Talk:Garage rock: Difference between revisions

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Noticed term "garage rock" beginning to be used for newer bands--how to respond?

I have been noticing lately that a lot of the kinds of modern bands that we were calling "garage punk" a few years ago (i.e. those doing an updated version of garage, not doing a "retro" revival) are now using the term "garage rock" to describe themselves (particularly in San Francisco), and I've noticed that some Wiki editors are now using "garage rock" to describe them in articles. So I'm trying to accommodate this development without changing the article's overall focus (on the 60s bands). Perhaps we could mention something in the Revivals section (and maybe a line somewhere in the heading)--using the reliable sources that are out there and doing it in such a way that does not confuse readers nor in any fundamental way alter the article's present orientation. No big change, but a slight adjustment. But, I thought I'd run it by everyone first, before I make any slight changes. Garagepunk66 (talk) 22:47, 7 August 2016 (UTC)

Split

I just wanted to point out that the readable prose size for this article is roughly 120 kilobytes. Because of the messy citation style, however, the article ends up being around 370,038 bytes. It would really benefit from {{sfn}} templates.--Ilovetopaint (talk) 13:06, 4 November 2016 (UTC)

DO NOT SPLIT: I am completely against splitting the article. Readers deserve to have the benefit of an article that fully and properly educates them on the topic. Having spin-offs will only lead to confusion. American garage rock is the centrifugal core through which all other national variants have to be connected, in order to be meaningful and helpful to the reader. By the way, there are plenty of other long articles at Wikipedia. This article just happens to be about a particularly large genre in terms of participants and recording--it is by far rock's largest genre in terms of the number of bands and records, so the article has to cover the form it in its true breadth. The kilobyte rule is in place because, when smartphones first came out a few years back there was a concern that long articles would not be able to properly load. Since then, smartphones have not only become more powerful, but now also sub-divide into different sections (i.e. do not appear on the same page). Let's keep the article in its full form rather than truncating it. The templates just inserted are unnecessary and unfounded. There is no synthesis--I've tried to be accurate. Yet, you say there is not enough central discussion--it is in the Milieu and Characteristics sections--they explain the overview in detail. I'll admit that I could reduce some of the citations in some of the statements. Nonetheless, this article has already gone through the rigorous process of review and is deemed to be of high quality. Garagepunk66 (talk) 16:50, 5 November 2016 (UTC)

Comment. While I am fully appreciative of the huge amount of valuable work that Garagepunk66 has put into this article over the years, I agree in principle that the article should be split. It is simply too long, and not easy to navigate. It would benefit from being split into smaller articles, without losing any of the well referenced text, and retaining a good structure. We need to approach any split with care, and it should not be on the lines initially suggested by Ilovetopaint. There needs to be a single overview article, which sets out the style's background and origins; a summary of the regional styles; and the later developments. Linked from that main overview article, there should be separate articles on the various regional garage rock scenes - perhaps regionally in the US, and some national and continent-wide articles. Ghmyrtle (talk) 16:53, 5 November 2016 (UTC)

• Comment – We can leave a couple paragraphs that summarize the major points of garage rock as a worldwide phenomenon. After split, it'll be easier to focus on the issue of self-sourcing examples, which is a huge one for the article, but particularly for these sections. They almost entirely consist of namedrops.--Ilovetopaint (talk) 17:04, 5 November 2016 (UTC)

Let's not jump too soon to assume that there will be a split. Rather than splitting the sections off into different articles (which would make them seem orphaned and incomplete), we could collapse them into fold-downs here. I think that would be a much better solution. We could start with a general discussion of each regional scene, followed by a collapse that goes into more detail. But, if that cannot be done, the let's just leave it in its present configuration, albeit with some improvements. I am beginning to see that there could have more general discussion of each regional scene (before discussing individual bands). I'm not opposed to removing some bands, but we should do that with a scalpel, not a sledgehammer. And, we do have a table of contents to help us navigate (but we could re-work the section titles if necessary). There was a similar discussion at the punk rock article a few years ago that resulted in no concensus to split--it is still in its full form. There are plenty of other long articles around here--many that are FA and GA (this one is GA). So, let's be careful in how we proceed. Garagepunk66 (talk) 17:29, 5 November 2016 (UTC)

If anyone has the time (I don't), it should be possible to work up an alternative structure in a sandbox. The core article should do more than merely "summarize the major points of garage rock as a worldwide phenomenon" - it needs to be an overview, to highlight the background and history (primarily in the US), link to regional articles (which should retain the mentions of notable individual bands), and probably also cover the later developments (post-1960s). I don't think "fold-downs" (if I understand them correctly) are a good answer. Ghmyrtle (talk) 17:33, 5 November 2016 (UTC)

I do think it needs international coverage--there is more to it than just the US, though the US is its core. For instance, the Australian thing was huge, and there were other national scenes as well. I am not in favor of chopping whole sections out, but rather, going in and trimming out some of the fat. I'll be the first to admit that there is some fat. First, we could reduce the amount of citations. Believe it or not, I am not against removing some of the bands and any excessive or extraneous detail. I have been thinking about nominating the article for FA, and I was expecting there to be some "tree-trimming" in that process. Actually, such a review might be helpful, because it could help us resolve some of these problems, and we could get some extra hands on the deck. But, I think we should proceed carefully. I cannot go along with any move to split, but we can trim, yes. Garagepunk66 (talk) 18:05, 5 November 2016 (UTC)

• Comment - I would agree a split needs to be strongly considered and organized. I think it would be best to have the main garage rock article include an overview similar to the one Ghmyrtle recommended with mention of key groups from the genre.. While I also thank and encourage Garagepunk's work on the article, it has become much too large for average readers to navigate. I recommend Ilovetopaint spearhead the project if he is interested since he possesses the most experience with music genre articles. I am willing to help with some regional scenes in North America, such as Texas and the West Coast when the time comes.TheGracefulSlick (talk) 18:08, 5 November 2016 (UTC)

A couple of months ago you told me that you were "blown away" by the article and how much you enjoyed reading it. You even called it "the best music genre article at Wikipedia". You said that in a Barnstar. [1] I cannot understand this at all. Why would you have more confidence in someone that knows very little about this topic. I'm not just frustrated with you, but everyone here. I feel that I am being given a vote of no confidence. This article that has been the backbone of my work here. Let's not truncate it. Garagepunk66 (talk) 18:23, 5 November 2016 (UTC)

Garagepunk66 I did enjoy reading it. I gave you praise because it was vastly improved and you needed encouragement since you felt no one appreciated the work. However, it has indeed become too large for itself and needs to be divided (with all info intact) in order to fix some of the issues that still persist with this subject. Ilovetopaint has the knowledge to properly format the article's split; look at his track record.TheGracefulSlick (talk) 18:30, 5 November 2016 (UTC)

I'm sorry, he has no knowledge or care about this topic. So, you say now that I needed encouragement, but then you said it was the best genre article. I actually didn't think so--I thought it still needed some improvements, but you said you thought so. If your opinion was not that high of my work then, then you never should have led me to think it was. We need to have these sections here. I will not accept a split. I had the article peer reviewed a few months ago and no one said any of these things. I spoke with the FAC Coordinator, and though while she pointed out some things that needed to be improved, she did not say the article should be split. This is disconcerting. Garagepunk66 (talk) 18:46, 5 November 2016 (UTC)

But Garagepunk66 if consensus states a split is in order, you will need to accept it. So far three users have approved it. I would think Ilovetopaint cares considerably about the topic; otherwise, he would say nothing to improve it (the split). Please take a step back and look at the bigger picture, thanks. When a split occurs, I will dedicate my efforts to the Texas and West Coast scenes as I mentioned.TheGracefulSlick (talk) 19:05, 5 November 2016 (UTC)

There is no such consensus at this time. Garagepunk66 (talk) 19:09, 5 November 2016 (UTC)

• Agree for a split: I come, not having edited any on this article (probably, maybe), but bearing three WikiProject music related userboxes and thousands of edits to modern music articles. I am even involved in the most convoluted musician talk page controversy we have, it seems :Laura Branigan (who is not still living, but won't lie down). I do not agree with the comment: he has no knowledge or care about this topic as a valid comment to shut down this undertaking. Ilovetopaint seems to have a stellar reputation and steady good article creation of related subjects. I am not a cat, have poor knowledge of physics nor have travelled in a time machine, but I dare to work on those articles with pride. (I do play drums...) Garagepunk66s I will not accept a split, and This article that has been the backbone of my work here, are demonstrative article ownership and thusly if no better rationale can be offered should be discounted. This article is too long, too complex, TLDR and needs to be split. The citations alone would break my scroll key. Please. There are editors willing to take on the task.. Fylbecatulous talk 19:51, 5 November 2016 (UTC)

I don't claim to own the article, nor ever have. I just admitted that we need to reduce the captions, so your scroll key should end up just fine. I'm want to make sure that it does not get diminished in such a way that it looses necessary information. Though, I have not at this point seen a good enough solution to make me change my mind, I could consider the idea of a split if I am confident that the article can retain its scope and breadth and cover all of the necessary topic areas--the international areas are import for a good briefing. But in a hypothetical split situation that I could consider endorsing, the article could keep all or at least most of its current sections, but many of them would be shortened to general summaries that could be linked to new articles conveying more specific information about bands and local scenes. So, each region and nationality have a still have a place here, but a one or tow paragraph summary, and we be could link it to a more specific article. But, let's till keep the sections. I do not own this article, but I that I have demonstrated enough hard work and dedication to have some input here and to be part process of changing it. If you're looking for someone to do the heavy lifting, you've got a pair of willing hands right here. Garagepunk66 (talk) 22:50, 5 November 2016 (UTC)