Talk:82nd Grey Cup

Untitled

This and a lot of Grey Cup articles suffer from journalistic style (portions of the article may have been copied verbatim from a contemporary source, which makes them copyright infringement as well.) The problems appear in the "Game Summary" section. I am attempting to clean up by:

• removing the dateline ("CALGARY -") from the section
• changing present tense and conditional ("Calgary would come back to score") to past ("Calgary came back to score")
• removing opinion and analysis
• removing human interest stories or reducing them to fact
• removing intro paragraphs which repeat information in article head
• moving matters of particular interest to article head
• moving statistics, player awards and similar information to the end of the Game Summary section
• removing any portion which is connected to a particular time ("Calgary hopes to do better next year")
• general grammatical fixes

I'm trying to get the tag off this page and prevent the same from being done to a number of other similar pages. Please give me some feedback whether I'm on the right track.--Bolognaking 20:04, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

I don't necessarily agree with you on some points. I do agree about the present tense, removing opinion and analysis, connection to a particular time and of course grammatical fixes. However the rest it is 50/50 or "NO" and I will list them.

*removing intro paragraphs which repeat information in article head

For example, what you can do and you can take a look at list of CFL seasons articles except the 2006. It simply states the year of the season and the age of the league, which is simple. We can do for example, The 82nd Grey Cup is/was the 1994 Canadian Football League championship game, that/which was held at BC Place Stadium in Vancouver, BC. The two teams vying for the championship are/were the B.C. Lions and the Baltimore CFLers.

• Don't mention the score or the game winner in the article head, so that way in your proposed game summary there is a intro and conclusion, which tells the whole story.

*removing human interest stories or reducing them to fact

If it was up to me I would reduce them to fact. However, I think that is hard to do, because if you look at every Sports finals or even a fake-sport like Wrestling's Wrestlemania that is when human interest stories are born. You have to have some human element in the story, because that's when true sports heroism, legends or simply the way that championship games are going to be remembered. For example, Michael Jordan playing sick and got the winning basket, Ryan Smyth getting hit in the face with a puck and coming back to play minutes later and Joe Carter's game-winning home run at the SkyDome. You know stories that separates good athletes-to-superstars-to-legends that is how people will remember these championship games, however it does need to be improved in these pages.

moving statistics, player awards and similar information to the end of the Game Summary section

I would say "no" to that and if you want to know why you, can look at the Super Bowl pages or other championship games. It will just look weird.

matters of particular interest

I have no idea what you mean because anything can be a matter of interest, which can complicate things and make other people than the both of us to switch each page to try to be the same or out do the other. Bestghuran 15:47 24 November 2006 (UTC)

I like the trivia area. Can you do that for the rest of the Grey Cup pages. Bestghuran 9:21 25 November 2006 (UTC)

I can see that I didn't express myself very well. Sorry.

• Human Interest stories--you're right, they make a sporting event interesting. What I was thinking about was the projection of emotions onto the players: talking about the team's emotions as they won or lost or gave up a fumble or whatever. Such things are not really verifiable unless you have a quotation from a player or the coach to that effect. I didn't mean that we should leave out such facts as that Lui Passaglia kicked a Grey-cup winning field goal on the last play of the last game of his career or that one of the Blue Bombers (I think it was Buddy Tinsley but have not yet been able to verify) was knocked unconscious and nearly drowned in the Mud Bowl. We should put these stories in the Trivia section
• Matters of particular interest--What I meant by this is some particular fact that stands out and characterizes the game. If you were going to mention one thing about this game that makes it memorable, what would it be? 1994: first American-based team to compete for the Grey Cup. 1962: game called on account of fog and finished the next day. 1948: Calgary fans bring pageantry to the game. In my opinion these matters should be in the head intro.
• Statistics and awards--I wasn't thinking of the pages which have those very nice sidebar summaries. Those look great! Nor was I thinking about box score and scoring summaries. I was thinking of things like "Running Back Mr. X ran for n yards on the day." "Mr. Y was named MVP" "Quarterback Z gave up n interceptions" which I think should go into the trivia section.
• Head Intro--I see this as the paragraph that should tell the bare bones of the story, so that someone from New Zealand or someplace could understand what the article was about. For this I think we should mention that it was a Canadian football championship game, when it took place, where it took place, who played, who won, what the score was, and the most memorable fact about it.

I see the game summary as quite literally a summary of what happened during the game. It could have an introduction dealing with the weather, field conditions and so on. From there on it should be a description of the play of the game. This kind of summary is necessary because otherwise we do not hear about defensive plays or other remarkable plays which did not score points. The box score tells you that the quarterback scored a touchdown on a one-yard run but not how the ball got on the one in the first place. A blocked kick? An interference call? A long drive? A 105 yard pass-and-run play? As a conclusion I don't think it's necessary or desirable to repeat the info from the head intro since the reader has already read it, except where the intro refers to an exciting last play. So, "Tony Gabriel's touchdown reception with 20 seconds remaining sealed the Ottawa win." rather than "Tony Gabriel's touchdown reception with 20 seconds remaining ensured that the Ottawa Rough Riders defeated Saskatchewan Roughriders 23-20 at CNE Stadium Toronto to win the 64th Grey Cup and become champions of the CFL's 1976 season."

I'll work on the Trivia sections. Are there any usable images of game play? A few pictures would sure brighten up these articles, and I'm no good at that.--Bolognaking 13:15, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

Trivia sections now added. --Bolognaking 18:25, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

I see what you mean. I think the one mistake that I did about the 82nd Grey Cup was the fact that during that time and I'm sure you remember that the league was going down-hill and several Grey Cups after 1991 or 89 was dismal in terms of interest. When the American teams came in the league fans lost interest even more, but when Baltimore was in the championship game against B.C. for the first time fans from other teams were cheering for the Lions as Canada's team, because they don't want their historic championship trophy to be going South of the Border, that was the one mistake I did, because I did not know how to explain it in a game summary. However, what needs to be done in your opinion to remove the improvement heading from the top. -- Bestghuran 10:15 27 November 2006 (UTC)

The paragraph I'm looking at is:

The 82nd Grey Cup was the first-ever championship in professional football history to feature a United States-vs-Canada matchup between the Baltimore CFLers and the B.C. Lions. Other than it being a U.S. vs Canada matchup, the 82nd Grey Cup is considered by many to be one of the ten best Grey Cup games of all time, because it was a nail-biter from start-to-finish.[1]. The game could have gone either way considering that both teams were almost equal in their time of possession, that both teams put up a strong defensive effort and that both teams had reliable veteran-kickers that are accurate when needed to kick a field goal. The game couldn't decide a winner until the last second of the game when Lui Passaglia kicked in a 38-yard field goal that gave the Lions the win and the Grey Cup in front of their home crowd at BC Place Stadium.

In my opinion the first sentence contains information of such significance that it should be moved to the main introduction. The second, that this is considered to be one of the 10 greatest Grey Cup games could go in the main introduction or under trivia if the main is getting too bulky. The third basically says that the teams were well-matched. Isn't that apparent from the closeness of the game? This is analysis, I think, and I would discard it. The last sentence repeats what's already said in the main head and at the end of the Game Summary. It's not helpful and I would delete it.

The point you raise should appear somewhere in the article, probably under trivia. How is this wording: "The appearance of an American team in the Grey Cup united Canadian fans for the first time behind the Lions as representatives of Canada."? Just for interest's sake, and to be sure we're not violating WP:OR here, is there a source for this fact?--Bolognaking 19:07, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

I like where you are heading with this one and it sounds good, how about since you and I are the only ones discussing the improvements why not you improve my work the way you see it appropriate. Then I can check it out give my opinion, if all good let's do it for the rest of the Grey Cup sites. Also if you want why don't you work on the Grey Cup pages from now on, if you are interested and join the CFL team? Bestghuran 17:02 28 November 2006 (UTC) The other guy that works on CFL pages is Qutezuce

Thanks. I have been trying to make sure that there is at least a stub for every Grey Cup game, and if possible to include some information about the game as well, using the CFL site as a source. Qutezuce has been very helpful and a guy called Mundster has been editing a few also. A lot of them could use better stats and, if possible, photos of game play.--Bolognaking 21:22, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Actually I have some pictures and news articles of this game and the Grey Cup logo, but I would need a scanner.-Bestghuran 19:06 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Trivia Sections

Renaming trivia sections to "Notable Facts" does not mean they are not trivia sections and subject to the Wikipedia trivia guidelines. This is not a condemnation of the article in question or the information; it is only a reminder that the information should be integrated into main body. Bryan26 15:41, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

I think we can narrow the focus of the section to "Statistics and Awards" which should comply with the guideline. I see (I've been away for awhile) that general remarks about the historical significance of the game have been creeping into the game summary--We probably need a "historical significance" subsection. --Bolognaking 16:17, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

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BetacommandBot 23:16, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

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