Talk:Palestinian genocide accusation: Difference between revisions

It is not a genocide. Statistics show that the Palestinian population is growing constantly — Preceding unsigned comment added by SamiBuzaglo (talk • contribs)

More section than article

This reads like a section in a relevant article rather than its own article. The title isn't a term of art, but is being used as a target for links in other articles as though it is. It's referenced in a handful of documents with a divergent set of definitions [by which standard the list of genocides would be long indeed] and doesn't need its own entire section in the navbox. – SJ + 22:52, 12 October 2023 (UTC)

Proposed rename + merge

Proposed merge into Israel and apartheid, in a new section about allegations of genocide. The title should be something like the Ukrainian example linked in the last section. – SJ + 01:21, 13 October 2023 (UTC)

• I agree with a merge. Drmies (talk) 01:22, 13 October 2023 (UTC)
• I also agree with a merge. IshChasidecha (talk) 04:18, 13 October 2023 (UTC)

I agree with a merge.

The title is very one sided. YZM1987 (talk) 16:36, 13 October 2023 (UTC)

What would you propose renaming it? If you wish, you can create page entitled ‘Genocide against the Israelis’. I think that what you do not perhaps see is that this article is not objectively saying that the violence is genocide, but that some people think it is. The lede even says it is a view, not the certain truth. Scientelensia (talk) 16:39, 13 October 2023 (UTC)

Having an article with this title, and a redirect from an even more inappropriate title, promotes a phrase and concept into search results that mostly appears in highly polarized political propaganda. While there might indeed be more sources for a page on 'Genocide against the Israelis', considering what has passed for political speech in the past few decades, that is likewise not an appropriate title or concept for an encyclopedia article.

The proposal is to merge with an existing page, which both contains many paragraphs that were copied here (there's no reason to conflate apartheid with genocide), offers historical and semantic context, and has an established group of editors to provide feedback. I have made a quick summary + merge, including a few references for each in the merged section. Please be careful about giving undue weight to rare views. – SJ + 20:22, 13 October 2023 (UTC)

also agree with merge SamiBuzaglo (talk) 19:13, 13 October 2023 (UTC)

I also support the merge Yotamsahar (talk) 19:18, 13 October 2023 (UTC)

• Support merge, appears to be fringe and doesn't meet GNG on its own.

A b r v a g l ^(PingMe) 04:30, 13 October 2023 (UTC)

• Agree with merge. Also support renaming to something along the lines of "Accusations of Genocide in the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict", as the article talks about both directions, yet the title incorrectly refers to only one. omervk (talk) 16:03, 13 October 2023 (UTC)

  Then there can be two pages. The allegations against both sides of genocide are separate and should be treated as such. Scientelensia (talk) 09:41, 14 October 2023 (UTC)

I disagree:

• there have been other separate pages on genocides before.
• this article has a different subject

Scientelensia (talk) 12:04, 13 October 2023 (UTC)

There are other pages on alleged genocide. The severity and significance of this subject cannot be undermined, which is why we should not merge this article. To merge this subject is to dismiss it. Scientelensia (talk) 16:20, 13 October 2023 (UTC)

• Support merge. WP:FRINGE WP:POV as stands. Loksmythe (talk) 16:56, 13 October 2023 (UTC)
• Support merge. Zanahary (talk) 17:09, 13 October 2023 (UTC)
• Support merge, framing of article prevents WP:NPOV. Marokwitz (talk) 19:08, 13 October 2023 (UTC)

Alright, adding a better balance of views and merging into Israel and apartheid#Allegations of genocide. Please move discussion to the talk page there. – SJ + 20:00, 13 October 2023 (UTC)

Please see the discussion on that talk page. I find your actions deeply troubling and also simply wrong. Scientelensia (talk) 09:42, 14 October 2023 (UTC)

Misleading viewpoint, blatant tropes of New Antisemitism

The claim that Israel is committing genocide against the Palestinians is not only factually incorrect but is also deeply problematic and should be seen as demonization of the Jewish State in a larger attempt to delegitimize it. Genocide, as defined by international law, involves the deliberate and systematic extermination of a specific ethnic, religious, or racial group. Labeling Israel's actions in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict as genocide not only mischaracterizes the complex and highly sensitive situation but also unfairly vilifies the Israeli people as a whole. Such an accusation overlooks the broader context of the conflict, which is rooted in longstanding political, historical, and territorial disputes. Accusations of genocide not only undermine the genuine struggles of those who have suffered from real genocides (such as the Jewish people themselves) but can also be seen as a form of demonization against the Jewish state, invoking harmful stereotypes and perpetuating harmful biases. Constructive dialogue and a nuanced understanding of the conflict are crucial for any meaningful efforts towards peace and resolution. See more on New Antisemitism here. Untruthful and damaging claims that Israel is committing genocide should not remain on a site which is supposed to remain neutral and report objective truths. IshChasidecha (talk) 02:20, 13 October 2023 (UTC)

Your entire post reads like a blog post. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not a place where you post your personal opinions. We follow what the reliable sources say. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 06:29, 13 October 2023 (UTC)

This article never actually states that it is a genocide, just that a view of it being a genocide exists. Your post reads like a very biased post.

You must try and separate the fact that the Jews have suffered genocide before from the fact that they can commit it now, potentially.

Saying that Israel has committed genocide is not inherently anti-Semitic, as if Israel was not made up of Jews it still could commit a genocide. Scientelensia (talk) 12:07, 13 October 2023 (UTC)

Also, nobody is blaming the entire people of Israel for the crimes. Scientelensia (talk) 12:08, 13 October 2023 (UTC)

Anyone "could commit genocide." The same anyone "could murder Christian babies." But when thisdemonizing claim is so blatantly false, it's just a modern day blood libel. IshChasidecha (talk) 19:40, 13 October 2023 (UTC)

Again, nobody said the view is inherently true. Also, your opinion seems to be highly biased. Scientelensia (talk) 08:43, 14 October 2023 (UTC)

Not Genocide

This article is inaccurate, as it falsely claims that there was an attempt to annihilate the Palestinian people. In contrast, there is a documented intention in Hamas' covenant, which explicitly states its primary goal is the annihilation of Israel. Therefore, this article lacks a factual basis and appears to be blatant pro-Hamas propaganda.שלומית ליר (talk) _ שלומית ליר (talk) 16:41, 13 October 2023 (UTC)

The existence of a strong anti-Israel sentiment in Hamas's propaganda does not preclude Israel from trying to infringe upon the rights of Palestinian people. Both statements may be true as they are not mutually exclusive. Sincerely, Novo Tape (She/Her)^{My Talk Page} 16:43, 13 October 2023 (UTC)

There is a huge difference between rights infringement and genocide. 176.231.102.238 (talk) 16:47, 13 October 2023 (UTC)

The first sentence of the article is "Genocide against Palestinians is a characterization of the Israeli–Palestinian conflict which argues that Israel has carried out and/or is carrying out some kind of genocide against the Palestinian population, sometimes related to the view that Israel is a settler colonial state."

By doing this, the concept of genocide being committed is acknowledged but neither outright confirmed nor denied. The article merely states that some scholars, activists, and groups have dubbed various Israeli activities as genocide. Whether or not it is genocide or not, it is Wikipedia's goal to accurately and comprehensively cover the various opinions on the topic, hence the existence of this article. Sincerely, Novo Tape (She/Her)^{My Talk Page} 16:54, 13 October 2023 (UTC)

Deletion of Article

This article is clearly politically motivated and against Wikipedia conventions. I propose this article be deleted. Due to the circumstances of the publication of this article. It is very possible that it was written with the intention of influencing people's opinions on the war between Hamas and Israel. Homerethegreat (talk) 18:25, 13 October 2023 (UTC)

Agree. Highly lack of WP:NPOV, poorly sourced. In addition to the timing, seems like an ugly attempt to justify the terror attack and the Re'im music festival massacre. A shame that this piece of antisemitic propaganda is gonna probably stay here until a vote. Just shows how messed up and horrible is the bias in English Wikipedia. I'm not gonna be suprised if The Holocaust article or articles related to it are the next ones who are gonna be effected. Trying to rewrite history through Wikipedia. dov (talk) 19:19, 13 October 2023 (UTC)

You do realise that the creator of this article Buidhe, is in fact, one of Wikipedia's most prolific writers about the Holocaust and genocide generally? I really don't think this was a bad faith creation, maybe it wasn't the best idea, but "antisemitic", really? Hemiauchenia (talk) 23:45, 13 October 2023 (UTC)

Agreed. And people can add more info to the page, reducing any possible POV, rather than deleting it. Scientelensia (talk) 08:46, 14 October 2023 (UTC)

I think you'll find that it's the other way around, and the Re'im music festival massacre is being used in the ugly attempt to justify the litany of sins and war crimes that we now see unfolding in Gaza. Iskandar323 (talk) 09:18, 14 October 2023 (UTC)

100% agree. Is there any way to make the process move quicker of addressing this issue? IshChasidecha (talk) 19:42, 13 October 2023 (UTC)

See Talk:Israel_and_apartheid#Allegations of genocide – SJ + 20:08, 13 October 2023 (UTC)