiPerson28828292929 (talk) 19:37, 25 September 2020 (UTC)

There needs to be some actual objective scientific moderation on this article

I'm sorry but this article is nothing but a clusterf--k of mythologies and straight up lies trying to pass off as actual genetic research meanwhile many of the statements don't even match the conclusions of the original research papers cited. Every time I look away from this article for some period of time, a certain group of trolls slowly change the content of the article in a pernicious way to match with their fictitious mythological narratives. There is literally not one objective scientific research to this day that can actually prove that modern-day jews originate from the Levant yet somehow the article is full of statements implying such with references that don't even substantiate the statements. It already says enough that an article about supposed "genetic research" of a certain group of people seems to be one of the longest articles in all of wikipedia. I guess the longer the article, the more room there is to insert lies and push a certain narrative. 69.157.143.2 (talk) 02:33, 17 October 2021 (UTC)

Recent edit by IP

To the IP: Regarding the recent edit ([[1]]), in which your edit summary stated that the previous edit was WP:OR: that is not the case. It is not OR but reflects the source, which suggests that modern Levantine Arabic-speaking groups, as well as various Jewish groups, derive substantially from a Bronze Age Canaanite-related population (which they find was itself a mixture of earlier Levantine populations and a population from the Zagros or Caucasus).

From the study: "Finally, we show that the genomes of present-day groups geographically and historically linked to the Bronze Age Levant, including the great majority of present-day Jewish groups and Levantine Arabic-speaking groups, are consistent with having 50% or more of their ancestry from people related to groups who lived in the Bronze Age Levant and the Chalcolithic Zagros." (page1147) https://www.cell.com/action/showPdf?pii=S0092-8674%2820%2930487-6

Figure 5 (on page 1153) shows how that they model various populations as partly of Bronze-Age Levantine ancestry (with the Ashkenazi deriving the remaining 41% of their ancestry from Europeans as the text explains).

Figure S4 (on the last page) related to Figure 5 and also estimates admixture for the same populations, but with the Neolithic Canaanite/Levantine and Zagros-like componentd distinguished. In that graph the Jewish populations and Arabic-speaking Levantines are both modeled as having significant Levantine admixture (as well as some Zagros-related admixture). I have made some wording changes to better refect the source. Skllagyook (talk) 04:06, 17 October 2021 (UTC)

Stop lying, this is exactly what I was describing above about the trolls. The conclusions of the study are even highlighted at the top of it. You are intentionally misstating what the study concludes. Even your direct quote admits the study says that "the great majority of present-day Jewish groups and Levantine Arabic-speaking groups, are consistent with having 50% or more of their ancestry from people related to groups who lived in the Bronze Age Levant and the Chalcolithic Zagros." Notice how it says "and" the Chalcolithic Zagros which you conveniently exclude so that you can push your false narrative. This means that for all we know, along with the authors of the study, hypothetically all Jewish ancestry may come from Chalcolithic Zagros according to that conclusion.

Not only that but you are also attempting to interpret raw data from figures about "admixtures" in the study which is considered "OR". Any population can be modeled with having certain proportions of various admixtures unrelated to their actual ancestry but the results need to be interpreted by the people actually doing the study, not by you. Even the authors of the study didn't arrive to your false conclusions. 69.157.143.2 (talk) 05:35, 17 October 2021 (UTC)

I would ask you please refrain from personal attacks (WP:NPA and WP:AGF) and please be WP:CIVIL. Accusations of "lying" and assumptions of bad faith are not appropriate and are unwarranted. The study seems to be suggesting that the modern populations may have ancestry from both the Bronze Age Levant and the Chacolithic Zagros/Caucasus region. The study finds that Zagros/Caucasus ancestry entered the Levant in the early Bronze Age and increased over time.

In Figure 5, various populations are shown to have 50% or more of a component that represents the Middle East and combines "Megiddo_MLBA" (a Bronze Age Levantine population - see page 1149) and "Iran_ChL" (a population representing the Chacolithic Zagros - see page 1149).

You wrote: "hypothetically all Jewish ancestry may come from Chalcolithic Zagros according to that conclusion."

This does not seem to be their finding. In Figure S4, when the Megiddo and Iran components are distinguished form one another, the Jewish and Arabic-speaking Levantine populations are still modeled as carrying around 50% or more of the Megiddo_MLBA component (as well as some of the Iran component). It is not OR to describe how populations are modeled in the study (as long as one's own interpretations are not added).

In addition, geneticist David Reich, one of the study's authors (and whose lab was responsible for the study), was quoted in an article stating that the study suggests that modern Jewish and Levantine Arab groups have a genetic connection to the Canaan region in ancient times. He said:

“This study suggests there is a deep genetic connection of many Jewish groups today across the Diaspora and many Arab groups to this part of the world thousands of years ago,” says David Reich, a Harvard University geneticist and one of the world’s top experts in the study of ancient DNA."

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/.premium-jews-and-arabs-share-genetic-link-to-ancient-canaanites-1.8871073

I do not object to incorporation the phrasing of the study that describes the evidence as consistent with the modern groups as having "50% or more of their ancestry from people related to groups who lived in the Bronze Age Levant and the Chalcolithic Zagros."

(Update:) I have edited the sections follow the study without (have removed) anything that could be seen as added interpretation (and have added a quote from the excerpt I posted above - which includes "...and the Chalcolithic Zagros" - and described the findings of the admixture modeling as found in the study). But if you continue to edit war or cast hostile and accusatory aspersions, I will have to report you. Skllagyook (talk) 06:08, 17 October 2021 (UTC)

Again, you are just pushing false narratives. I'm accusing you of lying and pushing false narratives because that's exactly what you are intentionally doing and I've already had experience with such bad faith editors in the past on the same exact article. Besides that, you don't even understand how genetic research is done. I can model Ethiopians as having proportions of Irish and Chinese admixtures, it's meaningless in the end. The admixtures used in the methodology mean nothing when it comes to actual ancestry and the conclusions. You are just trying to interpret raw data in the study to fit your false narratives which is considered ORIGINAL RESEARCH. You're the one edit warring and constantly posting lies and fake conclusions. Even your most recent edit still shows that you are lying when saying "The study modeled the aforementioned groups as having ancestry from both ancient populations" because that's not what the study says even though you want it to say that. The study is saying that the aforementioned groups have ancestry from either one ancient population or the other ancient population or both, which also includes the Bronze Age Caucus region. It seems that the whole point of the study was to muddy the waters and merge two or three completely different ancient populations together so that certain individuals like you can derive false conclusions that are not actually made. I've seen these type of tactics before. In fact, if the study is supposed to be about Jews and the ancient Levant, the fact that the authors even included any mention of Zagros or Caucus populations in the study already exposed their intentions and trickery. Stop edit warring and sabotaging the article with false information and OR. 69.157.143.2 (talk) 15:25, 17 October 2021 (UTC)