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{{FascismProject}}
{{infobox Book | <!-- See Wikipedia:WikiProject_Novels or Wikipedia:WikiProject_Books -->
{{Controversial-ital-bold}}
| name = The Glass Bead Game
| title_orig = Das Glasperlenspiel
| translator = Richard and Clara Winston
| image =
| author = [[Hermann Hesse]]
| cover_artist =
| country = [[Switzerland]]
| language = [[German language|German]]
| series =
| genre = [[Novel]]
| publisher = [[Holt, Rinehart and Winston]]
| release_date = [[1943]] (Eng. trans. [[1969]])
| media_type = Print ([[Hardcover|Hardback]] & [[Paperback]])
| pages = 558 pp
| isbn = NA <!-- published before ISBN system -->
| preceded_by =
| followed_by =
}}


'''''The Glass Bead Game''''' ([[German language|German]]: '''''Das Glasperlenspiel''''') is the last work and [[magnum opus]] of the German author [[Hermann Hesse]]. Begun in [[1931]] and published in [[Switzerland]] in [[1943]], the book was mentioned in Hesse's citation for the 1946 [[Nobel Prize]] for Literature.


Wow, wild ass assertions about people being Jews and claims of DNA evidence without proof? Most of what has been posted below concerning the doings of various NSM members have not been verified. You call this site an encyclopedia? Get real.
"Glass Bead Game" is a literal translation of the German title. The title has also been translated as '''''Magister Ludi'''''. "Magister Ludi," [[Latin]] for "master of the game," is the name of an honorific title awarded to the book's central character. ''Magister Ludi'' can also be seen as a [[pun]]: ''lud'' is a Latin stem meaning both "game" and "school."


This article is a bunch of jew shit. No wonder so many assert that wikipedia is a jew project.
==Plot summary==
{{spoiler}}
''The Glass Bead Game'' takes place during the 23rd century. The setting is a fictional province of central Europe called Castalia, reserved by political decision for the life of the mind; technology and economic life are kept to a strict minimum. Hesse mentions the political violence of the 20th century in passing, but his main critique of that century is encapsulated by his dismissive name for it: the Age of the [[Feuilleton]], an intellectually superficial and decadent period, when [[middle brow]] journalism replaced serious reading and reflection.


who keeps deleating updated sections from the nsm88 topic?
Castalia is home to a [[monastic]] order of [[intellectual]]s with a twofold mission: to run boarding schools for boys (the novel is thus a detailed exploration of education and the life of the mind), and to nurture and play the Glass Bead Game (see below).


This is a lie. There has not been a mass exodus of members. In fact the SPLC says they are the fastest growing white nationalist group in America.
The novel chronicles the life of a distinguished member of the order, Joseph Knecht (the surname translates as "servant" or "farm hand"), as narrated by a fictional historian of the order. Hence the novel is an example of a [[Bildungsroman]]. At any given time, the member of the order deemed the best Game player is honored with the title ''Magister Ludi''.


^ Oh my gawd, who ever could've guessed that neo-Nazis would be semi-literate morons with a third grade mastery of the English language? [[User:Murple|Murple]] 21:23, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
Polarities lie at the heart of the work, as is commonly the case in Hesse's novels. Two relationships are of particular interest, that of Knecht with his teacher, the learned monk Father Jacobus, and with his best friend at the boarding school run by the order, Plinio Designori, the scion of a rich family. At the end of their school days, Knecht, representing [[aestheticism]] and the Life of the Mind, joins the order, while Designori returns to the world. He embodies a failed reconciliation between mind and world.


This article should be merged with [[National Socialist Movement (US)]]. I don't know exactly which is the preferred name. [[User:Bogdangiusca|Bogdan]] | [[User talk:Bogdangiusca|Talk]] 12:38, 17 Feb 2005 (UTC)
In his introduction to ''[[Demian]]'', [[Thomas Mann]] likened his relation with Hesse to that of Knecht and Jacobus, adding that their knowledge of each other was not possible without much ceremony. Mann extrapolates on Hesse's observance of Oriental customs in the novel. The ''Glass Bead Game'' manifests Hesse's enduring dream of combining East with West. For example, the discipline of the imaginary monastic community includes breathing and [[meditation]] techniques of clear Oriental inspiration.
----
An anonymous user added this to the article: [[User:Bogdangiusca|Bogdan]] | [[User talk:Bogdangiusca|Talk]] 23:50, 24 Feb 2005 (UTC)


:In what is referred to as the 2004 exodus approximately 30% of the NSM membership resigned after demanding the impeachment of Jeff Schoep. The current NSM exists with around 30 units in the USA and 3 overseas. What was once a functional organization has been reduced to a mere shell of it's previous status in the "Movement". Units are made up of anywhere from 1 member with a PO Box to around 5. The NSM membership seems to have a turn over rate of about 6 months. It's estimated that the NSM has approximately 50 members at any given time. No more than 20 have ever appeared at their public events. Often the NSM rallies nearby other successful organizations drawing off their membership to make a showing.
Castalia is an [[Ivory Tower]], an ethereal protected community within a larger nation, devoted to pure intellectual pursuits, and oblivious to the problems posed by life outside its boundaries. Knecht gradually comes to doubt whether the intellectually gifted have a right to withdraw from life's big problems. He eventually concludes that they do not, and that conclusion precipitates a sort of midlife crisis. Accordingly, he does the unthinkable: he resigns as Magister Ludi and asks to leave the order, ostensibly to become of value and service, in some way, to the larger culture. A few days later, he drowns in a mountain lake, while attempting a swim for which he was not fit. Tragically, living in Castalia made Knecht unfit for life in the world. Hesse also makes an [[existentialist]] point: faced with a dilemma, Knecht opts for the world and not the ivory tower.


:The NSM attends rallies and racially aligned events around the USA at which times it is able to attain photographs with supporters and other organization members. The heavily hyped "Viking Youth" program is made up of 4 to 8 youth spread across the nation so that no three ever attend meetings together. The photos of youth touted by Jeff Schoep as proff of his youth members are in reality those young peple who attended a rally of the Virginia based KKK. Not one of those in the photos are actual NSM Viking youth. There is also no real training ground for members or youth for that matter as stated on the NSM website. At best "Viking Youth" is a figment of Schoeps imagination and hopes for gaining uninformed teens.
Many characters in the novel have names that are allusive word games. For example, Knecht's predecessor as Magister Ludi was Thomas van der Trave, a veiled reference to [[Thomas Mann]] who was born in [[Lübeck]], situated on the Trave River. Father Jacobus is based on the novelist [[Jakob Wassermann]]. The character of Carlo Ferromonte is a punning reference to Hesse's nephew Karl Isenberg.


:The NSM Exodus began in 2004 after the annual congress. Unit Leaders from around the USA met in Kansas and organized to demand the impeachment of Schoep due to mismanagement of donations and funds raised. Schoep was also accused of drunkenness, and adultery with another members woman. Many accusations were made public and included allowing homosexual, bi-sexual, and non-white members into the organization. Specifically Michael Blevins aka Von Bluvens took over the NSMradio program as minister of radio propaganda. It was proven through DNA evidence that Mike Blevins was in fact a jewish semite. Other allegations included letters written by Schoep to a known informant named Frazier Glenn Miller. Miller testified against "Movement" leaders in the Ft. Smith sedition trials and went into the Federal Witness Protection Program.
==Central characters==
*Joseph Knecht: The central character of the book. The Magister Ludi for most of the book.
*The Music Master: Knecht's spiritual mentor who when Knecht is a child examines him for entrance into the elite schools of Castalia.
* Plinio Designori: Knecht's antithesis in the world outside.
*Father Jacobus: Knecht's antithesis in faith.
*Elder Brother: A former Castalian and student of Chinese.
*Thomas van der Trave: Joseph Knecht's predecessor as Magister Ludi.
*Fritz Tegularius: A friend of Knecht's but a portent of what Castalians might become if they remain insular.


Jeff Schoep was exposed as a fraud and convicted felon during the 2004 exodus when court documents of his conviction were made public. He had burglarized a home while his children sat in the backseat of his car. Schoep is the father of 7 children by several different women and lives off government assistance. He has been shown to be nothing more than a liar and fraud who has been living off the dues and donations of his members without any oversight. The current NSM is nothing more than a Jeff Schoep cult and any real activists have moved on to join other organizations or remain independent.
==Hesse's Glass Bead Game==
At the center of the monastic order lies the (fictitious) glass bead [[game]], whose exact nature remains elusive. The precise rules of the game are only alluded to, and are so sophisticated that they are not easy to imagine. Suffice it to say that playing the Game well requires years of hard study of music, mathematics, and cultural history. Essentially the game is an abstract [[synthesis]] of all arts and scholarship. It proceeds by players making deep connections between seemingly unrelated topics. For example, a [[Johann Sebastian Bach|Bach]] [[concerto]] may be related to a mathematical [[formula]]. One [http://www.sfhreview.com/workingpapers/?p=1 description] says:


== 68.34.158.41 ==
''“Theoretically,” writes the Narrator Archivist, “this instrument is capable of producing in the Game the entire intellectual content of the universe. The manuals, pedal, and stops are now fixed. Changes in their number and order and attempts at perfecting them, are actually no longer feasible except in theory.” And with this statement, he reveals the limitations of the game: its elitism, its hubris, its stagnation, and its sterility.In its infancy, the Game was played with delicate glass beads, which have since been discarded as too . . . real? They connected the Game with the spiritual beads played by religious believers worldwide, as the robes, and secret language, and ceremonial trappings of the game form a mock religious experience in the time of the Narrator Archivist. Without them, the game flies into the ether without a tether to reality. In our world, prayer beads and the repetition of simple phrases serve as keys to transcendence. In Castalia, they are discarded and the key is lost. The Narrator Archivist makes no reference to the ecstatic states that might be achieved by Glass Bead Game players. The games as he describes them in Knecht’s time (the twenty-second century) and his own (the twenty-fourth century) apparently fall short of what seems the obvious goal.''


I don't know where the IP is. You're a member, I'm a member, etc. The NSM *had* a paramilitary training camp, and the fellow running it raped some 13 and 14 year old boys. Now, they no longer have the camp. His name was Michael Faust, and there is a citation to an article on him in the main article.
The Game derives its name from the fact that it was originally played with tokens, perhaps analogous to those of an [[abacus]] or the game [[go (board game)|Go]]. At the time that the novel takes place, such props had become obsolete and the game is played only with abstract, spoken formulas. The audience's appreciation of a good game draws on its appreciation of both [[music]] and mathematical [[elegance]].


Run a background check on Schoep. He's a multiply convicted felon, actually. So is Angela Foxworth.
The Glass Bead Game also brings to mind [[Leibniz]]'s notion of a universal [[calculus]] and his dream of a [[Mathesis universalis]]. [[Douglas Hofstadter]]'s ''[[Gödel, Escher, Bach]]'', even though it does not mention Hesse's novel, is an intellectual exercise very much in the spirit of the Game.


Here are the court files:
However rather as being seen as a purely intellectual or rational notion it is more likely the glass bead game includes more [[Existential]] elements. As Hesse's other works (such as Steppenwolf for example) draw strongly on [[Existential]] themes it is likely that the glass bead game refers to the way in which people construct their realities. That is to say that the glass bead game is in fact life or existence and it illustrates the ways that people position not just themselves material but how they construct their entire perception of reality. As one needs to understand reality before one can deliberately allocate it this is the reference to the years of study.


Record 1:
==Allusions/references from other works==
Identification
* The [[Yugoslavia|Yugoslav]] band [[Igra Staklenih Perli]], and their [[eponym|eponymous]] record, was named after the book.[http://www.progarchives.com/Progressive_rock_discography_BAND.asp?band_id=1614]
Name: JEFFREY STEPHEN SCHOEP
[Perform Background Check]
Aliases: SCHOEP, JEFFREY; SCHOEP, JEFF STEPHEN; SCHOEP, JEFFREY STEPHAN; SCHOEP, JEFFREY STEPHEN;
Source: Minnesota
Sex: MALE
DOB: 11/12/1973
Race: WHITE
Offense
Court Name RAMSEY DIST COURT
Case Number: 94016200
Offense ID MN_DPS186025001001
Offense Code 609.595.1.3
Offense DAMAGE TO PROP-1ST DEG-VALUE REDUCED OVER $500
Offense Type MISDEMEANOR
Disposition Date 04/28/1995


Record 2:
== See also ==
Identification
*[[Hermann Hesse]]
Name: JEFFREY STEPHEN SCHOEP
* [[Existentialism]]
[Perform Background Check]
* [[Jorge Luis Borges]]
Aliases: SCHOEP, JEFFREY; SCHOEP, JEFF STEPHEN; SCHOEP, JEFFREY STEPHAN; SCHOEP, JEFFREY STEPHEN;
* [[Epistemology]]
Source: Minnesota
* [[Noosphere]]
Sex: MALE
* [[Ontology]]
DOB: 11/12/1973
* [[Polysemy]]
Race: WHITE
* [[Rithmomachy]]
Offense
* [[Syncretism]]
Court Name SHERBURNE DIST COURT
* [[Efforts to Create A Glass Bead Game]]
Case Number: 98006844
Offense ID MN_DPS186025002001
Offense Code 609.582
Offense BURGLARY
Offense Type FELONY
Disposition Date 11/19/1998


Record 3:
== References ==
Identification
* Hermann Hesse. ''The Glass Bead Game''. Vintage Classics. ISBN 0-09-928362-X
Name: JEFFREY STEPHEN SCHOEP
[Perform Background Check]
Aliases: SCHOEP, JEFFREY; SCHOEP, JEFF STEPHEN; SCHOEP, JEFFREY STEPHAN; SCHOEP, JEFFREY STEPHEN;
Source: Minnesota
Sex: MALE
DOB: 11/12/1973
Race: WHITE
Offense
Court Name RAMSEY DIST COURT
Case Number: 94016200
Offense ID MN_DPS186025001001
Offense Code 609.595.1.3
Offense DAMAGE TO PROP-1ST DEG-VALUE REDUCED OVER $500
Offense Type MISDEMEANOR
Disposition Date 04/28/1995


Record 4:
{{Hermann Hesse}}
Identification
Name: JEFFREY STEPHEN SCHOEP
[Perform Background Check]
Aliases: SCHOEP, JEFFREY; SCHOEP, JEFF STEPHEN; SCHOEP, JEFFREY STEPHAN; SCHOEP, JEFFREY STEPHEN;
Source: Minnesota
Sex: MALE
DOB: 11/12/1973
Race: WHITE
Offense
Court Name SHERBURNE DIST COURT
Case Number: 98006844
Offense ID MN_DPS186025002001
Offense Code 609.582
Offense BURGLARY
Offense Type FELONY
Disposition Date 11/19/1998


The proof of the amount of members comes from a statement by Cliff Herrington as to the number of copies of the member newspaper being published at its peak. If you need some sources as to the current number of members, I'll post some.
== External links ==


-----
* [http://www.ludism.org/gbgwiki/ Glass Bead Game Wiki.] Links to efforts at developing a Glass Bead Game.
* [http://www.erpmusic.com/Glasperlenspiel.htm Glasperlenspiel Festival.]
* [http://glassplategame.org/ Details] of Dunbar Aitkens' "conversation in the trappings of a board game."
* [http://www.beadgaming.com/pageindex.html On the hipbone metaphor.]
* [http://www36.pair.com/waldzell/GBG/index.html The most complex of the attempts to create a real-life Glass Bead Game.]
* http://www.joshuafost.com/glassbeadgame/ A Semantic Web instantiation with examples from symbolism in Pulp Fiction.
* http://kennexions.ludism.org/ A link to Ron Hale-Evans' Kennexions game.
* http://jan.ucc.nau.edu/%7Etas3/wtc/ii21.html Timothy A. Smith's Shockwave movie analyzing a Bach fugue with visual symbols.
* http://log24.com/theory/kal/ Kaleidoscope Puzzle with symbols like those in Smith's movie.
* http://www.spookybug.com/bgirls/pif.html The Gospel of Pif: A playable variation on the glass bead game
* http://www.island.org/ive/1/leary1.html Huxley, Hesse and The Cybernetic Society


[[Category:1943 novels|Glass Bead Game]]
[[Category:German novels|Glass Bead Game]]
[[Category:Fictional games|Glass Bead Game]]


*The NSM does not have paramilitary training camps. This is simply untrue. I know since I am a member.
[[de:Das Glasperlenspiel]]

[[fr:Le Jeu des perles de verre]]
*Where is the proof of alleged criminal activity of Jeff Schoep?
[[it:Il gioco delle perle di vetro]]

[[ja:ガラス玉演戯]]
*Where is the proof of the amount of members?
[[nl:kralenspel]]

[[ru:Игра в бисер]]
This article is extremely biased.
[[fi:Lasihelmipeli]]

Some of the items are disputed. I think this should be brought forward for consideration instead of just disregarding it.

(above edits by [[User:68.34.158.41|68.34.158.41]] -- [[User:Rama|Rama]] 21:17, 22 September 2005 (UTC) )

:[[User:68.34.158.41|68.34.158.41]], you cannot dismiss these statements by asking questions.

:*One of the first sentences by [http://www.adl.org/Learn/Ext_US/The_National_Socialist_Movement.asp?xpicked=3&item=nsm] is that NSM members are "racist skinheads and other young white supremacists, who join in NSM activities ranging from literature distribution to armed paramilitary training."

:*Details about Jeff Schoep are available just above and in [http://www.splcenter.org/intel/intelreport/article.jsp?aid=512], you are free to ask this court for duplicates of the documents

:*The number of members is given in [http://www.adl.org/Learn/Ext_US/The_National_Socialist_Movement.asp?xpicked=3&item=nsm]: "In 2004, it has between 100 and 200 members and hangers-on in 38 chapters."

:If you want to make a statement about the nature of the activities of NSM88, you are free to contribute photographs of events or meetings under the CC-by-sa-2.5 licence. [[User:Rama|Rama]] 21:17, 22 September 2005 (UTC)

::Regarding another point raised in a comment on the article page (comments belong here, not there) about the name of the group. On the home page of NSM, http://www.nsm88.com/index2.html, it says "The National Socialist Movement (aka NSM88) is the largest Nazi Party operating in the United States of America today." -[[User:Willmcw|Willmcw]] 22:00, 22 September 2005 (UTC)

== Headline text ==
==NSM membership figures==

I just added about 18 links to articles and reference on membership numbers, informers in the group, recent activities, paramiliary camps, etc.

Enjoy.

-----

There is a statement out there from Clfif Herrington, who produced the NSM newspaper for members, that he was producing 400 copies a month. Thus, the NSM did not have more than 400 paying members at its peak.

The NSM did have paramilitary training camps. A fellow in Wisconsin went to jail for running them. There are old news articles out there on that for those who wish to look.

--

Let's leave off the membership numbers figures, which are given as facts in this article, until we have more information. Where does ADL say they (NSM) have no more than 6 members in any one unit? Also, if we quote figures given by the ADL we should say "according to the ADL, the NSM has X numbers of members" rather than simply stating it as fact.

I also do not believe that the NSM has Paramilitary Training Camps. The reason I do not believe so is that I feel that if they really did have such the media would have reported it. Like it or not, but the media loves articles about Nazis and Neo-Nazis because it's sure be noticed.
[[User:196.207.37.253|196.207.37.253]] 22:18, 22 September 2005 (UTC)

: The NSM site itself advocates "up of five-man cells" ("This is a very basic outline of legitimate targets for an underground organization. Ideally, such a formation should be made up of five-man cells", [http://www.nsm88.com/articles/sstein17.html]). Did you read your own site ? [[User:Rama|Rama]] 22:24, 22 September 2005 (UTC)

: Oh, also, do you contest the amount of the membership fee ? If yes, please use your inside knowledge to correct the amount rather than deleting the information. [[User:Rama|Rama]] 22:30, 22 September 2005 (UTC)


[[User:68.34.158.41|68.34.158.41]] 16:14, 23 September 2005 (UTC)The allegations of Jeff Schoeps criminal record is provided by the ADL. I think it should should read "according to the ADL".

: No, it should not, unless we have reasons to believe that what ADL says is wrong. [[User:Rama|Rama]] 16:16, 23 September 2005 (UTC)

[[User:68.34.158.41|68.34.158.41]] 16:22, 23 September 2005 (UTC)Has the ADL provided proof of their allegations? Just because they say it doen't make it so. They are not an unimpeachable source.
: Do you have any reason to contest what they are saying ? [[User:Rama|Rama]] 16:42, 23 September 2005 (UTC)

[[User:68.34.158.41|68.34.158.41]] 16:22, 23 September 2005 (UTC) "Children are endoctrined and taken into paramilitary activities." This is stated as if it is a fact. It hasn't been proven as fact.
: Then be all means do make a photographic coverage of the average activities of this "Nazi Party", upload them on Wikipedia under a Free licence (I recommend Cc-by-sa-2.5) and we will have original material to discuss. For now, all sources I have seen point to paramilitary activities and the young age of members. [[User:Rama|Rama]] 16:42, 23 September 2005 (UTC)

[[User:68.34.158.41|68.34.158.41]] 16:29, 23 September 2005 (UTC) The NSM entries should be short and to the point without trivial mud slinging or grandstanding. Can I make it any more clear than that?
: Yes, I suppose so. What you are saying is either wrong ("The NSM entries should be short"; how so ? If we have things to say about them, we will), either very vague and general ("without trivial mud slinging or grandstanding"; yes, quite obviously). [[User:Rama|Rama]] 16:42, 23 September 2005 (UTC)

Rama, ask yourself this: If the NSM really is recruiting children into paramilitary action then why has the press ignored it? Do you think the press would ignore such a sensational story? Why is it that whenever the NSM passes out leaflets and DOES make the news the press suppresses the fact that they recruit children into paramilitary camps? Do you think that the press believes a few leaflets left on windshields is more newsworthy than neo-nazi paramilitary camps?

As of the numbers, if you wish to quote the ADL figures simply say "according to the ADL ...". That is not to say that their figures are not correct, but for an encyclopedia to list it as fact gives the impression that the ADL numbers can not be refuted. [[User:196.207.45.254|196.207.45.254]] 18:08, 23 September 2005 (UTC)

==132.241.245.132==

You're not the only one who hates Nazis. Given what they've done, this is a perfectly understandable reaction; I do myself. But using their stigma as a weapon and Wikipedia as a platform to smear those whose legitimate political viewpoints you don't like is unacceptable. [[User:Rogue 9|Rogue 9]] 05:31, 16 October 2005 (UTC)



*Censorship on NSM

I tried to add the National Socialist Movement USA newsportal: http://www.overthrow.com and it was deleted, could someone please explain why a direct link to their main newsportal was deleted? Why do we have to deal with censorship from wikipedia like this all the time? http://www.overthrow.com is a legitimate link for the NSM USA article. Can someone please explain?

:Well, the fact that they describe themselves as "libertarian socialists" is laughable, but other than that I agree; it seems perfectly legitimate. I'll put it back.

:Incidentally, for a second I'd thought you were talking about censorship by the NSM, which would be hilarious, since I happen to have [http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v350/RenegadePaladin/Politics/NaziHypocrisy.jpg this screenshot] of their forums, in which one of their forum admins invites open discussion of views, and not ten minutes later bans someone for questioning him. *Chuckle* [[User:Rogue 9|Rogue 9]] 17:22, 17 October 2005 (UTC)

:Hmmmm. Never mind; someone's already put it back. 132.241.245.132, if you don't mind, I'd like to know just why you're removing links so inherently damaging to the NSM since you claim to hate them so much. Or was the "I hate these guys" edit lable intended to refer to the conservatives you were comparing to Nazis in the edit? [[User:Rogue 9|Rogue 9]] 17:24, 17 October 2005 (UTC)

== 25 points ==

:''(moved from [[Talk talk:National Socialist Movement (United States)]] -[[User:Willmcw|Willmcw]] 21:49, 18 October 2005 (UTC))''

Studying hate groups happens to be a hobby of mine, and I know a little something about them. Twice now I have tried to update the page of the NSM88 to list their 25 points. While these points do in fact share some points with the original points of facism they have been targetted at the United States specifically. The information I listed I obtained personally by representatives affiliated with that organization. Twice now within an hour my updates have been removed. Why have my updates been removed? If it is a question of legitimacy that is one thing. If it is blind fear, hate, or dislike of the hate group this action is both hypocritical and irresponsible. <small>&mdash;''The preceding [[Wikipedia:Sign your posts on talk pages|unsigned]] comment was added by'' [[User:Klauth|Klauth]] ([[User talk:Klauth|talk]]&nbsp;&bull;&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Klauth|contribs]]) 21:40, October 18, 2005 .</small><!--Inserted with Template:Unsigned-->

:I removed it because it is a long block of source material. If it is not copyrighted then it should go on [[Wikisource]]. If it is copyrighted then we should just provide a link. Either way we can summarize the info, highlighting their principal points. Thanks, -[[User:Willmcw|Willmcw]] 21:48, 18 October 2005 (UTC)

::Fine let's include a link and some reference, by looking at it it becomes obvious that they are socialist...
-[[User:Jbamb|Jbamb]] 17:53, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

:::[[User:Jbamb|Jbamb]], I would appreciate if you could stop pushing this "Nazism-is-leftist" idea is spice of all commons sense. Nazism is almost universally considered far-right wing, and I see absolutely nothing that suggests that this National Socialist Movement is considered left-wing, be it by itself, or by others. If you have personal political theories, you are welcome to start a blog. Thank you. [[User:Rama|Rama]] 18:11, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

::::Rama, you're wrong. Read the 25 points... particularly 6, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 23, and 25 which could be mistaken for planks of the DNC platform. You're consideration of Neo-Nazis as right-wing goes against all evidence. Who on the right would suggest to nationalize all industry? -[[User:Jbamb|Jbamb]] 18:17, 16 December 2005 (UTC)


Here's the link [http://www.nsm88.com/25points/25pointsengl.html]

Well, the Nazis would. Furthermore, [[User:Jbamb|Jbamb]], I would like to call your attention on the [[WP:3RR]] rule, and also caution you not to call other contributors "vandals" merely because they do not share your point of view. Failure to comply with this will result in sanctions. Thank you for your understanding. [[User:Rama|Rama]] 18:19, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

Sanction me for what? Contributing and you erasing without discussion? Discuss the point here, fine, but you are unilaterally erasing because you have your own point of view and want to push it with wikipedia. This is propagandapedia. -[[User:Jbamb|Jbamb]] 18:21, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

: Sanctions for violating the 3RR rule, for calling me a vandal and now for "propagandapedia". Consider this a last warning. [[User:Rama|Rama]] 18:26, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

== Edit warring ==

I've blocked for 24 hours [[User:Jbamb]], for edit warring and violation of the rule against doing frequent reverts (3RR). In addition, I have protected the page, for it is obvious that this user was politically motivated and I fear he or she may ask for help from other people similarly disrespectuous of Wikipedia rules. [[User:David.Monniaux|David.Monniaux]] 18:33, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

However, I must question the "revert-then-protect" sequence here, to ensure that a preferred version gets protected. That seems to be a direct contradiction to protection policy. Also, it looked like more than one 3RR violator. Were all blocked? Not that I'm sympathetic to the agenda of [[User:Jbamb]] (far from it)... [[User:CarbonCopy|CarbonCopy]] [[User_talk:CarbonCopy|(talk)]] 18:37, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
:[[Wikipedia:Protection policy]] allows for admins to revert to a version from before the 3RR conflict.
:*'' In cases of 3RR violations, admins may protect the version immediately before the first violation i.e. immediately before the first occurrence of a fourth revert. See Wikipedia talk:Revert#The protection option for the discussion on this.''
:I don't see any other 3RR violations. -[[User:Willmcw|Willmcw]] 20:18, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

::2 things. After being warned, I made no changes yet was blocked anyway. Second, is that Rama was also a 3RR violator here. This belongs in content disputes, not with sysops violating 3RR, and then calling another sysop to block despite compliance with a warning, and the proceding to protect the page despite a legitimate content dispute.

== Socialism, Facism, etc. ==

Alright. First off, Mussolini defined facism as the merging of state and corporate interests. That's definately right-wing.

However, it's semi-incorrect to say that socialism and nazism are polar opposites. Anarchism and facism are opposites. Socialism and capitalism are opposites.

Also, all forms of totalitarianism are fairly similar, whether they be socialist, facist or capitalist in idealogy. After all, Hitler and Stalin would have agreed on most issues relating to individual freedom.

Anyway, its interesting to note that many neo-nazi groups plaugerize leftist theory, attempting to portray pro working-class sentiment. Since they believe that Jews controll all corporations, media, government, etc., they see Jews as the ruling class, and whites as the opressed underclass. Thus, Marxist theory fits into their rhetoric almost perfectly.

If the NSM's 25-point program is being discussed, it's important to note that it does call for affordable healthcare, a liveable wage, a flat tax, etc. If you only look at the economic parts of the document, it does sound pretty leftist.

While NSM's version of nazism does differ from the original version regarding their views on the economy, it's highly ignorant to define them as left-wing. -[[User:Rusty86|Rusty86]]

PS: If one attempts to define facism as left-wing, s/he runs into several flaws. Namely, anarchism and facism are polar opposites. If facism is placed at one end of the spectrum, then anarchism is at the other. Thus, if one defines facism as left-wing, s/he seem to be defining anarchism, its opposite, as right-wing. -Rusty

: Especially since marxist theories are fundamentally internationalist, while all forms of fascism are stridently ultra-nationalist. Furthermore, the historical evolution to nazism originates mostly in far-right movements (the ''Stahlhlem'' factions and such); while a popular component of nazism did exist (incarnated in the SA), they were wiped out when they started annoying conservative elements of the society like the Army and the big industry. [[User:Rama|Rama]] 22:16, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

I changed the wording to a more nuetral statement. In today's Lansing State Journal article about NSM, Bill White outright advocated a form of socialism and used the phrase judeo-capitalism (i assume a play off of Judeo-Christian). [[User:Jcmiller|Jcmiller]]

== NPOV ==

Many people are in here agreeing with part or all of what I am saying. To say that the National Socialist Movement is not socialist is absurd. Economically they meet up. Deigning to assume what their intentions are is, likewise, absurd. What's the difference between NSM and socialism? Their nationalistic bent? Then China would be right-wing. Their authoritarian desires? Then the USSR would be right-wing. I see the labeling of neo-nazis as right-wing more an attempt by left-wing folks to pawn off their whackos on the right. It would be at least intellectually honest to get rid of the left/right monniker, calling it rightist is factually wrong lest there be no real definition of those terms. -[[User:Jbamb|Jbamb]] 21:05, 17 December 2005 (UTC)
:Please read [[Wikipedia:no original research]] and [[Wikipedia:NPOV]]. Your arguments are not in accord with Wikipeida policies and guidelines. -[[User:Willmcw|Willmcw]] 22:22, 17 December 2005 (UTC)

::I've read NPOV, I've read no original research, and just because you can find some dude somewhere that says what you say doesn't make it right. Look at their economic policies, THEY ARE SOCIALIST. There can be NO intelligent debate about it, period. To say otherwise indicates that the difference between socialists and conservatives is that conservatives kill people. That's all fine and good, but is that an NPOV? I think not. Not to mention it's also false. -- [[User:Jbamb|Jbamb]] 20:32, 28 December 2005 (UTC)

:::So you're saying that Adolf Hitler and the other National Socialists were leftists? That is not the conventional view, and encyclopedias are all about conventional wisdom. -[[User:Willmcw|Willmcw]] 23:41, 28 December 2005 (UTC)

::::I'm saying they are socialists, which certainly doesn't make them right. The have "socialist" in all their party names, Marx in all their party literature. The only thing they seem to do different is have a racial component. -- [[User:Jbamb|Jbamb]] 20:15, 30 December 2005 (UTC)
:::::"Right" and "left" don't have fixed meanings. Nazism, though also called "national socialism", is unuversally acknowledged as a political movement of the fascist right. -[[User:Willmcw|Willmcw]] 07:35, 31 December 2005 (UTC)

The "National Socialist Movement" refers to the NSDAP, whose only (or one of the rare) unchanging points was radical hostility to social-democracy, internationalism and communism. Focusing on the word "socialist" to suggest that the movement is left-wing is pure sophism. [[User:Rama|Rama]] 14:20, 31 December 2005 (UTC)

*Their 25 points makes it clear what side of the economic spectrum they land on. Or is reading sophism too. -- [[User:Jbamb|Jbamb]] 14:49, 31 December 2005 (UTC)

:: Suggesting that the Right has only liberalism as economic politics certainly is sophism too. Compare noe-conservatism with ultra-liberalism. [[User:Rama|Rama]] 16:46, 31 December 2005 (UTC)

== Leftism ==

Leftism is founded in a belief in equality. Radical leftism (ie socialism, communism, anarchism) calls for the destruction of social hierarchy and the class system.

However, nazism calls for the creation of a rigidly enforced class system, based upon race, religion, sexuality, etc.

While it's fair to say facism and authoritarian communism are two sides of the same coin, it's utterly innacurate to label them as the same thing. -[[User:Rusty86|Rusty86]]

:Fine then let's not call it a left or a right issue and let's just call it what it is... -- [[User:Jbamb|Jbamb]] 03:29, 18 December 2005 (UTC)

::In America, the right-wing has traditionally opposed integration, civil rights, affirmative action, etc. For this reason, neo-nazis are commonly considered right-wing, even if they aren't strongly pro-capitalist.

::Also, American patriotism is viewed as right-wing. While neo-nazis may not be acting in the America's best interest, they certainly view themselves as ultra-patriots.-[[User:Rusty86|Rusty86]]

:::Then call them nationalist, they certainly aren't right-wing. The south was democratic (left-wing) until the 70s. It was the GOP that brought about desegregation, the civil rights act, and the voting rights act. Comparing fascism and anarchism is absurd, unless you are prepared to say communism (not exactly anarchy) is right-wing also. -- [[User:Jbamb|Jbamb]] 04:43, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

::::There are those who would say that, at the time the Republicans were on the side of the angels, the Democrats were the right-wingers. But frankly, right- and left-wing are poor characterisations for a worldwide encyclopaedia, for two reasons. Firstly, what is "right" or "left" differs from country to country. And secondly, America has '''no''' mainstream left-wing is it's understood outside the nation. Should we say "The Republicans are right-wing and the Democrats are less right-wing"? It's ridiculous. We're better off leaving out anything like that. [[User:MarkGallagher|fuddlemark]] ([[User talk:MarkGallagher|fuddle me!]]) 05:20, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

:::::And I agree with this position. Calling them nationalist is specific enough. -- [[User:Jbamb|Jbamb]] 05:27, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

::::::The article didn't define the NSM as right-wing in the first place. Is there a problem with the article as it is presently worded? [[User:Rusty|Rusty]]

:::::::The so-called "edit war" was over that issue, and the protected version seems to have grabbed a neutral version. - [[User:Jbamb|Jbamb]] 15:32, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

== Protection removed ==

Semi-protection has been removed from this article, as it is not meant to be used for edit wars. [[User:Fuzheado|Fuzheado]] | [[User talk:Fuzheado|Talk]] 00:12, 24 December 2005 (UTC)

== Recent Revert ==

I reverted the edits by 72.148.105.57 because they were not only unsourced, but also pretty heavily-pov, like a challenge to the NSM from another Nazi Party. Not that I'm particularly bothered by infighting between Nazis, that's just not what Wikipedia is for. [[User:Fightindaman|Fightindaman]] 05:00, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

The infighting between Jeff Schoep's faction and Bill White's faction is exclusively online. Expect it here weekly. [[User:Sadena|Sadena]] 22:29, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

== removing north toledo protest section ==

I'm removing the following section:
:On [[October 15]] [[2005]] the group planned to march in [[Toledo, Ohio|North Toledo]], [[Ohio]], a predominantly [[African-American]] neighborhood. The NSM (who numbered between fifteen and twenty), cancelled their march after over 600 people gathered to counter-protest. After the group left, the counter-demonstrators became violent, fought with police, threw [[baseball]]-sized rocks at police cars, and set fire to a building which was known as a police bar. Looters took advantage of the chaos to commit robberies in a few nearby shops. [http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/10/15/nazi.march/index.html]
In several details, it is inconsistent with or unsupported by the reference given. I'm not convinced it's worth fixing, but if someone else wants to bring it in line with the source given and re-add it, that's fine with me. --[[User:Amcbride|Allen]] 05:23, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

::It's too important to remove outright. Let's trim it down to bare facts. -[[User:Will Beback|Will Beback]] 18:26, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
::Also, the section might be broadened to something like "Demonstrations", with some other notable incidents included. -[[User:Will Beback|Will Beback]] 18:29, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

:::You're probably right, Will, except that the neighborhood being predominantly African-American was one of the details unsupported by the CNN link. I clicked on the "North Toledo" link, which is actually a link to "Toledo, Ohio", and I learned two things: first, that article describes North Toledo as "racially diverse", and also that it has a few paragraphs on the riots itself. I'll remove the African-American thing, add a brief sentence about arrests, and add a link to the section in the Toledo article, so that Wikipedians' efforts in covering these events can be focused in one place. --[[User:Amcbride|Allen]] 20:11, 2 August 2006 (UTC)


== Error in the locked text ==
In the History section, [[James Mason]] should point at [[James Mason (National Socialist)]], not [[James Mason]]. As it currently stands, we are (presumably incorrectly) accusing a famous actor of being a neo-Nazi. 01:00, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
:Fixed. Thanks! [[User:Kafziel|Kafziel]] <sup>[[User talk:Kafziel|Talk]]</sup> 01:04, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

Revision as of 01:04, 18 April 2007

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Wow, wild ass assertions about people being Jews and claims of DNA evidence without proof? Most of what has been posted below concerning the doings of various NSM members have not been verified. You call this site an encyclopedia? Get real.

This article is a bunch of jew shit. No wonder so many assert that wikipedia is a jew project.

who keeps deleating updated sections from the nsm88 topic?

This is a lie. There has not been a mass exodus of members. In fact the SPLC says they are the fastest growing white nationalist group in America.

^ Oh my gawd, who ever could've guessed that neo-Nazis would be semi-literate morons with a third grade mastery of the English language? Murple 21:23, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

This article should be merged with National Socialist Movement (US). I don't know exactly which is the preferred name. Bogdan | Talk 12:38, 17 Feb 2005 (UTC)

An anonymous user added this to the article: Bogdan | Talk 23:50, 24 Feb 2005 (UTC)

In what is referred to as the 2004 exodus approximately 30% of the NSM membership resigned after demanding the impeachment of Jeff Schoep. The current NSM exists with around 30 units in the USA and 3 overseas. What was once a functional organization has been reduced to a mere shell of it's previous status in the "Movement". Units are made up of anywhere from 1 member with a PO Box to around 5. The NSM membership seems to have a turn over rate of about 6 months. It's estimated that the NSM has approximately 50 members at any given time. No more than 20 have ever appeared at their public events. Often the NSM rallies nearby other successful organizations drawing off their membership to make a showing.
The NSM attends rallies and racially aligned events around the USA at which times it is able to attain photographs with supporters and other organization members. The heavily hyped "Viking Youth" program is made up of 4 to 8 youth spread across the nation so that no three ever attend meetings together. The photos of youth touted by Jeff Schoep as proff of his youth members are in reality those young peple who attended a rally of the Virginia based KKK. Not one of those in the photos are actual NSM Viking youth. There is also no real training ground for members or youth for that matter as stated on the NSM website. At best "Viking Youth" is a figment of Schoeps imagination and hopes for gaining uninformed teens.
The NSM Exodus began in 2004 after the annual congress. Unit Leaders from around the USA met in Kansas and organized to demand the impeachment of Schoep due to mismanagement of donations and funds raised. Schoep was also accused of drunkenness, and adultery with another members woman. Many accusations were made public and included allowing homosexual, bi-sexual, and non-white members into the organization. Specifically Michael Blevins aka Von Bluvens took over the NSMradio program as minister of radio propaganda. It was proven through DNA evidence that Mike Blevins was in fact a jewish semite. Other allegations included letters written by Schoep to a known informant named Frazier Glenn Miller. Miller testified against "Movement" leaders in the Ft. Smith sedition trials and went into the Federal Witness Protection Program.

Jeff Schoep was exposed as a fraud and convicted felon during the 2004 exodus when court documents of his conviction were made public. He had burglarized a home while his children sat in the backseat of his car. Schoep is the father of 7 children by several different women and lives off government assistance. He has been shown to be nothing more than a liar and fraud who has been living off the dues and donations of his members without any oversight. The current NSM is nothing more than a Jeff Schoep cult and any real activists have moved on to join other organizations or remain independent.

68.34.158.41

I don't know where the IP is. You're a member, I'm a member, etc. The NSM *had* a paramilitary training camp, and the fellow running it raped some 13 and 14 year old boys. Now, they no longer have the camp. His name was Michael Faust, and there is a citation to an article on him in the main article.

Run a background check on Schoep. He's a multiply convicted felon, actually. So is Angela Foxworth.

Here are the court files:

Record 1: Identification Name: JEFFREY STEPHEN SCHOEP [Perform Background Check] Aliases: SCHOEP, JEFFREY; SCHOEP, JEFF STEPHEN; SCHOEP, JEFFREY STEPHAN; SCHOEP, JEFFREY STEPHEN; Source: Minnesota Sex: MALE DOB: 11/12/1973 Race: WHITE Offense Court Name RAMSEY DIST COURT Case Number: 94016200 Offense ID MN_DPS186025001001 Offense Code 609.595.1.3 Offense DAMAGE TO PROP-1ST DEG-VALUE REDUCED OVER $500 Offense Type MISDEMEANOR Disposition Date 04/28/1995

Record 2: Identification Name: JEFFREY STEPHEN SCHOEP [Perform Background Check] Aliases: SCHOEP, JEFFREY; SCHOEP, JEFF STEPHEN; SCHOEP, JEFFREY STEPHAN; SCHOEP, JEFFREY STEPHEN; Source: Minnesota Sex: MALE DOB: 11/12/1973 Race: WHITE Offense Court Name SHERBURNE DIST COURT Case Number: 98006844 Offense ID MN_DPS186025002001 Offense Code 609.582 Offense BURGLARY Offense Type FELONY Disposition Date 11/19/1998

Record 3: Identification Name: JEFFREY STEPHEN SCHOEP [Perform Background Check] Aliases: SCHOEP, JEFFREY; SCHOEP, JEFF STEPHEN; SCHOEP, JEFFREY STEPHAN; SCHOEP, JEFFREY STEPHEN; Source: Minnesota Sex: MALE DOB: 11/12/1973 Race: WHITE Offense Court Name RAMSEY DIST COURT Case Number: 94016200 Offense ID MN_DPS186025001001 Offense Code 609.595.1.3 Offense DAMAGE TO PROP-1ST DEG-VALUE REDUCED OVER $500 Offense Type MISDEMEANOR Disposition Date 04/28/1995

Record 4: Identification Name: JEFFREY STEPHEN SCHOEP [Perform Background Check] Aliases: SCHOEP, JEFFREY; SCHOEP, JEFF STEPHEN; SCHOEP, JEFFREY STEPHAN; SCHOEP, JEFFREY STEPHEN; Source: Minnesota Sex: MALE DOB: 11/12/1973 Race: WHITE Offense Court Name SHERBURNE DIST COURT Case Number: 98006844 Offense ID MN_DPS186025002001 Offense Code 609.582 Offense BURGLARY Offense Type FELONY Disposition Date 11/19/1998

The proof of the amount of members comes from a statement by Cliff Herrington as to the number of copies of the member newspaper being published at its peak. If you need some sources as to the current number of members, I'll post some.


  • The NSM does not have paramilitary training camps. This is simply untrue. I know since I am a member.
  • Where is the proof of alleged criminal activity of Jeff Schoep?
  • Where is the proof of the amount of members?

This article is extremely biased.

Some of the items are disputed. I think this should be brought forward for consideration instead of just disregarding it.

(above edits by 68.34.158.41 -- Rama 21:17, 22 September 2005 (UTC) )

68.34.158.41, you cannot dismiss these statements by asking questions.
  • One of the first sentences by [1] is that NSM members are "racist skinheads and other young white supremacists, who join in NSM activities ranging from literature distribution to armed paramilitary training."
  • Details about Jeff Schoep are available just above and in [2], you are free to ask this court for duplicates of the documents
  • The number of members is given in [3]: "In 2004, it has between 100 and 200 members and hangers-on in 38 chapters."
If you want to make a statement about the nature of the activities of NSM88, you are free to contribute photographs of events or meetings under the CC-by-sa-2.5 licence. Rama 21:17, 22 September 2005 (UTC)
Regarding another point raised in a comment on the article page (comments belong here, not there) about the name of the group. On the home page of NSM, http://www.nsm88.com/index2.html, it says "The National Socialist Movement (aka NSM88) is the largest Nazi Party operating in the United States of America today." -Willmcw 22:00, 22 September 2005 (UTC)

Headline text

NSM membership figures

I just added about 18 links to articles and reference on membership numbers, informers in the group, recent activities, paramiliary camps, etc.

Enjoy.

There is a statement out there from Clfif Herrington, who produced the NSM newspaper for members, that he was producing 400 copies a month. Thus, the NSM did not have more than 400 paying members at its peak.

The NSM did have paramilitary training camps. A fellow in Wisconsin went to jail for running them. There are old news articles out there on that for those who wish to look.

--

Let's leave off the membership numbers figures, which are given as facts in this article, until we have more information. Where does ADL say they (NSM) have no more than 6 members in any one unit? Also, if we quote figures given by the ADL we should say "according to the ADL, the NSM has X numbers of members" rather than simply stating it as fact.

I also do not believe that the NSM has Paramilitary Training Camps. The reason I do not believe so is that I feel that if they really did have such the media would have reported it. Like it or not, but the media loves articles about Nazis and Neo-Nazis because it's sure be noticed. 196.207.37.253 22:18, 22 September 2005 (UTC)

The NSM site itself advocates "up of five-man cells" ("This is a very basic outline of legitimate targets for an underground organization. Ideally, such a formation should be made up of five-man cells", [4]). Did you read your own site ? Rama 22:24, 22 September 2005 (UTC)
Oh, also, do you contest the amount of the membership fee ? If yes, please use your inside knowledge to correct the amount rather than deleting the information. Rama 22:30, 22 September 2005 (UTC)


68.34.158.41 16:14, 23 September 2005 (UTC)The allegations of Jeff Schoeps criminal record is provided by the ADL. I think it should should read "according to the ADL".

No, it should not, unless we have reasons to believe that what ADL says is wrong. Rama 16:16, 23 September 2005 (UTC)

68.34.158.41 16:22, 23 September 2005 (UTC)Has the ADL provided proof of their allegations? Just because they say it doen't make it so. They are not an unimpeachable source.

Do you have any reason to contest what they are saying ? Rama 16:42, 23 September 2005 (UTC)

68.34.158.41 16:22, 23 September 2005 (UTC) "Children are endoctrined and taken into paramilitary activities." This is stated as if it is a fact. It hasn't been proven as fact.

Then be all means do make a photographic coverage of the average activities of this "Nazi Party", upload them on Wikipedia under a Free licence (I recommend Cc-by-sa-2.5) and we will have original material to discuss. For now, all sources I have seen point to paramilitary activities and the young age of members. Rama 16:42, 23 September 2005 (UTC)

68.34.158.41 16:29, 23 September 2005 (UTC) The NSM entries should be short and to the point without trivial mud slinging or grandstanding. Can I make it any more clear than that?

Yes, I suppose so. What you are saying is either wrong ("The NSM entries should be short"; how so ? If we have things to say about them, we will), either very vague and general ("without trivial mud slinging or grandstanding"; yes, quite obviously). Rama 16:42, 23 September 2005 (UTC)

Rama, ask yourself this: If the NSM really is recruiting children into paramilitary action then why has the press ignored it? Do you think the press would ignore such a sensational story? Why is it that whenever the NSM passes out leaflets and DOES make the news the press suppresses the fact that they recruit children into paramilitary camps? Do you think that the press believes a few leaflets left on windshields is more newsworthy than neo-nazi paramilitary camps?

As of the numbers, if you wish to quote the ADL figures simply say "according to the ADL ...". That is not to say that their figures are not correct, but for an encyclopedia to list it as fact gives the impression that the ADL numbers can not be refuted. 196.207.45.254 18:08, 23 September 2005 (UTC)

132.241.245.132

You're not the only one who hates Nazis. Given what they've done, this is a perfectly understandable reaction; I do myself. But using their stigma as a weapon and Wikipedia as a platform to smear those whose legitimate political viewpoints you don't like is unacceptable. Rogue 9 05:31, 16 October 2005 (UTC)


  • Censorship on NSM

I tried to add the National Socialist Movement USA newsportal: http://www.overthrow.com and it was deleted, could someone please explain why a direct link to their main newsportal was deleted? Why do we have to deal with censorship from wikipedia like this all the time? http://www.overthrow.com is a legitimate link for the NSM USA article. Can someone please explain?

Well, the fact that they describe themselves as "libertarian socialists" is laughable, but other than that I agree; it seems perfectly legitimate. I'll put it back.
Incidentally, for a second I'd thought you were talking about censorship by the NSM, which would be hilarious, since I happen to have this screenshot of their forums, in which one of their forum admins invites open discussion of views, and not ten minutes later bans someone for questioning him. *Chuckle* Rogue 9 17:22, 17 October 2005 (UTC)
Hmmmm. Never mind; someone's already put it back. 132.241.245.132, if you don't mind, I'd like to know just why you're removing links so inherently damaging to the NSM since you claim to hate them so much. Or was the "I hate these guys" edit lable intended to refer to the conservatives you were comparing to Nazis in the edit? Rogue 9 17:24, 17 October 2005 (UTC)

25 points

(moved from Talk talk:National Socialist Movement (United States) -Willmcw 21:49, 18 October 2005 (UTC))

Studying hate groups happens to be a hobby of mine, and I know a little something about them. Twice now I have tried to update the page of the NSM88 to list their 25 points. While these points do in fact share some points with the original points of facism they have been targetted at the United States specifically. The information I listed I obtained personally by representatives affiliated with that organization. Twice now within an hour my updates have been removed. Why have my updates been removed? If it is a question of legitimacy that is one thing. If it is blind fear, hate, or dislike of the hate group this action is both hypocritical and irresponsible. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Klauth (talk • contribs) 21:40, October 18, 2005 .

I removed it because it is a long block of source material. If it is not copyrighted then it should go on Wikisource. If it is copyrighted then we should just provide a link. Either way we can summarize the info, highlighting their principal points. Thanks, -Willmcw 21:48, 18 October 2005 (UTC)
Fine let's include a link and some reference, by looking at it it becomes obvious that they are socialist...

-Jbamb 17:53, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

Jbamb, I would appreciate if you could stop pushing this "Nazism-is-leftist" idea is spice of all commons sense. Nazism is almost universally considered far-right wing, and I see absolutely nothing that suggests that this National Socialist Movement is considered left-wing, be it by itself, or by others. If you have personal political theories, you are welcome to start a blog. Thank you. Rama 18:11, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
Rama, you're wrong. Read the 25 points... particularly 6, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 23, and 25 which could be mistaken for planks of the DNC platform. You're consideration of Neo-Nazis as right-wing goes against all evidence. Who on the right would suggest to nationalize all industry? -Jbamb 18:17, 16 December 2005 (UTC)


Here's the link [5]

Well, the Nazis would. Furthermore, Jbamb, I would like to call your attention on the WP:3RR rule, and also caution you not to call other contributors "vandals" merely because they do not share your point of view. Failure to comply with this will result in sanctions. Thank you for your understanding. Rama 18:19, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

Sanction me for what? Contributing and you erasing without discussion? Discuss the point here, fine, but you are unilaterally erasing because you have your own point of view and want to push it with wikipedia. This is propagandapedia. -Jbamb 18:21, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

Sanctions for violating the 3RR rule, for calling me a vandal and now for "propagandapedia". Consider this a last warning. Rama 18:26, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

Edit warring

I've blocked for 24 hours User:Jbamb, for edit warring and violation of the rule against doing frequent reverts (3RR). In addition, I have protected the page, for it is obvious that this user was politically motivated and I fear he or she may ask for help from other people similarly disrespectuous of Wikipedia rules. David.Monniaux 18:33, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

However, I must question the "revert-then-protect" sequence here, to ensure that a preferred version gets protected. That seems to be a direct contradiction to protection policy. Also, it looked like more than one 3RR violator. Were all blocked? Not that I'm sympathetic to the agenda of User:Jbamb (far from it)... CarbonCopy (talk) 18:37, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Protection policy allows for admins to revert to a version from before the 3RR conflict.
  • In cases of 3RR violations, admins may protect the version immediately before the first violation i.e. immediately before the first occurrence of a fourth revert. See Wikipedia talk:Revert#The protection option for the discussion on this.
I don't see any other 3RR violations. -Willmcw 20:18, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
2 things. After being warned, I made no changes yet was blocked anyway. Second, is that Rama was also a 3RR violator here. This belongs in content disputes, not with sysops violating 3RR, and then calling another sysop to block despite compliance with a warning, and the proceding to protect the page despite a legitimate content dispute.

Socialism, Facism, etc.

Alright. First off, Mussolini defined facism as the merging of state and corporate interests. That's definately right-wing.

However, it's semi-incorrect to say that socialism and nazism are polar opposites. Anarchism and facism are opposites. Socialism and capitalism are opposites.

Also, all forms of totalitarianism are fairly similar, whether they be socialist, facist or capitalist in idealogy. After all, Hitler and Stalin would have agreed on most issues relating to individual freedom.

Anyway, its interesting to note that many neo-nazi groups plaugerize leftist theory, attempting to portray pro working-class sentiment. Since they believe that Jews controll all corporations, media, government, etc., they see Jews as the ruling class, and whites as the opressed underclass. Thus, Marxist theory fits into their rhetoric almost perfectly.

If the NSM's 25-point program is being discussed, it's important to note that it does call for affordable healthcare, a liveable wage, a flat tax, etc. If you only look at the economic parts of the document, it does sound pretty leftist.

While NSM's version of nazism does differ from the original version regarding their views on the economy, it's highly ignorant to define them as left-wing. -Rusty86

PS: If one attempts to define facism as left-wing, s/he runs into several flaws. Namely, anarchism and facism are polar opposites. If facism is placed at one end of the spectrum, then anarchism is at the other. Thus, if one defines facism as left-wing, s/he seem to be defining anarchism, its opposite, as right-wing. -Rusty

Especially since marxist theories are fundamentally internationalist, while all forms of fascism are stridently ultra-nationalist. Furthermore, the historical evolution to nazism originates mostly in far-right movements (the Stahlhlem factions and such); while a popular component of nazism did exist (incarnated in the SA), they were wiped out when they started annoying conservative elements of the society like the Army and the big industry. Rama 22:16, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

I changed the wording to a more nuetral statement. In today's Lansing State Journal article about NSM, Bill White outright advocated a form of socialism and used the phrase judeo-capitalism (i assume a play off of Judeo-Christian). Jcmiller

NPOV

Many people are in here agreeing with part or all of what I am saying. To say that the National Socialist Movement is not socialist is absurd. Economically they meet up. Deigning to assume what their intentions are is, likewise, absurd. What's the difference between NSM and socialism? Their nationalistic bent? Then China would be right-wing. Their authoritarian desires? Then the USSR would be right-wing. I see the labeling of neo-nazis as right-wing more an attempt by left-wing folks to pawn off their whackos on the right. It would be at least intellectually honest to get rid of the left/right monniker, calling it rightist is factually wrong lest there be no real definition of those terms. -Jbamb 21:05, 17 December 2005 (UTC)

Please read Wikipedia:no original research and Wikipedia:NPOV. Your arguments are not in accord with Wikipeida policies and guidelines. -Willmcw 22:22, 17 December 2005 (UTC)
I've read NPOV, I've read no original research, and just because you can find some dude somewhere that says what you say doesn't make it right. Look at their economic policies, THEY ARE SOCIALIST. There can be NO intelligent debate about it, period. To say otherwise indicates that the difference between socialists and conservatives is that conservatives kill people. That's all fine and good, but is that an NPOV? I think not. Not to mention it's also false. -- Jbamb 20:32, 28 December 2005 (UTC)
So you're saying that Adolf Hitler and the other National Socialists were leftists? That is not the conventional view, and encyclopedias are all about conventional wisdom. -Willmcw 23:41, 28 December 2005 (UTC)
I'm saying they are socialists, which certainly doesn't make them right. The have "socialist" in all their party names, Marx in all their party literature. The only thing they seem to do different is have a racial component. -- Jbamb 20:15, 30 December 2005 (UTC)
"Right" and "left" don't have fixed meanings. Nazism, though also called "national socialism", is unuversally acknowledged as a political movement of the fascist right. -Willmcw 07:35, 31 December 2005 (UTC)

The "National Socialist Movement" refers to the NSDAP, whose only (or one of the rare) unchanging points was radical hostility to social-democracy, internationalism and communism. Focusing on the word "socialist" to suggest that the movement is left-wing is pure sophism. Rama 14:20, 31 December 2005 (UTC)

Suggesting that the Right has only liberalism as economic politics certainly is sophism too. Compare noe-conservatism with ultra-liberalism. Rama 16:46, 31 December 2005 (UTC)

Leftism

Leftism is founded in a belief in equality. Radical leftism (ie socialism, communism, anarchism) calls for the destruction of social hierarchy and the class system.

However, nazism calls for the creation of a rigidly enforced class system, based upon race, religion, sexuality, etc.

While it's fair to say facism and authoritarian communism are two sides of the same coin, it's utterly innacurate to label them as the same thing. -Rusty86

Fine then let's not call it a left or a right issue and let's just call it what it is... -- Jbamb 03:29, 18 December 2005 (UTC)
In America, the right-wing has traditionally opposed integration, civil rights, affirmative action, etc. For this reason, neo-nazis are commonly considered right-wing, even if they aren't strongly pro-capitalist.
Also, American patriotism is viewed as right-wing. While neo-nazis may not be acting in the America's best interest, they certainly view themselves as ultra-patriots.-Rusty86
Then call them nationalist, they certainly aren't right-wing. The south was democratic (left-wing) until the 70s. It was the GOP that brought about desegregation, the civil rights act, and the voting rights act. Comparing fascism and anarchism is absurd, unless you are prepared to say communism (not exactly anarchy) is right-wing also. -- Jbamb 04:43, 19 December 2005 (UTC)
There are those who would say that, at the time the Republicans were on the side of the angels, the Democrats were the right-wingers. But frankly, right- and left-wing are poor characterisations for a worldwide encyclopaedia, for two reasons. Firstly, what is "right" or "left" differs from country to country. And secondly, America has no mainstream left-wing is it's understood outside the nation. Should we say "The Republicans are right-wing and the Democrats are less right-wing"? It's ridiculous. We're better off leaving out anything like that. fuddlemark (fuddle me!) 05:20, 19 December 2005 (UTC)
And I agree with this position. Calling them nationalist is specific enough. -- Jbamb 05:27, 19 December 2005 (UTC)
The article didn't define the NSM as right-wing in the first place. Is there a problem with the article as it is presently worded? Rusty
The so-called "edit war" was over that issue, and the protected version seems to have grabbed a neutral version. - Jbamb 15:32, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

Protection removed

Semi-protection has been removed from this article, as it is not meant to be used for edit wars. Fuzheado | Talk 00:12, 24 December 2005 (UTC)

Recent Revert

I reverted the edits by 72.148.105.57 because they were not only unsourced, but also pretty heavily-pov, like a challenge to the NSM from another Nazi Party. Not that I'm particularly bothered by infighting between Nazis, that's just not what Wikipedia is for. Fightindaman 05:00, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

The infighting between Jeff Schoep's faction and Bill White's faction is exclusively online. Expect it here weekly. Sadena 22:29, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

removing north toledo protest section

I'm removing the following section:

On October 15 2005 the group planned to march in North Toledo, Ohio, a predominantly African-American neighborhood. The NSM (who numbered between fifteen and twenty), cancelled their march after over 600 people gathered to counter-protest. After the group left, the counter-demonstrators became violent, fought with police, threw baseball-sized rocks at police cars, and set fire to a building which was known as a police bar. Looters took advantage of the chaos to commit robberies in a few nearby shops. [6]

In several details, it is inconsistent with or unsupported by the reference given. I'm not convinced it's worth fixing, but if someone else wants to bring it in line with the source given and re-add it, that's fine with me. --Allen 05:23, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

It's too important to remove outright. Let's trim it down to bare facts. -Will Beback 18:26, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
Also, the section might be broadened to something like "Demonstrations", with some other notable incidents included. -Will Beback 18:29, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
You're probably right, Will, except that the neighborhood being predominantly African-American was one of the details unsupported by the CNN link. I clicked on the "North Toledo" link, which is actually a link to "Toledo, Ohio", and I learned two things: first, that article describes North Toledo as "racially diverse", and also that it has a few paragraphs on the riots itself. I'll remove the African-American thing, add a brief sentence about arrests, and add a link to the section in the Toledo article, so that Wikipedians' efforts in covering these events can be focused in one place. --Allen 20:11, 2 August 2006 (UTC)


Error in the locked text

In the History section, James Mason should point at James Mason (National Socialist), not James Mason. As it currently stands, we are (presumably incorrectly) accusing a famous actor of being a neo-Nazi. 01:00, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

Fixed. Thanks! Kafziel Talk 01:04, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
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