Talk:Star Wars: Episode III – Revenge of the Sith

Does it scare anyone?

That people are so mindlessly loyal that all it takes is a handful of satirical references to george bush, and people go out explaining why an empire is a good thing, in real life? MY COUNTRY IS FULL OF MORONS! seriously, GL made a very big mistake, he didn't realize that making fun of both bush propoganda and nazi propoganda in the same film and setting it to a special effect rich background, would convince a bunch of rednecked teenagers to start writing essays on the dangers of elitest democratic governments, and the need to replace them with fascist governments, people can't be so dumb that even hearing a parody of bad propoganda they become loyal to a fictional character? can they?!

• bump*

NPOV: Political connetations.

There are some very serious NPOV transgressions in the section Political connetations. One of the most striking is the assertion that Anakin's quote, "from my point of view, the Jedi are evil" contradicts Obi-Wan's earlier assertion. Obi-Wan did not say that "Sith deal only in absolutes," but rather "Only Sith deal in absolutes." The difference here is profound, and the assertion that there is a contradiction is a charged statement at best, and is very disingenuous. May I recommend a complete scrapping of this section, pending a suitable rewrite? It is disappointing to me to see this kind of charged, factually inaccurate drivel survive a process of open critique. --Cgranade 04:44, Jun 5, 2005 (UTC)

I never was thrilled with that section myself, but... Donovan Ravenhull 08:06, 6 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Considering the overwhelming lack of response, I think that it's fair to make a couple of edits in the interest of toning down the section a bit. --Cgranade 07:23, Jun 10, 2005 (UTC)

how is that line about Sith and absolutes a political connotation, there's no analogy given that relates it to anything political, past or present?

I agree in toning this section down. I have taken the liberty of removing that paragraph concerning the "from my point of view, the Jedi are evil" quote because I do not see any political connotations there. I would prefer to revert this entire section to back to the 15:27, 20 May 2005 (UTC) version [1]. Zzyzx11 (Talk) 13:41, 12 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Perhaps, but it seems lighter on content, and a little bit less grammatically correct. Furthermore, the "absolutes" line is still there. I think that paring down what we've got is probably going to be more productive. That's just my two cents, though, so whatever... I am just glad it isn't so charged anymore. --Cgranade 01:20, Jun 14, 2005 (UTC)

"The Invisible Hand"

I always assumed that the name referenced the "invisible hand" of Chancellor Palpatine, secetly controlling everything on both sides of the war.Kuralyov 03:06, 25 May 2005 (UTC)

It is clearly a clever double entendre. It is the Trade Federation we're talking about 65.167.23.134 19:53, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I personally find the hand of palpatine being behind every action in the first trilogy more than a little absurd. In truth most countries stumble ass backwards into empire, or governments become vulnerable to being taken over by meglomaniacs through mismanagement or extended economic depression. It would have been cool if it was made clear that Palpatine really didn't care which side won the war because he positioned himself to win either way... ej 0617 2005

Uh. I'm not quite sure I follow you. Palpatine did manuver himself into a position where by he could become the galaxy's head-of-state. He did plan events and influence others to advance his agenda, However, he was able to do all of this because of the very things you cite in your message, Example: "extended economic depression" is implied by the trade-route debate that preceeded the first episode. The TRADE FEDERATION was an economic orgaization; as were the BANKING CLAN and COMMERCE GUILD. These organizations and others made up a significant amount of the Seperatist organization. And if the beuracracy of the Repulic was NOT being mismanaged at that time -- could you please tell me how that could be the case? The Senate's solution to the Naboo crissis was to appoint a special comitte to talk about it! -- Jason Palpatine 29 June 2005 07:10 (UTC)

Lucas' cameo role

Wasn't he in the background of a Senate scene in The Phantom Menace, also?Kuralyov 03:06, 25 May 2005 (UTC)

Nope. TheCoffee 12:28, 8 Jun 2005 (UTC)

The only cameo Lucas had in EP3 was a voice synthesis, where he recorded his cough during the filming and gave it to General Grievous. --Cioxx 15:15, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Archived Topics

• Archive 01
• Archive 02
• Archive 03

Future Plans

Ratings

Is the list of ratings for each country really necessary? Most film entries don't have such a list, because it's unreliastic to include a ratings for every country, we should stick to US ratings or internation ratings (if there are any) because most ratings are similar. Can we delete the list since it clutters up the page and only confuses the reader? Switcher (talk) 01:02, 31 May 2005 (UTC)

Many people contributed to that section. I think it may well stay as long as, say, the movie is screened in cinemas? It can't really confuse anyone anyhow, and it's not a lot of code. Conf 19:34, 31 May 2005 (UTC)

I agree that the ratings list should stay. Wikimedia tries very hard to not be tied to a specific language or nation, and things like this ratings list are concrete evidence of that effort. In fact, I think that this should be encoded as a general policy. --Cgranade 07:26, Jun 5, 2005 (UTC)

Future paring down

While there is very high interest in this movie right now (including by me), this is going to fade away over the next year. It seems to me that when that time comes, this article could be edited down to less than half its size. The only question then would be when, which in my opinion would be about 3 months after the DVD release. Thoughts? Flames? Death threats? Donovan Ravenhull 11:29, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)

• I think we should not destroy information; eventually, this article should be split up in to several articles, but all of the information in the article right now is notable and encyclopedic. Samboy 06:14, 5 Jun 2005 (UTC)
• Now, young Skywalker … you will die. The Emperor 15:19, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)
  • Thats a relief, I thought I would have to host the Ewok Celebrity Roast of Jar Jar Binks. Death is far kinder. Donovan Ravenhull 19:27, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)
    • Oh my God! Certainly it is! :-)) The Emperor 22:32, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)
• I think no movie article should be longer than any factual article. This should be probably no more than a paragraph or two of plot, and a drastic reduction in all the other areas. Why do you need a complete casting list, and why is a critic review relevant? Tell the movie, who made it, a VERY concise plot of what happens, and let anyone wanting to read more about it consult the available link. My apologies, I don't know how to post my username to sign this...

Disambig

Should there be a disambiguation to the video game, considering the titles are the same? 216.186.51.2 18:15, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I added the disambiguation to the top of the article, though I never played the game, so I did not create the article. --Admiral Roo 18:41, Jun 14, 2005 (UTC)

Jedi = Pinochet ?

I'm removing that out of context line. Chilean democracy was indeed destroyed by Pinochet and his band of thugs. Messhermit 02:25, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Character Importance Indication

A lot of the characters in the "Cast" list are nonspeaking roles,or very close to it...I think these should be indicated as such.Also,neither here not at IMDb does there appear to be an identification of a one-line character,the boy who addresses Anakin/Darth Vader at the Jedi Temple before getting slaughtered.If seen-but-not-heard characters rate mention,why doesn't he?--Louis E./[email protected]/12.144.5.2 22:49, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I agree with you, we should add as much as possible to the list. Anyone else who agrees with us or with Copperchair please say so here so we can stop wasting time editing back and forth. Sahriar 28 June 2005 20:37 (UTC)

I also think it's quite nonsensical to copy other sources' shortcomings (like Padme without any second name, or Beru without "Lars"). Just let's not make it like "if you are not with me, you are my enemy". Conf 29 June 2005 11:49 (UTC)

I think that, being this an encyclopedia, it should have the most accurate information possible regarding the film credits. After all, this is not a "fan boy" page, it is a serious one. Copperchair 1 July 2005 02:54 (UTC)

Your reasoning is fine, but the section is "Cast", not "Credits". We know you believe that only credits that appear in the official credits should be listed, but then we are leaving out a lot of characters and actors that are important to the film. You should be happy we're not including every single extra, only people who have some signifigance to the film. KramarDanIkabu 1 July 2005 03:00 (UTC)

Actually,his reasoning is flawed.We are trying to introduce greater accuracy than the official credits contain,and he keeps removing it (and doesn't care that he's the only one who does that).--Louis E./[email protected]/12.144.5.2 1 July 2005 20:44 (UTC)

Accuracy = "invented"?! In order to be accurate you have to take your information from the official source, in this case, the movie's end credits. Copperchair 2 July 2005 19:32 (UTC)

Copperchair, what you appear to be saying is that people who aren't officially credited weren't actually involved in the movie. Who, would you say, provided the voice of Darth Vader, considering that he's not in official credits? KramarDanIkabu 3 July 2005 16:33 (UTC)

No, I'm not, but they were not credited for some reason. Period. Copperchair 4 July 2005 04:42 (UTC)

Judging from our discussion on his talk page, the only way to resolve this is to ban him. But I'm new around here so I'm not really sure how to report him to the authorities, so one of you should probably do it. Sahriar 1 July 2005 22:40 (UTC)

What I meant was that I understand his reasoning but disagree with it. I agree with you that we are trying to provide an accurate cast listing. KramarDanIkabu 2 July 2005 03:17 (UTC)

Accurate as in "invented"?! Copperchair 2 July 2005 19:28 (UTC)

If you don't like my updates, then submit the conflict to a Mediation Committee. They will settle the conflict. Copperchair 2 July 2005 02:48 (UTC)

Copperchair, are you suggesting that no wikipedia page should ever list uncredited cast-members? john k 2 July 2005 03:04 (UTC)

Of course they should be listed, but in a separate section (not Cast). It could be under Trivia. Copperchair 2 July 2005 19:26 (UTC)

And what about uncredited directors? They're not in official credits listings, either. john k 2 July 2005 03:06 (UTC)

The same goes for directors. Copperchair 2 July 2005 19:27 (UTC)

In some movies, fairly prominent cameos are often uncredited. Do you really think that Sean Connery was not part of the cast of Robin Hood: Prince of Thieves? john k 3 July 2005 16:26 (UTC)

So put it in the Trivia! Copperchair 4 July 2005 04:43 (UTC)

Why is it trivia? If it is a fact that a particular actor played a particular role, but it is uncredited, how is he not part of the cast? A cast list is not the same thing as a credits list. BTW, I agree that it's stupid to list characters where the actor is unknown. john k 4 July 2005 06:04 (UTC)

Its Trivia because it is not mentioned on the credits. Copperchair 4 July 2005 07:11 (UTC)

The only thing that's trivial about it is their omission from the official credits.Which trivializes the official credits!--Louis E./[email protected]/12.144.5.2 5 July 2005 00:38 (UTC)

So you're saying that if the actual director of a movie gives credit to Alan Smithee, or a main character is uncredited for some reason, that it is not of any interest who that character is played by, or who the real director is. For Alan Smithee movies, should we just say that the director is Alan Smithee, and only note in a special trivia section who the real director is? The fact that George Cukor and Sam Wood between them directed probably more than half of Gone With the Wind is unimportant - we should just list Victor Fleming as the director and have done with it? I truly don't understand your perspective at all. Who is credited is obviously a fact worth noting, and uncredited actors and other people involved with a movie should be noted to be uncredited. But that is the only difference I see between a credited and an uncredited performance. Why is it untrivial to note that Sarah Alexandra played the highly memorable character "Little Girl" in Robin Hood: Prince of Thieves, but trivial to note that Sean Connery played King Richard? john k 5 July 2005 02:12 (UTC)

With KramarDanIkabu's proposal now the uncredited cast can be listed, yet preserving the movie's credits. Copperchair 6 July 2005 06:17 (UTC)

Alright Copperchair, I understand why you're taking things like voice of Darth Vader, voice of Commander Gree out, but why are you taking the Amidala out of Padme or the Lars out of Beru? In addition, why do you keep changing the link to Apailana to a link to Queen instead? KramarDanIkabu 5 July 2005 07:02 (UTC)

Because that's how the names appear in the end credits. Copperchair 6 July 2005 06:13 (UTC)

Copperchair, we strive for accuracy, not necessarily officiality. We want to represent the cast of this movie in the most complete way as possible, by giving proper names to characters and by listing those who play an important role, but were uncredited. It doesn't really matter that certain people were uncredited in a movie. If they were their acting, then they were in the movie, and thus must be considered part of the cast. All we ask is to be able to list important roles that were uncredited. All other roles will go in other sections, such as the "cameos" section. George Lucas' character in the opera was not an important character so we put it in a section separate from the main roles. Luke, Leia, and the voice of Darth Vader are very important and noteworthy roles to this article, and the star wars saga in general. 5 July 07:27

Please stop reverting the cast list as it says in the editing conflict template. Copperchair has not relented in his position so at this point either he has to give up or get banned or something. In the meantime, we have to keep the page as it was when the edit conflict message was put up there, even if it is to Copperchair's liking. If you want to have it the right way, then get mediation on it. KramarDanIkabu 6 July 2005 00:51 (UTC)

Copperchair, I have a new suggestion. How about rather than incorporating the unofficial credits into the credits, we split them into two sections labeled Offical Credits and Non-credited, respectively? That way we can keep your insistance on having offical credits there, but also have the non-credited actors and actresses listed under Cast as well? KramarDanIkabu 6 July 2005 03:30 (UTC)

I just added an uncredited role myself to prove I agree with KramarDanIkabu's proposal. Copperchair 6 July 2005 06:12 (UTC)

I regret to inform that people keep adding uncredited roles to the Offcial Cast. I have had to revert it three times now. I have kept my word, and have even added uncredited roles to its section, but it seems some people just don't get it. Copperchair 7 July 2005 02:08 (UTC)

Mabye thats because pretty much everyone doesn't want the cast section to be the way you want it.--LlamaMan 7 July 2005 02:26 (UTC)

This is not about me, it is about observing the division KramarDanIkabu proposed, which I have done. Copperchair 7 July 2005 03:08 (UTC)

Papal Election Reference

I've cut the following sentence fragment out of the end of the article:

"The election of Pope Benedict XVI had also been a very popular subject at the time of the movie release and the new(..)" my ellipsis

Looks like someone forgot to finish a thought when they published it. I don't object in any way, I'm just removing the sentence fragment; feel free to fix it and put it back in. Fernando Rizo 01:44, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)

This fragment was left when someone (user had only an IP address) cut half of this article out. I don't understand why that was done with little or no discussion. boloboffin 11:23, 21 Jun 2005 (CST)

3D release?

What this about a 3D release? I mean the movie uses 3D effects already. -- User:Psi edit

there is a different version: digital 3D edition, which is only available in the cinemas which hv suitable equipment. Episode IV - VI will re-release in digital 3D in a few years. Darth Kevinmhk 10:13, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Mirroring from other films

I think this section should be shortened to only relevent similarities that aren't just coincidences or things that are necessary for the story to work. In particular, these should definately be removed:

• Anakin and Obi-Wan fly their fighter craft through tight obstacles in an enemy ship, similar to Episodes I, IV and VI.
• Anakin and Obi-Wan are sent on a daring rescue mission against an enemy fortress but all is not as it appears (Episode IV).
• The planet name Utapau was Lucas's original name for Tatooine.
• Anakin's arm is cut off by Obi-Wan. Also, in III, Mace Windu and Count Dooku both get one or both hands cut off. A character has an arm or a portion of an arm cut off in each of Episodes II, IV, V and VI. (come on, is there any star wars movie where someone's arm doesn't get cut off?))
• During the rescue of Palpatine Anakin dangles perilously over a seemingly endless chasm, foreshadowing the death of Palpatine in Episode VI. (Anakin hanging in an elevator shaft foreshadows Palpatine's death 3 movies later?)
• The attack of the droid starfighters is similar to the scene in Return of the Jedi when hundreds of TIE squadrons attack the Rebel fleet.

And maybe these should also be removed:

• After fighting and defeating Anakin, Obi-Wan picks up Anakin's lightsaber before leaving. This lightsaber is later given to Luke in Episode IV, "Your father's lightsaber".
• When Obi-Wan and Yoda return to the Jedi Temple and discover the corpses of their fellow Jedi, closer inspection of the bodies reveals that not all of them were killed by Clone stormtroopers, that a lightsaber was used as well, implicating one of the Jedi as a betrayer. Obi-Wan decides to look at the security holograms despite Yoda's warning that he will find it painful, and he is dumbstruck to find Anakin led the massacre. This is paralleled in Episode IV when Luke, Obi-Wan and the droids come upon the ruins of the Jawas' sandcrawler and find all of them slaughtered. Luke at first suspects the Sandpeople, but Obi-Wan's closer inspection shows that Imperial stormtroopers were actually responsible. Luke realizes what this means and races home, despite Obi-Wan's warning that he might not like what he finds ... the family farm sacked, and the charred bodies of his aunt and uncle. (this ones too long, so if its not removed, it should atleast be shortened)
• Obi-Wan and Anakin duel in front of a window with a striking resemblance to the window seen behind Luke and Vader in their duel on Cloud City (Episode V). (I'm not sure about this one, but I don't remember this window from either movie)
• When Obi-Wan makes his rendezvous with the Tantive IV, the ship he is flying is swallowed up by the Tantive IV's underbelly. This echoes the ultimate fate of the Tantive IV itself (Episode IV)

Please let me know what you think. Sahriar 00:42, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Credits

People need to get a grip. I don't see why some fanboys are so incessant about ninserting their own trivial pet theory in here. Anakin Skywalker became Darth Vader; hence they arte the same person. Palpatine, I don't see how anyone can argue the point that he's a different character just because he switched his title. Tell me - in Ep. I, did he bcome a different character when he rose from senator to chancellor? You're all ridiculous. Kuralyov 8 July 2005 22:22 (UTC)

The article will soon be protected if this edit war continues. Furthermore, anyone violating the WP:3RR will receive a block (the "vandalism" clause does not apply here as it is a content dispute, not vandalism). violet/riga (t) 9 July 2005 11:28 (UTC)

I agree with Kuralyov and have been reverting fanboys' edits for weeks... Copperchair 07:57, 10 July 2005 (UTC)