Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Poland

Categorisation of Category:Polish people of the partition period

Hi everyone. I had a good discussion with @Piotrus on my talk. The core of our concern is whether we can or cannot categorise people as having "Polish nationality", and thus include them in the nationality-based Category:Polish people tree (a child of Category:People by nationality), at times when there was arguably no "Polish" state, particularly during History of Poland (1795–1918) a.k.a. "partitioned Poland". Nationality is the legal connection between a state and its nationals (subjects or citizens), which cannot exist without a state. However, if we do not categorise Poles as having had a nationality during this period, we may be erasing them from history just because their state was destroyed by the Partitions, which I as a historian really don't want to do, and I think we here will all agree that this shouldn't happen. The history of the Poles during the partition should definitely documented; we just need to decide which way we can best approach their categorisation in the face of this nationality question. I suggested we could instead categorise people as "ethnic Poles" during this time, and thus put them in the Category:People by ethnicity tree, because ethnicity is about self-identification and does not require a state. Piotrus wasn't sure whether that was a better idea, and recommended I take the discussion here, so here I am.

I'll summarise both approaches here, but I'd encourage everyone to read our good discussion if they like to understand our reasoning in more detail:

The nationality-based approach

According to the nationality-based approach, we could interpret various political entities as (partial) "successor states" to the Polish–Lithuanian Commonwealth, which afforded their subjects a "Polish nationality", and include their "People from" categories in the nationality-based Category:Polish people tree. This is already the case for Category:People from Congress Poland and Category:People from the Duchy of Warsaw, but not yet for Category:People from the Kingdom of Galicia and Lodomeria and Category:People from the Grand Duchy of Posen (and perhaps others). This would solve many categorisation issues. With some minor adjustments, the category trees can continue to function as they have. But it does risk Wikipedia:Original research. As Piotrus pointed out, Serhiy Bilenky (2012) p. 204 wrote that Thaddeus Bulgarin asserted in the early 19th century that the Congress of Vienna had recognised the existence of a Polish nationality. However, Bilenky goes on to say several other people disagreed with Bulgarin's conclusions about nationalities. They were at odds with the idea that there could only be a real "Polish nationality" if the Poles had "national sovereignty", i.e. if there was a sovereign Polish state. Evidently, Russian-dominated Congress Poland (C-Poland), the French-dominated Duchy of Warsaw (D-Warsaw), the Austrian-dominated Kingdom of Galicia and Lodomeria (KoGaL) and the Prussian-dominated Grand Duchy of Posen (GD-Posen) were not. So we can't take Bulgarin's claims that there was a "Polish nationality" during the Partition period as fact. Perhaps, we cannot claim without evidence that these non-sovereign entities (C-Poland, D-Warsaw, KoGaL and GD-Posen; let's just use these abbreviations as shorthand) were "Polish" and afforded their subjects a "Polish nationality". But if there is evidence, which we'd have to gather, we perhaps could.

The ethnicity-based approach

According to the ethnicity-based approach, we could interpret individuals living within the Russian, Prussian and Austrian Partitions as "ethnic Poles" on a case-by-case basis if they self-identified as such, and include them in ethnicity-based categories such as Category:Polish Austro-Hungarians and Category:People from the Russian Empire of Polish descent. This would also solve many categorisation issues. The great advantage is that we avoid the whole issue of a lack of a sovereign Polish state which affords its subjects a Polish nationality. But Piotrus said it was not just ethnicity, also pointing to Polish-Lithuanian identity - was this a nationality or ethnicity? It would also compel is to check whether every person in the whole Category:Polish people of the partition period tree was an "ethnic Pole" or not, which could lead to a whole lot of endless disputes *cough* Marie Curie *cough* which I would prefer to avoid (and I think many will agree). Our current category trees simply work better on the assumption that there was a Polish nationality during the partition, even if there wasn't. But as said, that could amount to Wikipedia:Original research if we cannot demonstrate it with evidence.

Finally, Piotrus appears to contradict himself about how things were, and therefore what we should do, leaving me a little confused:

Both simultaneously?

Poland both did not exist and existed at that time, both statements are essentially correct. So... should we create a Schrödinger's category, which both exists and does not exist at the same time? Regarding KoGaL and Duchy of Posen, with the caveat that some (but not all) people from it were Polish, so the changes you suggest are correct. But does that mean we should put all Category:People from the Kingdom of Galicia and Lodomeria and Category:People from the Grand Duchy of Posen in the nationality-based Category:Polish people tree? Or does it mean we could (on a case-by-case basis) put pretty much the same people who are already in Category:People from the Kingdom of Galicia and Lodomeria also in the ethnicity-based Category:Polish Austro-Hungarians? If the latter, should we make some sort of Category:Polish Prussians ethnicity-based category, of which categories like Category:Polish social activists of the Prussian partition and Category:Poles - political prisoners in the Prussian partition would become subcategories? We've also already got the ethnicity-based Category:People from the Russian Empire of Polish descent; we could make Category:Poles - political prisoners in the Russian partition into one of its subcategories? I don't know...

We would both really appreciate your input! Cheers, Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 10:11, 4 August 2023 (UTC)

@Nederlandse Leeuw While the above argument is logical, my primary concern is that it would create a surprising (for most readers) gap in categories. I.e. a reader looking at Category:Polish people by period should be able to find Category:Polish people of the partition period since there is no reason to group the "period" category solely under nationality tree (and as such, I do not, at present, support removal of that category from its parent). Further, I'd point out that nation =/= nation state. During the Partitions, there was arguably no Polish nation state for some times (particularly in the "Vistula Land" period of the Congress Poland) but the Polish nation (a term that redirects to Polish people) did not disappear. While there may be some category massaging that needs to be done, I'd caution against any large changes that could create what seems to be gaps in our coverage of topics. _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 02:48, 5 August 2023 (UTC)

I agree with most of that. "Nation" in the sense of "people" may however be seen as a synonym for "ethnicity". I have indeed acknowledged that the ethnicity-based approach may lead to significant changes in our category structures and we must be wary of gaps. But it may be the best way to prevent Wikipedia:Original research, i.e. pretending a state to exist where there was none. And you agree that During the Partitions, there was arguably no Polish nation state. Cheers, Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 07:26, 5 August 2023 (UTC)

No state (with caveats) but yes for nation. Caveats I already noted - Duchy of Warsaw, Congress Poland, others. They were just not independent, but then, neither was People's Republic of Poland in the 20th century. Ethnicity is also problematic given stuff like Polish-Lithuanian identity and stuff like krajowcy or tutejszy, in the midsts of Germanization, Russification, Polonization, Lithuanization, etc. _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 02:20, 18 August 2023 (UTC)

@Nederlandse Leeuw The whole problem that you have created and which does not exist for anyone else, and on which you have based most of your activity on Wikipedia, comes precisely from the false belief that nationality "is the legal connection between a state and its nationals (subjects or citizens), which cannot exist without a state." This is solely your own definition, which has no support whatsoever in the scientific literature. Just reaching for the Britannica dictionary ([1]) shows how wrong you are: "1. a group of people who share the same history, traditions, and language, and who usually live together in a particular country. The country is home to five nationalities and seven languages." This definition alone shows that one country can be home to several nationalities. Similarly, Cambridge dictionary ([2]): "a group of people of the same race, religion, traditions, etc. He has dual British and American nationality. As you can see according to Cambrdige someone can have two nationalities, which does not fit in your definition. If I have to choose between you and Cambridge, I'm sorry to say but your opinion has no meaning then. Will you say that dictionaries are not enough? Then let's reach for a scholarly text, such as Citizenship and Nationality by Nelli Piattoeva ([3]): The proximity between citizenship and nationality has always been context-bound. Some nations have historically been more “political” and less “cultural” than others. When citizenship is strongly linked to nationality, it can turn out exclusive and conceive of the nation-state as a people with common roots, traditions, history and language. A looser link between the two terms would mean adherence to common political values. There also exists an alternative understanding of nationality and its link, or absence thereof, to citizenship that can be traced to a different variant of a modern state – the empire-state of the late Soviet Union. This exemplified a markedly different perception of integration of its constituent society into a political community, despite the fact that it operated with concepts borrowed from the vocabulary of the nation-state, i.e. autonomy, sovereignty and nationality. The Soviet regime codified nationality as an ethnocultural cognitive and social category that was neither elevated to the state-wide level nor attached to the notion of (Soviet) citizenship etc.

This virtually ends the discussion, which is based on the false premise that nationality equals belonging to a particular state. Marcelus (talk) 04:15, 18 August 2023 (UTC)

Britannica dictionary ([4]): "1. a group of people who share the same history, traditions, and language, and who usually live together in a particular country." Yes, and Britannica definition 2. says: 2. formal : the fact or status of being a member or citizen of a particular nation. That is the formal, legal definition.

Similarly, Cambridge dictionary ([5]): "a group of people of the same race, religion, traditions, etc." Yes, that is the second definition; the first and third Cambridge definitions say: [first] the official right to belong to a particular country and [third] the state of belonging to a particular country or being a citizen of a particular nation. Those are legal definitions.

I acknowledge it is possible to have multiple nationalities/citizenships (passports etc.).

If I have to choose between you and Cambridge, I'm sorry to say but your opinion has no meaning then. Well I think my reasoning above is supported by Britannica definition 2., and the first and third Cambridge definitions, which are legal definitions. If you like the second Cambridge definition more (which can be read as "national identity"), okay, but that is just 1 out of the 5 definitions provided by the two dictionaries you cited. Similarly, I think that the way Piattoeva uses the word "nationality" is synonymous with "national identity" (and explaining ethnic nationalism versus state/civic nationalism). That is not what the Category:People by nationality tree is forl it says very clearly: This category is for articles on people according to their civic nationality (legal affiliation with a state). That is Britannica definition 2. ("being a member or citizen of a particular nation") and the first and third Cambridge definitions ("the official right to belong to a particular country" and "being a citizen of a particular nation").

the false premise that nationality equals belonging to a particular state. Well it's only false if we assume the word "nationality" to always take on the legal meaning, because, as you rightly pointed out, sometimes it takes on the meaning of "national identity" (or "ethnicity"). I acknowledge it does not always mean that. But in the Category:People by nationality, and in the main article nationality, it does mean that. My question is about categorisation of people by their legal nationality, and whether that can be done at the time of Partitioned Poland or not? Good day. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 04:52, 18 August 2023 (UTC)

PS: Of course I acknowledge that the Poles existed during the Partition period. My only question is whether categorising them by legal nationality is a good idea, or whether by ethnicity is a better idea. Britannica definition 1. and the second Cambridge definition are much closer to the Category:People by ethnicity tree. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 05:03, 18 August 2023 (UTC)

No; nationality has a broader meaning than just the legal definition you are focusing on, my examples were intended to show this. Both the category and the article should reflect this, if the nationality article only focuses on the legal definition then it is just badly written. The fact remains that even legally some countries (in this case the Soviet Union) define nationality differently I think that the way Piattoeva uses the word "nationality" is synonymous with "national identity"}, you have the right to make that assumption, but it is again your WP:OR, the fact remains that even legally some countries (in this case the Soviet Union) define nationality differently. If you want you can build a category tree: Category:People by civic nationality, which will be limited to this narrow understanding of nationality. But the existing tree must reflect the full meaning of the concept.

This closes the topic in its essential part.

Moving on to pure factuality, you make further mistakes. For example, your statement that there was no Polish state in the 19th century is false. Since there was a Kingdom of Poland united by a personal union with the Russian Empire from 1815, this state did not cease to exist until 1918. Before that, there was also the Duchy of Warsaw, considered a Polish state. Likewise with the Grand Duchy of Posen or the Free City of Cracow, etc. Marcelus (talk) 05:13, 18 August 2023 (UTC)

If you want you can build a category tree: Category:People by civic nationality, which will be limited to this narrow understanding of nationality. But the existing tree must reflect the full meaning of the concept. Not really; the current definition of Category:People by nationality is legal affiliation with a state. So if you think this should be changed, it is up to you to nominate that category for renaming, not up to me. Right now, the category follows the same definitions I have been using.

your statement that there was no Polish state in the 19th century is false. I never said that in those words; I've said that it depends on how you define "Polish state". Russian-dominated Congress Poland (C-Poland), the French-dominated Duchy of Warsaw (D-Warsaw), the Austrian-dominated Kingdom of Galicia and Lodomeria (KoGaL) and the Prussian-dominated Grand Duchy of Posen (GD-Posen) were were all non-sovereign entities inhabited mostly by Poles, but did that make them "Polish states" or not? You seem to be arguing that they were, which is an argument I am willing to accept (as I described in "The nationality-based approach"), but that has certain implications. It could be WP:OR if we cannot find literature supporting this idea of Polish nationality based on non-sovereign Polish states under foreign domination. I'm open to this, but let's find that literature first. As said Serhiy Bilenky (2012) p. 204 pointed out it's not that easy to think of legal nationality in the early 19th century, as there were disagreements about what that concept meant, and whether it could only apply to Poles if they had their own sovereign state, or did not have to. Good day. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 18:44, 18 August 2023 (UTC)

So if you think this should be changed, it is up to you to nominate that category for renaming, not up to me. Right now, the category follows the same definitions I have been using, false; the category is properly named, you just trying to impose on others very narrow understanding of the notion, that goes contrary to the reliable sources. QED Marcelus (talk) 19:27, 18 August 2023 (UTC)

"The whole problem that you have created and which does not exist for anyone else". Don't break what's broken. The 'by nationality' tree contains not only Category:19th-century Polish people, but also Category:19th-century Ukrainian people, Category:19th-century Lithuanian people or Category:19th-century Czech people. Same logical applies to them as to the Category:Polish people of the partition period. And what about Category:15th-century American people (USA did not exist back then) or Category:17th-century German people (era of the Holy Roman Empire and other German states, but there was no "Germany" back then...). ategorize them under ethnicity or civic nationality or whatever for extra detail, but don't remove them from parent categories. There is no consensus for the bold recategorization that NL has done, and I think it should be reverted (again, I don't oppose creation or addition of any new categories, but I oppose edits like this. _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 01:29, 21 August 2023 (UTC)

@Nederlandse Leeuw My view is that the nationality-based approach would simplify matters (while an ethnic approach would most likely complicate things), considering that it is a very simple question that one has to answer when it comes to nationality: was this person born in this entity (C-Poland, D-Warsaw, KoGaL and GD-Posen) and/or very associated with it? If yes, then they're part of the category, if not, then no. The question of ethnicity, unless very explicitly stated by the author himself or visible from his activities, is unanswerable for numerous people - Piotrus already mentioned the case of Tutejszy, which frequently just equated their Catholic religion with being Polish due to being told so by someone despite frequently being of ethnic Lithuanian descent and not speaking proper Polish.

Although this goes beyond the matter of the partitions, this logic of nationalities should be applied to people from before the partitions as well - people from the Grand Duchy of Lithuania should not be lumped in with the Crown of the Kingdom of Poland. After all, the PLC is well-known for its ethnic diversity and grouping every single more notable person from its territories under 'Polish' as is far too frequently done contradicts all the complexities of gente Lituanus, natione Polonus and other varieties such as Ruthenians and most likely many others. I think that in complicated articles where the answer is objectively unclear, maybe the best option is to avoid even calling the person e.g. "Polish military person" and instead resort to just naming their positions and to what organisations they belonged to. That way we would minimize the possibility of WP:OR such as finding tombstones and guessing their ethnicity based on the language of the tombstone or anything else that involves personal interpretations, instead focusing on facts.--Cukrakalnis (talk) 18:18, 18 August 2023 (UTC)

Well said, you understand a lot of things I've been trying to say. Marcelus also seems to favour the nationality-based approach by identifying C-Poland, D-Warsaw, KoGaL and GD-Posen as non-sovereign "Polish states", which is indeed probably the simplest answer to the question. There just seems to be a bit of confusion about what the term "nationality" means. I'm trying to be fair and accurate, as well as doing justice to the Poles and Polish history, and I don't want to upset anyone, so I'm trying to be careful. Cheers, Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 18:50, 18 August 2023 (UTC)

It is very good that you are bringing this topic up in a careful way to ensure fairness and accuracy. Indeed, as you say, nationality brings up confusion in this situation, but I think its only part of larger problem which is the lack of a system.

This is unsurprising considering that many uncoordinated people contribute bit by bit, which leads to categories like Category:People from the Russian Empire of Polish descent vs Category:Polish Austro-Hungarians instead of Category:People from Austria-Hungary of Polish descent or even Category:People from the Habsburg Empire of Polish descent (Austro-Hungarian Empire only began in 1867, while the Austrian Empire lasted from 1804 to 1867 - while Habsburg Empire encompasses all of it). My view is that the best categories are the ones you can logically guess instead of having to specifically find each one individually.

The lack of standardization disorganizes things and I am extremely glad that someone is taking up the humongous task of cleaning up/making sense out of the categories. Best wishes, Cukrakalnis (talk) 19:27, 18 August 2023 (UTC)

Marcelus also seems to favour the nationality-based approach by identifying C-Poland, D-Warsaw, KoGaL and GD-Posen as non-sovereign "Polish states", which is indeed probably the simplest answer to the question. There just seems to be a bit of confusion about what the term "nationality" means, false and mirepresentation of my words. The question if mentioned countries were "Polish" or not is irrelevent; because the notion of nationality is much broader than the narrow definition you are trying to impose on others. There is no confusion, reliable sources are conclusive in the matter: nationality is both "belonging to certain state" and "belonging to certain group of people who are united by a common culture, history, traditions etc." Marcelus (talk) 19:30, 18 August 2023 (UTC)

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Requested move at Talk:Mazovia#Requested move 30 July 2023

There is a requested move discussion at Talk:Mazovia#Requested move 30 July 2023 that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. —usernamekiran (talk) 11:06, 16 August 2023 (UTC)

Merge to People of the Polish–Lithuanian Commonwealth

Further to the 2022 merge/rename of C18 Polish people by occupation to people of the Polish–Lithuanian Commonwealth, please see Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2023 August 20#18th-century Lithuanian people by occupation. – Fayenatic London 08:32, 21 August 2023 (UTC)

Discussion on CfD regarding the history of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth

On WP:CfD there is an important discussion concerning the categorization of people living in the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth, as well as the shape of the category tree concerning people of Polish nationality. Because of the subject matter, it seemed to me that this discussion might be of interest to participants in this Wikiproject.

Link: Wikipedia:Categories_for_discussion/Log/2023 August_21#Category:18th-century people from the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth by occupation Marcelus (talk) 22:27, 21 August 2023 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/2016 in Polish television

Hello, WikiProject,

It looks like deletion sorting wasn't used on this bundled nomination so I wanted to alert any interested editors in this AFD that was nominated today. Thanks. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 21:12, 4 September 2023 (UTC)

Requested move at Talk:List of bishops of the Polish National Catholic Church in America#Requested move 1 September 2023

There is a requested move discussion at Talk:List of bishops of the Polish National Catholic Church in America#Requested move 1 September 2023 that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. —usernamekiran (talk) 03:41, 9 September 2023 (UTC)

Women in Green's 5th Edit-a-thon

Hello WikiProject Poland:

WikiProject Women in Green is holding a month-long Good Article Edit-a-thon event in October 2023!

Running from October 1 to 31, 2023, WikiProject Women in Green (WiG) is hosting a Good Article (GA) edit-a-thon event with the theme Around the World in 31 Days! All experience levels welcome. Never worked on a GA project before? We'll teach you how to get started. Or maybe you're an old hand at GAs – we'd love to have you involved! Participants are invited to work on nominating and/or reviewing GA submissions related to women and women's works (e.g., books, films) during the event period. We hope to collectively cover article subjects from at least 31 countries (or broader international articles) by month's end. GA resources and one-on-one support will be provided by experienced GA editors, and participants will have the opportunity to earn a special WiG barnstar for their efforts.

We hope to see you there!

Grnrchst (talk) 13:36, 21 September 2023 (UTC)