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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Untifler (talk | contribs) at 20:40, 10 November 2004. The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Hi, Gene s! If you have some questions, you may ask it to me, please don't send any correction without discussion! Yours, --Untifler 23:18, 5 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Same goes for you. Unless you discuss first before changing, I will not honor your request. --Gene s 09:47, 7 Nov 2004 (UTC)
First of all I'd upload this article, than you first changed it :^)

--Untifler 18:31, 9 Nov 2004 (UTC)

p.s. as for tatar alphabet, it is not less friendly for English speaking reader, than Polish, Latvian of Magyar. But You are strongly opposite tatar alphabet only.

I correct only those articles which I see. I don't correct Spanish articles because I don't get across them. Your accusations of racial bias are unwelcome. I can just as easily point at your racial bias.
Please, don't take offence. Could you not to get accross them? :) Sorry for my beeng unwelcome :)--Untifler 18:31, 9 Nov 2004 (UTC)

p.p.s. x is kh in Spanish too, not only in Tatar. So< for pronouncing all pages'll have transcriptions of tatar naming.

The name Muhammed is the name of Islamic prophet. There is an accepted English spelling of the name. There is an accepted English spelling of Afghan. There are NO articles where, for example, Russian names are spelled in Cyrillic and used as link titles. Why should be unreadable (in my opinion) Tatar names used as article titles when there is perfectly valid English equivalent?
As for Russian, Russian names are transliterated, also all of them are Christian and has Enhlish equivalents: see: Pyotr Ilyich Tchaikovsky. anglicisation is Peter.

Tatar use alphabet, same with English. This is Latin alphabet with some extra sighns. And for Tatars Möxämmäd or Möxämmät is Tatar name first of all (no Arabic of Islamic), also like Pyotr (not Peter) is name for Russian. As for speeling, Tatar is not better, than another language uses Latin. Those languages also use their name in their oun form in English texts. Examples:José Luis Rodríguez Zapatero, Cemal Gürsel. Interested in pronounsion will click link with strange name, where transliteration will be speled. --Untifler 18:31, 9 Nov 2004 (UTC)

That would be true, if the latinized Tatar (Möxämmät) was used in 17th century. But it was not. The names of those khans were written in arabic. --Gene s 05:11, 10 Nov 2004 (UTC)
But his name was pronounced in Tatar language which is not changes for 500 years. "Muhamed" as it is pronounced in Arabic is a differ of Tatar Möxämmäd, becose Arabic is not language of vowel harmony. Traditional Tatar speeling could not be transliterated using another methods. May be Moekhaemmaed is more friendly to English speaker?
No, it would not be. But Mohammad would be fine, Moqammad or even Moxammad are fine. As for "Tatar language which is not changes for 500 years" no one cannot prove that and it's likely to be incorrect. No language is frozen for 500 years, all languages evolve, including Tatar language.
Tatar as Turkic language is agglunative language (the most unchangeble). I mean, that grammar and pronouncing haven't changed in the last 500 years. New words appeared and some dissapeared, of course.
I'm glad that Moxammad is fine. So I'll do an articles in such tradition. as for Kuchum, It was in another window when I upoaled that file and answered you. So, I named it mistakely Küçüm after the Kuchum, but I planned to name him Küçüm firstly, and move page to Kuchum (becose I'm lasy for doing redirects). Okay. So, all classical Tatar letters is normal for English speaker, but extra letters only are uncomfortable. --Untifler 20:40, 10 Nov 2004 (UTC)

As for another languages converted their alphabets to Latin - their pre-convertational names are used in English texts in their own Latin form, such as Romanian Vlad Tepeş (Romanian used Cyrillic before the 19th cent.). --Untifler 14:19, 10 Nov 2004 (UTC)

But the Dracula article is titled as Vlad III Dracula. No Romanian characters in the title.

p.p.p.s Pleas not correct this article before it became a translation article of the week!

Same goes for you. You did remove my edits before starting this discussing. --Gene s 09:47, 7 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Sorry for my radicalism. Let be the partneres!

--Untifler 18:31, 9 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Let's try. Face it - Tatars are unknown in the West compare to Spaniards or even Turks. When you write your articles, try to make them easier for Westerners to read and to learn about Tatar culture. When you fill the articles with foreign-looking characters, you basically shock the readers. They see the text filled with obviously foreign symbols and would be less likely to read the stuff because it's difficult and alien. Also keep in mind that your English is not perfect. I and maybe others would help and copyedit it, but I don't want to touch it because of all foreign characters - I would remove it, but you would probably object.
When you use alien names for people or places (like Jalal ad Din vs whatever you used for his name) it's hard for readers to relate to what they already know. For example, I read about Jalal ad Din, but I never heard of Calaladen (or whatever his name in Tatar, sorry for spelling; besides his name was never written in latinized Tatar, it was written in Arabic). Thus, instead of promoting Tatar culture, you marginalize it.
Think about it - your goal is not to use as many Tatar charactes as possible, but to promote culture. Right now you are sacrificing clarity for authenticity. I believe it's wrong.
You are right. I think that Cäläletdin realy was my mistake. Becose he was steppe Tatar, khane of Golden Horde and modern Tatar language wasn't still in use. so, we pronounce his name by Arabic ways of prononcing in 1920s, when Arabic still was in usage. but we really don't know how this name was pronounced by extinct steppe Tatars.
We should mean Engish-speakers. This is English wiki. You agree, but at the same time you create article Küçüm. That makes me doubt your sincerity. Google gives 421 English pages for Kuchum [1] and only 3 English results for Küçüm [2] This is wrong. You should not do it like this - you say one thing but do completely different.
Some languages, such as Turkish has pronounsing, related to Tatar. But after translating of English text all names traditionally are used in English form as untranslateble foreign name, so English speeling became one absolute speeling. As for Tatar form - I think it needs. Coming to Tatarstan any language speaker will see Tatar form only. I think, that main name (also like head ot the article) ought to bee Tatar name with "funny letters". As for promotion of culture, I think, that it is able (for me and you) to write English speeling in brakets after the Tatar name always. (but fo speeling only, becose in different lnguages traditions are different: Estonians prefer to use Tatar Latin, not transliteration, another languages may prefer use own form).
The article title should be in English. If there is a generally-accepted name, it should be used for article title. Alternative spellings should be in the article on the first line. Read this: Wikipedia:Naming_conventions
--Gene s 15:12, 10 Nov 2004 (UTC)
I'm not sure that Äfğän Möxämmäd has any generally-accepted name, becose mausoleum is only rest of his life. as for Dracula, his real name is'n speeled "Vlad Tsepesh (Vlad T,epeş)" as you assume, but "Vlad T,epeş /vlad tsepesh/" as I assume for Tatar names. So national speeling is has priority.--Untifler 20:40, 10 Nov 2004 (UTC)
It is important, becose by all Latin languages's tradition all foreign names are used in their own form, but Tatar language names was never.
As for my English, you are absolutely right. But I hope, that "funny letters" is not a reason not to correct mistakes. --Untifler 14:19, 10 Nov 2004 (UTC)
--Gene s 05:11, 10 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Use English

Also please read Wikipedia:Naming conventions (use English) --Gene s 15:17, 10 Nov 2004 (UTC)

You can also take a look at Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (use English) and Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (anglicization) --Gene s 15:27, 10 Nov 2004 (UTC)