Talk:Mosque–Cathedral of Córdoba: Difference between revisions

History section revisions

I've made some major expansions/revisions to existing material (mainly about the mosque) but I'm wondering whether other editors would agree to moving the "Reconquista" section up and incorporating it as a later subsection of a general "History" section? In my opinion, it's a little easier to follow (and maybe even a bit more neutral) if the building's whole history is presented in one continuous narrative (with appropriate subsections) rather than as piecemeal sections in different parts of the page. Since it's arguably a major change to the article's structure, I wanted to give a chance for anyone to comment. Cheers, R Prazeres (talk) 06:55, 3 December 2020 (UTC)

Update: I've expanded the section about the Reconquista phase as well and renamed it to be a more general "History of the cathedral" topic, so we now have effectively two history sections: before 1236 and after 1236. I still invite comments on whether to keep these two separate or move them to appear together/consecutively. (If no one has feelings about it either way, I'll eventually just move them.) R Prazeres (talk) 21:08, 4 December 2020 (UTC)

I think I've reached the limit of what I can contribute to the article, so I've gone ahead and merged the sections into one history section. R Prazeres (talk) 00:36, 8 December 2020 (UTC)

Weasel words

"considered...by many scholars" is still weasel-wording and just as bad as it was before. Elizium23 (talk) 03:13, 11 December 2020 (UTC)

As per MOS:WEASEL those can be weasel words if improperly used, or they can also be a faithful reflection of what's found in scholarly sources. I've provided several relevant references from well-known scholars, I don't think it's warranted to dismiss this as weasel-wording when no opposing viewpoint is being presented. If you'd like to suggest some clearer wording or highlight a more specific challenge (e.g. any sources I've overlooked), please do, and I'll be happy to help revise. Note also that there's the beginnings of an "Architectural influence" section where this particular topic can be expanded or discussed as needed. Cheers, R Prazeres (talk) 04:25, 11 December 2020 (UTC)

Note on sources about the cathedral

Just a note for present and future editing: I've added some rough description of the 16th-century cathedral additions in both the history and architecture sections, however I had difficulty finding accessible English-language sources so I was forced to rely almost exclusively on two websites (the official cathedral site and artencordoba.com) for information. Both are probably reasonably reliable sources for general information (even if the latter is ultimately geared towards offering tours), but it would be really great if we could find other sources, especially scholarly sources, to add and verify details. If anyone knows of any other helpful and reliable sources, I'd encourage you to add them, or even just suggest them here so either myself or other editors can use them in the future. I hope the new additions in the meantime nonetheless help to round out this page a little. Cheers, R Prazeres (talk) 20:08, 11 December 2020 (UTC)

Possible image for the Commons??

I found an image from the Turkish magazine Servet-i Funun No. 1347, 10 May 1917:

• https://archives.saltresearch.org/bitstream/123456789/129156/307/PFSIF9170510B002.jpg

WhisperToMe (talk) 03:26, 11 March 2021 (UTC)

Recent edits

Hi Venezia Friulano. With regards to the architectural styles in the infobox, the IP added several types that have no relation to the building ([1]). I'm fine with this, minus some adjustments, but another reason I undid the former edit is that, per MOS:INFOBOX, the infobox is a summary of the most important points, so packing it with every detail can defeat its purpose. Most cathedrals inevitably contain an agglomeration of styles, but checking with higher-quality articles of this type (and some of the other Spanish cathedral articles) they usually limit this list to the 2 or 3 most relevant styles in the infobox. The building contains elements of Gothic and Baroque in a few places (described in the article), yes, but they are details by comparison with the original Moorish building and the very significant and very visible Renaissance intervention in and around it. So at the very least, these two styles should be given priority in the infobox, if we are to include any more at all.

As for your other changes about the Visigothic basilica, they were unwarranted. The wording in the lead has been stable for quite a while, and is about as accurate and neutral as you can get without repeating the entire section already reserved for this. This is only a small part of the article's topic, the details should be left to the body. As you can read, even the researchers who believe that a basilica likely existed there do not take the traditional account at face value and have various hypotheses about what came before, so saying that it's split between those who "support" the story and those who oppose it is misleading. Your "6th century" foundation date is also unsourced; if you have a reliable source saying when the Visigothic basilica is alleged to have been built, please add it accordingly to the body of the article. However, since the current building starts with the 785 construction (and that is unquestionable), it doesn't belong in the infobox. R Prazeres (talk) 17:55, 15 January 2023 (UTC)

Sounds correct. Only the most significan info that is uncontested should be in an infobox. Johnbod (talk) 18:05, 15 January 2023 (UTC)

Well said, R Prazeres. By the way, you've done some great work expanding the article. Carlstak (talk) 18:40, 15 January 2023 (UTC)

Hi. Ok, lets clarify:

- The current formulation completely ignores that there are also some archaeologists who do support the prior existence of a Visigothic basilica there. My edit was just adding that, which is a pretty benign edit, not a huge unacceptable change for the Lead. It is simply to say that there is diversity of opinions among scholars currently on that subject. Its completely acceptable. Currently the phrase says that the claim that there was a basilica before the mosque is something "disputed by scholars". All scholars? Mmmm not really. Pretty misleading phrase.

- Its not unsourced. The now deleted source, literally the official page of the Mosque-Cathedral of Cordoba (approved by UNESCO) mentions the 6th century: "Mid 6th Century: The archaeological site of Cordoba's Mosque at the time consisted of various buildings, the most notable of which was the Visigoth Basilica. In the San Vicente exhibition area, some of its relics can still be seen".

- The infobox is a summary, but it must also be complete and not arbitrarily omit parts. Adding one or two words doesnt compromise the infobox.

Venezia Friulano (talk) 20:30, 15 January 2023 (UTC)

I've explained why your edit confuses the issue above. The current wording is quite close to one of the reliable quoted sources which summarizes the issue without weighing in on it. I'd rather stick with something like that than have a more complicated statement that is more likely to lead readers towards the personal impression of Wikipedia editors. I don't see why the current wording would imply that all scholars have the same view, but it correctly implies that the traditional narrative does not enjoy any scholarly consensus, which is the relevant point to summarize in a lead. Again, actually presenting the different viewpoints is what the body of the article does. The wording you previously suggested did not improve on that, as it had the connotation of only "some" scholars doubting it and the rest ("others") supporting it, which isn't warranted. I admit we could surely argue the semantics of different wordings in various ways, but that's why if we're going to reword a currently reasonable and concise summary of a controversial issue, I would like it to be a clear and obvious improvement, not something that ultimately just sounds like "I want more of this POV present".

As for the "6th century" date, the cathedral's website (which is not what you cited, see next comment) may be ok to cite for non-controversial details (but see my much older comment above). But it's definitely not a reliable source for anything more academic or controversial, as scholars themselves have criticized the cathedral chapter for promoting a particular interpretation for obvious reasons. If the 6th-century dating is indeed credible, there is surely an independent scholarly source that could verify it.

By the way, I just noticed that the website you cited ([2]) is not the official cathedral website and actually seems to be a tour operator. The subpage you linked ([3]) even seems to reuse some Wikimedia material, so it's not a reliable source anyways. Incidentally, there's also a source already cited inline in that part of the lead ([4]) which is likewise a tour company rather than the cathedral website; it doesn't add anything not said by the other cited sources so it should be removed. It seems there's a bunch of websites with very similar URLs that are ultimately commercial sites, so we should be mindful of this in future edits. R Prazeres (talk) 21:09, 15 January 2023 (UTC) R Prazeres (talk) 21:09, 15 January 2023 (UTC)

You are right, it was not the official page. My apologies. I have searched the official page. Its this:

It offers a fairly detailed timeline. It affirms the existence of the Basilica of San Vicente in the 6th century in the place of the mosque: "Lampadio (+549), Agapio (before 589-591) and Eleuterio (591- after 597) were the Bishops who followed each other in this role in Cordoba during the second half of the 6th century, during the chronological period which coincides with the dating of the remains of the basilica site of San Vicente."

Honestly, to ignore this is to miss one side of the coin. Venezia Friulano (talk) 21:35, 15 January 2023 (UTC)

I have also investigated the vision of other scholars who coincide with the official website:

• Ann Christys (2017). "The meaning of topography in Umayyad Cordoba". In Anne E. Lester (ed.). Cities, Texts and Social Networks, 400–1500. Routledge. It is a commonplace of the history of Córdoba that in their early years in the city, the Muslims shared with the Christians the church of S. Vicente, until ʿAbd al-Raḥmān I bought the Christians out and used the site to build the Great Mosque .

• Guide, Aitana (July 1, 2014). The Muslim Struggle for Civil Rights in Spain, 1985–2010: Promoting Democracy Through Islamic Engagement. Sussex Academic Press. p. 137. ISBN 9781845195816. It was originally a small temple of Christian Visigoth origin.

• Armstrong, Ian (2013). Spain and Portugal. Avalon Travel Publishing. ISBN 9781612370316. On this site originally stood the Visigoths' Christian Church of San Vicente, but when the Moors came to town in 758 CE they knocked it down and built a mosque in its place.

As you can see, there are scholars, even relatively recent ones, who support the existence of a Visigoth Basilica prior to the Mosque. Using this ("this narrative has been questioned by scholars") in the Lead suggests a generalized questioning of the existence of the basilica by scholars. It is much more reasonable to specify that there are scholars who share the thesis of the existence of the basilica while others do not. A Lead, although summarized, must be clear and show both sides, not just one. Venezia Friulano (talk) 22:13, 15 January 2023 (UTC)

I will add that the supposed basilica was from the 6th century, affirmed by the official website and said scholars of the traditional thesis. And to clarify, and without disturbing the Lead, I will add that the historicity of the existence on the site of a Visigothic basilica prior to the mosque doesnt have a consensus among scholars. As evidenced by the sources. Venezia Friulano (talk) 22:35, 15 January 2023 (UTC)

One of the sources you just cited above (Armstrong) is again a travel guide, not an academic source, and the first source you cited (Christys) goes on to repeat, literally right after the quote you provided, the same things that earlier research pointed out when challenging the traditional story, so it's actually more support for the current framing, not against it. This is textbook POV pushing. Simply going out and collecting any sources that vaguely repeats the traditional account is not presenting "both sides". Myself and other editors have taken a fair amount of care to precisely cite and describe the viewpoints of high-quality academic sources, specifically archeologists and historians directly evaluating the evidence on this issue, summarizing and their varying conclusions, arguments, and opposing criticisms. I expect further edits to maintain or improve on that standard, not dilute it. This issue has been covered enough as is. And please do not repeat your previous edits (or a variation of them) unless you get consensus here first. R Prazeres (talk) 22:40, 15 January 2023 (UTC)

I have presented you the official page of the Mosque-Cathedral of Cordoba with the approval of UNESCO and three perfectly valid sources, which, moreover, have even been in the body of the article for years from what I have just seen. It is evident that there is no consensus among scholars on the subject, and this should be clearly stated.Venezia Friulano (talk) 22:47, 15 January 2023 (UTC)

Do not delete official sources nor seek to stagnate the issue in a status quo. The official website of the article is not POV pushing. Present sources and seek compromise. Venezia Friulano (talk) 22:51, 15 January 2023 (UTC)

That's not Wikipedia works. It's not up to the rest of us to prove you wrong, it's up to you to solicit consensus for your edits. You are currently engaged in edit-warring and you continue to ignore all the reasons given above by myself and other editors for holding back your simultaneous changes to the lead and the infobox. I will give you a chance to revert the edits yourself. I've placed another standard warning on your user talk page, so there's no further excuse. If you do this again, the next step is to report you to the administrators' noticeboard, which could get you blocked from editing. R Prazeres (talk) 23:00, 15 January 2023 (UTC)

I have reverted my edits as an act of good faith. However, I urge you to be reasonable and find a logical compromise for both of us. And please, stop accusing me of POV pushing when my source is literally the official page of the Mosque-Cathedral of Córdoba and the other three are very veteran sources present in the body of the article for a long time. Everything I have added to the Lead is information collected of the body of the article. Showing only one version in the Lead is not representative of what currently exists in the article. You have also incurred in an Edit War, dont ignore that information either. Your inflammatory language only reduces the assumption of good faith and decrease your neutrality. Venezia Friulano (talk) 23:06, 15 January 2023 (UTC)

I've been very generous with my time in explaining to you the issues, which other editors initially echoed above, not just me. Consensus does not mean insisting that an article is not neutral until it's edited in a way that satisfies you; that attitude is exactly what POV-pushing entails. You went as far as to misrepresent sources and dipped in and out of edit-warring, which are serious issues, and then followed up by trolling me on my user talk page over the policy-based warnings I was giving you. This behavior breeds frustration, not compromise.

Now, leaving all that aside, if you actually care mainly about making sure that readers understand there's a variety of theories on what came before the mosque, then that's fine, but that's not what your edits were about. If you want a suggestion along those lines, then the current statement in the lead can be extended simply with a short detail like this (emphasis on proposed addition): "According to traditional accounts, a Visigothic church, the Catholic Christian Basilica of Saint Vincent of Saragossa, originally stood on the site of the current Mosque-Cathedral, although the historicity of this narrative has been questioned by scholars, who have argued for varying interpretations of the archeological evidence." A few of the existing citations could be added here if needed. R Prazeres (talk) 00:00, 16 January 2023 (UTC)

- Generous? The talk is for debate. Don't be condescending or presumptuous, you are not Midas, Nero nor any authority here.

- Echoed above? Are you referring to the first user who only alludes to the infobox, or the second who, almost like a cheer-leader, just says "Well said" as the only contribution to the subject?

- Your Edit War warning sure is "trolling" here, especially with phrases like giving me the "chance to revert my edits". Which by the way you did anyway despite having reverted, twice, my edits to avoid your emotional upset.

- If you bothered to read the body of the article carefully, you would see that everything added by me in the Lead is not my opinion, it is the content extracted from the article. The Lead must be a clear summary of the article, you know it perfectly.

- "although the historicity of this narrative has been questioned by scholars". Again, which Scholars? Can you formulate a sentence without implying that all Scholars question it? Who are you trying to fool?

- I understand that you like Islamic culture, your whole profile revolves around that, you are even probably a Muslim, I don't know, but please, at least try to hide your bias better. You are disregarding the official website of the Mosque-Cathedral of Córdoba, established sources of the article and twisting in a kafkaesque way everything to prevent the reader from seeing that it could originally have been a basilica before a mosque, something that obviously bothers you as a fan of islamic architecture. You're basically reflecting, the POV pushing is all yours.

- You screwed up deleting another user's editions saying that "obviously" the Mosque-Cathedral of Córdoba didnt have Gothic and Baroque architecture. You have deleted official sources and sources of the article just to remove small clarifications that bother you personally because of your Islamic bias.

- I am not going to continue this talk or read to you anymore, it was never your intention to resolve anything. It was a flawed Talk from the beginning. Have a nice day, waste someone else's time. Venezia Friulano (talk) 00:55, 16 January 2023 (UTC)

References