User talk:Abecedare: Difference between revisions

Bima Bharti

I wanted to create an article on Awadhesh Mandal. But, i saw that a redirect has been created from that article to this one Bima Bharti. Can you tell me, was it there in past and deleted later on or redirected to Bima Bharti.?Admantine123 (talk) 09:49, 15 June 2022 (UTC)

@Admantine123: No, there wasn't a previously existing article for Awadhesh Mandal before the redirect was created on April 27. If you do decide to create a stand-alone bio, do be aware of WP:BLP1E abd WP:BLPCRIME; I haven't researched enough about the subject to have an opinion on whether Mandal is notable enough to write an article on but am pinging Tayi Arajakate in case they have additional thoughts. Cheers. Abecedare (talk) 14:21, 15 June 2022 (UTC)

Both these policies donot apply as he is not known for single event and has been convicted, not merely accused. How to remove the "redirect"? I want to start it soon.Admantine123 (talk) 05:48, 16 June 2022 (UTC)

Admantine123, you can just replace the redirect and write an article in its place. In case you are having trouble getting to the page, here's the link. I don't remember much about this or why I created the redirect, it was 2 years ago, I think he was in the news or something. So unsure if he should have a standalone article, but if you think there should be one then go ahead. Just keep a couple things in mind, that it follows WP:CRIME since that relates more to convicted people and that if the coverage is entirely or nearly entirely about his accusation, conviction and criminal proceedings including any related cases, etc then it would all be considered part of one event. Tayi Arajakate _Talk 00:42, 20 June 2022 (UTC)

Thanks Tayi Arajakate for the input. And sorry Admantine123 for not replying earlier myself; I had somehow missed your June 16th post and question among other edits to my talkpage. Abecedare (talk) 00:59, 20 June 2022 (UTC)

IVC/Ic

Hi there, As there has already been discussion about moving the IVC page to Ic, which has been more popular, I took the liberty of moving the page and citing Google ngrams. Unfortunately, I did not do this correctly. Could you please fix this? Thanks. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 02:20, 23 June 2022 (UTC)

@Fowler&fowler: I see that the move has been handled by Amakuru

Some unsolicited commentary: I followed the debate at the IVC RM and sighed at the wasted time (esp. that of content editors). IMO, it is important not to get caught up in the obsession of MOS mavens and waste undue time/effort even opposing them since even that credits that issue with greater importance than it deserves. A great and informative book or wikipedia article can be written with 'non-ideal' nomenclature and orthography and vice versa; best for editors who actually know the subject matter to focus on the former. Cheers. Abecedare (talk) 15:01, 23 June 2022 (UTC)

Wise words that bear repeating. Thanks for bringing my derailed train back on its track. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 19:12, 23 June 2022 (UTC)

Somnath

An editor might need some attention. TrangaBellam (talk) 16:50, 1 July 2022 (UTC)

@TrangaBellam: I believe that the issue can still be settled through discussion. If Curious man123 or Webberbrad007 believe that Romila Thapar's factual claim is false or disputable, they can present a comparably reliable source that actually disputes it; if it's just them who dispute what Thapar says, then they can be ignored and any further reverts can be sanctioned. Pinging Kautilya3 as an fyi since they too were involved, though the discussion itself is best continued on the article talkpage. Cheers. Abecedare (talk) 17:47, 1 July 2022 (UTC)

Sure, I agree. TrangaBellam (talk) 17:51, 1 July 2022 (UTC)

Abecedare, we have reached an impasse. My reasoning was made here but will summarise it below for ease.

The statement by Thapar is that the Somnath temple is not mentioned in any ancient Sanskrit texts. However, if we are to state that in wiki-voice, it would effectively require a claim that no ancient Sanskrit texts have existed which Thapar hasn't reviewed when arriving at the above statement. In addition, I have provided a statement by two scholars expressing shock at Thapar's claims about Somnath based on Sanskrit texts, though they acknowledge her study to be balanced.

In light of this, would attribution of the statement to Thapar make more sense? Webberbrad007 (talk) 00:50, 2 July 2022 (UTC)

@Webberbrad007: The subject matter is best discussed on the article talkpage with other involved editors (or using dispute resolution) but I'll try to take a look tomorrow after I've checked the cited sources (assuming I can easily access them!). In the meantime, it would be best to avoid any reverts or restatement of the points already made. Cheers. Abecedare (talk) 01:39, 2 July 2022 (UTC)

@Webberbrad007: As a sanity check, I read the Suman & Singh article and IMO the authors are using the word "shock" in the sense of "today we learned something new" rather than "this is hard to believe"; in any case that sentence is about the prominence of the temple during the time of the raids circa 11th century and and not the issue at hand, ie references to Somnath in ancient Sanskrit texts. Also be careful in citing the the SubVersions journal in article space since it is a a student-run media studies journal publishing lightly-reviewed student research, including heterodox takes. It's a commendable undertaking but not really a good source for wikipedia, particularly for history.

(TL;DR)  I am not seeing the e relevance of S&S as a supposed counter to Thapar. Btw, have you checked the Thapar book itself to see what she says and sources she consults (I haven't yet)? Abecedare (talk) 19:23, 3 July 2022 (UTC)

Seeking attention

Once I got a comment from you in my WP:RSN post and also found your comment on Homogenie's talk page. So, I am here to draw your attention to some of Homogenie's edits that have been reverted by Chaipau. Though Homogenie is currently blocked, This section http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?oldid=1095712189&diff=prev reverted by Chaipau is very useful. These are cited from G. E. Gerini's Ti-ma-sa article, Geoff Wade's PhD cum Open Access Portal on Ming Shi-lu and Laichen Sun's PhD thesis. Content is about a Chinese plate issued in 1407/8 for Dimasa polity discovered in Assam . But that plate was discovered from Ahom royal family who used the plate to legitimize themselves as per colonial records. Recent scholarships don't explain how Ahom rulers came to use the plate to legitimize themselves, so Chaipau reverted the content Talk:Dimasa_Kingdom#Ming_Shilu_(June_2022) . Thank you. Northeast heritage (talk) 01:48, 3 July 2022 (UTC)

Also, Please check Talk:Koch_dynasty#Projection_of_caste/tribe_into_the_past . Northeast heritage (talk) 01:57, 3 July 2022 (UTC)

@Northeast heritage: Unfortunately I am not knowledgeable about the history of Assam, and so try to limit my involvement in the area to, (1) conduct rather than content issues so that editors who are well-informed about the subject can focus on the latter, (2) weigh in on RS/NPOV issues only when it is a clear-cut case. In the two instances you cite, since the issues are already being discussed on the respective talkpages, I'd advice you to continue the discussion and use WP:DR if that is at an impasse. You can also ask at India project noticeboard for other knowledgeable editors to take a look, although editors in that category are in short supply.Abecedare (talk) 19:40, 3 July 2022 (UTC)

Once I tried India project noticeboard but didn't get any response. I had some discussions with Chaipau on different topics but not fruitful. Wade and Sun are wondeful RS, these are cited by numerous papers. Actually, There is no content dispute but Assam-based scholars don't know these things. Assam-based scholars mainly focus on Ahom history and write early modern history using Buranjis but Buranjis are silent about most events before 16th century. So, Di-ma-sa plaque and Ming Shi-lu add new information about Di-ma-sa kingdom in 15th century. Issues raised by Chaipau appear some kind of new guidelines created by him. Anyway, Thank you so much. Northeast heritage (talk) 02:14, 4 July 2022 (UTC)

In Talk:Koch_dynasty#Projection_of_caste/tribe_into_the_past , there is no content dispute but he thinks different ethnic groups who contributed in building the dynasty/kingdom should not be named. I would like to have your comment there because he seems to invent new guidelines. Northeast heritage (talk) 02:35, 4 July 2022 (UTC)

Nuure Hassan

I wanted to create page for Nuure Hassan with reference articles. Nuure Hassan is a former politician, journalists and political analyst. I’ve provided references but it was deleted by Athaenara claiming it was for misuse of Wikipedia because I accidentally wrote the page wrong, instead of listing the occupations, I put in social media influencer and listed social media links. Intention was to proof but it was deleted for that reason. Would it be possible to allow me to re-edit? I will take out the social medias and make a better description and more references if possible.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Wadani1234 (talk • contribs) 07:06, July 7, 2022 (UTC)

@Wadani1234: I have reviewed the draft that was deleted from your userpage as well as the one in your sandbox and their content and listed sources are not sufficient to establish Nuure Hassan's notability for purpose of creating a wikipedia article. If there are other sources available, you can continue working on the sandbox draft; would you like me to move it to draft space where you can work on it for some time and get feedback? Abecedare (talk) 17:05, 7 July 2022 (UTC)

Please move it to the draft space so I can work on it. Thanks Wadani1234 (talk) 22:24, 7 July 2022 (UTC)

@Wadani1234: Done. You can find it at Draft:Nuure Hassan. You should take a look at wikipedia's guidelines on notability for biographical subjects and on reliable sources to see what would be needed before the article is submitted for review, and possibly moved to mainspace. Abecedare (talk) 23:02, 7 July 2022 (UTC)

About my new article

I am writing a new article, and since i know many people here, who will just find excuse to hinder my work or to remove the sourced content, i need some suggestions. One thing i have observed that many a times people come to an article, where i have contributed and if they want to remove some content, which they don't like, they say: ABC content doesn't belong to XYZ article, it should be moved to EFG article. Now for my latest article, which is on the subject of violence against Dalits in Post independence Bihar (1947 onwards) and their empowerment after 1990s, particularly after rise of new leadership in state, i want a title. Is this (Atrocities against Dalits in Bihar and Dalit mobilisation) an appropriate title for that ? Give some advice, i don't want them to remove content on the excuse that this content isn't made for article on this title. :)Admantine123 (talk) 00:57, 13 July 2022 (UTC)

(talk page stalker) Sounds like original research and synthesis, and thus not anything which belongs in Wikipedia. Is there an article on Dalits in Bihar yet? If not, such an article needs to be written first, based on reliable published sources. --Orange Mike | Talk 01:01, 13 July 2022 (UTC)

No there is no such article like Dalits in Bihar. But high quality sources covers the topic, i mentioned. These sources explicitly talks that, how Dalit mobilisation took place first under Naxalism and second by regime change in 1990. The problem is that, this is about something a good section of people don't want to see here. Those who deal with caste related pages (senior editors) know that how the India's caste system plays role here. You may see the edits on Kurmi by RuudVanClerk and the counter edits by a senior editor after that. Please note the "reason", they have mentioned for reverting the edits of the blocked user.``Admantine123 (talk) 01:12, 13 July 2022 (UTC)

Basically, i was inspired by this Violence against Muslims in India. Also, many a time i have remained victim of lack of understanding on the part of other editors. Some vandal once nominated one of my article and 2-3 people collaborated to get that deleted. I asked about title because i know that it has much effect on reader, while he comes across article for the first time. Please suggest a good one. Admantine123 (talk) 01:17, 13 July 2022 (UTC)

I would like to stress more on the second statement of mine that some would not like to see some things, even when they are sourced. And since, the admins are mostly outsiders and don't generally know about the topic and local caste matters, it becomes easy for a vandal to use the forums like talk page for negative purpose. Anyway, here is extract from one such high quality source explicitly talking about the changes brought by regime of Lalu Prasad Yadav in Bihar. There are numerous high quality source on the topic i.e condition of Dalits prior to his rise and after him.

• Suryakant Waghmore; Hugo Gorringe (2020). Civility in Crisis: Democracy, Equality and the Majoritarian Challenge in India. Taylor & Francis. pp. 60, 61. ISBN 978-1000333732.

Our fight is against the wearers of the sacred thread. For centuries, the priests have made fortunes looting peasants. Now I tell them they should learn to milk cattle and graze them, otherwise they will starve.

Commentators appear to be particularly struck by the fact that, under Lalu Yadav's tenure, 'lower-caste' and 'untouchable' agricultural labourers became emboldened in their claims for fair wages and respect from their dominant-caste landlords. They were also less willing to quietly acquiesce in their own exploitation and discrimination. They were more willing and able to retaliate against dominant-caste mistreatment of their persons and properties. The result was an intensification of Bihar's infamous caste wars, with Backward Castes and Dalits retaliating against violence perpetrated by dominant-caste militias. For example, in December 1991, members of a dominant caste outfit that went by the name Savarna Liberation Front were alleged to have gang raped and murdered ten Dalit women. In February 1992, alleged left-wing militants, all either Dalit or Backward Caste, supposedly massacred thirty-five dominant caste landlords in retribution. The opposition Congress Party immediately blamed the Yadav leaders of the Janata Dal for fuelling antipathy among the subaltern population against the dominant castes: party leaders directly held the Chief Minister's incendiary speeches on social justice responsible for the massacre.Chronicling his travels in rural Bihar at the turn of the millennium, Dalrymple narrates his exchange with a dominant-caste landowner who survived the massacre. Describing his travails, Darlymple's interlocutor confidently declares that this massacre was the handiwork of the Bihar government, especially Lalu Prasad Yadav: The government will not protect us. It is on their side. This is the Kali Yug, the epoch of disintegration. The lower castes are rising up. Everything is falling apart.

As far as Bihar's landowning dominant castes could see, the advent of Lalu Yadav was nothing short of a disaster. These perspectives were somewhat echoed by subaltern populations, including Dalits who otherwise had little love lost for either Lalu Yadav or the Yadav community, with which their Chief Minister was affiliated. In the North Bihar regions where I conducted fieldwork31 during 2009 and 2010, a few years after Lalu Yadav was routed in the elections, my interlocutors from the Musahar community -historically stigmatized as 'rat-eaters'-recalled his early years with a glimmer in their eyes. "Lalu helped us find our voice", they said. Some among them told me of the lands they occupied under the aegis of the Janata Dal's earliest years. "The man did little to help. But, unlike the Congressmen, he did not come in the way when we fought for our dignity" 32

Admantine123 (talk) 01:37, 13 July 2022 (UTC)

@Admantine123: I share the concern Orangemike expressed, i.e, the proposed title seems a better fit for an essay than a encyclopedia article and it may be a better idea to develop a Dalits in Bihar article first (if that is treated as a subject category by secondary sources) That said, I am curious about the rubric under which scholars discuss the proposed subject since that would be the main factor in determining whether a stand-alone article is justified. For example, Environmental degradation in the Himalayas and related protest movements would raise concerns similar to the ones with your proposed article, while Chipko movement is undoubtedly a valid subject for a tertiary source since history/scholarship has reified that topic into one. Can you list the three best secondary sources on the subject (not merely discussing the subject) that would form the basis for your article?

PS: Violence against Muslims in India (and similar articles) is IMO a poor model to follow. Unfortunately on wikipedia, most such articles are no more than excuses for POV pushers to synthesize list of supposed persecutions and contain little of encyclopedic content. Abecedare (talk) 02:08, 13 July 2022 (UTC)

Sure, I can mention more than ten SECONDARY sources on the atrocities part and subsequent mobilisation of Dalits by the Naxalite group first and then the leadership of the state after 1990s. Few sources are here.Admantine123 (talk) 07:45, 13 July 2022 (UTC)

• Ranabir Samaddar (2015). Government of Peace: Social Governance, Security and the Problematic of Peace. Ashgate Publishing, Ltd. p. 196. ISBN 1472434919. Retrieved 12 July 2022.
• Kumar, Ashwani (2008). Community Warriors: State, Peasants and Caste Armies in Bihar. Anthem Press. p. 133. ISBN 978-1-84331-709-8. Retrieved 11 June 2022.
• Human Rights Watch (ed.). "THE PATTERN OF ABUSE: RURAL VIOLENCE IN BIHAR AND THE STATE'S RESPONSE".
• Fernando Franco (2002). Pain and Awakening: The Dynamics of Dalit Identity in Bihar, Gujarat and Uttar Pradesh. Indian Social Institute. ISBN 9788187218463.
• Srivastava, Sumit S. (2007). "Violence and Dalit Women's Resistance in Rural Bihar". Indian Anthropologist. 37 (2): 31–44. ISSN 0970-0927. JSTOR 41920038.
• GEORGE J. KUNNATH (2017). "Smouldering Dalit Fires in Bihar". In Alpa Shah; Judith Pettigrew (eds.). Windows into a Revolution: Ethnographies of Maoism in India and Nepal. Routledge. ISBN 978-1351381819.
• Kunnath, George (2018). Rebels From the Mud Houses: Dalits and the Making of the Maoist Revolution ... New York: Taylor and Francis Group. p. 31. ISBN 978-1-138-09955-5.
• Rumela Sen (2021). Farewell to Arms: How Rebels Retire Without Getting Killed. Oxford University Press. ISBN 0197529860.

It is possible that Violence against Muslim in India may be created to club sporadic indicidents together, But, going through some pages of these books one can note that the topic i am talking about donot fall in that case. The last source, and three above it talks about subordination of Dalits under Zamindari system in a systematic manner. The first and 2nd talks about transition in conditions, Dalits were subjected to. Lot of other sources are there and they also talks in depth on the topic.Admantine123 (talk) 08:11, 13 July 2022 (UTC)

One thing i want to mention, that in this case, i would not mention incidents of violence against Dalits in present time in Bihar. The focus will be on the period of caste wars which aroused due to confrontation between landed group and Naxalite groups, on the question of changing the rural power relation. This is a notable topic and many scholars have written on that. This list[1] from South Asia terrorism portal will be used to identify the incidents that will be described in the article. Because, all of these cases are related to the Dalit mobilisation for wage rights and subsequent counter revolution that developed in Bihar. Admantine123 (talk) 08:21, 13 July 2022 (UTC)

Also, i think various such articles on incident of atrocities exist, as for example, Rape during the occupation of Germany. My case is similar, it's not about clubbing frequent incidents but about the violence that occurred in period of caste wars, due to contest between caste armies like Ranvir Sena and Left wing extremist groups like Maoist Communist Centre of India and CPI-ML liberation. Would avoid recent incidents, specially after demise of Ranvir Sena. Suggest a middle way please, (PS:I have my examinations in September and still I took half an hour daily to prepare a large part of article). Should I remove mobilisation under politicians part? As sources on mobilisation under Naxalites are in abundance. Admantine123 (talk) 08:46, 13 July 2022 (UTC)

I have decided on the basis of sources that the suitable title should be Atrocities against Dalits in Bihar and agrarian conflicts, as all those cases as per sources pertains to agrarian conflicts in post independence Bihar. And the sources also writes in the context of same.Admantine123 (talk) 11:44, 13 July 2022 (UTC)

I'm open to the general idea of an article that discusses the marginalization of Dalits in Bihar but I think you need to that, as Abecedare says, in a more general Dalits in Bihar style article. Otherwise, this will devolve into a catch all listing of incidents. Typically, that sort of article serves as a vanity article that no one looks at other than Wikipedia editors with a pov. A well constructed article about the history of Dalits in Bihar, how they were marginalized and discriminated against for centuries, post-independence violence against Dalits, the Naxalite movement, and the Dalit resurgence as a political force, that would be something of encyclopedic value. If you do insist on the list style article, note that your selected title has a modifier problem. "Agrarian conflicts" is incorrectly modified (your title appears to say that the atrocities were against agrarian conflicts). --RegentsPark (comment) 14:15, 13 July 2022 (UTC)