Talk:Flag carrier: Difference between revisions

Proposed merger

Isn't "Listed national flag carriers" the same as List of national airlines? ironcito 03:15, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

I agree, it should be merged because the two lists are basically the same. Flymeoutofhere 12:15, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

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• Wikiweakness #977 – statements of commonly held beliefs are presented among verifiable facts as if the beliefs too were verified fact.

I agree too. The definition of flag carrier is too vague. You could have a list of "State owned and operated national airlines", but countries like Canada and the US would not be on this list since all their airlines are privately owned and operated. However, in some countries, like China, virtually all airlines are state owned and operated. In fact, in China, a single governmental department buys all aircraft and distributes it among the state owned and operated airlines. I would have to agree that Air China is no more the sole "flag carrier" of China than American Airlines is the sole "flag carrier" of the US.

I recommend the list in this article be removed. user:mnw2000 20:24, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

Flag carrier for USA

The assertion that the United States of America has two “unofficial” flag carriers is not only unfounded, it misses the obvious. If the United States did, in fact, have a flag carrier, it would be state-owned. Because there are no state-owned carriers in the United States then wouldn’t the airline named after the country be the flag carrier?

American Airlines obviously borrows its name from the continent (as does the nation, i.e. the United States of…)The Wiki page for American Airlines claims that the name American Airways was used as a common brand by a number of independent air carriers. United Airlines, according to the Wikipage, derived its name from United Aircraft - Transport Corp, not from the “United States” as implied on this page.

Information found on Wikipedia is, at best, suspect due to the innumerable weaknesses of the Wikiconcept, but the least WikiScribblers can due is make an effort to see that the claims are somewhat consistant! Why not check the related Wikipage before making goofy claims?

Herd mentality directs people to assume that any airline named after a country is the “flag carrier.” If that were actualy true then neither United nor American would be the flag carrier of the United Stets – it would be USAirways, the only one of the three specifically named after the nation. 202.161.131.69 06:26, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

I agree that there is no flag carrier for the US, and propose removing American Airlines from that position for the US and for Puerto Rico. 70.22.61.5 19:26, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

I propose that American Airlines remain the flag carrier of Puerto Rico. If you live in P.R., you'd know that AA dominates half the airport and it's the airline we rely on to get to the US. Although other US airlines land here, American's presence is more dominant. Besides, AA has a hub here in PR so I defend American as PR's national airline. Regarding the US's national carrier, the US doesn't own any airline, but some airlines are used by the US goverment and military: ATA's L-1011 are used as charters for transporting troops. My uncle traveled to Germany with USAirways, and the flight was paid by the FAA(he works with them). Also, what someone said about USAirways being the flag carrier is plausible, yet it doesn't fit with the description of a national carrier and other airlines have made their presence clear around the world, like American, Delta, Continental, Northwest, and United. Also, if defunct airlines were classified as flag carriers, Pan Am would have been the flag carrier alongside Eastern. Einsteinboricua 16:04, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

While flag carrier is not the same as national airline (the latter implies state ownership), the US does not have a flag carrier. The fact that AA is the largest does not automatically give them that title. If people insist on putting the US in the list, then all 6 major US carriers should be listed. DB (talk) 16:22, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

Furthermore, AA is not the Puerto Rican flag carrier. Having a hub somewhere does not make an airline a flag carrier. Should Northwest be a Japanese flag carrier because of its hub in Tokyo? Flag carrier implies that the airline carries the country's flag (i.e. it is based in that country - or in this case, territory). American is based in Texas, not Puerto Rico. DB (talk) 16:26, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

I am new to this discussion, but it seems obvious that there is a difference of opinion as to what a flag carrier is. This article has two definitions, and since there is no state owned carieer in the US, the first must be the only one that matter with regard to the US. Thus, "A transportation company, such as a shipping or airline company, that is registered in a given state" would apply to almost every US carrier. Certianlly, an argument could be made that Delta or US Air would be considered US flag carriers by this definition.

I propose that the second definition only apply. A carrier that is state owned or operated by a department of the state. Since all US carriers are privately owned and/or operated, then there should be NO flag carriers listed for the US and the PR. user:mnw2000 19:58, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

Unofficial?

Who out there is actually determining which airline is “unofficially” the flag carrier?! What a preposterous thing to write. It isn’t as if there is some sanctioning body overseeing the official licensing of “official” flag carriers. This ought to be listed as a “wikiweakness” as well. Stupid, stupid, stupid.

63.219.0.9 08:18, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

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Get rid os the Erroneous Claims

Claiming that American, United, or USAir are the “flag carriers” of the United States is simply erroneous. Fans, employees, and stockholders of those commercial companies may want very much to be able to boast that their airline is the “flag carrier” but in fact, by definition, the United States has never had a flag carrier. Whoever inserted the claim that American and United are both “unofficial” flag carriers is simply ignorant of the definition of, “flag carrier.” I suggest that such a ridiculous claim be removed – the United States should not be on the list because the United States government owns no part of any commercial airline.

Incorrect examples in the list?

• “China, People's Republic of - Air China” – there are a number of Chinese carriers branded with different names but under the same administrative control. In essence, all of the carriers in China are part of one, big, state-owned entity. Therefore, how can there be one “flag carrier”?

• “Hong Kong - Cathay Pacific” – Since June of 1997 Hong Kong has been part of China, therefore how can one city within the nation have a “flag carrier”? Does Canton also have a “flag carrier”? Does Shanghai have its own “flag carrier”?

• “Mexico - Aeromexico, Mexicana (unofficial)” – as is the case with the United States, there are no “unofficial” flag carriers. By the definition used on this Wikipage, either Aeromexico and Mexicana are “flag carriers,” or Aeromexico and Mexicana are not “flag carriers.” There is no “unofficial” status.

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" *“Hong Kong - Cathay Pacific” – Since June of 1997 Hong Kong has been part of China, therefore how can one city within the nation have a “flag carrier”? Does Canton also have a “flag carrier”? Does Shanghai have its own “flag carrier”? "

Hong Kong is a special case. To all intents and purposes it really is a different country. It has its own legal system and currency etc. etc.

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• “China cases” – When the day that Wiki is open in china mainland, these kind of question can be serious. Wiki will get more and more bad impacts day by day. Such as Taiwan, Hong Kong and Macau, whether they have flag carrier or not, they should be written under CHINA, but not separately. Think about the future of Wiki. You cannot say that Hongkong, Macau and Taiwan are different countries from China until the day when there are their "national flags" hanging in the front of the building of United Nations.

Air Canada Not State Owned or Designated

Why is Air Canada cited as an example of a state owned or designated flag carrier? To my knowledge, it is neither. It may well be an example of a flag carrier, but for neither of the reasons given in the article. --207.161.33.151 16:12, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

Air Canada is a crown corporation in Canada, so it has a special status that other airlines in Canada don't have. 70.22.61.5 19:26, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

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Taiwan is not a part of mainland China. See the Taiwan Wiki. It is to all intents a separate country albeit not recognised by the UN to avoid antagonising China. Therefore it is perfectly able to have a Flag Carrier

States that have NO flag carrier, that is state owned or operated airlines

I proposed that we begin a new section that lists countries that have no flag airlines. Then remove all these countries from the list of flag carriers.

Countries and Territories that have NO flag carrier

Country/Territory	Largest Airline registered in this country	Notes
Canada	Air Canada
Puerto Rico		American Airlines is largest airlines operating here
United States	American Airlines

user:mnw2000 18:09, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

The more I look into it, this list can no longer be considered factual. Virtually every aircraft registered in the US carries the US flag, and, therefore, is considered a flag carrier. In China, virtually all aircraft is owned by the state, but only Air China aircraft carries the flag of the PRC. In Canada, several airlines, other than Air Canada, carries the flag of Canada, but only Air Canada is listed as a flag carrier.

If this chart is to be accurate, then it should carry all airlines that carrier the national flag on its aircraft. Of course, that would be unyielding for countries like the US, most countries in Europe, etc.

user:mnw2000 18:09, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

Since there are so many definitions, how about converting it into a table which goes like this:

Country/Territory	Airline	Designated National airline	Designated Flag carrier	State-owned
United States	American Airlines	No	Yes	No

I am proposing this half in jest, but it might just work. :)--Huaiwei 18:35, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

I like your chart. My only issue is whether some countries, like the US, have a single flag carrier. Is American Airlines any more a US flag carrier than United Airlines, Delta Airlines or US Airways? Just because the name is American doesn't give it any more right to be called the sole flag carrier than Delta Airlines. For countries that don't have a designated airlines as its flag carrier, such as China (Air China), we could simply list it as the largest airlines.

Country/Territory	Airline	National Airline Designated or Historical	Flag Carrier Includes the national flag on its aircraft livery	State-owned	Notes
Canada	Air Canada	Historical		No	Air Canada has the Canadian Mapleleaf as part of its logo
China (PRC)	Air China	Designated	Yes	Yes
Iraq	Iraqi Airways	Designated	Yes
Taiwan	China Airlines	Designated
United Kingdom	British Airways	Historical	Yes	No
United States	American Airlines		Yes	No	American Airlines is the largest US airlines

When referring to the flag carrier of a country, that is more of a common use issue than an official designation. Canadian carriers are privatized and to my knowledge, Air Canada isn't designated by the government as the "official" flag carrier, but it is commonly referred to as Canada's flag carrier. The US does not have one "flag carrier". In essence, all US carriers are flag carriers. AA is the largest overall, but unlike many countries, there is no airline that even comes close to dominating the domestic market. In different regions, different carriers dominate. DB (talk) 03:55, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

How about simply making a clear indication that "flag carrier" in the above table refers to any airline which paints the national flag on its aircraft? At least this should be far less contentious. Or to make things clearer, we could change the "designated Flag Carrier" column above to "paints the national flag on its aircraft" or something like that?--Huaiwei 13:03, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

We have an airlines that is considered the "Sole National Airlines" by official designation (i.e. Air China) or by history (i.e. British Airlines), airlines that carry the national flag or flag carrier, and airlines that are state owned and/or operated. As for the US, there is actually no "Sole National Airlines" and all US airlines carry the American Flag on is aircraft. Therefore, in such a case, I simply listed the largest airlines registered in that country and noted it. I suggest we rename the article "Designated National Airlines" and have "Flag Carrier" link to it. user:mnw2000 14:52, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

"Historical" sounds odd, unless you are refering to them being formerly designated national airlines. Anyway the table dosent require one entry per country. Eg:

Country/Territory	Airline	Designated	Flies the flag	State-owned
People's Republic of China	Air China	Yes	Yes	Majority
	China Eastern Airlines	No	No	Majority
	China Southern Airlines	No	No	Majority
United States	American Airlines	No	Yes	No
	Delta Airlines	No	Yes	No
	United Airlines	No	Yes	No

Possible entries for each field include:

• Designated: Yes / No
• Flies the flag: Yes / No
• State-owned: Full / Majority / Minority / No--Huaiwei 15:22, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

I like the simplicity of your chart. However, many countries has so many airlines, that the chart could be unyielding. China has about 10 different state owned airlines; the US has hundreds of airlines; etc. How do we decide how many airlines for each country to include? user:mnw2000 15:50, 27 December 2006 (UTC)