Talk:2019 World Rally Championship: Difference between revisions

Request for comment on new manufacturers table

There is a clear consensus that the "FIA World Rally Championship for Manufacturers" table should not include the car number.

Cunard (talk) 05:44, 27 January 2019 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Should the "FIA World Rally Championship for Manufacturers" table add car number? -- Unnamelessness (talk) 05:15, 23 December 2018 (UTC)

• Comment — Per previous entry, No. Because Manufacturers' standing is the standing that speifically counts the manufacturers' points, not drivers. This table should completely concentrate on how each manufacturer scores points, which is the best two cars score points regardless of which car. -- Unnamelessness (talk) 05:24, 23 December 2018 (UTC)
• Comment: per previous discussion, yes. Each manufacturer has structured their team differently (Citroën only has two cars, M-Sport Ford has two cars with a third on a round-by-round basis, Toyota has three full-time cars and Hyundai has three cars shares across four crews) and this affects how they can score points. Adding the numbers column allows for additional sorting within each manufacturer to show the reader how points were scored from round to round. Furthermore, ever since the proposed format was introduced to Formula 1 articles, it has been subject to ongoing dispute here is a lit of every instance I have so far found:
  1. WCC RET issue
  2. Semi-protected edit request on 18 October 2018
  3. WCC table is very badly broken
  4. Haas points in article wrong for USA.
  5. Constructor Standings: Ferrari mix-up
  6. World Constructors' Championship standings
  7. Constructors' Standings revisited

Don't just take it from me that this is an issue, here is what @Zwerg Nase (sorry, I have to mention you since I am quoting you directly) had to say in one of those discussions:

"I hate to bring this debate up again but the complaints are piling up. Readers clearly do not understand the way the Constructors' Table is formatted at the moment."

Others have repeatedly voiced concerns about the proposal; I would tag them too, but do not want to be canvassing. The proposal has a documented history of causing problems elsewhere (the only reason those changes have not been reverted is because some editors refuse to acknowledge that it is an issue) and given that it removes detail of how teams scored points (which is what the matrix is designed to show), it is clearly a bad choice to incorporate here. 1.144.111.230 (talk) 07:09, 23 December 2018 (UTC)

It has been only a year since the new table introduced in F1, it is very reasonable that some editors can't understand. People need time to read and get used to it just like a video game's bugs require time to fix. Btw, this is WRC, not F1. -- Unnamelessness (talk) 13:35, 23 December 2018 (UTC)

Don't pay too much attention too them. They were never supporting of the proposed change of the F1 table in the first place. And even though it was implented with clear consenus they have since tried everything at their might to reverse the changes. What they say here about the complaints is exaggerated and wrong. The people DO understand the tables, they just don't all agree with the presentation. But nearly none of them keep complaining after a response to their talk page post. Moreover, we haven't had any complaint for nearly two months.Tvx1 10:57, 23 December 2018 (UTC)

"It has been only a year since the new table introduced in F1, it is very reasonable that some editors can't understand. People need time to read and get used to it just like a video game's bugs require time to fix. Btw, this is WRC, not F1."

And yet, other widespread changes were introduced without a single complaint. They did not need a year for people to adapt to them. I suspect the problem on the F1 pages is far more extensive than we believe as the results matrices are in templates, not the article. This change was made to keep the size of the articles down and reduce vandalism, and has probably prevented people from restoring the original format because they do not know how to access the templates.

More to the point, I have documented a year's worth of problems that this change has caused. You yourself cited the F1 articles as a model for the change, so you can hardly argue that F1 has no bearing on the article now. What cause do you have to believe that the problems faced on the F1 articles will not be experienced here?

"Don't pay too much attention too them."

Or do pay attention to me. I've been editing WRC pages since 2012. I can't find the last time Tvx1 made a meaningful contribution to a WRC page. If this change goes ahead and my prediction of disruption comes true, will he be the one fixing matrices and explaining the format on the talk page? I don't think so. Would he even be aware of this discussion if you hadn't tagged him?

"What they say here about the complaints is exaggerated and wrong."

I just provided evidence of seven attempts to change the matrices and I was not even looking too hard. How is that an exaggeration?

"The people DO understand the tables, they just don't all agree with the presentation."

How about I quote some of the discussions that I linked to?

"I hate to bring this debate up again but the complaints are piling up. Readers clearly do not understand the way the Constructors' Table is formatted at the moment."

"I am just wondering if there was a change in the formatting policy or if the most recent seasons need to be brought in line with the prior way of doing things."

"The results for the German GP for the Ferrari boys have been erroneously switched."

"Pretty much every row in the WCC table is completely wrong."

These do not sound like the words of people who understand the changes. The one constant in these discussions is you telling people there is no problem.

"Moreover, we haven't had any complaint for nearly two months."

For a change that you introduced a year ago. So you've gone ten months dealing with the problem, then. That's hardly any better given that you're talking about a change to a table that people should immediately understand. 1.144.111.54 (talk) 11:14, 23 December 2018 (UTC)

A proper discussion with a RFC was held during the summer to evaluate whether the change should be made and no consensus was achieved to do so. As for your "template theory". The first four season article using the new system don't use templates and there was next to no editing on their constructors' standings. Your theory thus just doesn't hold water. You've had more than your say and your concerns were more than heard. It's way past the time to drop the stick now and stop acting so frustrated.Tvx1 12:45, 23 December 2018 (UTC)

Oh, I've given up trying to change things there. But I'll be damned if I just roll over and let you introduce a bad change to another article. You have consistently failed to address any of the concerns raised here; in which parallel universe is spending ten months explaining the format of a table good editing practice? And what gives you the right to burden an article with a problematic format when your contributions show that you do not actually contribute anything to that article and will likely leave it to others to clean up the mess? As far as I am concerned, if you're not willing to put in the work to explain your changes, then your words count for nothing in this discussion. And if the changes go ahead and you don't contribute to the ongoing maintenance, then that's grounds for restoring the original format. 1.144.108.25 (talk) 19:04, 23 December 2018 (UTC)

Great, the "you don't contribute enough" nonsense again. This becomes more pathetic by the minute. What you write here is a clear case of a claim of ownership. You seem to believe that you the authority to set out conditions for changes and on other people's rights to edit a set of articles. You're really making a mockery out of yourself. Judging by this entire discussion, you appear to be literally the only one to see the proposal as a "bad change". And I'm not even introducing it. I didn't propose anything. I was pinged for my opinion and I gave it. That's how community works and after all those years it's about time you'd accept that.Tvx1 11:06, 24 December 2018 (UTC)

You're endorsing a change that editors have reason to believe may cause problems. If those problems come to pass, then you should at least take the time to fix it. But if you're not willing, why are you participating in the discussion? What you're saying is that you believe in the proposal, just not enough to see it through. Your words mean nothing if you aren't willing to resolve the issues that arise from it. That's how a community works: if you endorse a change, then you're expected to follow through. Don't make work for others and expect them to be thankful for it because the article is now "better". I have very low hopes for this because in the F1 articles, you're the only one who refuses to believe that seven complaints in ten months is indicative of a problem. That does not bode well for this article. You're happy to dictate how the article should be structured, but you leave it to everyone else to implement and maintain the changes, refuse to acknowledge the growing chorus of people saying "this is a problem", and you have the nerve to accuse me of breakng WP:OWN? I don't think so. Of the two of us, I'm the only one interested in the long-term shape of the article because I'm the only one who works on it. 1.144.107.255 (talk) 01:20, 25 December 2018 (UTC)

And you're trying to discredit other editors' opinions by imposing irrelevant conditions. Others have already explained before that the quantity of one's edits is irrelevant. Reader opinion is just as valuable as editor opinion. Moreover, the amount of work would not be negatively affected by this proposal. Quite on the contrary, the amount of updatable content would be reduced. And your accusations are just ludicrous. I have never stated any intention no to want to see this through. And I'm pretty certain the original proposer and the other supporters are more than willing to commit to the change long term. You are just inventing problems that don't exist.Tvx1 00:07, 30 December 2018 (UTC)

• Comment — Per previous entry, No. The number system has changed. They no are no longer related to the manufacturers. There is no point anymore in including them.Tvx1 12:40, 23 December 2018 (UTC)

• Comment I lean towards no (but would be okay with numbers also, if there would not be too many drivers in one team), but I kind of still miss having the number of points next to position. wrc.com has both of them, while ewrc-results.com lists only points. Especially for new readers, number of points is the thing they would like to know, calculating them from position may be too complicated. In a driver/team article, position in the other hand is better choice. For anon/prisonermonkey: we can, and probably should add a sentence to explain the table. Pelmeen10 (talk) 17:32, 23 December 2018 (UTC)

• Comment: if you have to explain the format of the table in the article, it's a bad format. 1.144.108.25 (talk) 19:04, 23 December 2018 (UTC)

• Comment: according to this edit, the numbers are so important that we can afford to include them in the entry table before we get an official entry list or before we know all of them. However, the same person is arguing that they are so unimportant that they can be cut from the manufacturers' results matrix lest they threaten to confuse the reader as to the purpose of the table. I don't understand this logic at all. 1.144.108.197 (talk) 02:40, 24 December 2018 (UTC)

OMG, are they the same concept? Removing the numbers from the manufacturer table equals they are not important? I say once again: The manufacturer table is the table that SPECIFICLY counts points for each manufacturer, not for each driver. -- Unnamelessness (talk) 07:10, 24 December 2018 (UTC)

And organising the matrix to include the car number does not fundamentally change that. Can you please cite a single instance of someone who has not understood or misinterpreted a results matrix because of that column? Because I can cite seven examples of people who have been confused by a matrix without it. 1.144.108.197 (talk) 08:10, 24 December 2018 (UTC)

If all five drivers of Citroën selects their own number in 2018, with the old table, it would be like:

Pos.	Manufacturer	No.	MON	SWE	MEX	FRA	ARG	POR	ITA	FIN	DEU	TUR	GBR	CAT	AUS	Points
4	Citroën Total Abu Dhabi WRT	A	4	Ret	3	7	6	Ret	WD							237
		B			5	8								1
		C		5				6	5	2	Ret	8	7		3
		D	7	2			Ret	5	6	7	7	Ret	4	8	7
		E					8			NC		7		NC
Pos.	Manufacturer	No.	MON	SWE	MEX	FRA	ARG	POR	ITA	FIN	DEU	TUR	GBR	CAT	AUS	Points

Compared with previous tables，you call this "organising the matrix to include the car number does not fundamentally change that"? Are you serious?

And don't cite any examples because none of them read it carefully. I firmly believe that anyone who read the table with attention can easily understand how the entire table works. -- Unnamelessness (talk) 09:14, 24 December 2018 (UTC)

I see no problem with that. It still shows everything that it's supposed to show and, as you put it, "anyone who reads the table with attention can easily understand how the entire table works".

Citroën's 2017 campaign is also a very poor choice to cite as an example considering that Meeke was fired mid-season. If you did it for Toyota or M-Sport, the results would be far less dramatic. It's the same as citing Toro Rosso's 2017 carousel of drivers as the reason for changing the F1 matrices—you just don't like all of the white spaces. 1.144.108.197 (talk) 09:30, 24 December 2018 (UTC)

Regulation has changed. Under new regulation, old table doesn't fit and we need a new one. That's the reason why I started this discussion, not beacuse of your so-called "I don't like it". I've alreday put my point serveal times here, and everytime you just don't accept it beacuse of the so-called "confusion" in F1 — you just refuse to get over it.

And there is an advice for you — Why don't you create another new account? Because now you look like a puppy editor. -- Unnamelessness (talk) 10:34, 24 December 2018 (UTC)

• Comment — Per previous entry, no. As pointed out, numbers are not linked to manufacturer anymore. M-Sport will also have multiple drivers which will then have its own number and would make the table worse. Kovpastish (talk) 08:47, 24 December 2018 (UTC)

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The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Entry table

If you want to revert the table format, you need a new consensus. 1.129.105.55 (talk) 12:17, 24 January 2019 (UTC)

There is no consensus in Wikipedia talk:WikiProject World Rally. Read it over! Unnamelessness proposes the table. Kovpastish is neutral and. Tvx1 is against. This is not consensus. The problem is, that in 2018 and 2017 seasons You add your key and add manufacturer entries in the table, but You DO not add the private entries (Valeriy Gorban MINI), but in 2019 You are putting even these private entries such as Grönholm's GRX Team, Janne Tuohino private entry etc in the same table with the manufacturers! If now Gorban with his MINI will take part of some rally, MINI will be in the same table with official manufacturers.

Table as it is works well. Media and people are interested manufacturers drivers. All media writes is about which team hired which driver. So it is logical to have manufacturers entries in the main table and private entries in the other table! --Klõps (talk) 20:06, 24 January 2019 (UTC)

First of all, you need to stop edit-warring. Secondly, you need a consensus.

"Unnamelessness proposes the table. Kovpastish is neutral and. Tvx1 is against."

And I supported it. With no significant opposition at the time and no opposition since it was introduced, edit-consensus applies.

"in 2019 You are putting even these private entries such as Grönholm's GRX Team, Janne Tuohino private entry etc in the same table with the manufacturers!"

And clearly distinguishing between which entries are eligible for manufacturer points and which are not.

"Table as it is works well."

Except that it's full of redundant markup used to build the second table, the content of which never appears anywhere else in the article.

"If now Gorban with his MINI will take part of some rally, MINI will be in the same table with official manufacturers."

Not at all. There is nothing in the table that says "this is the manufacturer table". If Gorban enters a Mini, it will be clear to the reader that he is not competing for manufacturer points. If you took ten seconds to actually read the table, you would see that quite clearly. But instead, you revert the article on sight, then come in here and make these broad statements that show you don't understand what you're reverting. 1.129.107.50 (talk) 20:34, 24 January 2019 (UTC)

I think it is quite opportunistic to claim an edit-consensus based on edits of a couple of days old that change a system the existed uncontested for years. Moreover, your assertion here comes over as if you think your support of the proposal outweighs any other person's opinion. As it stands now, the WT:Rally discussion does not demonstrate a consensus in favor of the change. Additionally, as a person who claims to have a form of colorblindness, you should know that relying on colored shading of cells as sole means of conveying information is a very, very bad thing do.Tvx1 00:56, 25 January 2019 (UTC)

"I think it is quite opportunistic to claim an edit-consensus based on edits of a couple of days old that change a system the existed uncontested for years."

I have been lobbying for a single-table format for years and you know it because you have always opposed it.

"As it stands now, the WT:Rallydiscussion does not demonstrate a consensus in favor of the change."

It does not demonstrate a consensus opposed to the change, either. Indeed, some of the people who were non-committal have contributed to the single-table format instead of reverting it.

"Additionally, as a person who claims to have a form of colorblindness, you should know that relying on colored shading of cells as sole means of conveying information is a very, very bad thing do."

While I have a form of colourblindness, I also understand how colourblindness works. The shading presents no problem; it is combinations of colours that are a problem. Red alone is fine; red and green presents difficulties. You should know this because I have explained it to you in the past. The use of flagicons throughout an article is more problematic than this system. 1.129.107.201 (talk) 01:48, 25 January 2019 (UTC)

"Moreover, your assertion here comes over as if you think your support of the proposal outweighs any other person's opinion."

Not at all. I'm simply pointing out that I participated in the discussion, which Klops was remiss in doing; based on his comment, a reader could be mistaken that only three editors took part. 1.129.107.106 (talk) 10:38, 25 January 2019 (UTC)

Hold Your Horses!

1. Create an account. You are on a dynamic IP. We can't follow you and see what you have said before.

2. There is no consensus. You can't claim edit consensus for an edit on system that has been used for years over a number of articles on edit that has been made few days ago. In the discussion at WRC project Someone in a lengthy discussion made a suggestion. One user was neutral one was against. You (IP) did not give your opinion at all! For consensus the question must be clear and it must have some support.

3. Your edits are inconsistent. In 2018 season You only moved Sordo and Serderidis to the entries eligible to score manufacturer points table adding the key and colour background note that they after all aren't eligible. That's why I reverted them back to before Your edits! But in 2019 You already want to add all the drivers to one table which has not been discussed at all!

4. You are edit warring. I will restore the table. Please, if you want to change anything make a clear proposal in the talk before! --Klõps (talk) 11:10, 25 January 2019 (UTC)

"There is no consensus."

There was no opposition. Editors do not need to establish a consensus in advance of making a change.

"You are edit warring. I will restore the table."

That's the very definition of edit-warring.

It is quite clear from some of your comments that you don't even understand what you're reverting given that you have repeatedly incorrectly described what the table is doing.

"But in 2019 You already want to add all the drivers to one table which has not been discussed at all!"

It was discussed at the WikiProject, but again, you didn't read the discussion. An example of what a colour-coded table would look like was put forward, but you thought it was just for non-manufacturer entries put forward by manufacturer teams.

"Please, if you want to change anything make a clear proposal in the talk before!"

Here's one: you should stop editing the article. It's clear you either don't understand what is being discussed, or you are not trying to and are simply revertimg edits you don't like on sight. 1.129.107.106 (talk) 12:30, 25 January 2019 (UTC)

I'm afraid I am going to be enabling you with this, but here is an outline of what the table is: the table should be for all RC1 entries—all World Rally Cars, both pre- and post-2017 designs. Cars that are eligible to score manufacturer points have a white background in the rounds column; cars that are ineligible have a shaded red background.

This change was put forward because there was no value in having two tables. The markup required to create a second table is extensive and redundant and the content of the table is rarely brought up again elsewhere in the article.

More importantly, the split table format is a bad hangover from years like 2006 when there were complex rules regarding entry eligibility. Those complex rules no longer apply, so there is no need for a split table format.

One table for all RC1 entries suits the needs of the article. If there is a distinction that needs to be made, such as manufacturer points eligibility, it can be done within that table. A second table for the purposes of making that distinction is totally unnecessary. 1.129.107.106 (talk) 12:48, 25 January 2019 (UTC)

Something that happened in the discussion with minimal reaction from other editors is not consensus. Edits that You are making were not discussed. The discussion was about Sordos situation (at one rally he was entered by Hyundai as non manufacturer driver). No one told that same would be done with private entries (Tuohino, Miele, GRX Team). You are edit warring to make things the way You wish. I have been restoring the edit consensus that has been with the tables for years. The tables have been so for Years. So If You wish to change something start a new thread and make short and clear post about what you wish to change. Now You are making different changes on different seasons. --Klõps (talk) 14:16, 25 January 2019 (UTC)

Edit consensus restored. Do not change it without discussion. --Klõps (talk) 14:17, 25 January 2019 (UTC)

Let's find a solution Here. Klõps (talk) 14:59, 25 January 2019 (UTC)

"Something that happened in the discussion with minimal reaction from other editors is not consensus."

Actually, it is: "Any edit that is not disputed or reverted by another editor can be assumed to have consensus."

"The tables have been so for Years."

That's not an argument. This whole thing stinks of you complaining that a discussion was had without you. 1.144.105.6 (talk) 19:46, 25 January 2019 (UTC)

Any edit that is not disputed or reverted... as it is Your edits were reverted and disputed. They are also not the consensus. That's what I have been trying to tell You! Instead of attacking me try to focus discussing what You wish to change. And do create an account. Your dynamic IP makes it hard follow, You do edit a lot. --Klõps (talk) 21:16, 25 January 2019 (UTC)

The edits have been disputed and reverted by two editors now, so you cannot cling to editconsensus anymore. It's certainly not a justification for the edit-warring you engaged in. For the record, Klöps, this IP has an account. It's Prisonermonkeys and they can no longer access that account.Tvx1 18:19, 26 January 2019 (UTC)

User:Klõps - User:Tvx1 is right. They have an account. If they have lost their password, they should create a new account. User:Prisonermonkeys - Create and declare a new account. Robert McClenon (talk) 04:26, 7 February 2019 (UTC)

Gentlemen drivers in World Rally Cars?

Now, I'm aware that, in the entry list column, we have all drivers who are using World Rally Cars in there, and that does make sense, because it is the highest class of rally cars in the World Rally Championship. One thing I'm beginning to understand less and less is why we include gentlemen rallyists in this table, who are using previous-generation World Rally Cars. These guys do not have seeded priority in the entry lists, and they're not really notable. Look at these four French drivers from Tour de Corse's entry list. They aren't really recognized as important in any case, but they're still being put there because they use a WRC-labelled car. I'm not saying pre-2017 World Rally Cars shouldn't be present in the entry list, I'm just wondering why these entrants who aren't acknowledged as important are still being included.

They are still WRC entries. This is the article on the WRC, so we list all the WRC entries. All forms of motorsports have lesser important or remarkable entries, but that doesn't mean we ignore them. All of them are eligible to score points and one of them, Janne Tuohino, actually did do so. That makes them more than important enough to be listed.Tvx1 11:12, 25 April 2019 (UTC)

Manufacturers Table Third Row

Should the third rows in the manufacturers' championship table for entrants that have run three cars at an event be removed?

I think they should. The rules state that only two results for the manufacturers' championship can be scored per rally. So I think we should only list those results that were actually credited for that championship. It is the championship result table after all. If one wants to find out what the individual entrants did, we have the drivers' and co-drivers' championships tables for that. The row of mostly NC's in the manufacturers' championship table is just confusing.Tvx1 10:59, 26 April 2019 (UTC)

So am I. Per the rule says two best cars score points for manufacturers. -- Unnamelessness (talk) 08:33, 29 April 2019 (UTC)

Oh, look. This again.

No, they should not be removed. Those crews are eligible to score WCM points when a rally begins. They are ineligible to score points when the rally ends. To remove the third row implies that they were never eligible to score points, which is patently untrue.

We used to have an additional column in the table that assigned results to individual entries. But then some idiot decided that column was unnecessary and rearranged the table based on Formula 1 results. Mclarenfan17 (talk) 12:30, 21 May 2019 (UTC)

As has been explained to you many times, the claim that removing the third row implies they were never eligible to score points is what is actually untrue. The entry lists shows them black and white as eligible to score manufacturer's points and the absence of the third row in the results table doesn't change that in any way. Similarly the claim that results were assigned to individual entries is also wrong. They were assigned to numbers and these were actually frequently used by different crews throughout the season. And the decision to remove said column was a community decision achieved through a discussion which is still visible on this talk page. As it stands, there is only one visitor of these articles that wants this third row: you. Wikipedia however operates on community decisions.Tvx1 17:24, 21 May 2019 (UTC)

When the number column was removed, editors insisted that it was more important for the matrix to show how a team's championship result was achieved rather than who contributed what and when. If that is the case, then you cannot overlook the fact that teams have different approaches: Citroën only have two cars, whereas Hyundai and Toyota enter three full-time and Ford has two full-time entries and one part-time. Thus, how they go about achieving their results is fundamentally different and should be reflected in the matrix.

Furthermore, in the late 1990s and early 2000s, teams could enter three cars, but only two could score points. The difference was that they had to nominate who scored points in advance of the start, whereas here it is only decided at the end. Having the same appearance between two matrices thus misrepresents the championship.

And if the row of NCs is as confusing as you claim it to be, why haven't we had problems with people constantly removing it since it was introduced in 2017? Or is this another case of you being able to psychically tell what readers are thinking? Mclarenfan17 (talk) 20:19, 21 May 2019 (UTC)

The rule clearly points out that the two best cars score points for manufacturers, which means the third-best car contributes nothing to the manufacturers' championship. Per the FIA regulation, the points of each manufacturer is made up of the best car and the second-best car and has nothing to do with the third best car. That's how a team's championship result was achieved. This is also why the official website lists the manufacturers' championship in the form of "A+B", instead of "A+B(+0)". -- Unnamelessness (talk) 05:43, 22 May 2019 (UTC)

"which means the third-best car contributes nothing to the manufacturers' championship"

There's a big difference between contributing nothing and recording a result that did not contribute. That's what "NC" means: that the crew recorded a result, but that result was not taken into consideration due to the rules. It does not mean that they did nothing. Mclarenfan17 (talk) 08:42, 22 May 2019 (UTC)

No quite the opposite, they do no achieve a result. They finish the rally, but do not record a result for it in the WMC. If a third car from any manufacturer finishes ahead of one of the first two cars of another manufacturer, that third car is disregarded completely and its WCM result is passed on to the next WCM eligible car. The difference you speak of is minimal and dedicating a whole row to it is just undue. And the other potential implications from removing this row are all based on the same mistaken belief that WMC table is the only thing that tells our readers how these championships devolved. That is wrong. The difference on how the manufacturers' approached things is reflected in the combination of entry lists, season reports and results tables these articles include. These other parts were different in the other years you mention and so the readers where also clearly able to see the difference. You're just massively overrating how this lone table could be interpreted. The combination of entry lists, prose AND the results tables makes it abundantly clear that some manufacturers entered three cars for the rallies. The absence of a third row in one results table does not change that at all. A championship's results table is mean to record the results credited to that championship, it should not record entries.Tvx1 11:10, 22 May 2019 (UTC)

"They finish the rally, but do not record a result for it in the WMC."

Which is why they are listed as "Not Classified". Omitting them entirely suggests they were never there to begin with.

"The difference on how the manufacturers' approached things is reflected in the combination of entry lists, season reports and results tables these articles include."

The reader should not need to synthesise information from various parts of the article just to understand it.

"A championship's results table is mean to record the results credited to that championship, it should not record entries."

Since you didn't bother to address these points the first time, I'll repeat them here:

First, the teams have markedly different approaches to the championship. If how they contested the championship is so important, then showing their approaches should be a function of the matrix.

Secondly, in the historical context of the WRC, the third row is important because previous years have used different rules. Teams used to be able to enter three crews in a rally, but they had to nominate two to score points before the start. Peugeot used to hire Gilles Panizzi for tarmac rallies because he was a tarmac specialist

Stop treating these articles like Formula 1 articles. Just because editing decisions worked there, that doesn't mean they will automatically work elsewhere. Mclarenfan17 (talk) 11:51, 22 May 2019 (UTC)

I don't follow Formula-1 nor look at those articles. But for this championship it does not really matter if "somebody" scored 0 points or was not it the start at the first place. Entry list already gives info about the number of entrants. Points eligibility is not the point of this wikitable. To remind, we had some discussion here and here - with lots of different proposals. How come you just now come up with this one without somesort of agreement?

"editors insisted that it was more important for the matrix to show how a team's championship result was achieved rather than who contributed what and when" - with your edit, it still did not show that. Basically you want to show that some teams have two drivers while some have 3. Didn't you also want to show the driver, but ruled out {{Hover title}}? Pelmeen10 (talk) 22:35, 22 May 2019 (UTC)

If the matrix is intended to show how a team scored its championship result, then it needs to show the differences in how the teams approached the championship. Limiting the table to two rows regardless of the actual number of entries implies that all teams only entered two crews in the first place, which is patently untrue. Mclarenfan17 (talk) 07:37, 23 May 2019 (UTC)

Not it doesn't imply that all. That claim is what is patently untrue. The entry list shows all manufacturer-points entries very cleary. Omitting those who were not credited with a result does not imply anything but that they weren't credited with a result. A results matrix its for results, not entries.Tvx1 11:42, 25 May 2019 (UTC)