Wikipedia:Deletion review
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Deletion review (DRV) is for reviewing speedy deletions and outcomes of deletion discussions. This includes appeals to delete pages kept after a prior discussion.
If you are considering a request for a deletion review, please read the "Purpose" section below to make sure that is what you wish to do. Then, follow the instructions below.
Purpose
Deletion review may be used:
- if someone believes the closer of a deletion discussion interpreted the consensus incorrectly;
- if a speedy deletion was done outside of the criteria or is otherwise disputed;
- if significant new information has come to light since a deletion that would justify recreating the deleted page;
- if a page has been wrongly deleted with no way to tell what exactly was deleted; or
- if there were substantial procedural errors in the deletion discussion or speedy deletion.
Deletion review should not be used:
- because of a disagreement with the deletion discussion's outcome that does not involve the closer's judgment (a page may be renominated after a reasonable timeframe);
- (This point formerly required first consulting the deleting admin if possible. As per this discussion an editor is not required to consult the closer of a deletion discussion (or the deleting admin for a speedy deletion) before starting a deletion review. However doing so is good practice, and can often save time and effort for all concerned. Notifying the closer is required.)
- to point out other pages that have or have not been deleted (as each page is different and stands or falls on its own merits);
- to challenge an article's deletion via the proposed deletion process, or to have the history of a deleted page restored behind a new, improved version of the page, called a history-only undeletion (please go to Wikipedia:Requests for undeletion for these);
- to repeat arguments already made in the deletion discussion;
- to argue technicalities (such as a deletion discussion being closed ten minutes early);
- to request that previously deleted content be used on other pages (please go to Wikipedia:Requests for undeletion for these requests);
- to attack other editors, cast aspersions, or make accusations of bias (such requests may be speedily closed); or
- for uncontroversial undeletions, such as undeleting a very old article where substantial new sources have subsequently arisen. Use Wikipedia:Requests for undeletion instead.
Copyright violating, libelous, or otherwise prohibited content will not be restored.
Instructions
Before listing a review request, please:
- Consider attempting to discuss the matter with the closer as this could resolve the matter more quickly. There could have been a mistake, miscommunication, or misunderstanding, and a full review may not be needed. Such discussion also gives the closer the opportunity to clarify the reasoning behind a decision.
- Check that it is not on the list of perennial requests. Repeated requests every time some new, tiny snippet appears on the web have a tendency to be counter-productive. It is almost always best to play the waiting game unless you can decisively overcome the issues identified at deletion.
Steps to list a new deletion review
 | If your request is completely non-controversial (e.g., restoring an article deleted with a PROD, restoring an image deleted for lack of adequate licensing information, asking that the history be emailed to you, etc), please use Wikipedia:Requests for undeletion instead. |
| 1. |
and paste the template skeleton at the top of the discussions (but not at the top of the page). Then fill in {{subst:drv2
|page=File:Foo.png
|xfd_page=Wikipedia:Files for deletion/2009 February 19#Foo.png
|article=Foo
|reason=
}} ~~~~
|
| 2. |
Inform the editor who closed the deletion discussion by adding the following on their user talk page:
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| 3. |
For nominations to overturn and delete a page previously kept, attach |
| 4. |
Leave notice of the deletion review outside of and above the original deletion discussion:
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Commenting in a deletion review
Any editor may express their opinion about an article or file being considered for deletion review. In the deletion review discussion, please type one of the following opinions preceded by an asterisk (*) and surrounded by three apostrophes (''') on either side. If you have additional thoughts to share, you may type this after the opinion. Place four tildes (~~~~) at the end of your entry, which should be placed below the entries of any previous editors:
- Endorse the original closing decision; or
- Relist on the relevant deletion forum (usually Articles for deletion); or
- List, if the page was speedy deleted outside of the established criteria and you believe it needs a full discussion at the appropriate forum to decide if it should be deleted; or
- Overturn the original decision and optionally an (action) per the Guide to deletion. For a keep decision, the default action associated with overturning is delete and vice versa. If an editor desires some action other than the default, they should make this clear; or
- Allow recreation of the page if new information is presented and deemed sufficient to permit recreation.
- Some consider it a courtesy, to other DRV participants, to indicate your prior involvements with the deletion discussion or the topic.
| Examples of opinions for an article that had been deleted |
| *'''Endorse''' The original closing decision looks like it was sound, no reason shown here to overturn it. ~~~~ |
| *'''Relist''' A new discussion at AfD should bring a more thorough discussion, given the new information shown here. ~~~~ |
| *'''Allow recreation''' The new information provided looks like it justifies recreation of the article from scratch if there is anyone willing to do the work. ~~~~ |
| *'''List''' Article was speedied without discussion, criteria given did not match the problem, full discussion at AfD looks warranted. ~~~~ |
| *'''Overturn and merge''' The article is a content fork, should have been merged into existing article on this topic rather than deleted. ~~~~ |
| *'''Overturn and userfy''' Needs more development in userspace before being published again, but the subject meets our notability criteria. ~~~~ |
| *'''Overturn''' Original deletion decision was not consistent with current policies. ~~~~ |
Remember that deletion review is not an opportunity to (re-)express your opinion on the content in question. It is an opportunity to correct errors in process (in the absence of significant new information), and thus the action specified should be the editor's feeling of the correct interpretation of the debate.
The presentation of new information about the content should be prefaced by Relist, rather than Overturn and (action). This information can then be more fully evaluated in its proper deletion discussion forum. Allow recreation is an alternative in such cases.
Temporary undeletion
Admins participating in deletion reviews are routinely requested to restore deleted pages under review and replace the content with the {{TempUndelete}} template, leaving the history for review by everyone. However, copyright violations and violations of the policy on biographies of living persons should not be restored.
Closing reviews
A nominated page should remain on deletion review for at least seven days. After seven days, an administrator will determine whether a consensus exists. If that consensus is to undelete, the admin should follow the instructions at Wikipedia:Deletion review/Administrator instructions. If the consensus was to relist, the page should be relisted at the appropriate forum. If the consensus was that the deletion was endorsed, the discussion should be closed with the consensus documented. If the administrator finds that there is no consensus in the deletion review, then in most cases this has the same effect as endorsing the decision being appealed. However, in some cases, it may be more appropriate to treat a finding of "no consensus" as equivalent to a "relist"; admins may use their discretion to determine which outcome is more appropriate.
If a speedy deletion is appealed, the closer should treat a lack of consensus as a direction to overturn the deletion, since it indicates that the deletion was not uncontroversial (which is a requirement of almost all criteria for speedy deletion). Any editor may then nominate the page at the appropriate deletion discussion forum. But such nomination is in no way required, if no editor sees reason to nominate.
Ideally all closes should be made by an administrator to ensure that what is effectively the final appeal is applied consistently and fairly but in cases where the outcome is patently obvious or where a discussion has not been closed in good time it is permissible for a non-admin (ideally a DRV regular) to close discussions. Non-consensus closes should be avoided by non-admins unless they are absolutely unavoidable and the closer is sufficiently experienced at DRV to make that call. (Hint: if you are not sure that you have enough DRV experience then you don't.)
- Speedy closes
- Where the closer of a deletion discussion realizes their close was wrong, and nobody has endorsed, the closer may speedily close as overturn. They should fully reverse their close, restoring any deleted pages if appropriate.
- Where the nominator of a DRV wishes to withdraw their nomination, and nobody else has recommended any outcome other than endorse, the nominator may speedily close as "endorse" (or ask someone else to do so on their behalf).
- Certain discussions may be closed without result if there is no prospect of success (e.g. disruptive nominations, if the nominator is repeatedly nominating the same page, or the page is listed at WP:DEEPER). These will usually be marked as "administrative close".
6 February 2023
5 February 2023
Embassy of Turkey, Baku
I believe the consensus here is delete not redirect. If a redirect is preferred this can happen after deletion of the page's history. See my discussion with closing admin User_talk:Patar_knight#Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Embassy_of_Turkey,_Baku. LibStar (talk) 23:01, 5 February 2023 (UTC)
- Relist there was no mention of a redirect prior to the close, so the closer should have voted to redirect rather than close that way if that was their opinion. Relisting would allow for the close to be converted to a vote and allow other users to respond to redirecting as an ATD.Frank Anchor 23:46, 5 February 2023 (UTC)
- Relist. The ATD was not mentioned before, making this a supervote. However, it should be considered. Clyde!Franklin! 01:39, 6 February 2023 (UTC)
3 February 2023
Ferrari Challenge
Overturn to keep - An attempt to discuss with the closer, Daniel (and another editor, 78.26 who posted first to endorse the close) was met with Drmies using profanity towards me before the closer could respond, so he simply referred me to here. I will paste my original comment from the closer's talk page:
Sorry, but I have to disagree. Obviously, I'm INVOLVED, but I don't see how it can be closed as anything other than keep. None of the delete/redirect !voters did much of anything to explain how the links posted by 5225C and Jovanmilic97 didn't meet GNG; Drmies attempted, but using phrases like The second, the Italian source, it's better
(while also misrepresenting the scope of the article, which he later doubled down on when corrected by HumanBodyPiloter5) and The fourth, from Racer, that's OK
doesn't come off to me as very dismissive of them.
It has nothing to do with wanting vindication of the article in the state it is in
. But AfD is not cleanup and GNG is not concerned with whether the sources are present in the article, but whether they exist (please correct me if I'm wrong here). - "Ghost of Dan Gurney" (work / talk) 04:01, 3 February 2023 (UTC)
- (Invloved) Overturn to keep - This was one of the most bizarre deletion discussions I've been involved in (admittedly not that many). Firstly you have the repeated BLARing (by an admin) rather than simply following the recommendations of WP:BLAR (which thankfully the nom did do). Then the very strange rationales/comments given which at times didn't relate to this article (eg "The article's subject is not a car, it's a race.") ignoring of WP:NOTCLEANUP, and a failure to refute that the sources presented met GNG. Some users cited WP:TNT, but that states "Copyright violations, extensive cases of advocacy, and undisclosed paid sock farms are frequently blown up" and thus doesn't really apply in this instance. And finally the close which looks nothing like someone interpreting consensus, but everything like someone giving their own view on the state of the article (and I don't see how this close is valid anyway, what "procedure" was an issue here?). I !voted to keep this article, and I really can't see how someone can honestly say they did not see a consensus to keep. A7V2 (talk) 09:48, 3 February 2023 (UTC)
- (Involved) Overturn to keep - While I do agree to a significant degree with the concerns that this article is poorly structured and unclear in scope, WP:NOTCLEANUP applies and WP:GNG has been clearly demonstrated just through a quick search of recent sources that are easily accessible online, let alone the thirty-odd years of less-easily accessible coverage the subject has in print sources. I have no idea why this would be closed as anything other than keep, or at least an WP:ATD like draftifying that would keep the edit history. HumanBodyPiloter5 (talk) 11:30, 3 February 2023 (UTC)HumanBodyPiloter5 (talk) 11:33, 3 February 2023 (UTC)
- Overturn to keep - as an uninvolved editor, I don't believe the closer has reflected consensus nor policy in unilaterally deciding what will happen at a following AfD. I accept that many of the sources are not independent, however it is hard to see how they could be anything other than they are given that the information about races and drivers comes from a database held by the organisers. Where else is this information to come from? That's not an indication of clean-up to me. There are sufficient sources to show notability. I can't see that there is any problem here that requires solving. JMWt (talk) 17:35, 3 February 2023 (UTC)
- Overturn to keep the procedural close result reads to me like a WP:SUPERVOTE. Ther e was clear consensus to keep and that WP:GNG had been met. Frank Anchor 18:16, 3 February 2023 (UTC)
- Overturn to Keep which was the clear consensus of the editors responding. The closer can tag the article as needing cleanup, and there can be a discussion on the talk page about the tagging, but there has been a Keep consensus. Robert McClenon (talk) 04:42, 4 February 2023 (UTC)
- (Involved) Overturn to keep – The conduct of this AfD, from the initial BLARing of the article, and the reason given for the BLARing, to the nomination and the nominator's admission that they actually hadn't read the article, to comments by editors !voting to delete, and the closer's comments, have been downright weird. There was a variety of sources given to support the subject passing the GNG, and a clear consensus that the subject did pass the GNG was formed. Comments that criticised the sources did not seem to demonstrate any familiarity with the outlets, and at points it appeared that delete !voters did not really understand the scope of the article. Both keep and delete !voters agreed that the article was not and is not in good shape, but both sides appeared to misunderstand cleanup-related policies, and at no point did the overall consensus stray from keep. I do not understand why it was closed as anything else. On a procedural level I am also confused: what procedure was being used to close this AfD, and what mechanism allows for an AfD to be closed in this way? 5225C (talk • contributions) 04:56, 4 February 2023 (UTC)
- So... Why are we here? I read the close as "keep but clean up" which appears to be respecting both the numerical consensus and the content concerns raised in the discussion. Would it not just be easier to implement some of the suggestions advocated in that discussion, than to argue a clear "keep" needed to be recorded? Jclemens (talk) 05:49, 4 February 2023 (UTC)
- I also don't get why we are here, except to waste our time on some bureaucracy. The nominator of this discussion does not want the article deleted, and it was not deleted. Phil Bridger (talk) 09:17, 4 February 2023 (UTC)
- Overturn to Keep, which was the consensus of the discussion. A Keep closure doesn't imply a vindication of the current state of the article. I don't actually think that the case for deletion was made very well, certainly not for something like WP:TNT which is quite a high bar to meet. A lot of the Delete comments focused on edit warring and other behavioural issues on the article, which is frankly irrelevant. The nomination doesn't really advocate deletion at all and reads like something purely procedural. There were some arguments on the basis of the GNG, but sources were provided and there wasn't much of an attempt to refute them, and arguments based on WP:NOTWEBHOST weren't really spelled out. If there is going to be another discussion about this I'd suggest making the case for deletion more clearly and focusing on the article rather than editors' behaviour. Hut 8.5 09:55, 4 February 2023 (UTC)
- Close as unnecessary. The original deletion was procedurally closed which resulted in keeping the article. There is nothing to do here but argue. The article is not deleted, therefore this DRV serves no purpose. Spend time improving the article instead. — The Hand That Feeds You:Bite 17:06, 4 February 2023 (UTC)
- Endorse per WP:PROCEDURALCLOSE because there were "issues with the deletion nomination". According to the nominator, he made a
procedural nomination in order to stop the edit war
. It was meant to facilitate dispute resolution surrounding Drmies's bold redirections, which he based on an argument thatthere is not a bit of properly verified information here to suggest this is a notable topic, and not a hobbyist's page full of BLP and MOS violations. NOTWEBHOST
(diff). The nominator didn't assert that the subject isn't notable, and didn't adequately quote or transmit Drmies's original rationale, so a serious deletion argument was not included in the nomination; it was buried somewhere in the middle of the discussion. Drmies, who only appeared after the fact, and was induced to make a wide range of rebuttals (assigning to himself a querulous and unappealing persona in the dispute, which would portend that he would not get outside support), was opposed by multiple editors preselected from the existing dispute amplified by motorsport-interested editors, who were able to frontload the keep case. His concerns were not seriously responded to. The thread below his comments ended with how the subject of the article titled "Ferrari Challenge" is primarily various cars (I mean... maybe, but, something is obviously deeply off there).In these circumstances, uninvolved potential participats were not presented with a clear deletion case, so such a nomination was predestined not to lead to a consensus to delete/redirect. AfD is not cleanup but also AfD is not a mechanism to conciliate parties who are edit warring. What I read as the closer seeing the true nature of this discussion as a botched AfD that is unable to sufficiently explore relevant outcomes, due to the flawed nomination, and the surrounding circumstances, he closed procedurally refusing to recognize the outcome as a real, well-formed, consensus to keep. The implications of a discussion defaulting to keep due to no consensus or a procedural close, and it being kept per a finding of consensus are maybe not ultra-important but they're real enough to warrant a distinction; a "keep" outcome does providesome level of protection against AfD renomination and a vindication of the article in the state it is in
. That's at least how interpret this close, maybe I'm inserting too much. —Alalch E. 18:55, 4 February 2023 (UTC)- I think there is validity to what you are saying about there being issues with the nomination (I don't agree with there being an issue with nominating an article at AFD after a BLAR edit war, that is what is recommended at WP:BLAR) but note that the closing statement doesn't mention any issues with the nomination. A7V2 (talk) 19:51, 4 February 2023 (UTC)
- BLAR isn't "an AfD must be started urgently by the first person to notice there's a disagreement". Under BLAR, Drmies could have nominated with his fully laid out case, which would have been more like a normal AfD dynamic. Maybe he would't have started an AfD at all, and tried discussing or doing whatever other than redirecting again, including giving up. All of that is BLAR. We could have had a normal AfD (great), or no AfD (great), but what we got is a botched AfD that was fated to create an aberration in the record of decision making (not great). A procedural nomination is when the issue is kind of undefined, there is no great force behind a particular proposal, so the venue can be essentially repurposed to attract participation and explore possibilities. Here, the issue was defined, and there was a lot of force on both sides. This "procedural nomination" was "Drmies is a respected admin and is probably right so I will take his case to AfD, while making a really opaque and weak nomination, and in doing so I will open the forum that will attract all of his numerically superior opponents, and then some, so that as many people as possible can formalize their opposition to his idea". Still, you're right that the closer doesn't mention issues with the nomination. Should it turn out that I'm overreaching, I will strike certain parts of my comment; my thought process is that it's possible to reconcile this outcome with the deletion process guideline. —Alalch E. 20:38, 4 February 2023 (UTC)
- I feel like if you (or anyone else) had closed it as a "procedural close" giving a justification similar to what you've said above, then this deletion review would not have been started. The existing close is most problematic to me since it reads as a WP:SUPERVOTE and a complaint about the article, rather than an interpretation of the discussion. The only real comment made about the discussion (apart from "there is clearly no consensus below to delete") is "the commentary around this article needing to be just about blown up and started again have not been sufficiently disproven", and I don't really see how this could be satisfied: there are no copyright, advocacy etc issues with the article (or at least none were raised), and some edits were made improving the article (not enough, but a start), so what more can be done to "disprove" the claim that this needs to be blown up? Ultimately such a close has just left a sour taste in the mouth as the whole thing feels like two admins effectively discounting the views of several "regular" editors. A7V2 (talk) 23:39, 4 February 2023 (UTC)
- Both your opening and closing sentences hit the nail on the head, A7V2. The closer dismissing my concerns after I was cursed at by Drmies (who, for full disclosure, has blocked me in the past) has also left an incredibly sour taste in my mouth. - "Ghost of Dan Gurney" (work / talk) 03:52, 5 February 2023 (UTC)
- Look, GhostOfDanGurney, I let the first time slide, but you're mischaracterizing What Drmies said here--and that's the only thing I see that looks relevant to your statements above and in the original DRV appeal. Both scatalogical references are directed to the sources, not towards yourself. Trying to inappropriately paint yourself as an aggrieved party here is not a good look. Jclemens (talk) 04:18, 5 February 2023 (UTC)
- Factually, Jclemens, he used profanity in a message towards me. I'm not at all concerned by whether he called the sources shit or myself shit. The overall tone of the message was not at all needed and is an extension of his behaviour throughout this ordeal and has been referenced to by several editors both in the AfD and here at DRV. - "Ghost of Dan Gurney" (work / talk) 04:32, 5 February 2023 (UTC)
- Factually, GhostOfDanGurney, he did not use profanity towards you, so your opening statement was a lie. Phil Bridger (talk) 08:43, 5 February 2023 (UTC)
GhostOfDanGurney, those sources are shit and you know it. A couple of websites, a few enthusiasts, and a shitload of little hobbyists' factoids...
- Are you really arguing semantics here? And using that to call me a liar? - "Ghost of Dan Gurney" (work / talk) 14:28, 5 February 2023 (UTC)
- Of course I'm arguing semantics. Sentences have a meaning, which is what semantics is about, and those mean that he was calling the sources "shit". Nothing towards you at all. Phil Bridger (talk) 18:21, 5 February 2023 (UTC)
- Factually, GhostOfDanGurney, he did not use profanity towards you, so your opening statement was a lie. Phil Bridger (talk) 08:43, 5 February 2023 (UTC)
- Factually, Jclemens, he used profanity in a message towards me. I'm not at all concerned by whether he called the sources shit or myself shit. The overall tone of the message was not at all needed and is an extension of his behaviour throughout this ordeal and has been referenced to by several editors both in the AfD and here at DRV. - "Ghost of Dan Gurney" (work / talk) 04:32, 5 February 2023 (UTC)
- Look, GhostOfDanGurney, I let the first time slide, but you're mischaracterizing What Drmies said here--and that's the only thing I see that looks relevant to your statements above and in the original DRV appeal. Both scatalogical references are directed to the sources, not towards yourself. Trying to inappropriately paint yourself as an aggrieved party here is not a good look. Jclemens (talk) 04:18, 5 February 2023 (UTC)
- Both your opening and closing sentences hit the nail on the head, A7V2. The closer dismissing my concerns after I was cursed at by Drmies (who, for full disclosure, has blocked me in the past) has also left an incredibly sour taste in my mouth. - "Ghost of Dan Gurney" (work / talk) 03:52, 5 February 2023 (UTC)
- I feel like if you (or anyone else) had closed it as a "procedural close" giving a justification similar to what you've said above, then this deletion review would not have been started. The existing close is most problematic to me since it reads as a WP:SUPERVOTE and a complaint about the article, rather than an interpretation of the discussion. The only real comment made about the discussion (apart from "there is clearly no consensus below to delete") is "the commentary around this article needing to be just about blown up and started again have not been sufficiently disproven", and I don't really see how this could be satisfied: there are no copyright, advocacy etc issues with the article (or at least none were raised), and some edits were made improving the article (not enough, but a start), so what more can be done to "disprove" the claim that this needs to be blown up? Ultimately such a close has just left a sour taste in the mouth as the whole thing feels like two admins effectively discounting the views of several "regular" editors. A7V2 (talk) 23:39, 4 February 2023 (UTC)
- BLAR isn't "an AfD must be started urgently by the first person to notice there's a disagreement". Under BLAR, Drmies could have nominated with his fully laid out case, which would have been more like a normal AfD dynamic. Maybe he would't have started an AfD at all, and tried discussing or doing whatever other than redirecting again, including giving up. All of that is BLAR. We could have had a normal AfD (great), or no AfD (great), but what we got is a botched AfD that was fated to create an aberration in the record of decision making (not great). A procedural nomination is when the issue is kind of undefined, there is no great force behind a particular proposal, so the venue can be essentially repurposed to attract participation and explore possibilities. Here, the issue was defined, and there was a lot of force on both sides. This "procedural nomination" was "Drmies is a respected admin and is probably right so I will take his case to AfD, while making a really opaque and weak nomination, and in doing so I will open the forum that will attract all of his numerically superior opponents, and then some, so that as many people as possible can formalize their opposition to his idea". Still, you're right that the closer doesn't mention issues with the nomination. Should it turn out that I'm overreaching, I will strike certain parts of my comment; my thought process is that it's possible to reconcile this outcome with the deletion process guideline. —Alalch E. 20:38, 4 February 2023 (UTC)
- I think there is validity to what you are saying about there being issues with the nomination (I don't agree with there being an issue with nominating an article at AFD after a BLAR edit war, that is what is recommended at WP:BLAR) but note that the closing statement doesn't mention any issues with the nomination. A7V2 (talk) 19:51, 4 February 2023 (UTC)
- Why are we still discussing whether the result of a deletion discussion about an article that was kept should be overturned to "keep"? Phil Bridger (talk) 08:43, 5 February 2023 (UTC)
- Endorse per WP:PROCEDURALCLOSE - invalid nomination, and then a discussion mostly involving people talking past each other. When sources were challenged, the discussion became personal instead of discussing the merits of the sources. For what it's worth I think the sources show GNG. The discussion seems to be bent on being "right" rather than the improvement of the encyclopedia. This discussion is a waste of volunteer time, the result was keep, the rationale for the uncommon close is solid, and fair to all parties. The discussion about the excremental language is a red herring, it took place after the close. It was also directed at the sources, not the editor. That said, I can't think of an instance where using profanity in a contentious discussion de-escalates. But it was certainly not a personal attack, and this is the wrong forum if it were. 78.26 (spin me / revolutions) 15:23, 5 February 2023 (UTC)
- Overturn to keep. The question is whether it was “keep” or “speedy keep” due to no valid deletion reason being advanced by the AfD nominator. —SmokeyJoe (talk) 21:34, 5 February 2023 (UTC)
1 February 2023
747 Uppingham–Leicester
Firstly the rationale Non-notable bus route with no significant history to make it worth retaining.
is flawed as it asserts the route is not notable but doesn't explain why. Worth retaining
is a strange comment as there's no size limit to Wikipedia. We don't have to pick and choose what to "retain".
I put forward a source assessment table that demonstrates that the article passed WP:GNG.
The delete voters largely use terms like "run-of-the-mill" and "routine" but fail to cite any policies or guidelines. Some mistakenly cite WP:ROUTINE which is inappropriate as it refers to events. Then there is the mistake that "local" coverage is not valid, it absolutely is. GNG does not exclude local coverage.
Terms like "non-enclyclopedic" and "interesting" were used which are just opinions and WP:IDONTLIKEIT. While WP:IAR exists, one must put forward an argument for how deleting content improves Wikipedia, and nobody did.
Overturn to keep or no consensus. Garuda3 (talk) 19:02, 1 February 2023 (UTC)
- Overturn to merge to Uppingham#Buses (or any other target suggested, I think this was the best one presented in the AFD). Or relist to see if consensus on a merge target can be achieved. The keep and merge votes demonstrated there is some notability, even if not enough for a standalone article. None of the delete votes stated an opposition to merging. Frank Anchor 21:15, 1 February 2023 (UTC)
- Frank Anchor, like I said in the closing statement, I've got absolutely no objection to facilitating a merge, if some consensus can be developed on whether such a merge could happen and where it ought to go. Seraphimblade Talk to me 07:26, 2 February 2023 (UTC)
- Your closing statement was a very good assessment of the discussion. However, it is far more likely that such a continued discussion to gain consensus on a potential merge target would occur if there is a venue for the discussion, such as a relisted AFD, the article's talk page, or the talk page of the merge target (and restored history would make it easier to facilitate this discussion). Frank Anchor 13:28, 2 February 2023 (UTC)
- Frank Anchor, like I said in the closing statement, I've got absolutely no objection to facilitating a merge, if some consensus can be developed on whether such a merge could happen and where it ought to go. Seraphimblade Talk to me 07:26, 2 February 2023 (UTC)
- Endorse. As per the AfD outcome. GNG was deemed to have not been met by a number of contributors (except the article creator themselves), even when closely analysing the sources' reliability and depth of coverage. Ajf773 (talk) 10:20, 2 February 2023 (UTC)
- Endorse. Most participants did not agree that the four near-identical items of news coverage of how the local government decided to keep funding the bus service for another year, which is coverage of an event, presents significant coverage of the subject, and so deletion gained significantly more support; merger ideas did not provide clarity on how the target article would benefit from the added content. Later !votes were exclusively to delete which means that the closer was reasonable to believe that further relisting would not produce more clarity regarding merging. —Alalch E. 15:32, 2 February 2023 (UTC)
- Endorse it's entirely reasonable for the participants to decide that a few fairly short pieces in UK local newspapers (which are of dubious reliability) covering the same funding announcement bu the local council isn't strong evidence of notability. I'm sure it can be restored if there is a concrete merge proposal, but the people supporting a merge either didn't suggest a target at all or suggested adding a list of bus routes in the article about the settlement, which would be an odd thing to do. Hut 8.5 18:45, 2 February 2023 (UTC)
- Endorse as a reasonable conclusion by the closer. DRV is not a re-argument of the AFD. Robert McClenon (talk) 01:51, 3 February 2023 (UTC)
- Endorse (involved). Your arguments lost, Garuda3. DRV is not an appeals court, and it has been repeatedly explained to you why this article did not meet GNG (and it is being explained again here). This is just a generic statement of extreme inclusionist beliefs without any real attempt to prove the close was in error. You don't have to agree, but you do have to respect consensus. You can't just claim 4 local publications posting essentially the exact same story counts as a GNG pass and expect everyone to accept it. Trainsandotherthings (talk) 03:35, 3 February 2023 (UTC)
- Comment - I respectfully disagree with User:Trainsandotherthings as to the analogy, and agree as to the result. DRV is an appeals court. An appeal is an argument that the judge made a reversible error, not a request for a new trial. The closer did not make a reversible error. Robert McClenon (talk) 04:38, 4 February 2023 (UTC)
- I stand by my comments. An appeals court involves a rehashing/retrial of the issue. Trainsandotherthings (talk) 04:38, 5 February 2023 (UTC)
- Comment - I respectfully disagree with User:Trainsandotherthings as to the analogy, and agree as to the result. DRV is an appeals court. An appeal is an argument that the judge made a reversible error, not a request for a new trial. The closer did not make a reversible error. Robert McClenon (talk) 04:38, 4 February 2023 (UTC)
- Endorse. DRV is not AFD round 2. Stifle (talk) 15:56, 3 February 2023 (UTC)
29 January 2023
Abhaya Sahu
Delete rushed through, without any broader participation, with some boilerplate arguements about lack of notability coverage. The notion that Times of India (3 largest newspaper in India, 1.5 million daily readers) could not be used as indicator of notability is ridiculous (whether TOI is reputable source for factual claims is another issue altogether). Checking available materials,
very long list of references (refactored by —Alalch E. 17:03, 30 January 2023 (UTC))
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Ping Liz. --Soman (talk) 18:12, 29 January 2023 (UTC)
- Comment - The Delete was not rushed through; it ran for the full seven days. The above URL Dump is too long. Robert McClenon (talk) 05:34, 30 January 2023 (UTC)
- Endorse if this is an appeal of the close. The close was the only possible close, as there was no reason to relist. However, the deletion discussion focused on political notability, and the appellant appears to be saying that the subject satisfies general notability. Robert McClenon (talk) 05:34, 30 January 2023 (UTC)
- Allow Review of Draft to establish general notability as if the deletion had been a Soft Delete, because GNG was not discussed. Robert McClenon (talk) 05:34, 30 January 2023 (UTC)
- Endorse correct interpretation of a unanimous vote for delete. However no objection to recreation with the above references, subject to its own AFD. Frank Anchor 13:19, 30 January 2023 (UTC)
- Endorse, allow draft. This person may or may not be notable, but that was the AfD's job, and now DRV's job is to review the AFD closure, which was the only interpretation of 2 delete !votes. Clyde!Franklin! 23:48, 30 January 2023 (UTC)
- Relist Looking at the massive list of sources is not hugely useful because there are just too many. If you can't meet WP:N with the best 3 or 4, you can't meet WP:N with a wall of them. That said, the discussion didn't really discuss the sources and the level of participation, combined with the quality of the discussion, probably puts it as a WP:SOFTDELETE. That said, please be sure to indicate the 3 or 4 sources you think are best at meeting WP:N even if you list the rest in a collapsed box at the AfD. Hobit (talk) 10:32, 31 January 2023 (UTC)
- Relist while it's a low level of participation, on the face of it, crosses the threshold for delete. However, the nomination actually contains no policy/guideline based reason for deletion. Not satisfying NPOL is not grounds for deletion (or retention), it is simply an indication that presumed notability cannot be accorded. Furthermore, the nominee and one of the participants have a history of tag-teaming and canvassing at AfD [1]. Given all this, while one could possibly argue proceedural keep, there's one delete contribution that makes a policy/guideline-based argument. Therefore, I would give less than normal weight to the nomination and the other contribution and would seek more input. Regards, --Goldsztajn (talk) 11:35, 31 January 2023 (UTC)
- The AfD nomination was brief, but an unelected politician who fails NPOL is certainly a reason to delete (or Draftify) and this is a common outcome. Election candidates are frequently the subject of promotion, quite understandably, and the sources are usually promotional, non independent, on can be native advertising that is aggressively rejected by Wikipedia.
- Warn the tag teamers that tag teaming is WP:GAMING and could result in them being sanctioned, however, to make a case to sanction them you need to show a more egregious case of deletionism. Ideally, anyone invited to a discussion should declare their invitation. SmokeyJoe (talk) 00:57, 2 February 2023 (UTC)
- Endorse The comment by M.Ashraf333 in the deletion discussion addresses the quality of the sourcing, "Nothing about him in reliable sources." There was no controversy in the discussion, the comments were based on policy (yes, saying a subject does not meet NPOL is a policy-based statement), and the participation was sufficient. No error in this close. --Enos733 (talk) 16:19, 31 January 2023 (UTC)
- Yes, saying a subject does not meet NPOL is a guideline-based statement, just one that has, per se, no bearing on deletion. Regards, Goldsztajn (talk) 19:20, 31 January 2023 (UTC)
- Have you carefully read WP:DEL-REASON#8? Notability guidelines require subjective interpretation appropriate to guideline status, but on making the connection of the appropriate notability guideline, it is pseudo-policy by virtue of explicit inclusion as a reason in WP:Deletion policy. SmokeyJoe (talk) 01:02, 2 February 2023 (UTC)
- NPOL (with NPROF) stands in distinction in that it accords *presumed* notability when satisfied, it's not derived from the GNG and therefore failure to satisfy cannot be seen as analogous to failing the GNG and implying a lack of general notability. Regards, Goldsztajn (talk) 10:22, 2 February 2023 (UTC)
- I would not disagree with the point made here, but many people use "Fails NPOL", "Fails NPROF", or "Fails NSPORT" as shorthand for both failing the SNG and GNG. I think the argument should be discounted only when another person does suggest that GNG is (or might be) met. - Enos733 (talk) 16:31, 2 February 2023 (UTC)
- “Presumed” notability evaporates when the article is nominated at AfD. Presumed notability is a good threshold for starting articles, but by sending to AfD someone has formally challenged that assumption and article proponents have to do better than point to the presumption threshold. Ideally, AfD nominators should address the GNG, but in the absence of any comments on the GNG, the failing of a subguideline is a reason to delete. SmokeyJoe (talk) 22:47, 3 February 2023 (UTC)
- NPOL (with NPROF) stands in distinction in that it accords *presumed* notability when satisfied, it's not derived from the GNG and therefore failure to satisfy cannot be seen as analogous to failing the GNG and implying a lack of general notability. Regards, Goldsztajn (talk) 10:22, 2 February 2023 (UTC)
- Have you carefully read WP:DEL-REASON#8? Notability guidelines require subjective interpretation appropriate to guideline status, but on making the connection of the appropriate notability guideline, it is pseudo-policy by virtue of explicit inclusion as a reason in WP:Deletion policy. SmokeyJoe (talk) 01:02, 2 February 2023 (UTC)
- Yes, saying a subject does not meet NPOL is a guideline-based statement, just one that has, per se, no bearing on deletion. Regards, Goldsztajn (talk) 19:20, 31 January 2023 (UTC)
- Endorse, but Draftify given the long list of references. Endorse the AfD close as appropriate. To contest such a deletion, use draftspace and follow the advice at WP:THREE, and submit through AfC and/or ask the deleting admin. This need not take long, it can all happen in a day. DO NOT present dozens of references. If the best three are not good enough, there is virtually no chance that the rest will be better, and it is unreasonable to ask an independent editor to review dozens of references. —SmokeyJoe (talk) 00:49, 2 February 2023 (UTC)
28 January 2023
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Discussion was closed by the non-admin user Vecihi91 as keep just after one day run. Although the number of votes are keep but my concern is, the closing of AfD as a non-admin and as well as before the time. @Sportsfan_1234 (talk), please leave your input here for this closing. M.Ashraf333 (talk) 15:54, 28 January 2023 (UTC)
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Discussion was closed by the nominator as speedy keep as they had withdrawn their nomination, however there had already been one delete !vote (mine) so the discussion should have been left to run its course. Curb Safe Charmer (talk) 15:03, 28 January 2023 (UTC)
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Closer (non-admin) !voted the same way in Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Ruel Redinger, Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Stan Robb, Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Sam Babcock, Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Marv Smith, Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/John Comer (American football), Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Willie Flattery, and Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Ja'Quan McMillian. Closed after less than four hours, he was voted Second-team all-pro by Collyer's Eye, I'd like to see what others have to say on this before the nomination closes. I'm not opposed to keeping but the discussion seemed cut a bit short. That's his only real claim to notability so far. Also now that there's no NFL NSPORTS guidelines anymore, so he has to have had SIGCOV, which is still lacking. Therapyisgood (talk) 05:57, 28 January 2023 (UTC)
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Years-old redirects should not be speedy deleted per G6, but instead brought to RfD if they are thought to be incorrect. * Pppery * it has begun... 00:33, 28 January 2023 (UTC)
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25 January 2023
Marta Grigorieva (closed)
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The person is not little-known, and the article is not advertising. Exhibited on the websites: https://www.artprice.com/artist/521635/marta-grigorieva https://www.artnet.com/artists/marta-grigorieva/ Published in articles: https://www.visitmonaco.com/en/news/25222/marta-grigorieva-exhibition-at-the-columbus-monaco https://www.lexisnexis.co.uk/legal/experts/1858 https://monacolife.net/women-in-monaco-marta-grigorieva/ Published in the magazine: https://viewer.joomag.com/eng-monaco-issue-16/0427110001545753193?page=170 She has her own book: https://www.amazon.fr/Marta-Grigorieva/e/B085CM9JYK?ref=dbs_a_mng_rwt_scns_share Listed on the site: https://www.askart.com/artist/Marta_Grigorieva/11201845/Marta_Grigorieva.aspx Jhin435 (talk) 13:07, 25 January 2023 (UTC)
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Badnaseeb
I think that this closure incorrectly assessed the discussion, wherein keep !voters failed to substantiate any of their claims regarding the depth of coverage available. That this is a subject which has been previously deleted at AfD is a further reason to consider "no consensus-keep" a poor outcome. Beyond that concern, it's an example of WP:BADNAC cases 2 and 4, as a close-call closure in a discussion that could result in a non-actionable result for a non-admin. I raised my concern with Superastig on their talk page, to which they responded I know that the "keep" votes are weak, but they still have merit whatsoever. And I don't see enough consensus for it to be deleted or redirected either. Therefore, I don't see a reason for me to revert my closure.
signed, Rosguill talk 02:50, 25 January 2023 (UTC)
- Endorse the no consensus closure as after three weeks of discussion there clearly was not consensus to delete or redirect. However, WP:TROUT User:Superastig for performing a NAC as those should be reserved for cases in which consensus is more obvious. Frank Anchor 03:33, 25 January 2023 (UTC)
- Overturn to redirect. This is a case where there's enough of a strength-of-argument disparity to overcome the split in numbers, in my view. The delete/redirect !votes made specific arguments that the available sources didn't meet the GNG for specific guideline-based reasons (reliability, depth of coverage, etc.), while the keep !votes didn't rebut those arguments and just asserted with minimal reasoning that the sources were sufficient. (Tellingly, questions like "
what do you feel are the top three sources in the article that have significant coverage of the show and are not interview pieces?
" and "Could you identify precisely which sources you believe add up to meeting GNG?
" went unanswered.) Consensus isn't a vote, and "unsubstantiated personal opinion[s]" about the sourcing don't outweigh well-argued, guideline-based !votes. (I'd feel the same way if the roles were reversed: if the keep !voters presented sources and explained why they meet the GNG while the delete !voters said nothing more than "delete; fails WP:GNG", the proper closure would be keep regardless of the vote !count.) There's thus consensus against a stand-alone article, so redirect (as an unrebutted ATD) is the proper closure. And that's all without considering the BADNAC aspect of this, which I think is an independent reason to overturn the close. Extraordinary Writ (talk) 05:35, 25 January 2023 (UTC) - Overturn to Redirect - This would have been a dubious close by an admin. The closer refers, on their talk page, to the Keep !votes, and does not state how they weighed the IP votes. In my opinion, the IP votes should have been either discounted completely, or treated as one vote by one human behind the two IPs. Robert McClenon (talk) 06:41, 25 January 2023 (UTC)
- Endorse per
RosguillFrank Anchor. Anyone wishing to redirect the article would be welcome to do so as an normal editorial action. Stifle (talk) 09:25, 25 January 2023 (UTC) - weak endorse No keep really specified the best sources, only the nomination really discussed specific sources. I think this is a NC, but leaning toward delete pretty hard. I tend to be supportive of NACs, but this one is not a clear NC (yes, those exist). Given the closer is, if memory serves, very experienced at closing these things, I don't know that I'd overturn on the basis of being a NAC. But vague waves to the article's sources by the keep !votes aren't very convincing given the rest of the discussion. Hobit (talk) 18:05, 25 January 2023 (UTC)
- Overturn to redirect - I don't think this was a WP:BADNAC as the closer is experienced, a plain headcount of !votes does suggest no consensus, and the discussion had already been relisted twice. However, good policy-based arguments for deletion were made, and really were not refuted. Several editors provided a cursory review of the sources and generally agreed that they amounted to passing mentions, and that notability was not established. A new source was added during the discussion, however when evidence was provided casting doubt on its reliability, the keep !voters either did not respond or simply asserted its suitability without providing any evidence in its favour. The weight of policy is clearly with the delete !voters, however redirecting the title is preferable to deletion. Ivanvector (Talk/Edits) 18:41, 25 January 2023 (UTC)
- FWIW, regarding appeals to Superastig's experience as a closer, they have been warned against closing close or contentious AfDs when brought to DRV before (June 2021, November 2021, November 2022, and an ongoing discussion at January 2023). I'm not sure what the positive side of their unchallenged closes look like so I'm not trying to build consensus for a ban, but given that they seem to rarely engage with the actual DRV discussions, it seems that someone (I am obviously not an ideal messenger here) should have a word with them regarding when it's appropriate to NAC. signed, Rosguill talk 19:09, 25 January 2023 (UTC)
- Non-admin closers who continuously do BADNACs aren't helping themselves towards administrator tools. Jclemens (talk) 20:12, 25 January 2023 (UTC)
- I did a quick check of last couple of dozen closes and I think I have some level of objection to Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Fatih Mehmet Gul (none of the 'keep' arguments are doing much for me here) and Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Danish Association of Chartered Surveyors (per Liz's relist comment). Definitely need to sit down and read some more to work out where I actually sit on them. Daniel (talk) 22:50, 25 January 2023 (UTC)
- Non-admin closers who continuously do BADNACs aren't helping themselves towards administrator tools. Jclemens (talk) 20:12, 25 January 2023 (UTC)
- FWIW, regarding appeals to Superastig's experience as a closer, they have been warned against closing close or contentious AfDs when brought to DRV before (June 2021, November 2021, November 2022, and an ongoing discussion at January 2023). I'm not sure what the positive side of their unchallenged closes look like so I'm not trying to build consensus for a ban, but given that they seem to rarely engage with the actual DRV discussions, it seems that someone (I am obviously not an ideal messenger here) should have a word with them regarding when it's appropriate to NAC. signed, Rosguill talk 19:09, 25 January 2023 (UTC)
- Vacate to allow an administrator to close. Per WP:NACD, non-admins should not perform no consensus closes of AfDs; apparent "no consensus" situations are inherently "Close calls and controversial decisions". Another outcome may be preferable, but I don't think it's necessary to get into that here. —Alalch E. 20:14, 25 January 2023 (UTC)
- Overturn to Redirect per Extraordinary Writ's analysis. I am involved (I voted redirect), but from my involved point of view the keep votes are somewhat weaker in that the 2nd and 3rd keep votes are a bit vague, and are from IPs who have both only edited on a single article, List of programs broadcast by Hum TV (a related article that I proposed a redirect to). This might also be a controversial non-admin close that falls under WP:BADNAC criteria 2 (though I understand that is an essay). Thanks. VickKiang (talk) 21:13, 25 January 2023 (UTC)
- Comment WP:BADNAC doesn't say that NACs can't close AFDs as "No consensus" and it isn't uncommon in AFD-world for them to do so. So, while you might want to overturn this closure, it shouldn't be on the basis that NACs shouldn't close discussions as "No consensus". BADNAC warns against close calls but not all No consensus closures are close calls, sometimes it's the only sensible closure to make. Liz Read! Talk! 07:41, 29 January 2023 (UTC)
- Overturn & redirect. This was pretty even off headcount, but the delete !votes seem to have more merit, and redirecting is an ATD. Clyde!Franklin! 23:43, 30 January 2023 (UTC)
- Overturn / Redirect The keep arguments are generally weak and fail to respond to the far stronger counter arguments and source analysis presented by the delete/redirect proponents. Regards, --Goldsztajn (talk) 10:53, 31 January 2023 (UTC)
- Endorse per Frank's and Hobit's argument. I agree with the closer that the keep !votes do have merit as the delete !votes. So it's unfair if they should be discarded. However, the NC isn't that clear for a lot of editors. So the closer needs some explanation to carry his closure. SBKSPP (talk) 01:00, 1 February 2023 (UTC)
- Overturn/redirect a patently poor NAC. 2 out of the 3 keep !votes are unsigned comments by Pakistan IPs with total article overlap and should have been discounted entirely as obvious socking. The sole other keep !vote (from an editor who has made the exact same types of edits to the exact same page the IPs edited...) vaguely claims to have added refs that were "not merely passing mentions or brief paragraphs" but does not explain how they count towards GNG and did not address the comments demonstrating several of the sources they added were not RS. Meanwhile, the delete/redirect !votes made P&G-based arguments and actively engaged with specific sources. This was an easy redirect close and probably should have resulted in an SPI. JoelleJay (talk) 02:56, 5 February 2023 (UTC)
24 January 2023
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A couple of months ago, I created in my user draft a lengthy and well-sourced article on the late rapper Speaker Knockerz using sources deemed reliable by the community (see WP:MUSIC/SOURCE). 8 years prior to the creation of my version of the article, a poorly sourced article on Speaker Knockerz was published and went through an article for deletion nomination where the topic was deemed non-notable and consequently resulted in its associated article being deleted and salted. Seeing as the page was previously salted against creation, I made a request to remove the protection on the title so that the article could be created. An administrator fulfilled my request and a couple of months later, a contributor opened a second article for deletion claiming that my article was an identical version of the 8-year-old article and requesting its deletion. An administrator found the contributor's words sufficient and closed the discussion a mere 6 minutes after it was opened failing to look further and leave room for debate. My version of the article was not only far from an identical copy of the deleted version but also automatically rated as B-class with information coming from numerous well-known sources. Although he might not have been Wikipedia standard notable at the time of his passing, Speaker Knockerz's legacy was solidified post-humously with him now being known as an influential figure of modern trap, being cited as an influence to numerous prominent modern-day rappers, and even being the subject of a musical tribute by Kevin Gates which landed on the Billboard 100. I find it extremely disappointing to see my hours of research in order to document the rapper's legacy erased in such a rushed and careless manner. Célestin Denis (talk) 18:29, 24 January 2023 (UTC)
Robert McClenon (talk) 06:17, 25 January 2023 (UTC)
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Following the AFD discussion,Chagropango (talk) hinged her argument on the reliability of PulseNG as a valid source of information, and stated expressly that it is a pass if PulseNG is credible. We editors on Wikipedia are known to be researchers, so I'd kindly request 1) the jury looks into accuracy of content from PulseNG, 2) Check for other sources if the information stated in PulseNG exists elsewhere. For the record, PulseNG is the most authoritative source of entertainment news in Nigeria. This information should kindly be researched and confirmed/debunked. DOOMSDAYER520(TALK|CONTRIBS) admits he 'comes close' to notability and said he needed more coverage, and the article may be an a promotion attempt. I disagree for the following reasons; 1) the article did not have promotional content to it, and no other reviewer seconded a motion that it was promotional. 2) It was speedy deleted and I challenged successfully for a review of the content before it was re-instated. Furthermore, if the article comes close to being notable and needs more coverage, does it not imply obliterating the article is not doing justice to our goal of curating and serving encyclopedic information, especially with developing pages on Wikipedia? If it was a stub and given some time for upgrade like the many others we currently have on Wikipedia? Thirdly, the page obviously had a bad history I was not aware of; I feel strongly that influenced this decision to delete this page. Finally, I recommend the draft page be made available so it can be further developed. Thank you. Pshegs (talk) 12:52, 24 January 2023 (UTC)
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