Talk:Cleveland/Archive 1

Clevelanders! Please contribute to the rapid transit page

I've added a Cleveland Rapid Transit page, but everything I know about the system comes from the Web and various railfan sources. It would be great if a local could look this over and fix any mistakes.

--Jfruh 23:39, 23 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Natives?

I was looking at the list of Cleveland natives and I'm not sure that this list takes the right approach. It includes LeBron James, who is from Akron, which is really too far away geographically and historically to count as Cleveland. Lou Boudreau was born in Illinois and as far as I know wasn't a Clevelander until the Indians took him there. Jim Brown was from Georgia. I understand "native" to mean someone who was born in a city, or at least grew up there. I wouldn't complain about Bob Hope if he were on the list, because while he was born in England he grew up in Cleveland. Is there a standard approach to determining who is a native of a city? If sports stars for Cleveland teams count as natives then every movie actor should count as a native of Hollywood.

--Lemuel 14:50, Sep 18, 2004 (UTC)

Perhaps we need to include a section on "local heroes" or "figures associated with Cleveland" to differentiate between those raised in Cleveland and those who are associated with it, etc. For example Rockefeller was eliminated today although (at least in the city) it is often said that "Rockefeller started his career selling apples on Public Square."

--T. R. Stratton 07:50, Feb 7, 2005 (UTC)

I wouldn't have a problem with "local heroes" or "figures associated with Cleveland". Another title might be "famous residents". I removed Rockefeller because he didn't move to the Cleveland area until he was 15 or 16, and then it was Strongsville. He didn't live in Cleveland until later. To stir things up more, Paul Newman should probably be removed from the list since he is actually from Shaker Heights, a city with its own Wikipedia article. --Beirne 12:28, Feb 7, 2005 (UTC)

I'm sure this has been discussed in some wikipedia board somewhere (I don't really have time to search for it), but it seems to me that people who came from traditional suburbs should be including on the main city's list. For example, I was born in Parma, Ohio, but never lived there. I grew up in Cleveland, Ohio, and Brooklyn, Ohio, but if there was to be a wiki article about me I would want to be listed as a Cleveland native. Of course we can't ask people where they want to be listed, but if we go only on birthplace, there will be some strange singularities. Also, in some parts of the world the suburbs are always annexed by the city and in some places they aren't, so, for example, native lists in the united states are going to be rather odd if they cut all the people who grew up in the suburbs. I agree that Rockefeller probably shouldn't be listed as a native, unless there are some caveats, etc., perhaps he should just have the listing in the earlier section only. --T. R. Stratton 22:21, Feb 7, 2005 (UTC)

People from suburbs should not be included in the list of Cleveland natives. If you read my earlier comment you will see that I wouldn't complain about Bob Hope, who was born in England but came to Cleveland as a child. I consider someone who grew up in a city to be a native. Where to draw the line is a bit hazy, but I'd say before 5 or 6 years of age. Regarding suburbs, point about suburbs being annexed doesn't fit. If someone was born in Ohio City, formerly a separate community, they should be listed as a Cleveland native. If they were born in a separate suburb, though, that is where they should show up. I understand that in casual conversation with people from elsewhere one tends to identify themselves with a major known city rather than an unknown one, but Wikipedia is about the facts, not convenience or civic pride. Listing suburban natives would be fine in an article on Northeast Ohio or Greater Cleveland, but the Cleveland article isn't about either of those things. It is about Cleveland.

--Beirne 00:16, Feb 8, 2005 (UTC)

I pulled out LeBron James, Trent Reznor, and John D. Rockefeller again for the reasons I mentioned earlier. I thought the idea of listing "local heroes" or "famous residents" was a good one. It would be fine to make that kind of section and list them as well as others.

I just pulled a bunch more names out of the Cleveland Natives section. I hate to be a pain, but there were two reasons to pull out the names. One, they only lived in Cleveland as adults. The idea of being a native is that the location is where you were born or at least grew up. If someone wants to add a "Famous Clevelander" section it could contain Rockefeller, Bob Feller, and many others. The other reason was that many of the people listed weren't actually from the city of Cleveland, they were from other nearby communities. I understand that in casual conversation someone may be referred to as being from the nearest known city, but the Wikipedia needs to be precise. Paul Newman, for example, should be in the Shaker Heights article, not the Cleveland article. There is a Greater Cleveland article that would be appropriate for Cleveland-area natives if someone wants to add them there.--Beirne 14:59, Mar 13, 2005 (UTC)