Wikipedia:Reference desk/Language

June 21

"Hesher" definitions gone--what happened to them?

On a previous visit to Wikipedia (many months ago) I was looking for information on the term "Hesher". I found many insightful definitions. I returned today, and the only reference is to a Nickleback album. Can the "good" (useful) definitions be brought back?

The version of the Hesher article before the rampant deletion is here: [1]. It does appear to need some reformatting before being put back, would you be willing to do this ? StuRat 05:21, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

Regular allophonic pair in English

Many years ago (ca. 1980) I asked my linguistics professor about a pattern I'd detected and she didn't even nibble. Question 1 is, how widespread is the following allophonic rule (my intuition as a native speaker is that it extends much beyond my own Mid-Atlantic idiolect!)? /aɪ/ is rendered as [aɪ] before voiced consonants, but as [ʌɪ] before unvoiced. Just some of the many minimal pairs of words for which the pattern holds:

(bride, bright), (five, fife), (spies, spice), (tribe, tripe)

Question 2: is there a tidy causal explanation in terms of minimal effort in pronunciation?

Sorry if this is widely known and I shoulda found it already on Wikipedia!

PaulTanenbaum 03:34, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

Some of this may be discussed at Canadian raising (a bit of misnomer since the phenomenon isn't restricted to Canada). A Wikipedian from Wisconsin told me once that for him hide (noun, "skin") and hide verb are minimal pairs: one has [aɪ] and the other [ʌɪ]. —Angr 04:30, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

Lick ...

Lick the dog. What does this phrase mean? I saw this phrase as an advice to someone who needed to get rid of drowsiness. But couldn't understand it. Sorry, if it is vulgar. I don't understand it. Desaparecidosdo 04:25, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

Could it have been meant in a literal sense, like "take a cold shower" would also not mean something else?  --Lambiam^Talk 08:06, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

Could this be a variation of “the hair of the dog that bit you”? The classic example is to drink beer to get rid of a hangover. The problem is that if applied to drowsiness the recommendation would be to sleep it off. That makes little sense. David D. (Talk) 08:14, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

Someone here [2] had the same question. Perhaps it is the same person. The only answer was a variation on David D. (Talk)'s "hair of the dog". Bielle 22:44, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

Could this "lick" mean "beat" or "flog" as in the old question: "What is the difference between a stamp and an ass?... One you stick with a lick, the other you lick with a stick." CJLippert 18:28, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

That's too bad/What a shame

A colleague of mine (a non-native speaker of English) asked me if there was a difference between the usage of the phrases "that's too bad" and "what a shame". I couldn't really think of one, though. I told him that these two are more commonly used when someone tells you that something bad but not too serious has happened to them. "My car broke down today" or "I didn't get that promotion." In contrast, "my sympathies" or "my condolences" would be used in more serious situations: "My mother died" or "I've been diagnosed with cancer."

Do y'all agree or disagree? How would you distinguish the usage of "that's too bad" and "what a shame"? Is there a distinction? — Brian (talk) 04:59, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

"You have my condolences" is the stock phrase used when a person beloved to the addressee has died, and is therefore associated with death; for that reason I'd hesitate to use it in connection with serious illness. I'd further only use it either with people I don't personally know well, or in the context of a longer letter of condolence. "My sympathies" does not have an equally strong association with death, but is still rather impersonal if that is all that is said in response to learning something serious happened to the other person. You can always safely use "I'm sorry to hear that". I agree that the phrases "that's too bad" and "what a shame" are mainly used when the issue is not too personally serious, but perhaps that is largely due to the very informal and loose tone of these phrases, while a serious grief or loss is felt to call for a more formal register. I also agree they are almost interchangeable, but "that's too bad" includes the personal feelings while "what a shame" applies more to the situation itself; the latter suggests to me more than the former that there's nothing one can do about it, like when a favourite object was lost.  --Lambiam^Talk 07:53, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

To me 'that's too bad' has a distinctly American ring. It is used in Britain, but I think 'what a shame' or 'what a pity' is much more common. --ColinFine 23:31, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

To me, "that's too bad" carries the implication "(for you)"; that is, I'm noting that the situation is negative from your perspective. "What a shame" or "it's a shame" or "that's a shame" implies that I personally think the situation is bad. If George W. Bush were for some reason in my kitchen and said "I'm really bummed that I can't run for election to a third term", I might say out of politeness "that's too bad", but would never ever say "what a shame". Tesseran 23:55, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

In my experience, "What a shame" carries an added element of reaction to a perceived injustice or unfairness, often personal. "My car broke down" is simply impersonal fate and so would elicit a "That's too bad", whereas "I didn't get the promotion" would yield a "What a shame", or perhaps further, "What a shame - you worked so hard for it." Pushnell 03:14, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

Identifing an accent

Can someone tell me where the narator of this YouTube video is most likely from? I've never heard this particular accent before. Dismas|^(talk) 12:20, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

It doesn't sound like a native English speaker, but some pronunciation is General American, suggesting that the speaker has spent a substantial time in North America. — Gareth Hughes 12:27, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

Sounds Quebecois to me. СПУТНИК^{CCC P} 14:35, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

The narrator is from Romania.

It definitely sounds like an Eastern European who's learned American English. —Angr 17:16, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

It is definitely Romanian. What does Eastern European mean? Slavic? Hungarian? Romanian? These languages have nothing to do with each other.

Well, Romanian may not be classified as a Slavic language, but it does have Slavic as well as Latin origins. -- JackofOz 22:07, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

It doesn't have Slavic origins, but it does have Slavic loanwords. However, that isn't the point. Regardless of how different Romanian and Hungarian are from the Slavic languages and each other, the accents of their speakers when using English sound similar (to my ears at any rate). —Angr 22:33, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

See sprachbund.--Pharos 03:03, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

I was surprised to hear it is actually a person. Usually an accent like that reflects computer-generated speech. Edison 22:23, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

Names of Latin letters in Greek language

I know the English names for the Greek letters (alpha, beta, gamma, etc.).

What are the Greek names for the Latin letters (A, B, C, D, etc.)?

If you are referring to classical Greek, I don't think they had any, since Latin is a later language than Greek, and I don't know if the conquered Greeks made separate names for the Latin letters (from Etruscan). I suspect they just called A alpha, or they called the letters by their Latin names, which according to Latin alphabet were essentially the same as today. I'm afraid I can't help for modern Greek, and the Greek wikipedia gives nothing useful, as far as I can see. СПУТНИК^{CCC P} 14:33, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

Greek Wikiepdia isn't very helpful, as СПУТНИК said. For example, el:A simply says: "Το γράμμα A είναι το πρώτο γράμμα του Λατινικού αλφαβήτου." ("The letter A is the first letter of the Latin alphabet"), without a pronunciation. el:Λατινικό αλφάβητο (Latin alphabet) doesn't give pronunciations either.

This page has a section called "ΛΑΤΙΝΙΚΟ ΑΛΦΑΒΗΤΟ" (Latin Alphabet), that looks like it may be the Greek pronuniciations for the Latin letters. These seem to be pretty tied to the Latin language itself; "Y" is "ί γκραίκουμ" ("i graecum") and "V" and "W" have the same text ("βε"). It also has a section with the equivalent of the British letter names "ΑΓΓΛΙΚΟ ΑΛΦΑΒΗΤΟ" ("English Alphabet").

You'd probably have to find someone that actually knows Modern Greek to be certain, but I think part of the problem is that letters in the Latin alphabet have very minimal names (except "W" and "Z"). For the most part, their names in the languages I'm familiar with are pretty close to their pronunciations (allowing for the per-language constraints of phonotactics). In Greek, the names are actually native letter names, e.g. the letter "α" is actually called "ἄλφα" while it is pronounced [a]. Mike Dillon 18:11, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

What does "walk-down" mean?

Hello. On several occasions I've encountered the expression 'a walk-down bar' in reference to a bar/restaurant. I tried to find a definition or an explanation of this expressiom, but count not find anything.

Thanks in advance!

It means you would enter it by going down a set of steps. Recury 16:35, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

The expression tends to mean a bar that is a half-storey or less "below ground", in what would be called a "raised basement" in a North American residence. You can usually see through the bar's front window looking down from street level. New York is full of them, as are areas of Boston, Montreal and Toronto. Bielle 05:18, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

In a residence, I would call that a split level, tri-level, or quad-level, depending on the number of floors. StuRat 14:04, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

• Cheershotclaws 08:11, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

What's a motto with you?

Hi. During the song Hakuna Matata Timon makes a lame pun: Pumba: What's a motto? Timon: Nothing. What's a motto with you?

I'm curious how this pun was translated in to Mandarin. [[3]] Anyone know? Thanks --Duomillia 16:50, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

I don't get the pun but it sounds like Simba asks what's a motto? And Timon answers who cares, as long as we're with you. --Wirbelwindヴィルヴェルヴィント (talk) 18:18, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

It's a pretty bad pun on "matter" ("what's the matter with you"), based on the non-rhotic New York accent or whatever they were going for with those characters. Though of course I have no idea how this was rendered in Mandarin or any other language! Adam Bishop 19:14, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

No no, what I posted was the Mandarin rendition. --Wirbelwindヴィルヴェルヴィント (talk) 23:23, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

Oh! Sorry. Adam Bishop 23:40, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

No punning is involved in the Mandarin version, lame or not lame. "Hakuna Matata?" "That's our motto." (这是我们的座右铭。) "What's a motto?" (什么是座右铭？) "Never mind! Just say it as we do." (管它呢!跟著念就成了。) Cheers.--K.C. Tang 01:27, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

Yea, I wasn't sure if I heard correctly, since I speak Taiwan's Mandarin, so the accents are really heavy to me. But that still clears up that there's no pun. --Wirbelwindヴィルヴェルヴィント (talk) 02:19, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

June 22

Correct third-person past tense of scream

Is 'screamt' an acceptable variant of 'screamed', as 'burnt' is of 'burned' or 'dreamt' is of 'dreamed'? If not, why? Also, what are the general rules for determining whether verbs ending in -l, -m and -n take -ed or -t? Ratzd'mishukribo 02:53, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

No, "screamt" is not a word. The only past-tense verb that ends in -mt is "dreamt" and its derivatives (undreamt, etc.). In fact, it's the only common English word with such a property. See English words with uncommon properties#Unusual word endings. Some people spell the past tense of "spell" as "spelt", but others disagree, believing this word refers to a type of grain, and the required past tense is "spelled".-- JackofOz 03:03, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

Pray tell, on what grounds do these "others" contend that "spelt" is unacceptable? The OED and the AHD both give "spelt" as a valid past tense form alongside "spelled". --Ptcamn 03:39, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

Maybe you'd better ask them, Ptcamn. I don't know their names, unfortunately. I prefer to write "spelled" because that's what I was taught at a young age, but I know that others write "spelt". I was merely making reference to the fact that there is disagreement about this. See Talk:American and British English differences/Spelled v Spelt, for example. -- JackofOz 04:07, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

I guess this question has to do with final obstruent devoicing and English orthography. It depends on how you pronounce the final obstruent, and whether you want to render your pronunciation phonetically. Cheers.--K.C. Tang 03:43, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

And we can't forget that there is spelt :P-Andrew c 23:23, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

Not only have we not forgotten it, but I mentioned it 5 posts above.  :) -- JackofOz 01:37, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

Thank you all - but I ought to pose my query more clearly. Verbs ending in -l, -m, or -n, which was once took the past tense in -t, now take -ed, but -t is usually still accepted (take the above example of 'spelt'). On an online list, examples of such verbs are given but 'screamt' is omitted. Indeed, I do not recall having read 'screamt'. However, if 'screamt' never did exist, it requires explanation, as it is phonetically identical in this respect to 'dreamt'. In short: why doesn't 'screamt' have the same linguistic status as 'dreamt'? To my understanding, this is not addressed in the paragraphs above. Ratzd'mishukribo 04:14, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

In my part of the world, we pronounce "screamed" as skreemd, not skremt, and I've never heard the skremt pronunciation anywhere, so I disagree that the fictitious word "screamt" requires any explanation. -- JackofOz 04:38, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

(Edit conflict) I don't know much English, but I'd think in this way: why do some verbs end in -t in the first place? It seems that they end in -t in order to reflect the actual pronunciation (-d devoiced into -t). So how is "screamed" pronounced? does it end with a -d or a -t? (I'm not sure, I don't really speak English.) If the former, then there's no problem; if the latter, then we can say that the spelling doesn't reflect the actual pronunciation, which hardly surprises us, as English is well-known for its irregular orthography. So are you sure "dreamt" and "screamed" are "phonetically identical"? If they are, well, then the irregular English orthography is to blame. Cheers.--K.C. Tang 04:55, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

KC, if you can write a paragraph like that in a language you don't speak, you must be a bestselling novelist in the languages you do speak! -- Mwalcoff 22:52, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

The issue is that while many verbs ending in -n, -m, and -l do take an (irregular) past tense in -t, because these are irregularities this generalisation is not productive. It's a closed set that does this, you can't introduce it to other words (e.g. I sunned myself, I framed a picture, I filled a hole.) It's just that some verbs have irregular past tenses, which is generally because they reflect an old regular way of doing things that has since been replaced. There's a tendency for more common verbs to keep this old ways of doing things (irregularity) more than rarer ones. English-speaking children just have to learn which ones are exceptions, though there are some patterns which help to remember them. The ones they fail to learn get regularised... (e.g. shew -> showed). Drmaik 05:31, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

In (American) English, "screamed" has a clearly enunciated "d" on the end. On the other hand, "skrimped" is pronounced liked "skrimt" or perhaps "skrimpt." Edison 22:20, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

Do you mean "scrimped"? I don't know "skrimped". The pronunciation of the final syllable is heavily influenced by the awkwardnes of "imp" plus a hard "d", or whatever that is in phonetics. Thus, the "d" comes out sounding more like a "t", though it is never spelled that way, to my knowledge. Bielle 05:13, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

Or to put it more technically, after voiceless sounds '-ed' is pronounced 't', which is also voiceless. This is the pattern of regular English verbs. Drmaik 06:19, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

For what it's worth, screamt seems to have been in use in Scots, if not in English. I can produce two citations: William Nicholson, "The Country Lass" ("The tod screamt eldricht frae the cleugh"), via Google Books; J. Learmont, Poems ("The howlet screamt, / The liche fowle [=nightjar]'s hoarse, / Did fairly deave [=deafen] her ear."), via Dictionary of the Scots Language. Wareh 19:52, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

what is the meaning of "how about a hand for Harry"

I am a non-native english speaker. When I visited at the universal studio in LA. The host of an animal-show said "how about a hand for Harry(an orangutan)"- at least it sounded like to me- at the end of the show, but I could'nt understand the exact meaning of the sentence. Could you please let me know it in easy english! Thank you, have a nice day. Leemhvic 04:55, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

It means "to clap your hands", "to applaud". Cheers.--K.C. Tang 05:04, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

I believe that you probably heard correctly, and that the host was asking you to applaud (clap for) the orangutan. I'm not aware of any alternate meanings of this phrase, although I'm willing to be enlightened. Carom 05:40, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

The usual idiom is "Let's give him (or her) a hand". As it is, this expression has two quite different meanings, and you need the context to see which is intended. One meaning is to urge an audience to applaud someone by hand clapping. However, "to give someone a hand" can also mean: to help that person with performing or finishing a task.  --Lambiam^Talk 09:13, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

To sum up the above and to add some clarification, there are two idioms in use here. The first is "how about...". This idiom always begins a question. It means "What do you think about..." or "How would you feel about...", but it can also be an informal way of saying "Could you please do..." or "Could you please give...". The second idiom is "a hand". These words express one of (at least) two idioms. One, as others have said, means "help". The other means "a round of applause". Since it came at the end of a performance or broadcast appearance, the meaning is almost certainly "a round of applause". Marco polo 16:38, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

Shortly after the release of the movie Jaws, there was a comedy mix song with fragments of songs like "Wouldn't you give your hand to a friend ?". The double meanings made me laugh. Perhaps that's when I first became addicted to puns. StuRat 13:47, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

It is a very old pun that wannabe comedians often make: Someone is working on something difficult and asks a friend to "give me a hand." The friend responds with applause rather than assistance, to the chagrin of the first person. — Michael J 23:08, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

That's not quite the same, as Jaws presumably wanted the hand for a meal. StuRat 03:58, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

In (i think) Asimov's The Naked Sun, a murder was done using the detached arm of a robot as a club; the robot who lent a hand then had a breakdown because of the conflict between the First and Second Laws of Robotics. —Tamfang 05:07, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

Hanged versus Hung

Is there any distinction between the words "hanged" and "hung" ... or are they interchangeable? Specifically, when referring to a prisoner's execution, would one say: "John Smith was hanged last night" or "John Smith was hung last night"? And what about other uses of the verb "to hang" -- such as hanging the clothes out to dry on the clothesline, etc.? Thanks. (JosephASpadaro 18:34, 22 June 2007 (UTC))

It's a distinction that some people make and others don't. Those that make the distinction view those who don't as unlettered yahoos. Those that don't make the distinction view those who do as nattering pedants. Different dictionairies will give you their different views on the subject; Merriam-Webster's 11th Collegiate Dictionary, the one most readily nearby, says, with regard to being hanged by the neck until dead: "For both transitive and intransitive senses, the past and past participle hung, as well as hanged, is standard. Hanged is most appropriate for official executions <he was to be hanged, cut down whilst still alive...and his bowels torn out - Louis Allen> but hung is also used <gave orders that she should be hung - Peter Quennell>. Hung is more appropriate for less formal hangings <by morning I'll be hung in effigy> Ronald Reagan" - Nunh-huh 18:42, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

As far as I know, hanged is never used for the meanings of hang unrelated to killing someone. I hung a picture on the wall, hung a flag outside my window, and hung my laundry out to dry; I can't imagine any native English speaker over the age of 8 ever using hanged in those sentences. —Angr 20:00, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

I still remember writing some essay in an elementary school class, using "hanged" when I should have used "hung". My teacher drew a little picture of a noose next to my writing.  :) Corvus cornix 23:18, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

My grandmother insisted that "hanged" was only for people and "hung" for meat. However, as a hanged person soon becomes meat . . . and that is the sort of remark that would lead me to be in serious trouble in my grandmother's house. I do agree with —Angr about how "hanged" isn't used. Bielle 21:26, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

I believe the main purpose for the distinction between the two words is to facilitate pun-making. As in, "They said you was hung!" ... "They was right." Friday (talk) 21:30, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

If anyone who doesn't speak English as a first language is reading, the reason why we don't use "hung" in relation to humans is that "hung" also has a colloquial meaning relating to a man's endowment. "The prisoner was hung" is a very funny joke when you're 12 years old... --Charlene 18:10, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

Heh, I was wondering how old that usage is - and the OED has a citation from the 1640s: "They cut off his genitories, (and they say he was hung like an ass)." But there are other uses for the word: a hung jury, for example, never a hanged jury; hungover, never hangedover. In fact, the only time anyone would ever use "hanged" is for an execution, and even then few would dispute the use of "hung." zafiroblue05 | Talk 19:27, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

May/December Marriage

I know that this term refers to a younger person marrying an older person, presumably because May is toward the beginning of the year and December is at the end of the year. I assume the phrase is metaphoric for the younger person being at the "beginning" (early stages) of his/her life and the older person being at the "end" (later stages) of his/her life. Question: Is there any significance to the actual months named, May and December? Or are they just random place holders for an early month and a late month? Further, are the connotations of Spring versus Winter invoked? Thanks. (JosephASpadaro 18:40, 22 June 2007 (UTC))

I think that Spring and Winter is a lot more relevant than "early month" / "late month", because at the time when such expressions were first coined, December wasn't always considered to be the last month of the year. In Chaucer's "Merchant's Tale", there are two characters literally named January and May! AnonMoos 03:14, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

The idea appears to be that May is when everything is fertile and blooming, but in December everything is dormant and barren. --Charlene 18:11, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

help with a printing term?

Hi--

I'm wondering if there is a specific term for the printing phenomenon in which one can see the type on the reverse side of page on the page that one is reading--that is, is there a term that denotes when the text on a verso is visible through the recto that precedes it?

I realize this is a rather esoteric question. Any advice/thoughts woudl be much appreciated.

With thanks -- Benzocane 20:10, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

"Show-through" - cited in numerous glossary sources by querying _define: show-through_ (without the underscores) in Google. -- Cheers, Deborahjay 21:10, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

I learned to call it "bleed through", back in the dark ages of hot type, though I have also found the term used in desktop publishing[4]. The term came from a tendency of ink that was too thick for the paper (or paper too thin for the ink) to leak or bleed right through to the back of the sheet. This is not the same as "page bleed", however, which refers to a design technique of taking an image or border right to the edge of the paper, leaving no margin. Bielle 21:39, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

That had been my first thought, actually - but when I performed the same "define" query, the results indicated that "bleed-through" evidently refers to a physical phenomenon involving the interaction between ink and paper. The results for "show-through" seemed more convincing to describe the visual aspect. -- Deborahjay 21:44, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

Please take a moment to review the 'How to ask a question' section at the top of every reference desk page, especially the portion about not cross-posting your questions to multiple reference desks. 65.203.61.77 21:51, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

I'm sorry about the x-posting. I posted it twice because it seemed equally related to both topic areas. Also, I altered my question some for the second post, as I was worried its initial phrasing was not entirely clear. Many thanks for the help above! I'm much obliged. Benzocane 22:07, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

I thought it would possibly be called print-through., This term is commonly used with regard to tape recording and describes a similar effect of unwanted information being presented at the wrong time.--Tugjob 23:21, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

Technical Term for Italicized Thougts in Literature

Does anyone know what the technical term for italicized thoughts in literature?

Here is an example:

---Example Start---

John opened the door; there was a squeak.

This door needs repair.

John went to the garage to retrieve his tools.

---Example End---

I would be very appreciative for an answer! I know there is a term for it, I just cannot seem to remember to find it via Wikisearch. --67.177.170.96 22:12, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

I don't know if this is the term you're looking for, but giving the thoughts of a character as if spoken is known as monologue intérieur ("inner monologue"). I don't think this is necessarily rendered in italics; an author who employs such monologue intérieur regularly and always uses italics for it is Philip K. Dick.  --Lambiam^Talk 23:13, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

Incidentally I once read something by a scifi critic that implied that the practice of "flashing italicized thoughts at the reader" can be blamed on one well-known author. (I don't know whom the critic had in mind but Poul Anderson sometimes did it to excess.) —Tamfang 05:16, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

Etymology

What's the etymology of jungle fever. : for one sense (interracial relations), see Jungle Fever. iames 22:23, 22 June 2007 (UTC) There was nothing either I, or Control F, could find in the article Miscegenation to which Jungle Fever, the movie, redirects, about any use of the term for interracial relationships. I have removed the link from the Disambiguation Page for this reason. Bielle 02:19, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

jungle is from Hindi or Marathi (originally meaning wasteland), and fever is from Latin febris, according to my nearest etymological dictionary. —Tamfang 05:12, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

And of course putting the two together gives a disease (fever) you'd get in a jungle. I'd guess the combination originated with Westerners first exploring the jungles of Africa and South America and catching new and unnamed diseases. In the racial sense as mentioned above, I assume the jungle part is a reference to Africans coming from the jungle (similar to jungle bunny and probably not considered politically correct) and the use of fever related to the earlier expression. Cyta 09:08, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

June 23

"Rapier" in Hindi

Since it's not a weapon native to India, is there a translation of "rapier" into Hindi that would differentiate it from any other sort of sword? If so, could I get the transliteration of that? Krys Tamar 03:05, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

kirac (किरच) 196.12.53.9 07:10, 23 June 2007 (UTC)Vineet Chaitanya

Thank You Krys Tamar 23:42, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

Are there any words in Nepali that sound like...

... the English-language words mommy or mammy? If so, what do they mean? I particularly need to know if they have a negative (i.e. derogatory, vulgar, etc.) connotation. -- Thanks, Deborahjay 07:52, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

The word māmā means "uncle" (specifically a brother of the mother).[5]  --Lambiam^Talk 09:28, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

copyedit or copy-edit or copy edit?

one word, hyphen or space?

According to dictionary.com, copyedit is a word, and copy-edit is acceptable. Cambridge dictionary doesn't list it though, and would probably be "copy edit" in British English. So short answer, all three are technically correct. --Wirbelwindヴィルヴェルヴィント (talk) 10:09, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

As to British usage, the OED lists the word under the hyphenated spelling copy-edit (although one of the quotations does spell it as "copy edit"). However, the entry is probably about 40 years old, which is long enough for usage to possibly have changed. --Anonymous, June 24, 2007, 00:20 (UTC).

Guantánamo Bay

The article says that the bay was originally named Guantánamo by the Taíno. Does anyone know what this word means (in the Carib language? the article isn't very clear on what language the Taíno spoke) 68.231.151.161 14:53, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

According to the article on Maipurean languages, Carib is related to, but distinct from Taíno, which is extinct. I don't know how well recorded Taíno was before it became extinct, probably hundreds of years ago. Its closest spoken relative is apparently Wayuu. However, it is possible that we can't know for sure what the name means. Marco polo 18:25, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

Machiavelli & Exclamation marks

I am currently reading Machiavelli's De Principatibus in translation, and I noticed the use of exclamation marks at several places. Did Machiavelli use exclamation marks, or is this my translator's bit of freedom?

As an example, in Chapter XVII (see wikisource):

“ Nevertheless a Prince should inspire fear in such a fashion that if he do not win love he may escape hate. For a man may very well be feared and yet not hated, and this will be the case so long as he does not meddle with the property or with the women of his citizens and subjects. ”

In my translation (which is Dutch) "or with the women" is written as "- and the women! -".

--User:Krator (t c) 23:46, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

Il Principe/Capitolo XVII at Wikisource reads (with my highlight!):

“ Debbe non di manco el principe farsi temere in modo, che, se non acquista lo amore, che fugga l'odio; perché può molto bene stare insieme esser temuto e non odiato; il che farà sempre, quando si astenga dalla roba de' sua cittadini e de' sua sudditi, e dalle donne loro: e quando pure li bisognasse procedere contro al sangue di alcuno, farlo quando vi sia iustificazione conveniente e causa manifesta; ma, sopra tutto, astenersi dalla roba d'altri; perché li uomini sdimenticano più presto la morte del padre che la perdita del patrimonio. ”

I see no exclamation marks. A.Z. 03:05, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

A more literal translation than the English above is:

... so long as he does not meddle with the property of his citizens and subjects, and with their women: ...

Macchiavelli's putting "and with their women" at the end produces a little jolt, and gives it an emphasis lost in the flatness of the English translation. I think that the Dutch translator, in that respect, was more true to M's intention.  --Lambiam^Talk 04:58, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

Thank you. --User:Krator (t c) 11:45, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

June 24

Deleted entry

I recently entered a word and my definition of it, then left for a while and came back to discover that what I wrote in no longer existed. Did I do something wrong, or did it get deleted without discussion?24.9.133.42 05:51, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

If all you entered was a dictionary definition, or if what you entered was a neologism that has not established itself in the English language, it was probably speedy deleted. —Angr 06:09, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

These are actually not criteria for speedy deletion; see Wikipedia:Criteria for speedy deletion#Non-criteria. If we knew the name of the article, we might be able to say more.  --Lambiam^Talk 17:58, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

True; on the other hand, depending on how long the user was gone when he "left for a while", it may have been WP:PRODded and then deleted. —Angr 20:23, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

The place for word definitions is Wiktionary. Clarityfiend 19:09, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

Word for glove maker?

Is there a more specific word for "glove maker" than "milliner" (which usually means "hat maker", but also "accessory maker")? Thanks. --TotoBaggins 14:52, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

• Glover! --jpgordon^∇∆∇∆ 15:08, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

Ouch. Thanks. :) --TotoBaggins 21:23, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

Yes, that terms fits like a ... :-) StuRat 03:54, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

Mingler

Hi! Could a native speaker please suggest what kind of a person is described as a mingler in English? I could provide more context, but I'd prefer spontaneous ideas. Thanks! Daniel Šebesta (talk • contribs) 20:10, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

I would say it's a person who mixes with lots of people at social events, not staying in one 'safe' group but talking to new people (but not having very long or meaningful conversations) — Matt Eason ^{(Talk &#149; Contribs)} 20:18, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

With emphasis on the not staying put in any one group for long, in my opinion. — Laura Scudder ☎ 17:07, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

Thank you, Matt! Daniel Šebesta (talk • contribs) 10:22, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

Although worth pointing out that if you heard this spoken by a British person, it might have been the slang term 'minger' (generally used by the young), which is a derogatory term generally meaning a disgusting person, usually female. Skittle 21:38, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

Using Wikipedia

[Title added by ColinFine 22:23, 24 June 2007 (UTC)]

hello!!! I'm a new user on this page. I really want to explore more on this site for my studies. Usually I just enter a subject on the search box, then after viewing the answer, it already ends to my search. How should I search any topics with vast answers?--125.60.248.135 22:01, 24 June 2007 (UTC) In editing a page, how could I make sure that my editing is correct?--125.60.248.135 22:01, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

I hope you could help me in my queries as a first time user on your site.....

THANKS AND GOD BLESS!!!

First, please read the instruction at the beginning of this page: you did sign your post, which many new posters do not; but you did not include a title. (I have added one).

Secondly, questions about Wikipedia are best posted at the Help desk rather than here. But the simple answer to your first question is that searching in Wikipedia is rather limited, and you are much better using a general purpose search engine.

Finally, if you pick 'Help' above the search box, it will take you to a great deal of helpful information, including Editing Wikipedia.

Welcome, and good editing! --ColinFine 22:23, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

Present Perfect Tense used for distant past events

I've asked about this previously but respondents didn't seem to have a clear idea of what I was talking about. It's about what I'd call a local variant of the use of the present perfect tense. Local, because I've only ever heard Australians use it this way. It seems to be a relatively recent phenomenon: I remember exactly the very first time I ever heard it (1992), because it sounded so odd to my ears. It seems to appear when a speaker is narrating events that happened not just in the very recent past where one might expect the present perfect to be appropriate, but also long ago. It seems to be confined to speaking; I've never seen it in writing except when the writer is recording some speaker's exact words.

Here's a good example, from today's The Age (page 3, "Tale of a jockey on the tiles from 'a funny character' who's Queen"). In 1997, the horse trainer Lee Freedman met Queen Elizabeth and had a private conversation with her about her horse Arabian Story, which was a runner in that year's Melbourne Cup. Yesterday, on television, his daughter Emma Freedman was relating a part of that conversation as told to her by her father, and her TV appearance was partly the subject of today's Age article. She was reported as saying yesterday, about the 1997 conversation:

• "Queen Elizabeth looked at him in absolute horror and has gone "You're kidding, aren't you?". And Dad's just started to laugh and she's then proceeded to say "Well, it would have been a lot better if ....".

The 3 underlined bits could just as easily have been "went" (or, preferably, said), "Dad just started", and "she then proceeded". I hear this sort of thing more and more commonly, and wonder if it's becoming a new way of talking. Is it purely a feature of Australian English, or does it turn up elsewhere in the Anglophone world? I'd appreciate any information about its genesis. -- JackofOz 02:37, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

This expensive article seems to be about that. A.Z. 02:45, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

I took a quick look at the article; full of jargons, as you might have expected... the author suggests "the PP in Australian English seems to be more widespread than in British English and of course American English", and proposes "first, the PP in Australian English can be modified by a past adverbial which is definite... Second, the PP can be found in narrative sequences where a temporal progression from one event to the next is expressed... Third, the Australian PP is widely used in informal spoken discourse where the moment of speech is 'reset' as in uses of the historical present. The effect of this shift is a foregrounding one: it makes the narration more vivid... Finally, such a flexibility in use leads to the Australian PP being used for stylistic contrasts in narratives where much tense-switching occurs. Again, this is not unlike what happens in written French where the PS [passé simple] and the PC [passé composé] alternate to express a range of contrasts." Cheers.--K.C. Tang 03:43, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

I didn't know that you could read it (or a part of it) for free. A.Z. 03:59, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

Did you not consider that K.C. Tang might have access to the original journal, in a library for example? --Richardrj ^{talk email} 05:01, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

I didn't. A.Z. 05:07, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

Or maybe K.C. Tang is wildly rich and spending $31.49 plus tax to read one article doesn't faze him. At any rate, to me the construction is strongly reminiscent of the historic present, which would sound like: "Queen Elizabeth looks at him in absolute horror and goes "You're kidding, aren't you?". And Dad just starts to laugh and she then proceeds to say "Well, it would have been a lot better if ....". I see we still don't have an article on the historic present and this is the second time I've had to mention it in an RD answer. —Angr 05:45, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

Oh, naughty us who haven't snapped our heels already.  :) The solution is readily apparent, Angr. Be bold and start it yourself. Build it and they will come. -- JackofOz 05:59, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

Back to the meat of the response - yes, it does have a kind of redolence to the historical present, although it's clearly a different construction in itself. I see you also noticed the disjunct between "Queen E. looked at him and has gone ...". -- JackofOz 05:59, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

Someone else already has (thanks, A.Z.!), but didn't cite any sources, which is exactly the reason I didn't start it myself. I don't have any sources to cite and don't even know where to start looking for them. —Angr 06:23, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

This is common, Jack, in English (probably all British in fact) football. Commentators and players often use this construction as opposed to the past tense. Maybe this is because they are talking over replays so it seems like it's happening now, or it's telling a story in the present tense or something but I suspect now it's just the culture. Certainly not as common in everyday speech. Also interesting apart from the tense used, is the use of the verb 'to be' to mean said. 'she has gone "quote"' or 'she wnet "quote"' rather than 'she said "quote"'. This is very common. Cyta 09:14, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

A-ha! So it is more widespread than I was aware of. Thanks indeed. Re the substitute for "said", I think you're referring to the verb "to go", aren't you? -- JackofOz 12:25, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

Yeah of course I am, I feel a bit stupid now.Cyta 07:30, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

All is forgiven, my son. Go, and sin no more. -- JackofOz 01:12, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

A side note: the situation is exactly the same as in my native Serbo-Croatian; namely, when reporting events from the past in a narrative manner, either (perfective) present tense (historical present), aorist (semantically corresponding with English PP or French passé simple) or past tense (semantically corresponding with English SP or French passé composé) can be used. However, usage of (historical) present or aorist better expresses the motion of the story than the past tense, and "makes the narration more vivid". Otherwise, outside of narrative contexts (such as storytelling), aorist is fairly dead. I could take the quotation brought from K.C.Tang almost word for word. Oh, and he could spend some of his incountable money on this one :-) Duja► 11:48, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

June 25

If 'photo' means light in some language (greek?), what is that language's word for darkness?

Hi all. I was wondering what the opposite of the word 'photo' would be in whichever language it came from. I've tried translators on the internet but to no avail. Much help appreciated ! Xhin Give Back Our Membership! 06:57, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

Photo comes from photos, light, and the verb photizo, to give light or shine, and the opposite of that is skotos, darkness, and the verb skotizo, to make dark. Adam Bishop 07:27, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

Thanks! So Skotosynthesis would be making energy from darkness? Xhin Give Back Our Membership! 09:24, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

Etymologically, maybe, but if you're making energy from the absence of something, how do you know it's the absence of light and not the absence of monkeys? απίθηκοσύνθεση (apithikosynthesis) -- "energy production from the absence of monkeys" :) --TotoBaggins 13:55, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

In any case, the synthesis part of photosynthesis does not mean "making energy" - it means making organic molecules like this one. Gandalf61

If we're making English words (as opposed to transliterating Greek words), the combining form is scoto-, as in scotophobia (fear of the dark), scotoscope (something that lets you see in the dark, a word in use from Pepys' diary of 1664 to Applied Optics in 1964), or scotograph ("an instrument with which a blind person may write"). Wareh 18:39, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

I've got a preposition for you...

An editor changed my sentence: "...it begins to break down frequently, as if it is ashamed of what it is being used for." because of the preposition at the end. Adposition is a turgid piece of prose that needs rewriting, and it doesn't say whether this is grammatical or not. Also, should it be "is ashamed" or "were ashamed"? Clarityfiend 07:19, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

As Sir Winston Churchill (alledgedly) said, after being corrected by a pedantic civil servant for ending a sentence in a preposition. 'This is the type of arrant pedantry, up with which I will not put' Cyta 09:18, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

We can't say "*as if it is ashamed of for what it is being used". We need a noun after "ashamed of", not a preposition. It's safer to use subjunctive ("were ashamed") in written English, though not really necessary in speech. Cheers.--K.C. Tang 10:02, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

I thought the deal with the subjunctive was that it was used for contrary to fact, but not for open statements. So if it may have actually been ashamed, then you'd say is, and if it wasn't ashamed, it was just acting like it was, then you would say were Storeye 10:33, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

No, that's not quite right. The key word is "if", which makes it a conditional phrase. That (ie. it being a conditional phrase) is what governs the subjunctive, not the factuality or otherwise of whatever follows it the word "if". -- JackofOz 12:22, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

But there's also the slightly dated "Had I been ashamed..." instead of "If I had been ashamed", so "if" isn't literally the only thing that governs the subjunctive.--Estrellador* 18:29, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

Quite right. The point I was making, though, is that conditional phrases govern the subjunctive. I wasn't saying that the only conditional phrases are those containing the word "if". I've clarified my previous post. -- JackofOz 22:08, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

I would just say "ashamed", without "it is" or "it were". Corvus cornix 18:06, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

But you could say "If the book is on the table, please bring it to me" with a conditional clause and no subjunctive. That is because the book may be on the table or it may not. If you say "If the book were on the table, then you would have brought it to me" using the subjunctive then you imply that the book is not on the table and you have not brought it to me. Conditional clauses can be used without the subjunctive. Storeye 01:30, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

I'm surprised at JackofOz, who said That (ie. it being a conditional phrase) is what governs the subjunctive, not the factuality or otherwise of whatever follows it the word "if". Try on "Bill's acting as if he's in charge of the project -- did those spineless fuckers in management really give it to him??" In this context, the subjunctive is used with counterfactual conditionals, not all conditionals. Also: "If I was out of line, I apologize." "If he's here right now, then he's heard the whole plan and we're screwed!" Tesseran 06:38, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

You could also say "as if he were in charge" and "If I were out of line". With the last example, it's not known whether he's here right now or not, so again, you could say "If he were here right now ..." without it necessarily meaning that he's not here. I wonder if the use of "was/is", instead of "were", changes the inherent syntactic conditionality of these expressions. -- JackofOz 00:30, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

I would interpret "If he were here right now" to mean "he's not here right now". The way I understood was/is/were with conditional clauses, is that were is used with contrary to fact (if he were here right now... but he's not) and future less vivid (if we were to set off immediately, (but we probobly won't) we would reach the city by nightfall). was is exclusively used with past tense conditionals (If he was here yesterday...) and is is used with open conditionals (if he is here now... (he may or may not be)). Storeye 05:08, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

Spanish translation

How would one say /my father watches the TV after he comes home from work/? and /a unicorn is an animal that is better than the rest/ in Spanish? Thank you.

AlmostCrimes 12:17, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

"Mi padre mira* el televisión después de trabajar" (lit. "my father watches television after work", but for some reason the verb "mirar" doesn't feel right) and "el unicornio es un animal mejor que los demás" (lit. "the unicorn is an animal better than the rest"). Eran of Arcadia 16:30, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

Wouldn't it be "mira al televisión"? Corvus cornix 18:07, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

"Mira la televisión" Skarioffszky 20:02, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

Or "el TV", since Spanglish is alive and well . . . Eran of Arcadia 02:21, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

The abbreviation "TV" is used in Spanish as well, as far as I know, and I'm pretty sure they say "la TV" when it stands in place of "la televisión". They may use "el TV" in place of "el televisor" (i.e. the television as a device, not what you watch on it). Mike Dillon 16:10, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Doesn't "mira" take "a" for the object of the verb? Corvus cornix 15:57, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

It does if the direct object is a specific person or personified object. That usage is often called the "personal a". Mike Dillon 16:05, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

How about Mi padre mira la televisión al llegar a casa después de trabajar? That's "My father watches television upon arriving home after work(ing). -- Mwalcoff 22:43, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

The verb that goes with TV (at least where I come from, Spain) is ver, not mirar. "Mi padre mira la televisión" sounds more like "my father looks at the TV". So it would be, "Mi padre ve la televisión cuando vuelve a casa después de trabajar". As to the second, "Un unicornio es un animal que es mejor que el resto", at least literally. --RiseRover|^talk 19:16, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

Triple s in geographical names

The possessive apostrophe is commonly dropped in geographical names, eg. Wilsons Promontory, Pikes Peak, etc. These usages are usually governed by statute. In the USA it's the US Board on Geographic Names. In Australia, each state has its own arrangements, such as Victoria's Geographic Place Names Act 1998. We have a highway in Australia called the Princes Highway, named after a former Prince of Wales (later King Edward VIII). My question is a speculative one, dealing with a theoretical similar highway named after a princess. My guess is that it would be "Princesss Highway". The only problem is that has 3 s's in a row. Would that mitigate against such a naming, or are there precedents for such a sibilant monstrosity? -- JackofOz 12:48, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

It's common practice to just stick an apostrophe on the end of a word ending in s, with no additional s after that, so presumably they'd take that route (for that route). --TotoBaggins 13:58, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

Bass's Dock, near Ipswich in England, seems to be spelt with the apostrophe everywhere on the Internet... except here:

http://www.photographersdirect.com/buyers/stockphoto.asp?imageid=1284089

Just to confuse things, a landmark in Toronto -- the original main entrance to the CNE grounds -- is the Princes' Gate, which is correctly spelled with one S and an apostrophe because it is named after two princes.

Another sort of triple-S situation occurs with the historic Scottish counties of Inverness-shire and Ross-shire. These are usually spelled with a hyphen like that, but the unhyphenated style with a true triple S is not completely unknown.

--Anonymous, June 25, 2007, 20:23 (UTC).

Thanks. I think this will forever remain a theoretical possibility, if only because many people already mispronounce and/or misspell the Princes Highway as the "Princess Highway", so having a separate correctly spelled "Princess' Highway" would cause endless confusion. Besides, there are no princesses of whom Australians are so fond as to warrant such an honour in these republican times. -- JackofOz 04:38, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Not even Princess Di? Even fierce antiroyalists like Sinéad O'Connor like her. —Angr 05:26, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Much loved, but I suspect the time for memorials to her is now past. She's been somewhat overshadowed of recent years by Crown Princess Mary of Denmark, who probably wouldn't qualify anymore because she had to give up her Australian citizenship to marry Freddy boy. (Despite that, she's regularly referred to in the media as "Australia's Princess Mary" or similar, which I'm sure is very confusing to young Australians). -- JackofOz 06:00, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Although a freak set of a bit over 200 sudden deaths/abdications/marriages to inappropriate people/religious conversions would result in her being Queen of England (or Queen Consort, or whatever the King's wife is normally called), assuming the sudden lack of faith in the monarchy causes an upswelling of support for a republic. Confusing Manifestation 05:10, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

Very true. However, that's about on the same scale of likelihood as ... why, Australia having a "Princesss Highway".  :)- JackofOz 05:25, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

Toward vs towards

When is it correst to use toward vs towards?

Basically, either is correct, and they are interchangeable. The only rule is that you should be consistent, at least within a document, and use only one or the other. As I understand it, "toward" is preferred in written American English, while "towards" is preferred in written British English. I think that "towards" may be more common in spoken English on both sides of the Atlantic. Marco polo 14:41, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

I hardly ever see it used now, but toward is the only acceptable spelling when used as an adjective. The -s in towards is an Old English adverbial-genitive ending. — Gareth Hughes 14:48, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

That "toward" is preferred in American is news to me, an American. I hardly ever use "toward", and can't come up with an example where I would use it. Corvus cornix 18:09, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

Not even in "Come toward me."? --Wirbelwindヴィルヴェルヴィント (talk) 18:42, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

No. Though I would say "untoward". Corvus cornix 18:43, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

Untoward is an adjective (except in rare circumstances where it's a preposition), and thus shouldn't take the -s ending. In the sentence Come toward me, toward is a proposition. Traditionally, it would receive the adverbial-genitive ending, and Come towards me is still more common in British English. However, the form toward was an important regional variant, especially in the Westcountry, which seems to have been influential on the formation of American English. — Gareth Hughes 19:45, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

Thank you, I'm quite aware that untoward is an adjective. Corvus cornix 15:41, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

The OED gives a very good synopsis of this:

In English the history of -wards as an advb. suffix is identical with that of -ward (see -WARD 3 and 4); beside every adv. in -ward there has always existed (at least potentially) a parallel formation in -wards, and vice versa. The two forms are so nearly synonymous (the general sense of the advs. being ‘in the direction indicated by the first element of the compound’) that the choice between them is mostly determined by some notion of euphony in the particular context; some persons, apparently, have a fixed preference for the one or the other form. Sometimes, however, the difference in the form of the suffix corresponds to a difference in the shade of meaning conveyed, though it would not be possible to give any general rule that would be universally accepted. Where the meaning to be expressed includes the notion of manner as well as direction of movement, -wards is required, as in ‘to walk backwards’, ‘to write backwards’. In other instances the distinction seems to be that -wards is used when the adv. is meant to express a definite direction in contrast with other directions: thus we say ‘it is moving forwards if it is moving at all’, but ‘to come forward’, not ‘forwards’ (see further the note on FORWARD adv.); so ‘to travel eastward’ expresses generally the notion of travelling in the direction of an eastern goal, ‘to travel eastwards’ implies that the direction is thought of as contrasted with other possible directions. Hence -wards seems to have an air of precision which has caused it to be avoided in poetical use. There appears to be no appreciable difference in meaning between the prepositions TOWARD and TOWARDS; the latter is now, at least in British use, more common colloquially. The now obsolete prepositions FROMWARD and FROMWARDS appear to have been perfectly synonymous.[6]

Maybe I'm a grammar geek, but I find this fascinating. — Gareth Hughes 14:43, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

The American preference for "toward" in writing was news to me when I began my career as an editor, but if you look at most (all?) American dictionaries, you will find that "toward" is the first form listed. Therefore, it is considered the "preferred" form by editors, who in turn enforce it in published material. I am American, and, as I said, I think that in spoken American English, "towards" is certainly more common. Marco polo 14:44, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

It seems like an odd thing to enforce. Sure, there are some sentences in which one or other variant sounds wrong, but, as the OED points out, most people have a subconscious feel for the 'right' variety. Some editors' style manuals are too prescriptive on this kind of issue. — Gareth Hughes 15:11, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

No need to apologise for being a grammar geek, Gareth. The world would be lost without us. -- JackofOz 22:15, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

a/an FAQ

Should FAQ, when speaking of the document itself, be preceded by "a" or "an"? I've always used "an" since the first syllable of "FAQ" is pronounced "eff" but then I've recently seen it preceded by an "a". I'm guessing that's because it actually stands for Frequently which obviously doesn't start with a vowel sound. Dismas|^(talk) 18:03, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

It depends on whether you pronounce it like "fack" or like "f. a. q.". Corvus cornix 18:10, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

Most people I know that I've heard seem to pronounce it out as "fack", thus a FAQ makes sense. --Wirbelwindヴィルヴェルヴィント (talk) 18:40, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

According to our FAQ article: "Since the acronym originated in textual media, its pronunciation varies; both "fak" and "F.A.Q." are commonly heard." Looking this up on dictionary.com gives two pronunciations: /fæk, ˈɛfˈeɪˈkyu/.[7]  --Lambiam^Talk 19:28, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

I don't pronouce it "fack" so I hadn't thought of that. Thanks! Dismas|^(talk) 02:21, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

I guess the harder question is what do you put if writing it, 'a' or 'an'? Personally I would go for 'an', since I've always pronounced it "eff ay queue" rather than "fack". --Richardrj ^{talk email} 15:04, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Me too. Never heard "fack" till this question (but I do lead a very secluded life). Tangentially, and I know some would disagree, but I'd only call it an acronym when it's pronounced "fack". When it's "eff ay queue", it's an initialism. -- JackofOz 22:14, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

I've never heard it pronounced anything but "fack", and certainly never "eff eh cue". I didn't even know anyone pronounced it that way. To me, it's an acronym. --Charlene 08:12, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

French etymological dictionary

Can anyone recommend a good French etymological dictionary? I have lots of French-English dictionaries that I used when I was younger but now I am more interested in a real French dictionary. Ideally it would trace etymologies through Latin and Old French. And it would be affordable, and not too enormous! I was trying to search Google and Amazon but I wouldn't even know where to begin. Adam Bishop 21:25, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

I have a good one; it's the Larousse Nouveau dictionnaire étymologique et historique, ISBN 2-03-710006-X, by Albert Dauzat, Jean Dubois, and Henri Mitterand. It traces words back through Old French to Latin and has a good summary of the sound changes that took place between Latin and French. It's compact and paperback, and presumably affordable or I wouldn't have bought it, though to be honest at this point I have absolutely no idea where or when I bought it or how much it cost. —Angr 21:46, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

Great, thanks! Adam Bishop 07:43, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Tones in Mandarin Songs

When a person sings in Mandarin, do the tones get more relaxed to fit the music? --Duomillia 23:43, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

Yes, they do, so sometimes it's not easy to decipher what the singer sings. The "musical license" is not so lax in Cantonese, or some other Chinese spoken variants, though. You can take a look at this article, whose bibliography is useful. Cheers.--K.C. Tang 01:27, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Interesting article, although a bit poorly written. The link above is to an HTML conversion. Here is the original PDF. --Tugbug 23:35, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

June 26

Ontario Secondary School Literacy Test

Hello. I googled the title above; I can only find tests later than 2005 and a sample. Where can I find tests dated 2005 or earlier? Thanks in advance. --Mayfare 01:41, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Which

Which Norwegian dialect is most different from Danish?199.126.28.20 14:47, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Nynorsk is the Norwegian standard most distant from Danish, compared to Bokmål. The unofficial Høgnorsk is further still from Danish. — Gareth Hughes 15:16, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Those are orthographies. I'm talking about dialects. Thanks for your answer though.199.126.28.20 13:19, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

Actually, there are different grammatical features between BN and NN (not to mention the whole "Abominable Snowman" incident). AnonMoos 16:14, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

Actually, these are from the Orthographies, not the Phonologies.199.126.28.20 23:30, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

They are different varieties of Norwegian, not just systems of spelling. — Gareth Hughes 22:34, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

Actually, they aren't. They are systems of spelling that do not reflect dialect.199.126.28.20 23:31, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

Dude: 1) You don't seem to know as much as you think you know. 2) If you think you know it all, why are you asking questions in the first place? 3) Please don't add nonsensical comments to my user talk page. AnonMoos 06:42, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

Trait

How is it pronounced? Does it have a silent "t" at the end? 82.153.126.93 17:17, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

No, the "t" is not silent. It is pronounced so as to rhyme with "great". (JosephASpadaro 17:35, 26 June 2007 (UTC))

Well, the wiktionary entry (wikt:trait) lists a pronounciation with a silent T, but here in the states, I have never heard it pronounced that way. I assume it has something to do with the French. IPA for my pronunciation /treɪt/.-Andrew c 18:48, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

The Longman Pronunciation Dictionary says the t-less pronunciation /treɪ/ is standard in Britain, but the t-ful pronunciation /treɪt/ is also used there; in the U.S. only the t-ful pronunciation is used. No word on Canada, Australia, et al. —Angr 18:53, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

I've heard both in the UK. Strange that the US shun the French pronunciation which is embraced with words like homage.  slυмgυм [ ←→ ] 18:57, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Well, English speakers (throughout the world!) are nothing if not inconsistent. Garage is a better example, though; I'd pronounce homage [ˈhɑmɪdʒ], not [oˈmɑʒ]. —Angr 19:15, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

FYI, [r] is a trilled r. It's proabably more like [tɹeɪt]. Mike Dillon 19:24, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

I have occasionally heard the "tray" version. I remember a teacher of mine who terrorised us students in various ways (or so we perceived it), and was always attributing poor performance to certain unnamed negative "trays" of character we supposedly possessed. (I wonder what ever happened to him. Hello, Mr. H, if you're reading this.) -- JackofOz 22:08, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Chambers Dictionary gives both pronunciations, in my experience, the silent t pronunciation is rather poseur-ish.DuncanHill 23:47, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Regarding the trill, as International Phonetic Alphabet for English states, the r in English is often written /r/ in broad transcription, not ɹ. But Mike Dillon is absolutely correct on the technical uses of these characters in the International Phonetic Alphabet.-Andrew c 22:55, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

I think we actually used [r] in my Phonetics class in college and I didn't realize until recently that it's an alveolar trill, not an alveolar approximant. I think it's kind of unfortunate that the distinction is ignored in English transcriptions. Mike Dillon 23:59, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

For some of us it's not a trilled R, we pronounce it more like a w. Rhotacism is not to be laughed at! (Unless it's Jonathan Ross's). DuncanHill 12:09, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

Well I personally have never heard it any other way than with the t pronounced at the end, and I've lived in the north and south of England, so I don't know if this is a British English thing. Maybe I just knew the wrong class of people? Cyta 07:42, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

Is it somewhat similar to the essex dialect where butter has 3 'silent' ts (although theres some other slight sound in their place)? or is it more related to trying to be sophisticated and french? 213.48.15.234 09:38, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

It's a French word, meaning "line" or "feature (of the face or personality)" which has been adopted as a loan word, and is now undergoing a process of assimilation. Since English typically keeps the original spelling of loan words from languages who use the Latin alphabet, there is a period of uncertainty over pronunciation, and then the word normally joins the class of loan words which are pronounced neither as they are spelled in English, nor as they are in the original language(like, for example, courage and language).SaundersW 11:39, 27 June 2007 (UTC) (added signature)

Cool, do we have an article on the essexy pronounciation that i mentionned? 213.48.15.234 13:04, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

Is glottal stop what you're looking for? 84.239.133.38 16:34, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

Yes, glottal stop would be my answer as well. Final /t/ in many English varieties, rather than altogether deleted, is weakened. Incidentally, I find native English speakers to be totally unaware of just how often the glottal stop appears in their speech. As a speaker of another language that makes prolific use of this sound, this is immediately obvious to me, although there, it's phonemic and the degree of glottalization is more pronounced. In linguistics texts, "uh-oh" is the most widely cited example of what a glottal stop sounds like, although for many speakers of American English "wait", "trait" (if they occur at the end of a sentence) and especially "kitten" will do fine. There is a small explantion of this at glottal stop#Occurrence. — Zerida 06:14, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

Anglo-Saxon equivalent of loanwords

I was thinking of English words which are borrowed, and I wonder why they were borrowed:

• "cousin", "uncle"
• "age"
• "empathy"
• "candor"

How would these concepts have been expressed in English before the Norman Conquest?

age = ieldu a feminine abstract noun. DuncanHill 00:06, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

• fæderan sunu (paternal uncle's son), mōdrigan sunu (maternal aunt's son), mōdrige (maternal aunt's daughter)
• fædera (paternal uncle), ēam (maternal uncle)
• ield (age)
• mōdes styrung (stiring of mood)
• heortes openian (open of heart)

— Gareth Hughes 00:07, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

And many more words beside. Beef certainly existed before the Norman conquest, even though "beef" is a Norman borrowing. It was the contexts in which they were used more that related many things to the meanings they have today. Consider also cognates borrowed separately into English: Guardian (of French origin) and Warden (of Norman origin) are direct cognates, but have taken two slightly different meanings in English. Chase (cf. French chasser) and catch (cf. Norman cachi) are also direct cognates, but have taken two separate meanings in English—while we have retained the Germanic "hunt" to mean what these words mean in French and Norman. Many more such examples exist in English. The Jade Knight 07:17, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

Different words were borrowed for different reasons. The language of the educated was Latin for much of Anglo-Saxon (~500-1066 AD) times, although (old) English was also used. Danish vikings ran a lot of the North and East of the country (Danelaw) pre-conquest. Norman French (which had Norse influences) became the language of government for a few hundred years after the conquest but the ordinary people continued to use (middle) English. Later writers, short of words, would often borrow from other languages as well, especially Latin and Greek. And there was some limited Celtic influence. Now how each individual word was chosen from this mix of influences is hard to trace. But certain trends are noticable, for example, beef for the meat as the Norman rulers would eat it, cow for the animal as the Anglo-Saxons would grow it. Everyday words tend to be more Germanic. But for most words you simply can't say why one was chosen over another. Also as mentioned by Jade above, instead of simply choosing one of two options to express something, subtly different meanings emerged. I can recommend The Adventure of English by Melvin Bragg which discusses the different influences and the amazing persistance and spread of the English language to this day. Cyta 07:54, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

Wouldn't "beef" have been the AS equivalent of "cow flesh"? Corvus cornix 16:57, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

I think cow flesh May have been AS for beef rather than vice versa. Or maybe something like cu flaesc, I am not sure? 137.138.46.155 06:56, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

I don't know if the Old English word for "beef" is attested, but I doubt it would be cūflǣsc, since that would imply the meat specifically of a female cow, and beef can just as easily be from a bull or ox. Hrīðerflǣsc is more likely to have been the word; hrīðer was the generic word for Bos taurus without regard to sex or reproductive ability. Modern English is lacking a singular form for "cattle". —Angr 21:00, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

Interesting Angr, the modern German is Rindfleisch, it sounds similar enough to have had the same root, so that sounds good to me. Cyta 07:33, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

Yes, hrīðer is related to Rind. But hrīðerflǣsc is just my guess - AFAIK it isn't actually attested in Old English, so we don't know if that was actually their word for beef. —Angr 00:56, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

Ox or Beef would be the Modern English singular for cattle. DuncanHill 21:03, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

I thought ox meant specifically a castrated male, thus, heifers, cows, and intact bulls aren't oxen. And I thought a beef was a full-grown Bos taurus grown for its meat, thus a calf isn't a beef, and neither is a milch cow. There's the word neat, which seems to mean an individual head of cattle, but it's also pretty archaic and not part of most people's active vocabulary (in the relevant meaning). —Angr 21:12, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

Cattlebeast is relatively common in these parts, or even just 'head'. --Charlene 08:07, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

"Ox" is given by Chambers Dictionary as "a general name for male or female of common domestic cattle" it does go on to give the usage for a castrated male also, for "beef" it has "an ox, especially one fattenned for the butcher", and I've certainly heard (and used) both ox and beef to refer to individuals of the bos genus without confusion, when talking to farmers. "Beast" is used generally for any animal, haven't heard "cattlebeast" before, but it makes sense, and would be immediately understandable. "Head" I've only heard when talking of a number (eg "Six head of cattle") but it wouldn't surprise me to hear it used as Charlene describes. DuncanHill 08:25, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

"Neat" I must admit I'm not familiar with - though "Neat's foot oil" I have heard of, for some reason "neat" sounds to me as though it would be a Northern English word (I grew up in Cornwall, of Moonraker stock, so am largely unfamiliar with Norther farming terminology). DuncanHill 08:28, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

You do occasionally see the plural of cow written as "beeves". Corvus cornix 19:57, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

Amusingly enough, the words cow and beef are doublets; both come directly from Proto-Indo-European *gʷōu-. —Angr 00:56, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

June 27

Tacitus quote spelling

In various websites the famous desolation quote is spelt this way: "Ubi solitudinem facuint pacem appellant" the u and i in faciunt are reversed. Is this just a spelling error, or is it a grammatical feature in Latin

"Ubi solitudinem facuint pacem appellant" gets 9 Google hits, while "Ubi solitudinem faciunt pacem appellant" gets 10,000, so I think it's safe to say it's just a typo. --TotoBaggins 15:26, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

faciunt is the present tense third person plural form of facio. It's been a while, but I don't think any Latin verbs that take -int as an ending. So just a spelling error. — Laura Scudder ☎ 16:43, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

(I guess sint ends in -int.) The quote from Tacitus' Calgacus has been duly corrected above. See Tac. Hist. 4.17 for a nice parallel. Wareh 17:29, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

The 3rd plural of the future perfect and the perfect subjunctive end in -erint; I think that and sint are the only times a verb ends in -int in Latin. So the only form of facio that ends in -int is fēcerint, both "they will have done" and "they may have done". —Angr

Meaning of these lyrics?

In the Nelly Furtado song "All Good Things" it says

Dogs were whistling a new tune

Barking at the new moon

Hoping it would come soon so that they could die

I mean it sounds all good and poetic but what exactly does it mean and what does it have to do with the rest of the song? Why do the dogs want to die? --124.180.103.210 13:01, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

Dogs generally have a great zeal for life, so I can't comment on that, but I note that dogs are unlikely to bark at the new moon, since it's (mostly) invisible. --TotoBaggins 15:29, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

My interpretation is that the dogs do not want to die, but "all good things come to an end." Perhaps the dogs want to see the moon again so they can die happy, but their eventual death is certain, which is the theme of the song.--El aprendelenguas 18:21, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

Norwegian Continuum

Is it correct to say that Danish dialects and Norwegian dialects form a continuum?199.126.28.20 13:23, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

Have you checked out Differences between Norwegian Bokmål and Standard Danish?-Andrew c 14:42, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

I think that it is fair to say that Danish dialects and Norwegian dialects do not form a continuum. The two dialect groups are separated by a rather large body of water that really prevents the existence of a continuum. There are no Norwegian dialects that are closer to a Danish dialect than they are to a Norwegian standard form. On the other hand, a good case can be made that Scandinavian dialects in general do form a continuum, in which a continuum exists between the dialects of Norway and those of western Sweden on the one hand, and between the dialects of southern Sweden, such as Scanian, and those of Denmark on the other. Marco polo 16:05, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

what is the english equivalent of the name Diego?

what is the english equivalent of the name Diego? Gzuckier 14:17, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

James. --LarryMac | Talk 14:27, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

no kidding? what about jaime? never mind, I read the link. (and thank you)Gzuckier::

Jaime is addressed at the bottom of the article I linked. OK, never mind :-) --LarryMac | Talk 14:37, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

The sequence Ya'acov => Iakobos => Iacobus => Iacomus => Gemmes => James also explains why supporters of James II of England were called "Jacobins" or "Jacobites". --TotoBaggins 15:36, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

You may also see "Tiago" and "Iago" in Spanish. For example, Saint James is "Santiago". (Santiago de Compostela) Corvus cornix 16:59, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

According to the article San Diego, Diego is the Spanish name of Didacus of Alcalá, so it's a completely different name from James. A Dictionary of First Names (ISBN 0-19-211651-7) says, "Although it is often claimed to be an aphetic form of Santiago, it is clear that its regular Latin form in the Middle Ages was Didacus. This may possibly be a derivative of Greek didakhē teaching, but it is more likely that it represents a Latinized form of some native Iberian name." —Angr 17:38, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

What's the symbol "L" mean?

What is the symbol at the start of "L-ascorbate" which is used, for example, in the article on Vitamin C. (I'm referring to the small, uppercase "L".) Does this have a special name? How would you vocalize this? That is, would one say "ell ascorbate" or would you say something else? Why is it used and written the way it is in the article? --JAXHERE | ^Talk 15:43, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

I can't claim to understand it really, but see Enantiomer. This has a bit about naming conventions including the "l-whatever". Friday (talk) 15:46, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

More at Optical_isomerism#Naming_conventions DuncanHill 15:47, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

The articles help a bit into putting this into context and I get the impression that it might be an anglicized greek letter, but what is the symbol called? And how is it vocalized when used in the example above? --JAXHERE | ^Talk 15:57, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

It looks like it's sometimes written as a plain old "l", pronounced, I assume "el". Not sure why they use the special l unless it's just to draw attention to the fact that it's about chirality. Friday (talk) 15:59, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

L and D are short for Laevo- and Dextro-, from Latin (not Greek) roots meaning "left" and "right" -- see Optical_isomerism#By_configuration:_D-_and_L- AnonMoos 16:11, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

So, if a person were giving a talk about this topic would they say "Laevo ascorbate" ? --JAXHERE | ^Talk 16:16, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

Usually people say "L-ascorbate". Shorter and easier. — Laura Scudder ☎ 16:25, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

Other famous L's are L-Dopa, which played a starring role in Awakenings, and L-Cysteine, a food additive mainly sourced from the hair of Chinese people (!). --TotoBaggins 19:14, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

Two notes: first, in American spelling it's "levo" rather than "laevo". Second, I've never seen the abbreviation written as a small capital before, only as an ordinary capital "L" or a lower case "l" ... but while I've read a number of books things that mention such chemicals, I haven't studied organic chemistry. --Anonymous, June 27, 22:45 (UTC).

Is this correct?

Then, maybe you'd be able to believe that the apple tree might be a really, truly story.

Is this really, truly a correct way say a story is factual rather than fictional? It seems off to me, but it was printed that way in a 100 year old book. If it is correct, why does it seems so wrong?--BirgitteSB 18:06, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

What sounds off to me is the use of truly as an adjective. I'd probably have said "really a true story". —Angr 18:12, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

(edit conflict after Angr): According to Wiktionary:truly, truly can only be used as an adverb, and therefore, it cannot modify a noun (in this case, story). The use of really is also questionable because of the comma; it's another adverb in the place of an adjective.--El aprendelenguas 18:17, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

If it was published that way, I'd think it could be intentional. Colloquially, and for effect, you can turn almost anything into an adjectival attribute. It's the exclamatory sense "Really, truly!" that's probably relevant (compare "a gee-whiz demonstration," "a golly golly wow revelation," etc.). Wareh 18:50, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

I think in modern books it might be written as:

...might be a "really, truly!" story.

or something to that effect. At least that looks less painful to me... Tesseran 23:33, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

Hitler was a vegetarian

Sometimes people use the "argument" that since Hitler was a vegetarian, then being vegetarian is wrong. Is this a kind of logical fallacy? It's obviously faulty logic, but I'm wondering what kind. - Zepheus <ゼィフィアス> 20:43, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

Correlation does not imply causation would seem to cover it. DuncanHill 20:52, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

Association fallacy. We actually mention the Hitler example in the article. Replacing 'A' with Hitler, 'B' with evil and 'C' with vegetarian, we get:

Premise Hitler is evil

Premise Hitler is also a vegetarian

Conclusion Therefore, all vegetarians are evil

— Matt Eason ^{(Talk &#149; Contribs)} 21:03, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

Thanks! Not that people who espouse this argument will ever comprehend this article. Maybe you guys can answer my next question as well. - Zepheus <ゼィフィアス> 23:04, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

Hitler wore a mustache. (So did Stalin for that matter) Therefore, wearing a mustache is evil. --Duomillia 23:08, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

Yeah. I love it. I actually saw this vegetarian argument being used on a Yahoo! message board. I argued that since Hitler was also a painter and a writer, that those were evil too. - Zepheus <ゼィフィアス> 23:59, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

There were also the parody ads that said, "Hitler wore khakis". —Angr 04:54, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

And there is the other argument, "Hitler was a vegetarian. Therefore Hitler was evil."  --Lambiam^Talk 05:33, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

Some of us not-evil vegetarians would like to point out that the vegetarianism of Adolf Hitler is disputed.--Shantavira|^{feed me} 06:57, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

I suspect people use this as an argument to point out the fallacy of saying that because Hitler did something it's bad, rather than seriously believing this is why vegetarianism is evil. Reductio ad Hitlerum is a common argument and this is a good example to make the point. Oh and Saddam Hussein, Robert Mugabe and Tom Selleck also has moustaches, one man may not prove anything but the evidence is adding up... Cyta 07:01, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

Hitler was a wikipedian. 213.48.15.234 10:25, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

• Are we to conclude that all wikipedians are vegetarians with moustaches? JAXHERE | ^Talk 16:59, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

Life is unfair.

I remember in elementary school that when kids would complain that something was "unfair," the teacher would respond with "life is unfair." How does this justify an unfair action? Is there a logical fallacy in this? Thanks in advance. - Zepheus <ゼィフィアス> 23:04, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

I don't know that there is a logical fallacy here. It seems to me that the teacher is not saying "life is unfair, therefore I can treat you unfairly," but rather "I understand that you feel this is 'unfair,' but life does not always conform to your conception of 'fairness.'" Carom 23:15, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

It always seems to me to be used in the sense of "I don't care if it's unfair". DuncanHill 23:19, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

I see it as "Yes, this is unfair. What you have neglected to consider is that not everything is fair, and the unfairness of something is not a valid objection to it." [Edit: I've always heard "life's not fair" instead, not that it matters.] Tesseran 23:26, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

I think you're right Tesseran that it's more commonly "Life's not fair." It's been a while since elementary school. This might head into a more philosophical discussion unsuited to this board, but I often felt that teachers/adults/whoever would use "life's not fair" essentially as justification for behaving in an unfair matter, essentially an easy out. Instead of taking the time to make the situation equitable, simply saying a phrase in the guise of teaching someone a life lesson. - Zepheus <ゼィフィアス> 23:54, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

Google counts: about 60,600 for "life's not fair", about 139,000 for "life is unfair". The Princess Bride has a nice expansion on the phrase: "Life is pain, Highness. Anyone who says differently is selling something." (At least, that's the wording in the movie; I don't know about the book.) --Anonymous, June 28, 2007, 00:10 (UTC).

Not that it's especially relevant, but the variant I remember is "life isn't fair," which returns 182,000 google hits (for what those are worth). Carom 00:15, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

The extension my mother always used when I was a kid was, "Life isn't fair. John F. Kennedy said that, and look what happened to him." Thus teaching me that complaining that life isn't fair will get you elected president. Or assassinated. Or something... —Angr 04:57, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

I bet that if the complaint is Aw mom/teacher, that's not fair!, the response is: Life isn't fair. If, on the other hand, the kid complains: Aw mom/teacher, that is unfair!, the response is going to be: Life is unfair. In other words, the response is morphed to echo (and thereby ever so slightly mock) the complaint. I don't think that as a response it is meant to stand up to ethical or philosophical scrutiny. It is a response that is selected for being unanswerable, and is a way of saying: I don't want to discuss this.  --Lambiam^Talk 05:30, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

Or "You're right, but I'm not going to do anything about it."

As to the morphing, I agree. But I'm not going to do anything about it. :-) In Lambiam's first example, I think "that's not fair" should draw the response "life's not fair", while it's "that isn't fair" that gets "life isn't fair". --Anonymous, June 28, 06:45 (UTC).

The book does not necessarily correspond to the film (even in terms of major plot elements). I'm not sure if the statement is even in the book. The Jade Knight 09:18, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

I used to tell my kids "Fare is what you give to the bus driver." in an attempt to drive home the idea that what they wanted (what's "fair") isn't necessarily what they should expect. JAXHERE | ^Talk 17:07, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

"Life is unfair, but it's unfair for everybody, so that makes it fair". See Central limit theorem Gzuckier 17:55, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

And my experience as a teacher was that student's ideas of what was 'unfair' were not always the best actions. For example, my students object that it is 'unfair' that students with severe learning disabilities get to take a shorter, easier test than they do, without considering the difference in difficulty it will pose to those students. Or they will complain that it is 'unfair' that some other class is taking a field trip and they are not, as if different classes don't do different activities every day. Children's ideas of fairness often require perfect sameness, and 'life is unfair' generally is a reminder that conditions of perfect sameness rarely occur in reality. -FisherQueen (Talk) 18:00, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

It does rather bug me that people will tell kids not to expect fairness. Sure, there are factors they can't see which means that the apparent unfairness is actually fairer than they think, and so "life is unfair" is a lie-to-children, but it would be a better world if more people had an expectation of justice and a willingness to do something about it, and stifling that in children isn't going to work towards that. Marnanel 18:15, 28 June 2007 (UTC) (not a teacher, just a parent)

To reply to a complaint of unfairness with "life's unfair" tells a child that you don't care about fairness. As well as inevitably undermining the child's respect for and trust in you, it also teaches the child that "it's OK to be unfair". Hardly the behaviour of a responsible adult. Life is, indeed, often unfair, but that does not absolve us of our moral duty to promote fairness, rather it makes it even more of an imperative for us to act as fairly as we can, and to support and encourage others who seek fair treatment. DuncanHill 20:38, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

FisherQueen has it really; the lack of fairness usually complained about generally corresponds to things not going the way the child wants, rather than any real inequality. "That's not fair!" "You keep saying that. I wonder, what is your basis for comparison?" Skittle 21:12, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

Sorry but the idea that we teach kids to only expect fairness because otherwise it would 'stifle' them is A) A little patronising to the children (as if they minds are purely what teachers/family tell them and they are entirely influenced by what they are told) B) A little stuck in the realm of 'ideal world' scenario rather than reality. The key is to give children the encouragement to question things they disagree with, to push for what they believe in and to stand up against unacceptable behaviour. In doings so children will also need to learn the vital lessons that in real-life they will have to accept balances of power against them, they'll have to accept that sometimes what they say is not the 'be all and end all', that sometimes the things they fight to change will not happen. Maybe not forever, maybe not always, but at times they will encounter unfairness. I suspect that a child's understanding of fairness is gathered from slightly more sources than simply their calling 'unfair' and being told "life is unfair'. Or perhaps i'm expecting far too much from the children? ny156uk 01:25, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

I never once said that we should "teach kids to only expect fairness". I said that we shouldn't tell them not to expect fairness on the grounds that life in general is not fair. These are not the same thing, so you're attacking a straw man. Marnanel 11:26, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

If a child says "that's not fair" then talk with them about why or how it isn't fair, explain to them why it needs to be that way, etc. To come out with "Life's not fair" does nothing constructive. DuncanHill 11:57, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

Well said. Marnanel 12:22, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

I definitely agree with DuncanHill on this one. I often feel that the phrase hid the message "it's OK to be unfair," when figures of authority should be promoting equality and explaining it to their children/students. I loved this quote, "that does not absolve us of our moral duty to promote fairness." Well said. Thanks for the excellent dialogue; it's so much more thoughtful and well-written than, say, the IMDb Message Boards. - Zepheus <ゼィフィアス> 17:14, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

June 28

Kalantaryan

The name Kalantaryan (Калантарян) was recently added in Sergey Lavrov. This article ("Sergey Lavrov has georgian roots, but armenian blood") says he is the son of an armenian from Georgia (country). Is this his fathers name? -- Cherubino 21:34, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

It seems to have been added to both the English and Russian articles on June 12 by IP editors. There's no explanation given. A google search didn't shed any light on it, either (nothing but Wikipedia and Wikipedia-derived stuff). Weird. --Reuben 22:37, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

I know that the previous foreign minister, Igor Ivanov, is half-Georgian. He knows the language well and used to mediate between Georgia and Abkhazia. As for Lavrov, the claim in Russian Wikipedia is taken from an Azerbaijani online resource which cites an Armenian newspaper's report about Lavrov's press conference in Yerevan. Given the parlous state of Armenian-Azerbaijani relations, the issue is very touchy and the sources are not very reliable. --Ghirla^-трёп- 19:44, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

June 29

Anyone know some good Welshisms?

I'm looking for as many Weshisms I can possibly collect. By Welshisms, I mean things the Welsh say in English (or combined with English) that would mark them as Welsh. As an example, "Top o' th' mornin'" would be considered an Irishism (whether or not the Irish ever use it, I've never heard one say it). Anyone know any of these for Welsh? Krys Tamar 02:49, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

Look you, do you think I am so twp as to answer that question?... Clarityfiend 03:15, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

....boyo.--Shantavira|^{feed me} 06:46, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

I thought "boyo" was a Hibernicism. —Angr 07:08, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

You could try the article on Welsh English, and I think boyo is Welsh. Although as with top of the morning I've never heard a Welshman say it. Cyta 07:36, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

A couple of things I've noticed the people in our Welsh head office say. "look see" instead of "look at this" and ending sentences with "isn't it". - X201 07:51, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

My wife, after moving to her southern Welsh village from England, would still be described by locals as being "from away" even after ten years' residence. This tickles me no end.

"Ye" (corresponding with Welsh "Ie"), meaning "yeah" or "yes". Seems like they say this all the time. "Oh, ye ye". The Jade Knight 02:11, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

Quote

Can anybody translate this quote

You can praise me, disagree with me, quote me, disbelieve me, glorify or vilify me but the only thing you can't do is ignore me.

into:

Language	Translation
Spanish	Usted me puede alabar, no estar de acuerdo conmigo, cotizarme, no creerme, glorificarme o vilipendarme pero la única cosa que no puede hacer es ignorarme. =)
French	Vous me pouvez éloge, ne êtes pas d'accord avec moi, citer moi, ne me croyez pas, glorifier moi ou vilipendar moi mais la seule chose que vous ne pouvez pas faire êtes ignorer moi. =) Vous pouvez me louer, ne pas être de mon avis, me citer, ne pas me croire, me glorifier ou me dénigrer mais la seule chose que vous ne pouvez pas faire est de m'ignorer. (2) On peut me louer, ne pas être de mon avis, me citer, ne pas me croire, me glorifier ou me dénigrer mais la seule chose qu'on ne peut pas faire est de m'ignorer. (3)
German	Du kannst mich loben, mir widersprechen, mich zitieren, mir nicht glauben, mich preisen oder verteufeln, aber das einzige, was du nicht kannst, ist mich zu ignorieren.
Russian	Можете хвалить меня, не соглашаться со мной, цитировать меня, не верить мне, прославлять или поносить меня, но что вы не можете делать, так это не замечать меня.
Arabic
Farsi
Turkish
Urdu
Hindi
Tamil
Chinese (traditional)
Japanese
Korean
Filipino

Fill in what you can. I would appreciate it. Thank you! --hello, i'm a member | talk to me! 05:25, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

I added a German translation. Many of these words could be translated differently (and at least "vilify" was new to me), though. I tried to keep it short and idiomatic. --Dapeteばか 13:12, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

Russian translation added. --Ghirla^-трёп- 19:49, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

(2) (Direct) French translation added. First one is bad grammar. AldoSyrt 20:31, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

Note that different translators here make different assumptions on whether the tone should be formal or informal. There is no hint in the original English sentence since English lacks the T-V distinction. In the translations above, the Spanish, French and Russian ones are formal, while the German one is informal. You might want to specify what the level of formality should be, as well as how many people you are addressing and what sex they are. — Kpalion^(talk) 20:35, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

You are right. A "familiar" French translation: Tu peux me louer, ne pas être de mon avis, me citer, ne pas me croire, me glorifier ou me dénigrer mais la seule chose que tu ne peux pas faire est de m'ignorer. AldoSyrt 20:45, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

If "you" doesn't mean the speaker specifically, another option in French is to use "on peut". It's translated by "one can" in English, but in French is used more often than in English. I'll add that as (3) above. --Anon, June 30, 2007, 01:07 (UTC).

I made some corrections to the Spanish translation; cotizarme is one word, for example. Also, by reading the Spanish version, I feel that the English quote really loses some of its effect when it's translated, just so the person who posted it knows.--El aprendelenguas 21:40, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

Chinese? Rock inscription

Found this rock in a creek bed of an area which used to be panned for gold. This was an era when lots of Chinese migrated to Australia for the gold rush. Could someone please translate it?

http://www.flickr.com/photos/52507572@N00/657536306/

Thanks. --liquidGhoul 06:15, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

The character looks contain 车, so maybe a rather cursive 军 (?). Cheers.--K.C. Tang 08:02, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

That can be 金, of course, given the context.--K.C. Tang 01:33, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for those mate, it doesn't cease to amaze me what help you can get on wiki. I personally think, out of those choices, that it looks most like "cart", the "army" one just has too many horizontal lines. Is there any symbol like 车, but with a ^ at the top instead of the horizontal line? Thanks --liquidGhoul 06:23, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

Something detoriating

Detoriate (as in "detoriating conditions") is a word I've used often and one I'm sure to have heard being used often. So what's the right spelling of the word? Merci beaucoup.--202.164.142.82 18:30, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

Deteriorate. -FisherQueen (Talk) 18:33, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

grammar

should i say:this will be use OR this will be used?

This will be used. — Kpalion^(talk)

In this sentence 'used' is a past participle, and the phrase 'be used' is an infinitive marking the passive voice. Then 'will + infinitive' marks the future tense. If thaat makes any sense to you, it might help. — Gareth Hughes 19:04, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

7-0 or seven-o: a Secret Service code?

I'm subtitling a film. After an assasination, a Secret Service agent hold a man down and yells: "This guy's 7-0!" Does anyone know what that refers to? 84.48.169.39 23:44, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

It could be a fictional code inspired by 10-codes. Or a real-life one, of course. --Anonymous, June 30, 2007, 01:13 (UTC).

June 30

Learning Received Pronunciation

Does anyone know of any good web sites for learning how to speak English with good Received Pronunciation? Alternatively, are there any materials that would be readily found in an American library? I'm trying to pick up a proper British dialect, but don't really know where to start (apart from simply watching British television). The Jade Knight 02:07, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

You can stream British Radio (www.bbc.co.uk) via the internet, and Radio 4 is a wonderful source of British accents. It's easier to keep it on as a subliminal drip than TV, too.SaundersW 08:52, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

Birds of the Anatomy

Why are so many names and nicknames for types of birds (boobies, hooters, tits, cocks, etc.) also slang terms for parts of the human anatomy? --Carnildo 05:04, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

A great etymology site is...http://www.etymonline.com There you can put in words and it will explain the word's history. Tit seems to be something to with 'small' and so the birds are literally just named after a description of size (http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?search=tit&searchmode=none), hooters doesn't feature but I would venture a guess that 'hooters' are named after their voice...some owls at least 'hoot'. Not sure how it branched off to me breasts but I guess once a series of bird-based versions for breast occur people will start to 'add' new ones themselves, if they become popular they then become widespread. Cock seem to be 'to stand up' and since cock/hen is a very popular male/female term for birds (peacock/peahen) I guess they are just both meaning the same thing. I think cow/bull are used a lot for female/male in mammals too incidently. Boobies comes as (http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?search=boobies&searchmode=none). Quite an interesting site. Not sure of the links to bird-names though. ny156uk 10:36, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

Provincial tenses

Hello. I am writing something about Canadian provinces, and there are some situations were I am unsure of what verb tense to use. Most times it's obivious to use the singular "Ontario is ...," "Prince Edward Island has ...," etc. But I'm uncertain about two cases. Regarding Newfoundland and Labrador, is the singular correct, as in "Newfoundland and Labrador is Canada's newest province."? And what of the Northwest Territories? Years ago, when NWT was divided into several districts, it made sense to use the plural, as in "The Northwest Territories are north of the 60th parallel." But now that there are no divisions in NWT, should it be singular or plural? ("The Northwest Territories is/are between Yukon and Nunavut.") Thank you. — Michael J 19:17, 30 June 2007 (UTC)