Talk:Hero: Difference between revisions

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"A hero is the name of a man or woman (or being) who is able to do what no other can do."

That's not the standard definition given in a dictionary. Perhaps you're thinking of superheros. (but even they can often do what other superheros can do, for instance fly or deflect bullets). I'll hold to my dying day that Harriet Tubman was a hero, and all she did was what (some) other people didn't have the courage to do. I think a topic like this will rather quickly generate metatalk about the role of media as well as various topics in psychology, including whom people choose to lionize. --KQ

Hmmm. That definition of hero would actually incorporate Harriet Tubman, since her courage was out of the ordinary. "What no other can do" is a rather wide statement. It also includes "what no other (present on the site of the actual heroic deed) can do". As long as we go with widely recognized heros with significant historical staying power we should be safe from media and various late 20th century obfuscations of what a hero is. But this is of course IMHO. --Anders Törlind

Harriet Tubman is definitely a heroine, who most would agree with. Wallie 07:18, 27 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

"Can" indicates ability, and certainly anyone who thought of it could have done the same thing Harriet Tubman did. However most of them who were so inclined stopped at the thought of it, fantasizing a bit perhaps and then settling back into their relatively comfortable, secure lives. The difference is not in ability, but in willingness. --KQ

"Zero My Hero" is the name of a School House Rock song. It talks about how the number Zero is a kid's hero because it is so essential to 'going to the stars', elevating us above 'counting on our fingers and toes' etc.

This page is beginning to look nice. Hmmm. I'll insert a link to The hero with a thousand faces theory (or what one should call it). --Anders Törlind

To forestall possible objections to my addition of "Superman" to the list of famous heroes, let me point out some of his standard (non-super) heroic characteristics:

His presence in society is due to his tragic loss of home.
He works for truth, justice, and… well, you know.
He sacrifices his own personal interests (like Lois Lane) to carry on his noble mission.
He has flaws and vulnerabilities (like kryptonite and, in some variations, a tendency to see things in "black and white").

On top of all that, he is arguably the prototypical superhero of this era, rendering redundant the listing of other famous superheroes. He certainly seems to me to qualify as a modern mythic hero. -- Jeff Q 04:57, 19 May 2004 (UTC)[reply]

Anyone who rescues a large number of People[sic], either Financially[sic], Physically[sic], or Mentally[sic]. Although Hero's[sic] are usually Famous[sic], in the Age[sic] of one minute attention spans, the Media[sic] and AP probaly wont mention a hero for more than 15 seconds in a Report[sic] about the days events, unless you rescue someone who happens to be famous or important. Dead Martyrs[sic] are usually more famous and useful to their cause than living heros.

List of heros

Do we really need to have this list, putting Sir Galahad and Brother Rabbit by the same table? (And this list definitely misses Pikachu, as well as the Islamic hero who killed this nasty invader Roland.) Mikkalai 04:53, 8 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Harry Potter? Please people... --162.24.9.213 15:50, 14 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Indeed. I think we have to lose either the 'traditionally', or HP. Alai 07:33, 6 Feb 2005 (UTC)

What the HELL was Attila the Hun doing in the heroes list. Attila was an evil man who commited awful acts of genocide and rampaged through Europe with no purpose save that of plundering and raping those "weaker" than themselves. I took the liberty of deleting his name from the list.

Corrected "Maui'dib" to Muad'Dib and restored link to appropriate page, as well as added link to corresponding page on Paul Atreides. Also added Frodo Baggins, since Lord of the Rings is one of the current top heroic myths. --Visitor SKB 15:04, 28 Jun 2005

This list is bogus POV. Mahatma Ghandi? Why is he a hero? Frodo Baggins? Maybe we need to redefine hero in terms of its Campbellian mythical function. Perhaps we could limit the list to historical persons with sizable fictional or mythical curriculum vitaes--Aufidius 14:02, 16 July 2005 (UTC).[reply]

"Thank you Mario, but our princess is in another castle." Mario is SUCH a hero. I mean he just kept going to all those castles in the video game, and eating all those magic mushrooms, and growing, and stomping on monsters. And he was the main guy in the story, too! And I can totally make him get through the whole game! Plus Bob Hoskins was just so dreamy in the movie. I think he must be a hero! Maybe we can add Marty McFly from Back to the Future since he totally fixed his family by going back in time. Plus he was the main character in the story. I just love heroes, they are like, so, tooootallly greaaat. --Sbfisher 17:52, 22 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I'm working on updating the Hero-List by providing more info on why they are considered heroes & possibly adding more names, but if possible removal is being discussed should their be a continuation of the list? Also, "That means that silly names like Clinton, Bill Gates etc should not be there, primarily as they did not risk their lives, a prime requirement." The definitions of "hero" are *different*, so because Bill Gates did not risk his life, but donated over 20 billion dollars to charities, he should be removed?--Visitor 3:27, 1 January 2006

Political and military heroes

I was surprised not to find here any mention of more historical heroes, like political and military figures. Think George Washington or Ghandi. -- Beland 14:29, 21 Jan 2005 (UTC)

I agree. A section has to be added for "national heroes" as opposed to mythical or fictional heroes. Alternatively, we need two articles - Hero (mythical) vs. Hero (national). Feedback? -- IBaghdadi 26 Aug 2005

National heroes are world heroes too. I for one do not care much for Nationality. People have multiple nationalities, and change it to suit the occasion. Wasn't Washington English? Wallie 07:15, 27 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Query deletion

Why has my latest addition been reverted? Why aren't they heroes? All right, one of them is technically a heroine. PatGallacher 17:44, 2005 July 10 (UTC)

Might it make more sense to seperate the different definitions or types of heroes? This page just seems confusing since it's a conglomeration of so many different definitions (some quite different). It seems that there is a traditional mythological hero, Another type might someone who does outstanding deeds. Another might be roughly equivalent to the protagonist in a story. Glomming all the definitions together just makes for confusion. And then the hero list has all the different senses jumbled together as though they all mean the same thing.

Inclusion criteria

The list is the current state es slowly steering into a big problem. Technically, every war has thousands of heroes, even if we take the highest awards of every state. Also, there are zillions of literary heroes, not forgetting other fitional ones, like games. Not to say that one's hero is other's villain.

I suggest to discuss the criteria. mikka (t) 02:25, 3 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

The list

Why is there even a list on this page? It needs to have a much tighter criteria, or it needs to go, either to its own page, or perhaps just use list of fictional heroes. Turnstep 02:58, 16 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Why? The list is interesting. I cannot see why people object to a list of heroes. The list seems great to me. For example, I have never heard of Laura Secord, but her story made interesting reading, so I have learnt something.

If anyone objects to someone being on the list, then remove that entry, but not the entire list. If someone believes an an entry should be added, then add it!

Perhaps the list is culturally biassed. I added Audie Murphy myself, and I am not an American. These lists are usually full of American people, but this one probably has too few! As for the Japanese, Chinese, Indian, African, Eskimo, French, etc etc heroes, get them all up there! We want this to be NPOV. I cannot see the problem with a large list, as there are a lot of heroes out there. A few humerous ones too, like Donald Duck too... Please, not too many 'celebs'... Jordan, Ronaldo, Posh and Becks, Paris etc. Some may think they are not really heroes. Wallie 07:40, 26 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

The problem is that we already have a list of heroes and that is what this is turning into. Generally, articles and long lists are not kept on the same page. What we need to discuss is what makes this list different from the existing list of heroes page. Is is "traditional"? Then we need to discuss Harry Potter again :) Is it meant to be a broad cross-sampling of heroes across the ages and cultures? If so, perhaps we could limit it to one example per culture? Turnstep 23:44, 26 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

You are probably right. The "list of heroes" is for fictional heroes only, though. The list in this article contains fictional heroes and real heroes. They should be put into a separate article. I know that people object to a list of real heroes, as it is POV. But traditonal encyclopedas have such lists, and they are very subjective and cultural, depending on where the encyclopedia is written. So, I have an idea, based on your idea. I will now include the list of heroes into the existing 'list of heroes' article, and reference that article. I think we should aviod the one article per culture, better to encourage heroes from other cultures, if one culture is starting to take over. Wallie 06:39, 27 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I tried to, but the list of heroes is being redirected, etc. There is also another list of heroes which has been supercede by the revert in that article. I reverted back why changes I made, as I do not know the background.

I think that what you really want is not to have any lists containing heroes as real people, as such a list is too contentious. I do understand your concern. The word "hero" is very loaded. There are however other lists such as Pop icons, Celebrities etc, which are also contentious. I do think a list of heroes like we have is useful. It is also interesting to read about people, whose story we had not heard before, irrespective of country etc. A hero might be catalogued in other lists, such as Prominent Slavs in the period 1200-1300, but most folks would not have the knowledge to look there. (too obscure) Wallie 07:07, 27 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I think you were on the right track - let's wait about a day and see if anyone else wants to chime in, and then you can recreate the list on another page. Don't worry about the history on that redirect page, y the way. Another option is to create a List of non-fictional heroes page. I'm still torn between these two options:

Deprecate List of heroes, use List of fictional heroes and List of non-fictional heroes (or "historical" heroes).
Just stick everything into a List of heroes page with two sections.

My only concern with #2 is the eventual size of the page. But then again, list pages are expected to be large. Turnstep 13:16, 27 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I went ahead and moved the list over to the new page. I'm sorry. I skimmed the comments and just now noticed the "let's wait a day" statement. If someone wants to revert my work, that's fine; it just looked incredibly unsightly with a huge list in the middle of this article.

-- Hinotori^{(talk)|(ctrb)} 03:38, 28 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

It's been brought to my attention that the separate article for a list of non-fictional heroes was nominated for deletion, and the vote succeeded. In that case, I don't think the list belongs in this article either. Even though I disagree with the result, I think to be respectful of the reasons for which the vote passed, this list shouldn't be posted on either article entry. Unfortunate.

-- Hinotori^{(talk)|(ctrb)} 03:48, 28 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I am deleting the list again, because there is simply no way to definitively classify what is and is not a hero in real life. As much as I have my own personal heroes, I do not feel as though we can include a 'list' of this sort in an encyclopedia.

-- CaveatLector 01:39, 31 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I deleted the list again as well. See section "Swedenman" below. -- Hinotori^{(talk)|(ctrb)} 12:39, 6 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Please see Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of non-fictional heroes and Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of heroes both of which were deleted after going through an AfD. To have a list of heroes here would seem like an attempt to get around the AfD. CambridgeBayWeather (Talk) 22:49, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

List pages

As discussed above, I've created a new page, so that we now have a List of fictional heroes and a List of non-fictional heroes. I invite people to look over both lists for problems and omissions, particularly the latter list, as I've just created it and it may have some fictional people still hiding in it. Turnstep 01:16, 2 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

People traditionally recognized as heroes

I am glad to see this list back. But this is a different list than the one which was deleted. Lets keep it very tight. That means that silly names like Clinton, Bill Gates etc should not be there, primarily as they did not risk their lives, a prime requirement. They are also not "tradional". The list would more likely people who are now dead, ie historical figures. I have left Stalin off the list, and others who also have major downsides should be purged ruthlessly too, such as Churchill. Wallie 13:26, 5 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

It was put back by an anon IP - I've reverted to the last good version. All the edits in the short period it was up just further reinforces the earlier decision to break it off into separate pages. Turnstep 14:58, 5 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

To Wallie: Thank you, it's was mine idea. To Turnstep: Why i put the People traditionally recognized as heroes it wase for Enochlau deleted the List of non-fictional heroes. To Wallie again: are you a Stalinist? 213.114.215.199 20:52, 5 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Well, I think we should be allowed our non-fictional heroes. This is more important than fictional heroes in a way. The re-creation of List of non-fictional heroes is barred. This list may be a bit eclectic, but it may be the whole nature of the Wikipedia project that it is a bit eclectic. In particular David Broadfoot and John Axon deserve a mention. PatGallacher 00:43, 6 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Comic hero

Could someone delineate the "comic hero"? J. D. Redding 17:15, 19 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Heroes vs Heroines

I think, especially since "heroine" redirects here, a section detailing the evolving concept of heroines is extremely necessary. For the longest time, the idea of a heroine was exceedingly rare, and even when there were heroines, their roles were considerably different to the heroines of today. I added a subject header. I might add some information when I have some time, but I could REALLY REALLY use some collaborative help. -- Hinotori 11:47, 20 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Film movie heroes section inadequate

The film movie hero paragraph as a whole feels very irrelevant and too general. Film, like any other media, has plenty of nuances. To talk only about action heroes is to trivialize the topic as a whole. I left it in because I think a section should be there, and that the info is valuable as a part of a larger whole, but I do think that, by itself, it's somewhat unsightly. I have to admit, I'm slightly at a loss at the moment as to how exactly it should be expanded. But I would really appreciate help. Cheers. -- Hinotori 11:54, 20 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Overall request for expansion

My last new section on this talk page... for now. ;) This is a general request for expansion which I think is desperately needed for this topic. Heroes are an incredibly important part of culture everywhere and have a wide variety of incarnations. As talked about earlier on this talk page, more information is needed on military heroes, comic heroes, etc. Also, as I mentioned in the other comment on this talk page, a section about female heroines as an evolving concept is very necessary. (Please put comments directly related to that topic in THAT comment section for the sake of organization.) With our combined neural might, I think we can really make this article something great. At its peak, this could really be featured article material, guys. But it's a LONG ways away. -- Hinotori 11:58, 20 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

The Greek Hero

Editing this:

The word hero comes from ancient Greek, where it describes a culture hero who figures in mythology. The Greek heroes were often the mythological characters who were the eponymous founders of Greek cities, states, and territories. These mythological heroes were not always role models or possessed of heroic virtue; many were demigods, the offspring of mortals and the gods.

Actually, heroes were specifically either born from the gods or humans whose deeds on earth gained them some sort of divine status. I basically took out the whole paragraph and replaced it with a lot more pointed information from the Middle Liddle, with source link provided. I seperated the sections, as I feel that this will help with the expansion. Right now the information seems haphazard (why is the opera reference thrown in there?). I also feel as though the different types of heroes should be listed and linked. (I mean things like the Byronic hero, which I've added to the "see also" section. --CaveatLector 07:55, 21 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Hero With a Thousand Faces

Other literary theories of the Hero schould be placed here as well, at least by links. --CaveatLector 07:59, 21 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Expansion/Merger

After running across the article Greek hero cult, I felt that these two articles should be merged. The Hero article seriously needs more flesh to it, and I feel as though building something comprehensive and encyclopedic should include this information. -- CaveatLector 02:15, 31 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Swedenman

Swedenman is showing a blatant disregard for the vote on the AfD and the consensus shown on this page. He is repeatedly adding the list back in without an appeal to discussion here whatsoever. If this continues, I recommend someone file an RfC or notify an admin. I'd wait around to see to it myself, but I might be busy over the next week or so. -- Hinotori^{(talk)|(ctrb)} 12:35, 6 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

@@ Line 96: / Line 96: @@
 ::::: I am deleting the list again, because there is simply no way to definitively classify what is and is not a hero in real life.  As much as I have my own personal heroes, I do not feel as though we can include a 'list' of this sort in an encyclopedia.
 ::::: -- [[User:CaveatLector|CaveatLector]] 01:39, 31 December 2005 (UTC)
+::::: I deleted the list again as well. See section "Swedenman" below. -- [[User:Hinotori|Hinotori]]<sup><small>[[User_talk:Hinotori|(talk)]]|[[Special:Contributions/Hinotori|(ctrb)]]</small></sup> 12:39, 6 January 2006 (UTC)
 Please see [[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of non-fictional heroes]] and [[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of heroes]] both of which were deleted after going through an AfD. To have a list of heroes here would seem like an attempt to get around the AfD. [[User:CambridgeBayWeather|CambridgeBayWeather]] [[User_talk:CambridgeBayWeather|(Talk)]] 22:49, 1 January 2006 (UTC)