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September 27

What is meant by 'ancient Ford' in this sentence?

".. In an ancient Ford, the evening of Aug. 14, they began their slow, solemn progress to Nehru's house. .." -Ref: Time, dated Monday, Aug. 25, 1947

1) What is meant by 'ancient Ford' in this sentence? Is it talking about any vintage car or euphemism for something else?

2) If a vintage car, then whose that car may have been? Bookku (talk) 06:34, 27 September 2023 (UTC)

Apart from the existence of the capital letter on the word, I would have suggested it was an ancient river crossing that was intended. That would have seemed more symbolic. HiLo48 (talk) 07:21, 27 September 2023 (UTC)

Ford is a car manufacturer. "In an ancient Ford" here clearly refers to a old Ford car, not necessarily vintage, which has a specific meaning. Nobody can determine the owner from the information you've provided. Shantavira|^{feed me} 08:21, 27 September 2023 (UTC)

According to this article, Mahatma Gandhi owned a very old Ford Model T which is still in existence. Not the one in the OP's article though. Alansplodge (talk) 13:06, 27 September 2023 (UTC)

In 1947 there would not have been many cars in Delhi freedom seekers would have had easy access to. I came across Gandhi's correspondence in 1920s with one industrial family Sarabhai family to support volunteers with a their Ford car where required. So that seems to be one of the clue which can be looked into. As such Gandhi's things are well documented. Whether then Tamil politicians C. Rajagopalachari P. Subbarayan facilitated access to the car. Bookku (talk) 06:53, 28 September 2023 (UTC)

Unfindable source

I remember years ago reading a news that told of two Bangladeshi families who for years had been competing over the management of a few hectares of land and who in 1986, to put an end to the dispute, married the few-month-old children of both families. Can anything still be found? The news seems to have disappeared from the internet... 2001:B07:6442:8903:84AC:2BA0:FCB4:A657 (talk) 08:39, 27 September 2023 (UTC)

Arthur Adam and Erich Kretz (July 20 plot)

Can you search for their birth and death? Thank you very much. -- 10:48, 27 September 2023 79.20.12.89

Orig. posted by 193.207.201.125.

Have you search for that? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.207.139.238 (talk) 17:40, 28 September 2023 (UTC)

I looked in Findagrave and didn't find anything for either guy. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 19:04, 28 September 2023 (UTC)

Can you search elsewhere? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.207.139.238 (talk) 20:55, 28 September 2023 (UTC)

To avoid redundant work, please tell us where you've already searched. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 22:30, 28 September 2023 (UTC)

I don't have searched yet, then can you do it for me? Thank you. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.58.208.39 (talk) 12:08, 1 October 2023 (UTC)

If you were to do the searching yourself, where would you search? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 11:58, 2 October 2023 (UTC)

Painting

About this painting, can you find info about the life and death of that man and his wife? Thank you. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.20.12.89 (talk) 13:57, 27 September 2023 (UTC)

François Godefroy b. Rouen 1743, d. Paris 1819. Jean Michel Moreau le Jeune b. Paris 1741, d. Paris 1814. Biographical details at [1]. 2A02:C7B:113:1E00:8EC:E016:111:57CE (talk) 14:46, 27 September 2023 (UTC)

Not the authors, but the man and his wife helped by Marie Antoinette. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.207.201.125 (talk) 14:49, 27 September 2023 (UTC)

The English version of that link may be helpful [2]. 2A02:C7B:113:1E00:8EC:E016:111:57CE (talk) 15:10, 27 September 2023 (UTC)

The English version doesn't explain it. Can you search elsewhere? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.207.176.73 (talk) 15:36, 27 September 2023 (UTC)

Maybe that other version might help? --Askedonty (talk) 15:54, 27 September 2023 (UTC)

If you mean Pierre Grimpier and his wife, you're unlikely to find out much. According to the text, he was a vintner (a wine-maker) who was injured during a deer hunt and did not leave a trace in history except for this episode. It seems that the royal physician's intervention saved his life, otherwise the text would have likely mentioned his death, but even that is not clearly documented. According to the Drouot auction site, the anecdote was relayed by Florimond Claude, Comte de Mercy-Argenteau to Empress Maria Theresa, who was Marie-Antoinette's mother (Florimond was the one who had negotiated Marie-Antoinette's marriage to the future King Louis XVI, so he was close to both families). Moreover, the incident was largely publicized at the time, as it portrayed the future queen as a compassionate and generous woman (hence the engraving recounting the incident). Xuxl (talk) 16:06, 27 September 2023 (UTC)

Also, it is not a painting but an engraving, which means there were likely many copies printed and distributed or sold. At the time, this was a common practice to commemorate events deemed important or revelatory. Xuxl (talk) 16:11, 27 September 2023 (UTC)

September 29

Comeback cases

[3] about US federal appellate litigation, mentions:

... outliers that might skew the results, such as expedited cases or comeback cases that might require some of the original panel.

I've found a few other web hits about comeback cases. It seems to mean that a case gets appealed, the appellate court decides something and remands to the district court, there is a new decision by the district court and that gets appealed, so the case is back for a second visit to the same appellate court. But I'm not sure.

The disamb page Comeback doesn't say anything about this usage, and neither does Wiktionary.

Does anyone want to try to fix it? Thanks.

2601:644:8501:AAF0:0:0:0:86EA (talk) 07:00, 29 September 2023 (UTC)

I think the term is not reserved for court cases but can be used in any context where issues coming in, needing some action or decision, are referred to as "cases", Then a case handled before, coming back for further action or reconsideration, may be called a "comeback case".  --Lambiam 06:06, 30 September 2023 (UTC)

As a practicing American lawyer, I had never heard of a comeback case. From context, it appeared to mean an appellate case that, following a decision by a three-judge panel, for some reason is heard again by the same or a largely similar panel. As it turns out, that is essentially correct. It is a term of art in the United States Court of Appeals for the Ninth Circuit, where comeback cases are governed by General Order 3.6. John M Baker (talk) 04:31, 1 October 2023 (UTC)

Wow, thanks both. John M Baker, nice find. That explains why all the web search hits that I found were from the 9th circuit. 2601:644:8501:AAF0:0:0:0:86EA (talk) 21:53, 1 October 2023 (UTC)

Certain cases in UK/Ireland

I wish to get a list of cases in United Kingdom — from 1910 to 1920 — that employed the precipitin test as a medico-legal procedure. What is an easy way to go about it — is there some grand-database where I can search for the keyword? I did read this book (p. 60 onward) which notes the test to be pretty established by the late 1920s. TrangaBellam (talk) 11:48, 29 September 2023 (UTC)

Royal Prerogative (UK) — Military Powers

Does the British sovereign have to directly issue orders to the military (on the advice of the Prime Minister)? Or is the Prime Minister given some kind of ongoing authority to issue military orders?

It seems in a crisis, it might be timeconsuming if the PM wanted to quickly have the military do something, but first they had to get hold of the King to issue the official orders. 2407:4D00:3C00:7E66:F130:43AD:7C5D:9FEF (talk) 14:54, 29 September 2023 (UTC)

I believe that the British monarch is not directly involved in military operations. Any residual reserve powers in that area were, as I understand it, delegated to the Defence Council of the United Kingdom by the Defence (Transfer of Functions) Act 1964. Political oversight of the Defence Council is by the National Security Council.

A proclamation from the monarch is required to "call-out" (i.e. mobilise) the Volunteer Reserves, if:

(a) if it appears to Her [sic] that national danger is imminent or that a great emergency has arisen; or

(b) in the event of an actual or apprehended attack on the United Kingdom. [4]

However, in the case of lesser conflicts, the Secretary of State for Defence can call-out those who have accepted a "special agreement" making them liable for up to 12 months of active service if required. [5] Alansplodge (talk) 21:43, 29 September 2023 (UTC)

Sankebetsu brown bear incident

The village head that year was Ōkawa Yosakichi. According to his third son Japanese page, he was already died in 1946. Can you find his birth and death's dates, his wife, his other children, and when he began his career? Thank you. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.207.116.93 (talk) 14:58, 29 September 2023 (UTC)

September 30

Japanese magazine 1915

Colorized poster. The man below in the left is Emperor Taisho, but who are the woman in kimono and the military below in the right? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.207.144.17 (talk • contribs) 12:00, 30 September 2023 (UTC)

The chap on the right looks very similar to Hara Takashi who led the Rikken Seiyūkai party in the Imperial Diet (it may be the same photograph which is used at the top of our article) and became prime minister in 1918. If so, the uniform is not military but court dress. Alansplodge (talk) 13:49, 30 September 2023 (UTC)

And the woman in kimono? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.58.208.39 (talk) 12:04, 1 October 2023 (UTC)

Unless anybody else knows better, see cover girl. Alansplodge (talk) 12:27, 1 October 2023 (UTC)

October 1

Sumptuary excess in Norse Greenland

Something like 15 or 20 years ago, I ran into an argument in a book that part of the economic downfall of the Norse colonies in Greenland was believed to have been excessive spending on impractical luxury goods from Europe, including fancy clothing that was not suited for the climate, and which ate into their profits from walrus ivory (their main export), a trade which was already under stress due to European imports of walrus ivory from Russia and elephant ivory from Africa. But I can't remember what it was I was reading (much less what sourcing it was based on). I do remember ploughing through Mark Kurlansky's Cod and Salt back-to-back around the same time, and both did touch on the Norse and what they were up to in the Arctic Sea. Anyway, I'm wondering if there's readily accessible material on this, perhaps in journals I'm not familiar with. If there's evidence for it, I think it might relate at least peripherally to other material I've seen about sumptuary excess in Scandinavia and even in the pre-modern Scottish Highlands (which were strongly Norse-influenced), with west-to-central continentental European fashion having a strong influence and market in the north, earlier than people would probably typically think. Also reminds me of a hypothesis I encountered in another work that part of the downfall of the Roman empire was excessive, "addictive" consumption of luxury goods from Asia.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  15:10, 1 October 2023 (UTC)

Norse colonization of North America:

The Little Ice Age of this period would have made travel between Greenland and Europe, as well as farming, more difficult; although seal and other hunting provided a healthy diet, there was more prestige in cattle farming, and there was increased availability of farms in Scandinavian countries depopulated by famine and plague epidemics. In addition, Greenlandic ivory may have been supplanted in European markets by cheaper ivory from Africa.[15]

Also, had Norse individuals used skin instead of wool to produce their clothing, they would have been able to fare better nearer to the coast, and wouldn't have been as confined to the fjords.[19][20][21]

History of Greenland talks about the fall of the Norse. It mentions ivory and other proposed causes but does not mention luxury.

Historiography of the fall of the Western Roman Empire: In 1984, Alexander Demandt enumerated 210 different theories on why Rome fell, and new theories have since emerged.[1][2]

Fall of the Western Roman Empire: "Formerly, says Ammianus, Rome was saved by her austerity, by solidarity between rich and poor, by contempt for death; now she is undone by her luxury and greed (Amm. xxxi. 5. 14 and xxii. 4.). Salvianus backs up Ammianus by affirming that greed (avaritia) is a vice common to nearly all Romans".[60] However, Lucius Calpurnius Piso Frugi (consul 133 BC) had already dated the start of Rome's moral decline to 154 BCE.[61]

Sumptuary law: During the height of the Empire, expenditure on silk imported from China was so high, Imperial advisers warned that Roman silver reserves were becoming exhausted.[10]

--Error (talk) 18:51, 1 October 2023 (UTC)

That's consonant with what I'm seeing in recent mass-media articles about Norse Greenland's decline, but there was a really specific claim that it had to do at least somewhat with import–export disparties and in particular with a fixation on impractical but expensive clothing. Just wish I knew where that had come from. It's not vital to anything, just one of those nagging mental notes.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  19:22, 1 October 2023 (UTC)

Why Did Greenland’s Vikings Vanish? adds that the market for walrus ivory in Norway collapsed in the 14th-century (their principal trade item), partly due to the arrival of elephant ivory in Europe and partly because the Black Death had killed half the Norwegian population and nobody was buying ornaments. Alansplodge (talk) 20:41, 1 October 2023 (UTC)

User:SMcCandlish, the first two sources I inspected ([6] [7]) both cited – as their first footnote! – claims regarding failure to adapt to Collapse: How Societies Choose to Fail or Succeed, a pretty popular book from about 15 or 20 years ago. It's early in the search, and I haven't found the import/export disparity thing you're looking for, but I thought I'd drop this tidbit here in case the source cited happened to be the one you were vaguely recalling. Folly Mox (talk) 01:50, 2 October 2023 (UTC)

That sounds about right; thanks. I was also going through a bunch of Diamond's stuff in that period.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  03:37, 2 October 2023 (UTC)

Incidentally, the claim "Greenlandic ivory may have been supplanted in European markets by cheaper ivory from Africa.[15]" from Norse colonization of North America#Western trade and decline I've just tagged {{cn}}. The source failed verification, as did the source's source, but it was usable for a previous sentence.

The major scholars I'm seeing go on about the economy of the Norse Greenland colonies and the economic factors for population decline are Else Roesdahl, Jette Arneborg (alt), her colleague Niels Lynnerup, and Karen Frei, but I might just be going in circles with one school of thought and there's another completely reputable one out there that talks about import / export disparity.

The theme I've been seeing is that – like always – multiple factors were at play, but when the walrus ivory stopped being worth it, people quit Greenlanding. Folly Mox (talk) 04:17, 2 October 2023 (UTC)

Well, "Greenlandic ivory may have been supplanted in European markets by cheaper ivory from Africa" (and Russia) is easily sourceable to other works. I just read what turned up in Google's first few hits of recent articles on modern re-examination of the "end of the Norse Greenland colonies" question, and that specific claim was made in all or most of them. Anyway, I agree with your gist, that it was a multi-cause collapse. I wasn't intending to controvert that, or even elevate sumptuary trade imbalance as a more important reason; rather, I was trying to find it again in relation to Greenland at all, and possibly (dpeending on what sources are available and what they have to say) relate it to similar conspicuous consumption habits in Scandinavia and north Scotland in roughly the same period.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  04:53, 2 October 2023 (UTC)

Sorry, yeah, I didn't read your question as attempting to assert a single cause you had read somewhere once as the one true cause of death of Norse Greenland; my rambles above were more just a status report for the whole audience here and anyone who might find this discussion in a future search, although I was hoping one of the academics I mentioned by name might ring a bell for you. I ended up citing the African ivory sentence to a paper by Kristen Seaver, whose name I remembered being mentioned History of Greenland#Norse abandonment for her 1996 book The Frozen Echo. Folly Mox (talk) 05:45, 2 October 2023 (UTC)

Lyennerup sounds familiar, but I don't think I got this idea from a journal paper. Hoping to find one or more that whatever I did read was relying on. Will probably start by re-reviewing that Diamond book, since it seems the probably source of what stuck in my head.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  07:11, 2 October 2023 (UTC)

Arneborg skates right by what I was after without quite touching it: "The [1400s Herjolfsnes] dress is of contemporary European fashion and clearly shows the importance the Norse Greenlanders attached to their European identity." [sigh]  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  07:18, 2 October 2023 (UTC)

Error -- Greenland didn't have great wealth accumulations like the Roman Empire. The economic objection to importing silk into the Roman Empire was that it largely had to be paid for with precious metals, and a continual drain of silver was thought to be nationally impoverishing. The British had a similar problem in their trade with China, until they hit on the expedient of exporting large amounts of opium there... AnonMoos (talk) 00:18, 2 October 2023 (UTC)

I see what you're saying, but a trade imbalance, including one related to purchase of impractical goods for status reasons, doesn't require "great wealth accumulation". Hell, I live in a neighborhood plagued by poverty but in which innumerable people have expensive sports cars they can't really afford. The urge to acquire and display pretty things beyond one's practical means is universal and timeless.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  04:53, 2 October 2023 (UTC)

What I meant is that I don't think that Greenland's possible economic problems had much in common with Rome's. In ancient Rome, wealthy people mainly spending within their means bought luxury goods (silk) which ended up causing unbalanced trade relationships for the Roman empire as a whole. A few moralists were annoyed by the ostentatious display and/or the steady drain of silver, but I don't think it had much to do with the eventual fall of the Roman empire... AnonMoos (talk) 22:55, 2 October 2023 (UTC)

October 2

Nationality?

Denise Moore was probably born of British parents in Algiers when it was part of French Algeria. Does that make her British, French or Algerian? Clarityfiend (talk) 03:13, 2 October 2023 (UTC)

In terms of qualication for a passport, French certainly, British probably, but not Algerian as she died well before independence, and was apparently not ethnically any sort of Algerian. Compare Rudyard Kipling and others. Johnbod (talk) 03:29, 2 October 2023 (UTC)

To answer the question that hasn't been asked, someone with a complicated ethnic–national–citizenship tension like that shouldn't have "was a [demonym] [occupation]" anywhere in their article (as I see is already the case for Denise Moore). That sort of language leads inevitably to acrimonious indentation levels. Folly Mox (talk) 04:30, 2 October 2023 (UTC)

I'm actually asking because of the categories: Category:Algerian aviators and others just don't sit well with me. I think I'll just take those out. Clarityfiend (talk) 06:06, 2 October 2023 (UTC)

There's probably nothing "complicated" at all, but we don't seem to know what passport(s) she held, or anything certain about her birth. Johnbod (talk) 04:35, 2 October 2023 (UTC)

Maybe I should have said "multimodal"? All I mean is if there's a sentence in the lead identifying the subject as a demonym, it's a magnet for nationality fans to alter or hyphenate. See for example Djaafar Khemdoudi and the related ANI. Folly Mox (talk) 05:58, 2 October 2023 (UTC)

User:Johnbod, wouldn't her passport show her citizenship status, not necessarily her nationality? I realise the line between these concepts is not clear cut. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 23:43, 2 October 2023 (UTC)

Modern passports have a field for nationality, they do not have a field marked "Citizenship". DuncanHill (talk) 00:42, 3 October 2023 (UTC)

I thought "surely American passports don't have a field for nationality", so I checked mine, and you're right, it does! It says "Nationality / Nationalité / Nacionalidad UNITED STATES OF AMERICA".

I have to say that seems pretty weird. If I have a US passport, isn't it sort of obvious I have US nationality? Even American Samoans have US nationality (their US citizenship is a contested point, I think). Is there anything else that would ever go in that field? Or is it just to make it easier on foreign customs agents, who might have to deal with passports from countries that do have multiple possibilities for nationality, if there are any? --Trovatore (talk) 01:50, 3 October 2023 (UTC)

I think the fields are standard by international treaty, & some countries have variant possibilities. Mine says "British citizen", but there's also (still I think) "British Overseas Citizen", "British protected person" (some 1200 left apparently) and maybe others. Johnbod (talk) 02:00, 3 October 2023 (UTC)

Some British nationals are not British citizens [8]. 2A02:C7B:10C:3200:A89E:70FA:13B5:5106 (talk) 11:41, 3 October 2023 (UTC)

Wow, yes! There are 6 types outlined there. Johnbod (talk) 15:08, 3 October 2023 (UTC)

No one has mentioned Pied-Noir as a possible affiliation yet... AnonMoos (talk) 08:49, 2 October 2023 (UTC)

Algeria had been a Department of France since 1848, so either French or British or both, depending on the whim of her parents. Alansplodge (talk) 12:44, 2 October 2023 (UTC)

See French_nationality_law#19th_century, and read on. As I read it she would not have qualified for French citizenship, even after the liberalisation of 1889, as neither of her parents were born in France. DuncanHill (talk) 14:48, 2 October 2023 (UTC)

The "Before Amelia" reference states "...born in Algeria of English parents, according to French and German sources (others claim her as American)... " --Soman (talk) 15:33, 2 October 2023 (UTC)

October 3

Voting rights for tax evaders

I understand that people in prison for felonies aren't allowed to vote while incarcerated, and in some states they can't vote even after being released. Murderers, embezzlers, drug dealers, all sorts of felons, we have the best felons.

My question: does the Twenty-fourth Amendment to the United States Constitution mean there is an exception to the above for tax evaders, at least for federal offices? It says:

Section 1. The right of citizens of the United States to vote in any primary or other election for President or Vice President, for electors for President or Vice President, or for Senator or Representative in Congress, shall not be denied or abridged by the United States or any State by reason of failure to pay any poll tax or other tax.

I'm wondering if this has ever come up. I'm not seeking legal advice. It's just that there is a guy currently in the news who has been accused by some of tax evasion, and who is running for president. Eugene Debs was able to run for president while imprisoned in 1920 so maybe the current guy can do something similar, conditional on the accusations being true. If there aren't other charges and that means he can still vote for himself, that might make a difference. Thanks. 2601:644:8501:AAF0:0:0:0:86EA (talk) 02:18, 3 October 2023 (UTC)

Here's a law-review article on the topic. The issue has never come up in court (at least as of 2007, and I haven't been able to find any more recent cases), but the author argues that tax evasion should be treated the same as any other felony. The question is also discussed briefly at the end of this article, with that author reaching a similar conclusion. Extraordinary Writ (talk) 03:13, 3 October 2023 (UTC)

Hah, thanks! I'm glad someone else thought of it and wrote an article. The situation sounds about like what I guessed though: it hasn't been tested in court, and it could probably go either way. 2601:644:8501:AAF0:0:0:0:86EA (talk) 05:24, 3 October 2023 (UTC)

• Tangential question from an EU resident:
• Does this (ie, no right to participate in elections) apply solely to the active right to vote (eg prisoner X can not vote in an presidential election) or does it apply to the passive vote (eg prisoner A can not be elected POTUS)?
• The US constitution seems to contain just 3 requirements, ie age ≥ 35a, natural born citizen and residency ≥ 14a. In theory, an elderly Incitatus may not be excluded from galopping from prison into the White House.

--Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 15:52, 3 October 2023 (UTC)

I think it's generally assumed that the constitutional eligibility criteria are exhaustive, in the sense that no mere statute can modify them, neither to make them more stringent nor more lenient. Eugene Debs was never going to win, but if he had he could presumably have taken office. Some of the criteria might be understood from common sense rather than explicitly laid out (a citizen must be a natural human person, for example, not a horse) but they still can't be affected by statutes such as the ones that disfranchise felons. --Trovatore (talk) 23:38, 3 October 2023 (UTC)

• Regarding immunities and the rights of felons to hold/run for office… it helps to know historical precedent. See John Wilkes (and follow the links). Blueboar (talk) 16:23, 3 October 2023 (UTC)

Consider two cases: a tax evader who is convicted of a felony, and one who plea bargains the charge to something less than a felony. In the first case, voting rights may be suspended, but not in the latter. DOR (ex-HK) (talk) 21:49, 3 October 2023 (UTC)

Cockatoo, see also Fourteenth_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution#Section_3:_Disqualification_from_office_for_insurrection_or_rebellion. It says people who participated in insurrections against the US aren't eligible for office. It was passed after the Civil War, for the purpose of stopping former Confederates from returning to office after losing the war. Right now there is a movement (influential article) to kick Trump off the ballot in the 2024 election, on the theory that the amendment makes him ineligible because of the January 6 riot. According to the proponents, a majority of US voters support making Trump ineligible. Silly me, I had thought such a majority could prevent Trump's potential re-election by just voting for his opponent in the usual way. I guess we will see. 2601:644:8501:AAF0:0:0:0:86EA (talk) 02:35, 4 October 2023 (UTC)

Added regarding serving in office from prison: William Musto, a New Jersey politician sent to prison for corruption, actually ran and got elected for a local office while locked up. But, a court stopped him from taking office. "Despite his legal troubles, Musto still managed to maintain his adoration from Union City and continued his 1982 reelection campaign for the city commission, winning the election against Menendez on May 11, 1982, the day after his sentencing. The courts forced him from office, and his wife, Rhyta, won her husband's seat in a special election.[1][6]". Added (OMG): Musto is legendary, but I didn't know til just now that his opponent in that election was Robert Menendez, another big crook who was just indicted after something like $480,000 in bribe money was found in his closet (Bob_Menendez#2023_indictment). Wow. Look out Florida Man, New Jersey is catching up ;). 2601:644:8501:AAF0:0:0:0:86EA (talk) 02:46, 4 October 2023 (UTC)

1917 election result

I'm revisiting the voting tally for the 1917 Kiev City Duma election, having encountered a scan of the 27 July 1917 copy of Kievlyanin here: https://issuu.com/sputnikipogrom/docs/178?utm_medium=referral&utm_source=sputnikipogrom.com (article title «Результаты выборов в Киевскую городскую думу») However, is the vote tally for List 1, 64,207 or 61,207? I can't read it well. -- Soman (talk) 20:29, 3 October 2023 (UTC)

Can't read a word of Cyrillic, but if you are referring to page 2, column 2, bottom quarter I'm pretty certain that it is 64,207. Martin of Sheffield (talk) 20:35, 3 October 2023 (UTC)