Wikipedia:Village pump (policy)

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The policy section of the village pump is used to discuss existing and proposed policies.

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Getting rid of fair use

I'm seeing this issue come up over and over again. Most wikipedias prohibit fair use. Although I can see legit reasons to include some truly fair use images on en, I've observed that in practice it just leads to a whole lot of problems. A lot of people are claiming fair use for any image that they want to include, regardless of the legitimacy of the claim. A lot of people are spending time arguing over what is/is not fair use. I'm beginning to think that it's really just not worth it and it's greatly reducing the freeness of the english wikipedia. I know that a lot of people will object to depreciating fair use on wikipedia, but I also know that I've heard a lot of people voicing similar concerns to mine. How can we move towards putting this bad idea behind us? Matt 00:37, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

I'm all for it, with one exception: when the image itself is the subject of an article, such as Raising the Flag on Iwo Jima. --Carnildo 03:59, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

Err, that would be throwing the baby out with the bathwater. If we remove all fair use images, we'll leave a great many articles with no illustrations (perhaps permanently):

• Almost all articles dealing with modern art. This includes basically all movies, TV shows, paintings and other graphic arts, etc.
• Almost all articles dealing with fictional subjects.
• Many articles dealing with aspects of modern history not witnessed by US government photographers. Note that this would probably include all situations where the exact copyright status is unclear (e.g. Nazi photographs).
• And various others.

Aggressively pushing for free content is very good, of course; but let's not forget that we also want to be an encyclopedia, and one that can be competetive with commercial ones. Decimating our image libraries isn't really going to help in this regard. —Kirill Lokshin 05:02, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

I am not convinced that the "baby" in this case is all that valuable. We might end up with articles without illustration, so what? It would be interesting to see what percent of EB's articles include illustration (I don't know the answer to this). EB's article on Salvador Dalí (from what I can see from [1]) has no images. To say that we need "fair use" to compete with non-free publishers seems to me to be an argument for why a free encyclopedia can't be done. But de.wikipedia.org is doing it, and by most measures has been more succesful than en (unless you measure an encyclopedia by the number of pokemon articles). Matt 17:50, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

EB gets less than 1% of Wikipedia's hits so it is really rather insignificant as a competitor. We are competing with the whole (very well illustrated) www. Osomec 16:40, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

There is so much abuse of the "fair use" that we need a stronger wording that currently exist to discourage uploaders. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 04:44, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

NO! Getting rid of Fair Use will cripple Wikipedia. The IP laws are already restrictive enough, I don't see any reason not to take advantage of the little freedom we are given under law. We should encourage replacing Fair Use images where possible, but there are many instances where it is NOT possible ever (such as articles on video games and movies), where Fair Use is absolutely essential for a good article. Loom91 15:17, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

It is possible ever -- when the copyrights expire. Wikipedia would survive. It would also be more free, and more reproducable outside the US, both of which are healthy aims. Sam Korn ^(smoddy) 15:28, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

Copyrights only expire theoretically—no copyright has expired during the lifetime of Wikipedia. Passage of the Copyright Term Extension Act in 1998 (and its international counterparts), and the failure of legal challenge to it, virtually guarantees that another extension effort will occur before 2019 (the next time that copyrights might expire). Making policy decisions based on the assumption that copyrights will eventually expire seems overly credulous. I think we have to assume that nothing presently copyrighted will ever transfer into the public domain. --TreyHarris 16:31, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

I think there's some intermediate choices. We could establish an arbitrary limit, like one-per-article (with some sort of special procedure for granting exceptions). Right now, there's no incentive to make free images, because so many articles are already crammed-full of non-free ones, which are usually "prettier" than the free ones. --Rob 15:37, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

I agree getting stricter on fair use is a decent idea. i disagree with arbitary limits though. Screenshots and suchlike are essential to proper critical commentry on software products.

As for copyrights expiring yes that will happen eventually but for many things probablly not in our lifetimes. ALSO if we get rid of non-free images now then we still won't have them when thier copyrights expire unless someone else archived them! Plugwash 16:25, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

I'd propose allowing fair use images only when the following conditions are all satisfied A) it is a genuine fair use claim; no legal problems for Wikipedia; B) there is a compelling argument that the image is necessary to illustrate the article, and C) there is a compelling argument that a free alternative is either impossible to obtain, or it is highly unlikely that we could ever obtain one through reasonable means (however you define that!) — Matt Crypto 23:38, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

Why not use fair use where it is permisible, and there is no more open alternative? Why not take advantage of rights that are given under existing copyright law? Aggressive deletion of useful images for copyright-panic reasons only impoverishes us. For great justice. 20:12, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

I think we need to keep fair use until technology makes long range digital camera a reality. --Masssiveego 01:25, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

What is "long range digital camera"??? Arniep 12:07, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

My main concern regarding this, although I oppose it as per Kirill Lokshin, is what it would do to the books included in Wikipedia. Right now, the WikiProject Novels template is to use an infobox on the page of articles relating to novels, and these infoboxes include a picture of the cover of the first edition of the novel. I am concerned regarding the complications the elimination of fair use would cause for this project. While getting stricter is a decent idea, anything that would eliminate illustrations from articles, book covers from articles on books, and other such truly legitimate, fair uses would, indeed, be throwing the baby out with the bathwater. Users do not have the right to upload whatever they feel like, but the concept of fair use is an extremely important one. Abhorsen327 03:43, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

I don't see any reason to restrict Fair Use images beyond what the law will allow. There is no compelling argument in Matt's original post beyond "it's not worth the hassle". If this hassles anyone, I urge you to go do something else. There are tons of articles to write and proof and merge. Concentrate on something out of the modern era and you won't run up against as many image copyright problems.

Matt goes on to say "We might end up with articles without illustration, so what?". Can Matt or anyone else make a case that an encyclopedia should be just words?? Images are not only snazzy, pretty, and make a fine looking article, but are absolutely essential for understanding some subjects (e.g. Modern Art). Period.

It is suicide to drop Fair Use images because "they aren't worth it". Sheesh Madman 20:56, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

What about a preference tab for which class of licenses for images you want? Then someone wanting to browse for material not legal in their jurisdiction could just not see the ones they don't want. For great justice. 04:21, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

keep the fair use. It's a legal issue and the law is on our side. Giving up our rights does not help us--or any one else. Fair use is essential to every reference work. Rjensen 05:00, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

There is no such thing as a fair use right. Fair use is only a defense against copyright infringement. Almost no use is 'fair' until it is challenged in court and upheld as such. There is nothing that prevents content owners/distributors from taking away your supposed rights. DRM does precisely this when it restricts you from copying a song onto your iPod (the court-established fair use of 'space shifting'). It is precisely this legal ambiguity which is such a bane to the goal of creating a FREE encyclopedia. Anyone seeking to freely use en content has to weigh the costs of verifying the free status of such content. As Lessig points out in Free Culture, independently produced movies sometimes have to edit out scenes featuring use that would clearly be considered 'fair'. When they sign a distribution deal, the movie's creators are required to enumerate EVERY shot that could conceivably constitute any kind of copyright infringement risk. They are then forced to buy copyright insurance, in case claims were ever brought against the movie. In this case, the very risk that content MIGHT not constitute fair use renders it completely unusable. Audiodude 04:55, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

we give up fair use and Wiki is dead. Indeed, all reference works are dead. Giving up fair use means outsideres control what we are allowed to say about them. It is the oldest and most prized right regarding reference books and the courts have (nearly) always upheld us. The advantages of forfeiture? close to zero. Rjensen 05:07, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

While I think we should retain fair use here, if I'm not mistaken, some of the other wikis don't allow fair use and are working just fine. For example (and someone correct me if I'm wrong) the Italian wiki doesn't allow fair use images. There isn't any need for hyperbole. JoshuaZ 05:10, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

Correct. Most foreign language wikis attempt to conform both to the laws of the US (where the servers live), and the laws of the most prominent country or countries speaking that language, so that wiki content can be easily reused there. Most countries outside the US don't have a fair use provision; instead, many European countries rely on the more stringent notion of fair dealing. Also, I think some wikis may, like Commons, allow neither fair use nor fair dealing, so that only truly copyright free content is allowed. Dragons flight 05:20, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

I think the bottomline of this discussion is that we should exercise tight control over the fair use claims (such as only allowing a fixed set of fair use templates, screenshots, Nazis, etc., with strict patrolling for misplaced templates) and attempt to minimize the fair use images used. Maybe it should be policy that if there is a free/copyleft image and a fair use image both illustrating the same subject, we will discard the unfree image even if it is of superior quality. We should aim at having articles that would still be good if they were stripped of nonfree images (for example for the purpose of a derivative product, future "purist" fork, WP 1.0 on CD, etc.) dab (ᛏ) 13:58, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

I just think there are way too many supposedly 'fair use' images that are used for strictly illustrative (rather than critical, comparative, or instructional) purpose, ESPECIALLY on articles discussing aspects of popular culture or media. I would go so far as to say that a copyrighted album cover is unnecessary (and in fact detrimental for the legal ambiguities it introduces), unless of course there is something notable about the cover art which is discussed in the article Audiodude 19:28, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

Retaining the fair-use limits is non-negotiable as removing that limitation has the potential to disrupt future derivative projects and in contradiction with the GFDL. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 00:09, 29 April 2006 (UTC)

Fair use is an absolute must. Kill it off and you kill off Wikipedia. We should be living within the law, not making up our own rules that are more restrictive than the law. That makes no sense whatsoever. FearÉIREANN\^(caint) 14:33, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

Kirill Lokshen and rjensen are absolutely right. Furthermore, if there is really a great need for a Wikipedia compatible with the laws of every country in the world, then maybe an automatic script can be used to generate a Wikipedia Censored Version specifically for those applications. Just strip out every image with a Fair Use tag. While you're at it, you can strip out troubling usages of terms like "Tiananmen" and "Jesus", and so on... Doesn't it make more sense to start with a Wikipedia that can be dumbed down on command than one which would have to become the object of a brand new US-Wiki-Fairuse project to spruce it back up again? Also, if people lie about whether content is "fair use", they could lie about whether it was "public domain". The industry has gotten everything it's asked for, including a power to send 48-hour DMCA take-down notices whenever they want - so isn't that level of blind obedience from Wikipedia sufficient? Mike Serfas 05:18, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

(arriving late to the conversation) Unfortunately, while I enjoy the images on Wikipedia, I sometimes think they're more trouble than they are worth. Note, as just one example, the edit war over the lead image at Wonder Woman that occurred recently. A similar case of musical images occurred at Audrey Hepburn. Then you have people using Wiki-webspace as their own personal storage site for images. But on top of it all there is also the fact that there are so many restrictions on Fair Use that it is making it very difficult to find images of anything that fits the criteria. For example, I am presently involved in an edit war (not really - I won't go to 3RR with it) at an article about a minor model. The issue - the fact that the illustration for the article is an example of her work -- a magazine cover. To remove the magazine cover pretty much removes any need for there to be an image on the page. Yet the image tag for magazine covers has been revised at some point recently to say that magazine covers can only be used when discussing the magazine, not the subject matter of the cover (or its photographer, for that matter). And I've already informed the user wanting to delete the magazine cover that he'll need to delete a bunch more in [[Category:American models]]. (He subsequently replied that this is indeed his plan - to remove all magazine images from Wikipedia that aren't specifically used in articles about said magazines. This upset me enough that I was about to put forward a policy suggestion to remove images in toto from Wikipedia. It just slows down things anyway -- think of the bandwidth this place would save if we went to all-text. And everyone in the copyright police would be happy ... sorry for sounding sarcastic, but we editors put in a lot of time and effort to find images that make this place worth using as a resource, with no intention of making monetary gain of any of them, and all we get for our trouble is people saying "sorry, you can't use it." To heck with it. I'm tempted to take down every image I've uploaded to this place. 23skidoo 04:07, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

Template:Magazinecover has been in its current version since 02:30, 31 January 2006. There is no need to go all text under any conditions. We have many GFDL and PD images.Geni 04:42, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

arriving very late - I believe it is aquestion if it is for documentation purpose, or if it is really underminig a commercial service. Pictures of public available objects, in low resolution, are not very protectionworthy. Someone can take a picture of the eiffel tower easily. Nike sneakers (sorry) are in virtually 1000's of shops. Copyright restrictions are most likley there to sharply prohibit defacing usage (this is not scientific/documentary). This is my opinion of fair usage (not to take it literally). I am sourcing lots of things personally, i do not mind about things which are anyway provided for no charge, but might get unavailable at some point of time. However i know this is not allowed officially, even prohibited. I do include a visible tag of news agencies, in a way their representants would never do. In 70 years, these files become PD probably. Some things like egyptology are not meant to be a commercial stream, i believe sourcing from this is fair use in a meaning of sense. PD allows defacing etc., fair use does not. Check latest gas prices (political remark). See fansites/BBS (they source a lot of copyrighted data, this is tolerated, unwritten rules apply) - User:Akidd_dublin 8 may 2006

Guidelines for Wikipedia lists of ethnic groups

There is much inconsistency in policy about whom to include in ethnic groups. I propose a set of rules.

People should only be included if one of the following applies:

1. There is clear and explicit evidence that they, or both their parents ("born to Italian-American parents"), or their family ("from an Italian-American family") are of that ethnic group.

2. If they are described as say half-Italian, they should be listed with a note. If they are described as say Irish-German, they should be listed under both headings with a note. (this refers to ethnicity, not nationality, i.e. "Irish-German" meaning, say, a "List of German-Americans", not a "List of Germans")

3. There is clear and explicit evidence that one parent is of that group, and it should be noted in the list that it is only one parent.

4. If there is only some ethnic ancestry (i.e. less than a parent), proof has to be shown that the person identified with that group above others or singled it out, such as Robert DeNiro for Italian Americans. The proof should be explicit in that the person self-identified, and persons listed as such should be the exception, not the majority

5. As Sikhs and Jews are also religious groups, an exception is needed for converts to these religions, who would be explicitly noted.

6. Consideration is needed of the treatment of adopted people.

It is suggested that where possible the source to confirm the person's ethnicity should be cited in the format: "Name" - "Number citation" - "Quote, directly from the person or from the source" (citations from offline would be listed after the quote). See List of Catholic American entertainers for examples of this citation method. This would not work where the reference is to a list, such as a list of Italian American Oscar winners.

In the manner of inclusion, the rules apply equally to all lists of ethnic groups. We shouldn't apply different rules to one particular ethnic group (i.e. and as a result exclude someone from the list who fits the above criteria) and not treat it equally with other groups is discrimination.

This policy should also apply to ethnicity categories, which need to be consistent with the lists, and help to ensure that the maximum of categories a person could be listed in would normally be two.

Newport 10:29, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

Jack O'Lantern and Newport (aka RachelBrown and Poetlister) are trying to sneak something in here that they've been strongly opposed on on other pages. The V and NOR policies are being strictly applied at List of British Jews and should spread across the other lists. Jack and Newport opposed that and are therefore trying to make changes to other ethnicity lists, then insist they be applied across the board. Jews are a distinct group because they are a religion and an ethnicity, and so considerations about how to compile lists, and what criteria to use, may have to be different too. Jack and Newport have opposed what one of them called the "religious" view of what constitutes a Jew, and want to make Jewishness an ethnicity like any other. This led to the absurd situation of people being listed as Jews, even though they had only one Jewish great grandparent. V and NOR are non-negotiable. No consensus of editors is allowed to override them. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 21:34, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

I doubt you have any evidence that Jack'Olantern is RachelBrown, Jck is a teenager from Canada, while Rachel is certainly not. I don't think Newport is suggesting that Jewish lists should follow the same guidelines as others, people do not normally identify as a Jewish American just because their paternal grandmother was Jewish. Arniep 11:19, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

I didn't say Jack O'Lantern was RachelBrown. Please read what people write before commenting on it, Arnie. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 12:38, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

This is sensible for lists like "List of XYZ-Americans," where there is no question that the list is ethnically-based. However, nationality and ethnicity can interact in strange ways. When building the List of South Korean footballers, I didn't hesitate to add non-ethnic-Korean players from the K-league, although perhaps I should have been more hesitant. This seemed like a no-brainer because of course "South Korean" is not an ethnicity. But would we include non-ethnic-Japanese in a List of Japanese footballers?

I don't mean to drag this too far off-track. The proposal seems fine, as long as it is clear that some lists can combine ethnic and national/geographical criteria -- or are not "really" ethnicity-based. -- Visviva 11:56, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

I think the proposal above is roughly correct. For citation, I highly recommend the cite.php mechanism, especially because in many cases there will be many people cited to a single source. And I don't want to see the main body of a list littered with quotations. Put 'em in the notes. The main body should just be the names, superscripts linking to footnotes, and a qualifying statement, if needed (e.g. for Fiorello LaGuardia, in a list of Jewish people "father was Italian" and in a list of Italians "mother was Jewish").

I don't totally agree with "To apply different rules to one particular ethnic group and not treat it equally with other groups is discrimination":

1. Jewish ethnicity is specifically matrilineal. A person born of a Jewish mother is absolutely a Jew, regardless of who the father is. I think it is also appropriate to mention a Gentile father, but there is no need to be "Jewish-identified". Conversely, if only the father is Jewish, then the issue of Jewish identification arises. Similarly and conversely, Pashtun ethnicity is specifically patrilineal, so similar rules apply.
   • In response to this, most lists of Jewish people note if someone has a Jewish father and non-Jewish mother, and I feel it is ideal to include them if this is the case. Many half-Jewish people actively identify as Jewish, and the notion that your mother needs to be born Jewish to count is disputed by some reform groups. --MartinUK 17:48, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
     • Agreed. I was just pointing out that treating groups identically may not work. For example, if only one of your grandparents is Jewish, and it happens to be your maternal grandmother, then there should be no question that you are a Jew, whereas if only one of your grandparents is Pashtun (a specifically patrilineal ethnicity) and it happens to be your maternal grandmother, probably neither you nor anyone else considers you Pashtun. "Treating all ethnicities alike" has to find some compromise with the self-definition of that ethnicity. -- Jmabel | Talk 19:21, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
       • That rule is mostly there in the cases of exlcusion of people (i.e. preventing exclusion), not really inclusions. I.e. having an Italian-American father doesn't make someone more Italian than having a Jewish-American father make someone Jewish. Just to correct - the Jewish mother rule is a religious rule, it isn't an ethnic rule. There are really no criteria for the Jewish ethnicity (and there are really no established criteria for any other ethnicity, actually). JackO'Lantern 20:19, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
         • That's why, as you know, we stick to V and NOR and we've only been adding names of people identified as Jews by reputable publications. It's not for you to say that the Jewish people's self-identification isn't valid because it's (in your view) religious. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 02:40, 14 April 2006 (UTC)
           • You also can't say you're going to ignore what you call "religious" rules (when what you mean is Jewish law), but on the other hand, want to include converts. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 02:44, 14 April 2006 (UTC)
2. I think that there are some other cases where the line of ethnicity vs. nationality is blurry and notes are needed. For example, List of Romanians has a note near the top, "Most of the people listed here are of Romanian ethnicity, and whose native tongue is Romanian. There are also a few mentioned who were born in Romania and who can speak Romanian, though not being of Romanian ethnicity." I think that is also a perfectly good policy, as long as it is explicit in the article: I really don't welcome a hunt for whether a person who is culturally Romanian and from Romania might have a different ethnicity. I'd just want to see a note if their ancestry is known to be solidly something else.

When this discussion "plays out" and is to be archived, could someone please copy it to Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Ethnic Groups? Thanks. - Jmabel | Talk 15:03, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

I'm not sure about rules 2 and 3; there are some (many?) people that fits under the ethnic category of one but not both parents---an example is Anni Friesinger, who may be said to be Polish-German, i.e., in this case a German person of half-Polish descent, and as such also a German (she's a German speed skater), but not a Pole (her mother is Polish, but Anni F. herself was raised in Germany and has been a German citizen all her life). Thus, for this person and presumably others in the same situation, a listing such as the one I have described, with a note in the text about the ancestry, would be the most sensible IMO.

My point also applies to, say, those Norwegian-Americans (Americans of Norwegian descent) who are children, grandchildren, and so forth, of Norwegian immigrants to the U.S. While some or all of the first-generation immigrants might be listed in all three groups---Norwegians, Americans, and Norwegian-Americans---the 2.,3.,...-generation immigrants are not Norwegians as such, and should be listed under Americans and Norwegian-Americans. --Wernher 14:47, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

Actually the policy just means if someone is described as "French-Irish" by ancestry, henceforth will be listed under French Americans and Irish Americans. It wasn't really referring to nationality. Nationality is really a lot clearer - if you have or used to have a citizenship somewhere, you're in, if not, I guess not. Jack O'Lantern 17:42, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

I see the many of these lists as problematic. With the xxx-American lists and categories as it is not clear whether being an xxx American means that you identify with that ethnicity above other ethnic ancestry one may have, or whether lists or categories of xxx-Americans are the equal of lists or categories of Americans of xxx descent. Detailed ancestry can now often be found online for famous people or in biographies, so if it is detailed in those sources that a person had 8 great grandparents all born in a different country, would that mean we should list them on 8 different lists and categories of xxx Americans? Also, I think many people are added to these lists and categories because their surname is assumed to be of xxx origin, but as in the case of John Kerry this is not always a reliable indication of one's ancestry. There are also problems with other lists in determining nationality, i.e. some people who live(d) in Ireland may not identify or have identified as Irish, this equally applies to many other lists, i.e. many of the eastern europe lists in countries that used to be in the Russian or Austrian empire, it is unclear that someone who lied in a certain areas of those empires should now be described as of the nation that now occupies that area. Arniep 21:27, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

Did you read the policy? Obviously a person who has eight different ethnicites wouldn't be on any list, unless you can prove they identify with one of them. As would a person with a "last name" belonging to an ethnicity, because these lists according to the policy, should be based on good sources, not last names. Jack O'Lantern 21:21, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

It seems that people are often keener to identify with an ethnicity which is more fashionable to identify with, i.e. people are probably less keener to identify as French, German, Dutch or British than Irish, Italian or Jewish. Therefore if lists are based on self identification they will be subjectively skewed according to fashion rather than fact which would really put into question their validity. Arniep 21:34, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

Sheesh! What's next, creating lists of Mulattos, Quadroons and Octoroons? I think there's something obsessive about this trying to assign lables to people that don't really fit in your little categories. -- Donald Albury^(Talk) 02:24, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

It's extremely disturbing, it's always the same small group of editors/sockpuppets, and they're constantly violating V and NOR, arguing it shouldn't apply to them. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 02:41, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

I think this is a problem as I said before whether xxx-American is defined by self identification, or ancestry. If it is defined by self identification it would be skewed according to what is more fashionable to identify with. You have to ask what is really the point of classifying every person who has an article by ancestry or ethnicity which is certainly a legitimate discusssion to have (rather than having a few limited examples on the relevant page e.g. for Irish Americans with people who actually have Irish origin names and it is confirmed that their ancestors were Irish). Arniep 11:19, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

Well, the beauty of this is that we do it by both self-identification and by ancestry. Ancestry, by including people with one or two parents of that group, and identification, by including people with lesser ancestry - but only if one can explicitly prove that they identified with that group. I certainly think this is a reasonable guideline for the many lists we have right now, especially since most of them are go-for-all and have no guidelines. As for whether the lists should be there in the first place - that's a different question - but the point of this proposal is to govern the lists we have right now, since there are so many. To answer SlimVirgin's concerns - obviously people with a Jewish great-grandparent or grandparent would not be listed unless someone can provide proof that they considered themselves Jewish. And as I said, we're not ignoring Jewish religious law(s), we're combining people of the Jewish religion (i.e. converts) and the Jewish ethnicity (i.e. non-practicing Jews), and both (which is most), which is the only non-POV way to do this. As for "Original Research", as you can see, not a single person before you brought up that point, and in fact it is up for a lot of debate whether putting a person with an Italian mother on a List of Italian-Americans, for example, would be Original Research. In fact, please see the under-development proposed policy Wikipedia:Lists in Wikipedia page, which states that membership criteria should be included - and this is an attempt to figure out workable criteria so all the lists can finally be in synch. Mad Jack O'Lantern 17:52, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

I think the self identification idea is problematic; for example, how do we determine what is required for it to be determined that someone self identifies? Do they just have to have talked about their Irish ancestry in an interview or book, given their children Irish names or specifically said "I consider myself Irish American (which I should think is actually quite rare)? We had already discussed this before in relation to the xxx-American lists and decided the only way to accurately maintain the lists was to cite specific ancestral information from biographies or reliable genealogy sites. Now if we are to keep the lists why should we only include a person in a list for only one of the grandparents just because they mentioned that grandparent in an interview and not another? For example, Marlon Brando felt he had a strong Irish input in his makeup as his grandmother used to sing songs her Irish father had taught her. Yet she had an English mother and I bet some of the songs were English, but as it is not so fashionable to identify as English-American he latched onto the Irish connection. Brando also claimed his name was French probably because he felt a strong affinity for the language at the time as it was his new wife's language, yet in fact his name his name was German in origin not French. John Kerry for many years identified as an Irish American yet it is now known his grandfather was not Irish. I think that this shows how subjective and whimsical self identification can be and why it should not be considered as a reliable source and governing factor for inclusion for these lists (if they need exist at all). Arniep 23:13, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

I think you're making too big of a deal out of this "list if distant ancestry + self-identifies" clause. This should be the exception to the rule, and certainly not the majority of the listings. I have not been able to find anything about Marlon Brando identifying as either Irish or French. Claiming Irish or French ancestry is not the same as identifying with it. John Kerry never identified as an Irish American, just certain magazines thought he was Irish. You should source these claims if you're using them as part of the argument - and certainly they would have to be sourced if they're going on the list that way. Mentioning a grandparent in an interview is not the same as identifying. Maybe this will clarify it - list the person if they are less than 50% Irish only if they explicitly say, using the Irish example again, "I identify as Irish", "I'm Irish", "I'm an Irish-American", "My main influence in life is my Irish heritage", not something like "my grandmother spoke Irish" or "I have Irish ancestry". You'll find that for the most part, this will be the rarity in the listings. Mad Jack O'Lantern 23:27, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

The mere act of determining what a person has to say to qualify as xxx American is original research. This is why I argued that the lists should be renamed to Americans of xxx descent. Arniep 23:47, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

Well, actually, the examples I used (i.e. "I'm an Irish-American" "I identify as Irish") are directly linked to that person's own identification as an Irish-American. We have rules and policies all over Wikipedia that could be termed as original research if we go that way. As for renaming these lists "Americans of Irish descent", "Americans of Italian descent", "Americans of Jewish descent", I suppose that could be done, and solve all these problems as then guidelines wouldn't really be needed - beyond being able to source that person's ancestry. Mad Jack O'Lantern 23:51, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

I was just pointing out that you were mentioning specific things a person would have to say in your opinion to "qualify" as xxx American or to not qualify. That would definitely be original research. Basically it seems that we are just getting back to the discussions I had with Vulturell that the only way lists can be encyclopedic is with genealogical information from a biography or other notable source. There are still inherent problems even then in that a biography may be vague and just say his family had origins in xxx, but how far back were those origins? Should that sentence in a biography qualify that person to be in a list of xxx Americans, even if is not known when the first immigrant ancestor arrived or indeed if the information is accurate? Arniep 00:09, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

Well, we are supposed to use commonly used criteria for Wikipedia lists. I think the point of all of this is to determine what those criteria are. The example you just used, i.e. "had Irish origins", sounds like it wouldn't be enough to put a person on the list, because it's too vague. The criteria above is pretty specific. But again, if you wanted to change these lists to "Americans of xxx descent", maybe that would eliminate that problem. Maybe that is a good idea. Mad Jack O'Lantern 00:15, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

I agree that the lists are problematic BUT they do serve a research purpose in that they can be the starting point of detailed research and very useful - I do beleive that ethnic lists should rely on 2 criteria - 1 - Documented Ancestry and 2. Individual's opinion or how they see themselves. However, I'm not sure what is right - part of me thinks if it is good enough for a Government to recognise an individual through descent as the irish Government does back to if an individual can proove descent from an Irish Parent, grandparent or a great grandparent they are entitled to Irish Citizenship, so perhaps that should be the standard practice for this list and other similar ones that are based on ethnicity. It would be more accurate in that the descent issue is easier to substantiate through research than an individual's personal identification e.g. genealogy, family history and background is far more likely to be detailed in biographies where as an individual’s identification is harder to pin down as it can appear in a variety of sources usually not well publicised or promoted and be more localised that are far more difficult to find; such as newspaper articles, interviews, reviews etc. that are not on the net or readily available and lets face it nowadays most people use the net to source. I do believe also that some contribution to Irish American culture or American culture in general should be considered. Believe me I think what you are doing is a tremendous undertaking and you are very brave to do it simply because your hard work can be (ultimately) trashed by someone who has a different opinion or is less dedicated to verification and simply because of their own limited view decides that someone doesn't belong on the list. I hate to keep harping on the one family but Garland's family is a perfect example of my point. She certainly belongs in the main category of irish Americans under actors because during her heyday she contributed to Irish American Culture through Irish themed songs that were on every jukebox in every Irish Pub through the 1970s, she was a regular guest on fellow Irishman Bing Crosby's radio show during the 1950s singing many Irish songs with him and often referred to her self as Irish and also to her Irish maternal family, incidentally here is a good quote from the article that appeared in Irish America Magazine "She never lost her Celtic soul". However her daughters belong in the Distant section because that is appropriate for them in that they do have substatiated "Distant" Irish heritage and although may not promote it daily have referred to it on occasion and probably more than some entries on the main list. By example; how does one know Lorna Luft does not identity with being Irish? I live in Ireland and she has appeared in concert and on Television in Ireland many times over the years, she starred in the Dublin production of Follies, she lived here for a period and often visits, she has made reference to "the family's Irish charm", and other quotes about about her mother's Irish traits in her book Me and My Shadows, and in interviews in the USA, Ireland and the UK, she has appeared at Irish charity performances in New York with Irish entertainers and a famous photograph of her by Scuvello that appeared on the cover of Interview Magazine pictured her in a green sequined outfit holding a huge shamrock! She is first and foremost American but certainly has demonstrated an appreciation for her Irish heritage as well as that of her father who was of Russian/German Jewish decent but she is Episcopalian like her mother and sister but yet is listed in a wikipedia list as a "Jewish Female singer" should I delete her from that list? I don't think so the wider issue is that each list should require the editor to give a reason why the individual they are proposing should be on the list. Liza Minnelli is as much Irish as she is Italian in that she had only 1 Italian Grandparent and 1 Irish Grandparent and while she wasn't raised in either an "Italian or Irish " family environment she is aware of her heritage. She was quoted in an early London Times interview after Cabaret stating "I'm Italian, Irish and French" obviously choosing to omit Scottish as her "French" and Irish Grandmothers was also half Scottish. Since then she has appeared at many Italian and Irish American functions and commented on both nationalities but in reality prefers her French ancestry as that was the heritage that her father identified with. I have found that people generally identify more with their mother's nationality due to the family influence is usually stronger from teh mother's extended family. I think inclusion in the distant part of the list and perhaps some historic figures should solely be based on documental direct heritage. There is an article that appeared in the Irish Echo newspaper around 1991 where Liza attributes her determination and ability to laugh at herself to her Irish roots - but as I say these comments are very much "localised" and not widely available unless someone does extensive research. I have many articles, letters and other documents not available on the net that realate to many people's Irish connections and use them in my work but for the most part this material is hard to find unless the individuals have a lead or know where to look and it is rarely on the net. There is also the scientific reality that is Mitochondrial DNA that is passed from generation to generation unchanged from the female line - what this means is that an individual in America who had an Irish distant Great Grandmother would have the same mitochondrial DNA as that distant (female) relation, this has tremendous implications for health research and forensic identification. I am sorry to go on so much but as you can tell this is a subject that interests me very much. There is also something that we must take into consideration when talking about Irish American Culture that is fairly unique in how "loyal" individuals can be to it even if the connection goes back many generations and the current family name is not remotely Irish - this again is a fairly unique phenomenon more common among those with Irish roots. Research into this has stated that America, Canada and Australia all founded on waves of immigration offered a new life to these "tired and poor huddled masses yearning to be free" but in the case of the Irish leaving Ireland was not a choice but a necessity to survive and many regretted having to leave and many were angry over having to leave and I dare say many were glad to leave but ultimately this forced immigration did not sever the ties with home and generations of the same families continued to cross the ocean right up until recent times and this has kept the link open and to a degree fresh. Also the Famine Irish of the 1840s after only 2 generations in America became very influential and successful in the military, church, politics and show-business, combined with the world-wide popularity of St Patrick's Day celebrations particularly in America and the stereotypical images of the Irish that were for the most part flattering although some not so e.g. drinkers and fighters but overall this group of people managed to maintain a strong connection with their "motherland" whilst still remaining fiercely patriotic Americans. Ireland did not interfere with American identity that was to a degree formulated by Irish immigrants. Finally on entries like Arthur Shields, Barry Fitzgerald, Geraldine Fitzgerald and Maureen O'Sullivan it is highly likely that they became Naturalised American Citizens as did Maureen O'Hara for several reasons the least being that they made their living there, and that it was a very patriotic timein Hollywood and America and they were unable to go back to Ireland due to WWII - sorry to be so long winded and I am happy to asssit as I can.86.12.253.32

Don't censor, explain. I think some of you might be forgetting that over the years this encyclopedia is bound to expand, not contract. People want more information, not less. Why try to remove names from a list? What's the hidden agenda? Why try to hide that someone had a Rwandan great-great-great-grandmother? This project is not a border patrol saying can come in and who can't. Readers want to know everything! If you merely want clarification as to WHY someone is on the list, fine, but that will tend to happen with or without a rule. Don't censor, explain. --Armenian-Irish-German-Austrian-Swedish-French-English-USAmerican-Canadian Korky Day 23:28, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

Thanks, and I agree. I think the main problem that the people have is that "Irish Americans", "Jewish Americans" are labels that may not necessarily 100% fit the person unless they're 100% Jewish, Irish, etc. That's why I am starting to believe that it would be a good idea to just change the list names to "Americans of Irish descent", "Americans of Jewish descent", etc. and we can list anyone we want, as long as we can prove the Irish-Jewish-etc. connection. Mad Jack O'Lantern 23:44, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

The "Americans of <ethnic group> descent" vs "<Ethnic group>[-]Americans" issue may also be slightly difficult in those cases where the second format is by far the most commonly used one. For instance, employing the example nearest to myself: "Norwegian-Americans" is the phrase used by most people belonging to that group. However, there is also a case for using the 'descent-phrase' for those who are 'n-th generation' Norwegian-Americans (n > say, 3 or 4), and who might not identify particularly much, if at all, with their ethnic ancestry, even though that ancestry is a straightforward fact. For example, I doubt that Paris Hilton identifies herself as a Norwegian-American---even though her hotel chain-founder ancestor Conrad Hilton did, being the son of a Norwegian immigrant to the U.S. So, alas, my conclusion is somewhat of a non-conclusion: either one of the two formats would be kind of 'wrong' for a great many members of the group. That being the case, I say we could just as well go for the status quo. --Wernher 17:00, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

But then an even better question arises... what is the present status quo? I think the main problem and the reason this - or any other proposal - was brought up is because it's not really clear how the lists are currently organized, and there's no real consistancy. Mad Jack O'Lantern 17:27, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

Americans of xxx descent is a statement of fact whether it is somebody's father or great grandfather. If a person has made particular statements in which they identify with that ethnicity or exhibit some interest in it, that could be noted next to their entry. Arniep 21:00, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

I've moved List of Irish-Americans to List of Americans of Irish descent. It seems to have worked out fine there. Most of that list is cited, so you can see the kind of citations we should usually have (and some of the people are described as "Irish-Americans", some aren't, so that distinction is noted). I think sooner than later all of the American lists would be moved to similar titles, solving this problem entirely. Mad Jack O'Lantern 20:55, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

I think that brings up an interesting question, in that you said they have been described as an xxx American, not they described themselves as an xxx American (which they may well never have done). Arniep 21:00, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

Right, but we're quoting direct and reliable sources, so if they decided to describe that person as Irish-American and we quoted them, it's their responsibility. Mad Jack O'Lantern 21:04, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

We don't need, nor can we have, special rules for lists of any ethnicity. All we need it Wikipedia policy. WP:NOR, WP:V, WP:CITE, WP:RS. All Wikipedia articles must follow Wikipedia policy, we can't have special rules for these ones. Jayjg ^(talk) 05:50, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

There seems to be a curious misunderstanding by some editors of the point of this proposal. No change is suggested to any WP policy (although of course, since we proceed by consensus, any policy could be overturned if the community so wished). However, the policies are not enough. We need some supplementary guidelines and definitions. Consider Irish Americans. It violates no WP policy whether we have a list entitled

• Americans born in Ireland,
• Americans of pure Irish ancestry or
• Americans of partial Irish ancestry

In the third case, we could put in the introduction whether it is restricted to people with one Irish parent, grandparent or great-grandparent. We could include every eligible person without comment, or add a note explaining the extent of their Irish ancestry. We could include everyone whose brother or sister (i.e. both parents the same) is on the list, even if there is no explicit source that they are of Irish-American ethnicity, because it is illogical to split siblings in that way. As long as we say what we are doing, this violates no policy. As SlimVirgin has said, "I agree that there should be consistent criteria for inclusion across all these lists"; we just need to decide what the criteria are. In the case of Jews, we can say that we will include someone without comment if we have a reference that his or her mother, or mother's mother, or mother's mother's mother, was Jewish, since such a person is Jewish in orthodox Jewish law, or we can say that a comment must be added. If anyone can think of a loose end not covered above, please say so. - Newport 11:52, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

The loose end is that what you're proposing is a violation of WP:V, WP:NOR, and WP:NPOV. While it would be my preference to adopt as a definition of "Jew" that a person's mother was Jewish, certain denominations would not agree with that. Any definition that we came up with would either violate NOR or NPOV. It was proposed elsewhere that we adopt a mixture of the definitions of all the denominations (though the Orthodox could claim that was not NPOV), but that was rejected by Vulturell, who said it favored a religious over an ethnic POV. Therefore, to adhere to NPOV, NOR, and V, if we're going to call someone a Jew, we must produce a reliable source that calls them that: not their father or their grandfather, but the person themselves. We then trust that the publication has done its research properly, which is why it's important to use good sources and not dodgy websites, as has happened. That's what we do with all other article edits: cite good sources and trust that they've done their research, and ethnicity lists can't operate under different rules. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 12:37, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

Also, Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons stresses that we have to be sure to source edits particularly carefully in the case of living persons, which many on these lists are. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 12:40, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

But the thing is, we're not calling a person a Jew, or an Irish-American, or an Armenian or a whatever. We're providing explicit information and then what they consider that person to be is up to the readers themselves. Using an example that fits both Irish and Jewish (this entry from the Irish list):

• Tanya Roberts [2] "modest beginnings in the Bronx, the daughter of a pen salesman (Irish) and a Jewish mother (who were divorced before she reached high school)."

This can't possibly be a violation of original research - in fact it veers into the other end, because this is a direct copy-and-pasting of information from a source. If you read that and think Roberts is Jewish, great. If you read it and think she's Irish, great again. If you read it and think she's neither, ditto. The point is we provide the full information, and in the cases of all the ethnicity lists, it would be explicitly cited information. We're not adapting any definition, but rather listing people - with these explicit quotes - who could be considered Irish, Jewish, etc. under reasonable grounds. We're not saying Tanya Roberts is Jewish (although there may well be a source out there that says so, too), all we're saying is she's Irish on her father's side and Jewish on her mother's, see this explicit quote, and make of it what you will based on your own beliefs. That's all. Mad Jack O'Lantern 17:57, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

That's fine for articles, but with lists you're labeling the names you include, so you have to make sure that reputable sources have applied that label explicitly before Wikipedia can do it. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 18:22, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

What you're proposing would be like having "List of psychiatric patients," then adding Jack O'Lantern, with the explanation: "Jack's mother was a psychiatric patient in May 1962." Well, what does that have to do with Jack's name being on the list? SlimVirgin ^(talk) 18:26, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

Very simple. No one at all would consider me a psychiatrist patient because my mother was one. The two are in no way connected. But, say, a large majority of people would consider Tanya Roberts Jewish because her mother was, and another large majority would consider her at least notably Irish because her father was. Why are we removing information that those people would find useful? Mad Jack O'Lantern 18:30, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

But this is where you have a blindspot. There are people, including Jews, who would not consider a person Jewish just because their mother was, and many more who would not consider them Jewish just because their father was. And almost no one would consider them such just because a paternal grandparent was, and we even reached the stage with some of these lists where people were listed with just one great grandparent. Because of the diversity of opinion, there is no clear definition and therefore to plump for one would be POV and to invent our own would be OR. Therefore, we stick with WP:V, and we call people Jews if and only if reputable sources have done so. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 18:35, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

Yes but the definitions in this case are even clearer than those for other ethnicities, who have no clear definitions at all. Again, I'm not calling (this example again) Tanya Roberts "Jewish", I'm saying she has an Irish-American father and a Jewish-American mother. If it's the title of the page you're concerned about, why not change it? I can see articles being called "List of Greek-Americans and Americans of Greek descent" or "List of Jewish Americans and Americans of Jewish descent". The cited quote by each person would obviously let the reader know if that person is a "Greek-American" or "an American of Greek descent". These titles would more accurately reflect the contents of all these lists, many of people listed under Greeks, for instance, have significant Greek ancestry but have not been described as "Greek" or "Greek-American". Mad Jack O'Lantern 18:41, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

Please stop trying to conflate all these issues. My comments are only about the Jewish lists because "Jewishness" is an ethnicity/culture/membership of a nation, and a religion, and so the criteria differ from other lists. I have no comment to make about the other lists, as you've been told many times. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 00:57, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

Hey, that's not true. It works the same way for the other lists. If someone's mother is Greek, but that person is not described anywhere as "Greek" or "Greek American", then the exact same logic - i.e. a violation of original research applies - if they are put on a Greek list. Mad Jack O'Lantern 01:00, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

You say it works that way for the other lists. I have no idea and no opinion, because I've never edited them. All I'm saying is that "Jewishness" is more complicated. Those are the only lists I am commenting on. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 01:06, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

Great, but what's to see about the other lists? They're all organized the same way. People who have (using this example) Greek parents, parent, grandparent, etc. are listed. Some have been described as Greek or Greek-American in good sources, and some haven't. If you say it's a violation on the Jewish lists, then it is the exact same violations on the other lists. Mad Jack O'Lantern 01:09, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

The only criterion that is compatible with Wikipedia's policies for lists of foos is that the person in question has been described as a "foo" in a reputable source. Deciding that having X ancestry or Y upbringing or Z parents makes you a foo is original research. Wikipedia restates what reputable sources have already stated. It does not make judgements. I consider the following policies absolutely nonnegotiable: WP:V, WP:NOR and WP:NPOV. I suggest to Newport and Jack O'Lantern that they read them and make a genuine attempt to understand them.

As far as having "Lists of people with foo descent", this is fine, but must be restricted to those people who are described as having foo descent in the sources. You may not interpret other wordings as meaning that they have foo descent, any more than you can interpret them as meaning they are foos.

People ask, does this mean we should include people who are in our view wrongly described as a foo on lists of foos. The answer is yes, if there is no other, preferably better source that says otherwise. If you do not understand that, go and read WP:V once more. The key sentence is in bold. The criterion for entry in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth. We do not decide what is true. We state what others can go see for themselves.

I should point out to Jack O'Lantern that "one drop" tests are absolutely unacceptable for an encyclopaedia of this nature. It doesn't matter whether you think this, that or other thing makes someone a foo. Unless you have a reputable source that states it, you may not include the person in a list of foos. This is exactly the same standard for all edits on Wikipedia. Write it on a piece of paper, Jack. Stick it on the wall above your PC. Wikipedia does not make judgements. To do so is original research, which is rightly forbidden here. Grace Note 23:19, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

Wait wait wait, let me get this. You're saying that a person who is described as being of "Irish ancestry" couldn't be on a list of people "of Irish descent"? If you think that's true, you had better go ahead on copying whole articles on people and pasting them here, otherwise it would be the exact same violation of original research as assuming "ancestry" means "descent" would be. Use of the thesaurus, alas, is not forbidden to us, and I will never, ever, accept that it is. Mad Jack O'Lantern 05:09, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

I must say I firmly agree with Jack O on this one. Grace Note's statements

1. Deciding that having X ancestry or Y upbringing or Z parents makes you a foo is original research[.]
2. As far as having "Lists of people with foo descent", this is fine, but must be restricted to those people who are described as having foo descent in the sources. You may not interpret other wordings as meaning that they have foo descent, any more than you can interpret them as meaning they are foos.

strikes me as implying that an American who is listed with, say, Norwegian parents, is not to be categorized as a Norwegian-American unless there is another source using the exact wording "Norwegian-American" about that person. Does WP policy actually forbid such very trivial deductive reasoning on the pretense that it is to be considered "original research"? I can't say that I reach such a conclusion from looking at WP:NOR's section "What is excluded?". I hope I have misunderstood this part of the discussion, since I can't honestly see what to discuss here. --Wernher 04:00, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

I'm inclined to agrree with Wernher here. There doesn't seem to be a OR issue here. JoshuaZ 04:01, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

Maybe this should have its own header/section but on a related matter to the ethnic lists, is their a standard biographical format for AMERICAN born, I won't even get into foreign born, folks, as far as "Jewishness". I see that 90% of the bios read,"joe blow, is an American tight rope walker. He was born to a Jewish family or is of Jewish decent or his father was a Polish Jew, ect ect." It seems that the term Jewish-American isn't appropriate. Thanks!Backroomlaptop 06:26, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

A "Jewish mathematicians" category was created very recently, and a link thereto was added to the bottom of the pages of quite a few mathematicians. We might be best off not having such a list altogether - and certainly no bottom-of-the-page category. Some reasons are given in

Of course, there would also be the advantage of avoiding yet another war on inclusion criteria, for what that is worth. What do you think? Hasdrubal 19:45, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

Just a comment: categorizing people by ethnic groups is in itself controversial, and does not (and won't) have unanimous support. "Wikipedia is not a democracy" is written somewhere in the policies, to let know that decisions here should be taken not by majority, but by consensus - that's real democracy, but anyway. I just want to point out the debate that has taken place in January 2006 in the talk page of the French people article. Although the vast majority of French people and French Wikipedians who edited the article rightly insist that French people is not an ethnic group, because of a variety of historical and cultural reasons (without entering the debate, I'll just refer to Ernest Renan's classical conception of a nation, opposed to the German understanding of the Volk - which definitely is an ethnic group). However, (mostly) Canadians and US people have repeatedly insist on qualifying it as an ethnic group (due to their partial and uncomplete understanding of French culture and, more importantly, to North-American political stakes - they thus transfer a North-American debate about ethnicity to define the French people as an ethnic group, against the will and history of the French people! -- ignoring the first rule of ethnicity, that the people concerned must first define them as such!). This has led to wrongly include the French people on the list of ethnic groups. Any historian of nationalities and nationalism will agree that the two rival conceptions about the nation concerned this German/French opposition, and thus the French case is surely not alone. Controversies have therefore a long time before them. Lapaz 22:20, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

Proposal for avoiding WP:BITE on new articles

Some of the discussions regarding Monicasdude's arbitration case have prompted me to think about how Wikipedia handles new articles, particularly those created by those new to the system. While I do not think that a newbie's first article is in any way holy, I believe that newbies' articles require consideration other than what is given with the AfD, prod, and especially Speedy processes. I know, from personal experience, that a newbie who desires to write a completely new article is usually unaware of Wikipedia formatting standards, citing standards, and the practice of claiming notability within the article. Thus, I suggest that new users' articles be (if the newbie such wishes) put into a special cleanup area where, if notability is confirmed through Google hits or other means, more experienced editors can format the article to meet Wikipedia standards. On a new user's first few new articles, possibly the first five?, a prompt would appear, explaining that while Wikipedia values new users' new articles, many such articles are not formatted according to Wikipedia standards. This prompt would also encourage the new user to place a template such as {{newbie}} at the top of the page, which would then put the article on a list of articles for more experienced editors to examine. At this point, non-notable articles or other articles not included in Wikipedia would be deleted, while notable articles with poor formatting would be improved.

I believe that this proposal would help to prevent unintentional newbie biting, by allowing newbies' articles to be deleted more kindly than through a Speedy process, and by allowing newbies' legitimate articles to be improved. I realize that this proposal would take a considerable amount of work to code, and a considerable amount of work to sort through the newbies' articles. While I do not currently know enough about Wikipedia coding to assist in any way with that, I hereby volunteer myself to regularly work on the "newbie article" section, both improving and deleting articles. I believe that an expenditure of my time is a good trade for preventing newbie-biting through this system, and I am not proposing this for "someone else" to do—I will help in any way I can, should this proposal be accepted. Thank you for your time in considering this proposal, and thank you in advance for any comments. Abhorsen327 14:21, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

Speaking as a newbie myself (my only wholly new article, Fast battleship, has so far only received one tiny edit and no comment at all), I fully support the suggestion of a new editor support/cleanup service; I would strongly oppose any idea that new editors who do not solicit assistance should be exempted from the normal procedures of AfD, prod, and especially Speedy processes (in fairness, I am not sure that this is what Abhorsen327 has in mind). When I created my first new page, I was shown a conspicuous message saying "If you're a newcomer, please first read the introduction, tutorial, and your first article to ensure the quality of your new article". Although I do not possess a degree in Rocket Science, I was able to appreciate the force of this advice and took it. If a would-be editor is too arrogant, lazy and/or stupid to do likewise, I would suggest that speedy deletion of their work is all that they deserve, and the more discouraged it makes them, the better. On the other hand, I agree that newbies who ask for help in good faith should receive it as fully as the resources in Wikepedia allow.

Can I add my thanks to those who have already commented on this very interesting idea? Comments on what I have said are welcome; I have added this page to my watchlist.

PS - I would be delighted if Abhorsen327, or any other newbiephile with time to spare, were to take a look at the Fast battleship stub, or my work on HMS Hood (51), which has taken up most of my editing time, and add a constructive comment or two to my talk page (currenly blank).

PPS - While adding this post, I've just discovered that links to article names appear to be case-sensitive. Is this really a good idea??

John Moore 309 16:13, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

Sounds eminently sensible. I suspect that many new editors get put off by hostile reactions to their first attempts. I'm sure that if my first article had been speedily deleted, I'd have thought twice about writing another. - Runcorn 15:05, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

I think this is a great idea. In support of the claims made justifying the idea, I offer Annie's Road as an article a newbie put up that benefited from someone else editing it a bit. The next article the newbie put up got speedied before I got a chance to rescue it (although I have the text in my user area, I haven't got to it yet.. too much yammering and not enough article writing I guess? (note to self {{sofixit}}!)) ++Lar: t/c 15:24, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

Sounds like a good idea, just as long as it only applies to pages which have been created or greatly changed (x characters?) by a newbie: if we have {{newbie}} templates popping up all over it;ll be more work than it's worth. Nihiltres 00:51, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

Something to be said for it. WOuld it have altered the discussion on anti-vaccinationist I wonder. Midgley 18:11, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

• I think this is a terrible idea. Articles are not owned, and this would easily create the wrong impression. The encyclopedia is the primary product, not the community. We should be civil to newbies and patiently explain the way things work to them, and that should be sufficient. --Improv 23:52, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

I agree with Improv. Such a policy would give the misleading impression that the article in question somehow belongs to its creator. Moreover, anyone could then get special treatment for their articles just by creating a new account and thereby becoming a "newbie." Sure, Wikipedia can seem a little harsh to new users, but I like to think of it as a kind of hazing process that weeds out people who by disposition (stubborn, egotistical, exploitative, dogmatic, unwilling to learn, unwilling to compromise, etc.) aren't suited to be encyclopedia editors anyway. Of course, more experienced users should bend over backwards to be nice to newbies. This should not be built into Wikipedia's technical infrastructure, however. dbtfz^talk 23:21, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

Indeed, no one owns an article. However, the newbie in question certainly created the article, and the template would point that out. What a {{newbie}} template could do is point out that it is one of the person's first articles, and so help, development, and messages that explain how Wikipedia works is in order. In the case that an article truly doesn't belong, the article could still go through the speedy process. However, the newbie template would still apply, and so the person who nominated it for speedy would explain to the newbie how the article quite isn't what Wikipedia is looking for. Once the newbie understands why the article was deleted, then they can go on to become better contributors. If they're being unconstructive along the way (i.e. arrogant, disagreeable, etc.), well then that's a whole other subject. —THIS IS MESSEDOCKER (TALK) 11:59, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

I agree wholeheartedly. I may be a deletionist, but I have come across quite a few articles that didn't necessarily deserve a speedy deletion, or even a full-fledged AfD. It was just that the articles were badly sourced, badly written, and therefore percieved as not worthy to remain on Wikipedia. If some way could be written so users with <X number of edits automatically get the {{newbie}} template tacked on, it would probably help quite a bit. --^demon 14:44, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

• I think this is a good idea, especially if the proposed {{newbie}}-tag is written in such a way as to highlight important wikipedia principles such as no-original research and (as Improv and others point out) that articles are not owned. Bucketsofg✐ 13:04, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

What I support is a system that helps newbies create good articles, rather than giving them a blank box and saying "good luck!" No wonder 50% of new articles are deleted. The page creation process should have more prominent warnings against vanity and copyvios. More importantly, there needs to be a system to WARN (or even stop creation) when creating articles with no formatting, no incoming links, or no categories. These three things are essential to a good article that will improve over time, pages that have incoming links and categories attract eyeballs and improvements, orphan uncategorized pages attract... not much but Seigenthaler kind of crap. Anyway, people creating articles are much better suited to categorize and create links to articles than some maintenence guy (namely me). I add {{catneeded}} to new articles all the time, and the creators almost always will provide excellent categories once prodded... but the tags are only added quickly enough a small fraction of the time. If the system forced it, suddenly we'd see a much better organized encyclopedia.

Any solution that forces maintenence on the 5-10 people willing to do it en masse is going to fail... so many articles are created every hour and few people are interested in dealing with them, or ever will be... look at our maintenence backlogs across the board. Help creators create articles that won't need massive cleanup, that's what I say. It's amazing and frustrating to me that we still have such a primitive system. --W.marsh 13:47, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

Licensing question

Lets say I am an author of an article, and I have submitted it to Wikipedia, thus agreeing to license it under the GFDL. Other people who use material need to credit Wikipedia, post the GFDL policy or link to it, etc.

But if I want to use my own article elsewhere, after I licensed it here, do I (as the author) need to also post all these notices? In other words, do I forfiet any usage rights of my work by submitting it to Wikipedia?

you still own the copytight on your work so you can do what you like with it.Geni 01:28, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

The only issue is if you're selling rights to distribute the content rather than simply distributing it yourself, the contract may contain clauses which would be violated by a GFDL work, and once you've licensed something under the GFDL you can't take it back. So if a contract is involved, I would suggest you carefully check for any clauses demanding sole distribution rights or naything like that.-Polotet 00:57, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

By licensing your contributions under the GFDL, you give up some of your exclusive rights—that is, you lose the right to prohibit certain uses of your work. What exclusive rights remain are still yours, and you can license them however you want (and entirely ignore them for personal use). —Simetrical (talk • contribs) 01:03, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

While, IANAL, IMO, this is mostly, but not entirely, correct. You still can prohibit certain uses of copies of your work not derived from the GFDL-licensed copy; i.e. if you hand someone a copy of some text(or an image) you put on Wikipedia, and tell them they need to pay you if they want to make further copies of it, this is still totally legal and fine. As it happens, if they wanted to, they could find the image(or text) on Wikipedia, and thereby avoid having to pay you to make copies of it; but if they only used the copy you handed them, they would still be bound to the normal "All Rights Reserved" rules. What the GFDL says is that you permit anyone to do nearly anything with the copy of your work on Wikipedia and (here's the copyleft, share-alike part), you agree to permit anyone to do nearly anything with any copies(even modified copies) made of the copy(or later derivied copies) of your work on Wikipedia. It says nothing about any copies of your work that are not based on the copy on Wikipedia. JesseW, the juggling janitor 02:08, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

Which is to say, your own copy you had before submitting it to Wikipedia is still your work and copyrighted to you. This is relevant if you make changes based on your own (not Wikipedia's) copy and publish that changed material—there would be no GFDL license "sticking" to that. — Saxifrage ✎ 02:50, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

JesseW: once you license an image under the GFDL, any copy of it is licensed under the GFDL as well, because copyright (and licensing thereof) attaches to the work, not any particular copy of the work. If you make an image, upload one copy to Wikipedia, and ask someone else for payment for an identical file, they don't have to go to Wikipedia to get an identical image to be able to use it under the GFDL.

Also, if you release an image under the GFDL, you may modify the image and not release your changes under the GFDL. Then the unmodified image would be free, the modified one would be unfree. Again, you forfeit your right to prevent people from using your work in accordance with the GFDL, but not your right to use your own work other than in accordance with the GFDL or to allow others to use your work other than in accordance with the GFDL. —Simetrical (talk • contribs) 22:16, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

Proposed addition to WP:NOT

WP:NOT EVIL
Herostratus 18:42, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

Do we need this? Surely WP:AGF people will not be evil? - Runcorn 18:58, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

It isn't clear to me what the proposal means by evil. Is this not evil in the sense of google Don't be evil or what? If it means it in that sense, then you should be talking to Jimbo and the Board. JoshuaZ 22:16, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

I don't understand the point of this proposed addition. Is anyone likely to make the mistake of thinking that Wikipedia is evil, or is intended to be used for evil purposes? Exactly what sort of behavior is this supposed to rule out that is not already ruled out by the existing policy? dbtfz^talk 22:58, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

I think Daniel Brandt might believe Wikipedia is evil. And quite possibly EB as well.  ;) But in any case, this policy (in my view) conflicts with our goals of neutrality and comprehensiveness; we absolutely should not do or fail to do anything just because most of us agree it's "wrong". See also: systemic bias.

(Anyway, this is a total rip-off of Google.) —Simetrical (talk • contribs) 01:23, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

The word "evil" has acquired a unique complexity due to the multiple contexts and ways in which it is used. I don't see how it would negate any evil at Wikipedia anyway. --Knucmo2 23:47, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

WP:NOT GOOGLE. ;-) — Saxifrage ✎ 02:59, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

• I disagree with this proposal. It will achieve little positive and merely hand a weapon to pov-warriors who have a moral crusade against [insert moral outrage here]. I suspect that such a principle would in any case eventually undermine NPOV and AGF. (Besides, it would mean that my favorite userbox might be deleted!)

Template:User Evil

Bucketsofg✐ 13:12, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

Help with a potential copyright issue

I'd like some input regarding what I think is a potential copyright violation. Please view the following two images:

1. Image:Vatican coa.png
2. Image:Coat of Arms of Vatican City.svg

The first image is tagged with {{logo}}. The second is tagged with {{PD-self}}. The first image is an exacty replica of the image found on the Vatican's website at [3]. The second is a very close match to image #1, but it is not an exact copy. There are some differences. Is the image #2 actually still covered by copyrights of image #1 since they are so remarkably similar? I'm thinking that in a court of law, the courts would probably rule in favor of a company/organization that went after someone for having a very similar logo to the one the company/organization has. I'm also concerned because even though the 2nd image is crafted, it is so similar that I think it would count as a derivative work. Should image #2 be re-tagged as a logo? Thoughts? --Durin 19:25, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

In general, yes that is a derivative work and hence it's copyright status is dependent upon the copyright in the original. However, in the case of the Vatican's ensignia, I would be surprised if the design had not long ago passed into the public domain by virtue of age. Dragons flight 23:04, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

• Perhaps, but I don't know. Copyright can be renewed. I don't know what the status is in this case though. --Durin 13:43, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

  Copyright cannot be renewed past a certain point. All works first published before 1923 1909 [the 1923 date applies to works published in the USA only, sorry —Simetrical (talk • contribs) 22:26, 7 May 2006 (UTC)] are public-domain. However, a specific derivative of the (doubtless PD) Vatican logo that was first published after 1989—as Image:Vatican coa.png appears to be—is eligible for copyright (with a few pretty narrow exceptions), and therefore may require some kind of fair-use justification if it's not released under a free license. —Simetrical (talk • contribs) 03:51, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

  That rule for ineligibility for renewal is from US copyright law. What does Italian and international law have to say about it? — Saxifrage ✎ 03:02, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

  I don't know about Italian law, but it doesn't generally matter for US copyright. (If you would like to use the images on another Wikipedia, on the other hand, it would be a good idea to ask at their copyrights page, not ours.) Any work published before 1909 is public-domain, no matter what others' laws say about it. And by the way, there is no "international copyright law"—or rather, there is, but it doesn't prescribe any specific dates on expiry. —Simetrical (talk • contribs) 22:26, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

It is not a logo but the in the taxonomy of wiki image tags a "symbol" or "seal". The basic design is from 1825 when Pope Pius VII did a design based on the then new colors of white and gold (see Flags of the world). The tiara and crossed keys design is even older. Many images represent themselves as the Vatican coat of arms which don't look at all like this official one. As with many images of this type, identifying the copyright is an extraordinary problem. patsw 04:38, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

It is a trademark issue not a copyright. It is trouble to use someone else's trademark--much more trouble than copyright issues. Rjensen 04:43, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

On the contrary, it's far less of a trouble. Trademark law is inapplicable if we're clear that we aren't in any way associated with the trademark holder. You'll notice (if you live in the US, anyway, I don't know about elsewhere) that generic over-the-counter medications often say something like "Compare to the active ingredient of Tylenol®*" "*ShopRite is not affiliated with Johnson & Johnson™, the manufacturer of Tylenol®.". In our case, it would be absurd for anyone to confuse us with the Vatican, so trademark law is basically irrelevant to us. (You may notice that we have many policy pages about copyright, and none at all about trademark. That's true for a reason.) —Simetrical (talk • contribs) 22:26, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

Are academic disciplines less notable than Buffycruft? (AfD revisited)

Please take a look at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Refounding Public Administration.

A mass-nomination of persons and institutions in an academic field, Public administration, all deemed "non-notable" by the nominator who contributes no actual arguments or discussion. A bunch of "me too" delete voters, and an article author, Ryan Lanham, who is apparently a lecturer in the field[4] and willing to contribute his expertise to Wikipedia, but gets harassed rather than helped when he tries.

I just checked one of the articles: Dwight Waldo, called a "non-notable theorist" by the nominator. He gets:

• 16,500 Google hits
• 573 Google Books hits
• 906 Google Scholar hits
• 1096 hits in the academic journals included in JSTOR

There turns out to be two books in which Waldo's name figures in the *title*:

• Brian R. Fry: Mastering Public Administration: From Max Weber to Dwight Waldo (Chatham, N.J.: Chatham House, 1989)
• Brack Brown & Richard J. Stillman, II: A Search for Public Administration: The Ideas and Career of Dwight Waldo (College Station, Texas: Texas A&M University Press, 1986).

A couple of links:

• "A Tribute to Dwight Waldo" by Richard Stillman, National Academy of Public Administration
• "Former IGS Director, Dwight Waldo Passes Away"

As I noted in the discussion, this mass-nomination is insufficiently researched (and that is actually an understatement). Recognized academic fields, recognized academic journals and leading academics in those fields are notable, at the very least as notable as individual episodes or minor characters from Buffy the Vampire Slayer.

The fact that these articles appear as a walled garden is given by the nominator and one voter as a reason to delete them. I see this as an indication that the field is underrepresented (i.e. systemic bias) and that the author has not been given a chance to finish his work before a bunch of people threw themselves over his articles to get rid of them. I'm pretty sure we have lost another contributor because of this behaviour and that the area will continue to be underdeveloped. Tupsharru 12:17, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

While I don't know this field or these people, I completely agree with the spirit of these comments. There seems to be a disproportionately high standard set for academics to be included. (See Wikipedia:Notability (academics)). Bearing in mind that all high schools are routinely kept, all professional sportspeople are kept, plus the most trivial TV program characters/episodes, this seems unfair.

It probably does also discourage experts if their articles are deleted, just as much as anyone else. Furthermore, in specialised fields, there will not be that many people capable of writing good encyclopedia articles. If the price of having specialist contributions on esoteric subjects is that the contributors write articles on themselves and their colleagues, I say its worth paying.

I understand that WP shouldn't encourage an attitude of 'I'm an expert, this is my article', but I haven't actually seen this happening in academic articles. After all, experts don't have to shout 'I'm an expert', they are in a position to cite material in their own fields.

In short, I think the 'professor test' should be changed. I'd say 'member of proper uni, research institute, or similar, plus one or more published papers' is good enough. --Squiddy | (squirt ink?) 12:55, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

While it may not be terribly efficient, the current prevailing method of running questionably notable articles & bios through AfD seems to actually be a good thing, so that the subject is looked into, an attempt at establishing notability is made, and maybe the articles get a bit of needed attention/tagging/categorisation, too. If the result of an AfD is Keep, then that gets put on the record for future editors to see that a notability discussion has taken place. Warrens 13:11, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

I agree with all you've written, Warrens. I wasn't proposing to change the AfD process, I'd like the criterion by which academics and obscure academic subjects pass or fail the existing process to be changed. Sorry if I didn't make that clear, I succumbed to the temptation to have a bit of a rant. --Squiddy | (squirt ink?) 13:18, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

While I do not agree that we should include everyone who has published a paper or two, as that would include a large proportion of graduate students and even undergraduates (unless it was a truly exceptional paper, I suppose), established academics with full professorships at research universities are usually notable, and their biographical articles, whenever they are nominated individually on AfD for not "asserting notability", tend to be cleaned up and ultimately kept. That process is often beneficial for the overall quality of Wikipedia, although it would have been nicer and less of a waste of time and energy if the cleanup had happened without the AfD.

This particular case is more problematic. User:Redvers nominated all articles by a Wikipedia newbie (who happens to be a specialist in the particular field he writes about), makes blatantly untrue assertions of non-notability in the nomination without apparently having made any attempt to research the topics, and does not even attempt to communicate with the author. As the contributor of these articles, User:Ryan Lanham, was still around, some guidance would probably have led to the articles being cleanup up and referenced by their original author. However, when Ryan Lanham asked about the motivation for the nomination on Redvers' talkpage, Redvers just archived the question and the rest of his talkpage the same day without a reply. This is not how I expect a Wikipedia administrator to behave. Tupsharru 13:59, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

I'll just add that it seems to me that Redvers is for the most part doing a good job, both on AfD and outside. However, I stand by my conclusions in this particular case (an additional search I made for Charles Perrow confirms my view of the overzelous character of this nomination). I don't understand if he had a bad day when he nominated these articles, or what happened. Tupsharru 06:13, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

I agree with the criticism of the mass deletion nomination, and just voted to keep all of the articles. However, I think the rhetorical tactic of comparing the subject matter to pop culture minutiae is misleading. A subject's significance to society, in terms of utilitarian value, is only a factor of notability. A particular potential cure for cancer is probably not notable if only two people are working on it and writing about it. On the other side of the coin, we have Paris Hilton. Curse you, fame, and mass media proliferation, curse you both. Postdlf 14:12, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

As someone who regularly makes such comparisons for rhetorical purposes, I'll defend them. The point is not that major popular culture figures (Paris Hilton or whoever) should not be included in the Wikipedia project; the point is that extremely minor popular culture subjects are generally treated as notable, while major academic and economic subjects are too often treated as non-notable. Notability, for too many users, seems to operate on a sliding scale, and the more significant a class of subjects is in the real world, the higher the standard for notability is set. Thus, the (never-accepted) "average professor" test, although there never has been an "average actor," "average athlete," or even "average Pokemon character" test. The standard for economic/industrial figures is set absurdly high; being CFO of Merrill Lynch for nearly a decade is considered less notable than being on the taxi squad of the Baltimore Ravens for a season. And articles on such subjects (academic or industrial, in particular) are actively targeted for deletion by an aggressive clique of users who defend with the same intensity the often most obscure minutiae of popular culture. Monicasdude 18:51, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

The same can be said for politicians. A musical performer who can prove an audience of 5000 will be notabale, but the mayor of city of 30,000 will not. Dsmdgold 23:43, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

As Monicasdude says, the issue is not the presence of the fancruft pop culture minutiae, but the different standards applied to different areas. Wikipedia is not paper, it is already extremely inclusive in many areas such as pop culture, sports and anything that interests the large geek segment of the wikipedian population. We see more barely notable professional baseballers, footballers and music albums added here every day, and there is no chance this inclusivism will change without deleting about half the database. That just won't happen.

I am not really against this, as long as the articles are verifiable and well-written, and quite a few articles on video games and pokemon are in fact surprisingly well-written because of the dedication of their authors. I would not mind seeing a similarly inclusive coverage of pop culture (cheap novels, popular theatre etc) from a century or two ago.

The problem is that the same inclusive standards are not applied equally to other areas, and some article topics, like some academic or business stuff regularly get judged "non-notable" despite their obvious importance in society. Some academic areas with a popular or geek appeal like egyptology or astrophysics probably have an easier time, but I guess public administration is one of those things that just aren't sexy enough.

In other words, the argument that "if you really hate pop culture so much, try to get that deleted instead of lowering standards in other areas" just doesn't work, first of all because the purging of pop culture content is not going to happen, and secondly because the presence of the pop culture is not the problem. Widely diverging standards of inclusion are. Tupsharru 06:47, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

• • I don't want to trim the pop culture either but I think there is a streak of anti-intellectualism in the deletion process and Monicasdude's comment about having an "average professor" test but not an "average athlete" test goes to the heart of the matter. Perhaps this is another example of systemic bias: most people can name 10 football players but not 10 professors or 10 CEOs. Thatcher131 12:01, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

All this is an example of why I think notability is inherently systemic bias and should be completely discarded as a criterion for deletion. —Simetrical (talk • contribs) 22:30, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

Pile on here

Without wanting to get into this - because I don't care - here are my 2 cents for those who are questioning my motivation, good faith and research on this AfD. Don't, because no one has asked me what my motivation was, so nobody knows. People have just jumped into a classic Wikipedia pile-on, where the words of the "vote" above are the only words read by the next "voter", leading to a spiral of assumptions and a suspension of good faith.

If people must know, it was largely a technical nomination. Many of the articles had been tagged for speedy deletion. When I came to clearing out the speedy category, I removed the speedy tags as the articles did not qualify (hardly the actions of someone bent on "removing all academics from Wikipedia" is it?). I put the articles on to PROD instead - this being a logical next move as they only had implied notability and it needed someone to either assert notability or bin the article. When the PROD tags were removed, without comment and without other edits to the article, I sent the articles to AfD - again, a logical thing to do with articles that don't assert notability.

I also followed the links on the main article, and the articles leading off, trying to see if there was a discussion attached to any of them and whether any of them had an assertion of notability that would be useful "up the tree". Instead, I found a largely circular walled-garden of articles, none of which asserted notability. Since it would have been ludicrous to either

1. Nominate one article in isolation, or
2. Flood AfD with a two dozen nominations all on the same subject and all with the same problem,

it seemed to make more sense to do one big AfD and let the community calmly and rationally discuss the issues and decide how to go forward on them.

So, there you go, you now have my motivation. Perhaps people would now like to stop writing to me and emailing me accusing me of having a vendetta against a person/people/subject, making a bad faith nomination because I'm power-crazed or being a vandal who has slipped through the RfA process because I'm part of "the deletionist cabal".

Thanks. ➨ ❝REDVERS❞ 10:17, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

• Did you consider contacting the author of all the articles suggesting that they could use an assertion of notability? It seems that the "technical" here triumphed over the community aspects, in a way that one comment on a talk page might have prevented. I'm not pointing fingers--I'm guilty of the same thing. Just suggesting that a useful step might have been overlooked. (Sorry you had to endure this "pile-on", ouch.) · rodii · 12:21, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
• Also sorry I may have spoken hastily and added to your stress. I wasn't aware of the previous speedy/prod history, I came late and saw only your massnom. The end result here is goodness, the articles I think are clearly going to remain, with much improvement (AfD has the virtue of often spurring big improvements). Could it have went differently? Notes on talk pages and suchlike to spur improvement? Perhaps. But I suspect that maybe sometimes in other cases, people nom articles precisely to get the improvement result. Nothing focuses attention like an AfD nom. As long as this author isn't embittered and still contributes, it's all good. It's tough for new authors to grok how this all works, and writing more essays and guidelines won't help. ++Lar: t/c 14:09, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

Yes, I considered writing to the authors, but no, I didn't do it. For one thing, I was unaware that the articles were all from one author until he replied on the AfD in order to castigate me. As I say, I followed the internal links of the walled garden whilst researching what could be done with the original "speedied" articles.

For another, does notifying an author about a deletion ever get anyone anything other than abusive talk page messages [5] [6], user page vandalism [7] and that old standby, accusations of breaking WP:BITE [8] if a first communication with a user is anything other than a warm welcome?

This alone is enough to immunise against dropping people a line to let them know about a speedy delete, PROD or AfD. But when the person in question also already has warnings for putting up articles about non-notable people and cut-and-paste copyvios [9], I'm even less inclined to get involved. Not that that policy spared me from a splash of racism this time [10] either! ➨ ≡ЯΞDVΞRS≡ 14:13, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

Your points are well taken, and you certainly did get piled on, didn't you! Again, I apologise for my part in it. That user in my view overreacted there and elsewhere. But we cannot read minds and cannot know if they felt justified by prior events or were just not a very friendly person. I know my first experiences here were not uniformly happy ones. There's a filter function that gets applied, not every new user sticks around. This user has a lot to contribute so I'm willing to overlook some rash behaviour, at first, and I hope others are too, within reason. Hopefully they'll grow into the wikiway. ++Lar: t/c 14:29, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

Replying to Redvers' question: "does notifying an author about a deletion ever get anyone anything other than abusive talk page messages, user page vandalism and that old standby, accusations of breaking WP:BITE if a first communication with a user is anything other than a warm welcome?"

My answer is an unequivocal yes. Sometimes form templates, like {{PRODWarning}} can be helpful, and make it seem more formal and thus less personal. A lot of people respond well if you just point them to the appropriate guideline and ask them to please add a reason that the article (or articles) satisfies it, if they object to the proposed deletion. That way, it's clearly not about them, or about you, just about this guideline that needs following. I don't think the possibility of getting a rude response is sufficient excuse to bypass communication. -GTBacchus^(talk) 22:05, 29 April 2006 (UTC)

Redvers, I am sorry to see that you are trying to depict yourself as the victim here, without seeing any culpability on your own part. Let's keep to the main point here: You nominated a number of articles, not just questioning their validity, but strongly and repeatedly asserting the lack of notability of subjects with which you were obviously not familiar, and, as far as I can understand, without doing any attempt to research them. Don't you see a problem with this? Can't you understand the hostile reaction of the author as a response to your arrogantly worded nomination? Tupsharru 15:44, 29 April 2006 (UTC)

Well, I'm a tad disappointed. I asked you (rhetorically) whether you agreed with the personal attacks that were made on me. I find that you do. I asked you (rhetorically) whether you thought racism was acceptable as a means of debate. I find that you do. That's disappointing.

It's also disappointing that you could read what I've posted above about the research I did and ignore it (assuming in good faith that you did read the above) and repeat the lie that I did no research - indeed, to strengthen it to saying I didn't do any research. As for "strongly and repeatedly asserting the lack of notability": two points - first, article on Wikipedia must assert the notability of their subjects for themselves. It is not up to the reader or a reviewing editor to establish notability on behalf of an article - to require that would impose an impossible burden on our editors and make the 'pedia a free-for-all for cruft of every description. Second, if I hadn't stated the reasons for including each article in my technical nomination (and note that I didn't include all of the contributor's contributions - just the ones in the walled garden for reasons given above which you will have read) the chances are I would now be typing a justification of why I didn't give reasons for each one.

We all know that AfD is broken (he says, heroically dragging this thread back on topic). None of us is doing anything about it because there doesn't appear to be anything better and because Wikipedia is neatly divided into two "camps" - inclusionists and deletionists - and never the twain shall meet. And you must be in one or another, with each "side" claiming you or declaiming you. I'm somehow managing to be in both at the moment - enjoying having to justify on talk pages both making nominations for articles (<gasp> he's a deletionist!) and for removing speedy delete tags on articles that don't deserve them (<gasp> he's an inclusionist!).

Through all of this, everybody has made an assumption as to what my motivations are - he's a deletionist - get rid of him! He's an inclusionist - get rid of him! Nobody has yet even asked me which one I am; and when I've said which one it is, nobody from either side even bothers to read it.

This is, of course, why AfD remains, and will remain, broken. The most rabid people are the noisiest and, because they represent the extremes of the debate, the vast majority who sit somewhere in the middle are kept silent and cowed. At this very moment there are people searching through PRODs in order to dePROD to make an inclusionist point. There are also people going through AfD in order to say "delete" without even reading the article in order to make a similar point.

The rest of us - and for once in my life I know I speak for the majority - are sat here with the view that some articles need to be kept, some articles need to be deleted and some articles fall into a grey area between to two where a debate would be useful and enlightening.

AfD is meant to be that debate, but actually it's a battleground much of the time and if you're in the middle, then you have to expect to get collateral damage - which, in this case, means ordinarily sensible editors agreeing with hateful personal attacks and judging the person, not the issue. ➨ ≡ЯΞDVΞRS≡ 20:24, 29 April 2006 (UTC)

You are throwing out some red herrings here, perhaps hoping I will go after them (accusing me of racism, for instance). Let me just ask you this: would it have hurt you to nominate the articles on AfD saying something like this: "These articles are not up to standards and have no references. I am not familiar with this academic field and have no idea if these people, journals etc are notable and worth keeping"?

That is the actual issue here, not racism, not that stupid inclusionist/deletionist divide, not even the purported brokenness of AfD; I don't even think it is necessarily broken as an institution. You are not the only one wording nominations in an unnecessarily arrogant way which is almost sure to put off the author. That is a problem with the culture on AfD, but not necessarily with AfD as such. The trolls, hoaxers and POV-pushers won't be scared away by having their products nominated on AfD. Newbie academics, trying to master wiki-formatting and the Wikipedia "house style", while at the same time writing about their field of specialty, seeing topics they know are important being labeled "non-notable" by Wikipedia admins is much more likely to have that effect. Some will react less calmly than others in this situation. Tupsharru 02:39, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

Proposal to repeal last point of No inflammatory usernames in WP:U

There is no clarity about "Random or apparently random sequences of letters and numbers, such as "ZJUn5XDLfqSve6yO", "R852783459b", or "asdfjjjjjjjk"." User:160490 is blocked, User:159753 is not, User:30021190 is blocked, User:16836054 is not. Thereofore this point should be repealed and blocked numerical usernames deblocked.

See Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard#Blocking numerical user names for initial discussion. -- Vít Zvánovec 09:18, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

Having read the AN conversation, I don't see any compelling reason for removing this clause. It's there for good reason, too—strings of random digits or letters are hard to remember, making establishing someone's identity difficult. Not only would it make contacting good-faith editors hard, but if editors were allowed to have such usernames the priviledge would quickly be abused by vandals and trolls to confound attempts at disciplinary action. — Saxifrage ✎ 11:52, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

No more than Vit Zvánovec is hard to remember. I can't even type the 'á' in his name without having to pull up character map or remember a ridiculously complicated ASCII code sequence... Ral315 (talk) 13:06, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

Should we consider a policy of standard English letters and numbers in names? This would also make imposter accounts more difficult to construct (although they seem to be caught pretty quickly now anyways). JoshuaZ 13:15, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

Letter 'á' is a part of Latin 1 code page. English normally use words like régime, émigré of café, why not Zvánovec?

I think most imporant reason is lack of any clarity. Every one should be pretty sure if his or her user name is valid. Sorry, but I still don't see any difference between 30021190 and is 16836054.

Trolls should be banned for other reasons than just numerical user name. And for example extra strange user name (non alphabeth characters) or extra long names are not blocked. -- Vít Zvánovec 13:48, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

I agree. Blocking someone for a name made up of random letters/numbers is a bit drastic, and just putting up with the (minor) inconvenience seems to me to be the lesser of two Weevils. --Squiddy | (squirt ink?) 19:54, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

They are the kinds of names that are routinely exploited by vandals and trolls, so it's not a "(minor) inconvenience". The problem is not typing it, it is the squishier issue of human cognition: we don't remember or recognise random numbers well at all. A name like Zvánovec (which I can type just fine) is recognisable and (with some effort for a native-English speaker) rememberable. If they were to adopt a subtly different username, it would be fairly noticable, and definitely moreso than the difference between, say, 790841592 and 790814592. — Saxifrage ✎ 23:26, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

I don't share this panic over trolls. If you wish to block somebody you still have to look at user's contributions. You can easily memorize that a troll is something like 790841592 and than check it in order not to confuse with 790814592. But what about cases when somebody uses quite different signature? In that case you cannot memorize anything. -- Vít Zvánovec 07:58, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

Many characters can be typed using the Insert: box just below the edit window, or using Alt together with the numbers at the right of the keyboard, so Alt-130 = é. I can't see any reason to ban short strings of numbers; they're very easy to type. - Runcorn 22:04, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

It's not the ability to type that's at issue, although I had no idea that Alt-130 = anything. It doesn't seem to work on my iMacG5 here, and how do you remember such things?

Anyway, I dispute the idea that régime, émigré of[sic] café are in the English language. There are transliterated words that have a superficial resemblance, but no English words have diacritical marks.

I'm not sure this is an issue, as our non-English friends seem to have diacritical marks in their names, and nobody is confused -- unless somebody else registers a transliterated version. Confusion is the reason for the policy. Just as registering a transliterated version should be blocked, registering an apparently random string should also be blocked!

--William Allen Simpson 04:20, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

Side comment: all three are listed in the OED; café (with the accent) is even considered "naturalized", and has been in use for over 200 years. After "café", the next few accented words are cafetière, caffè (and some of its compound words), caña, cañada, canapé, cañon, cap-à-pie, captionné...and we're not even through the ca-s! Ardric47 08:34, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

I feel the policy makes sense. User:159753 and User:16836054 should be asked to apply for a name-change at WP:CHU. Their names are difficult to recognize and could in fact be confusable with each other. —Simetrical (talk • contribs) 22:35, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

Video

What opinions are out there concerning the way Wikipedia does video? I would like to initiate a discussion on this subject, and supply my experience of an alternative.

The BBC recently ran a survey of online encyclopaedias (in their Focus magazine). Wikipedia came top overall (of course!), but it was slated for the lack of video and the obscure public domain software it uses.

IMO there are much better ways of doing it than ogg.

My view is that Java is the best alternative.

Java is estimated to be present on nine out of every ten internet connections.

This means nine out of every ten internet users could watch video distributed using Java.

I have used this system to good effect http://info.clesh.com/. Please look beyond the possibility that this is a blatant plug for a product as it is not.

The video plays in a window either embedded (behind a static image) or in a popup.

The major plus points with this system are two-fold.

All the content is hosted centrally and footage is delivered through a proprietary codec so it is easy to control, such as if Wikipedia needed to remove copyrighted material and to minimise the risk of people copying videos.

Secondly all the footage can be edited using a professional standard editing system that works in a browser window.

This latter point means, in theory, that any video could be edited (just like any text articles can be edited).

I have published some of my videos on Wikipedia:

• http://pro.forscene.net/mk1/published/menshigh-1140385843.can/
• http://forscene.net/sc1/published/ny1-1113694002.mon/index.html
• http://pro.forscene.net/mk4/published/philpub-1138497373.can/
• http://pro.forscene.net/mk1/published/plasmaed-1140297519.can/
• http://pro.forscene.net/mk4/published/final-1144968706.can/
• http://pro.forscene.net/mk4/published/stanpub-1138495561.can/

They have attracted over 1000 viewings over just a matter of weeks.

Does anyone know how much actual usage the Wikipedia video toolset gets relative to the number of pages viewed? Is it so low it is virtually worthless?

Video is a burgeoning resource on the web; Wikipedia could really excel here by using tools that give its video a level of reach that is on a par with text and images and unparalleled alongside other methods of distributing video by using a method that is far more reliable and easier for viewers to watch, and far easier for contributors to supply / edit video.

mk 21:20, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

For me, your videos cause an error and display as a grey box with a red X.

Proprietary codecs and "control" are the kids of thing we are trying to avoid here.

(I am writing in one line paragraphs like you. Isn't it irritating?)

When the intent is to freely and openly share content, as opposed to keeping it closed and inaccessible, isn't the ideal format an open, non-proprietary one?

I don't disagree with the contention that .ogg sucks, though.

It's just that everything else sucks worse.

· rodii · 01:13, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

Personally, I've always favored MPEG-1. Yes, it's significantly larger than most other movie formats, but it's got the advantage that everything under the sun can play it, and you don't have to worry about having the wrong codec. --Carnildo 06:09, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

Rodii I can tolerate one line paragraphs very well, if you want irritating you

should t

r

y

writing like

this no?! (I will forthwith make fuller use of parapgraphs)

We talk about ideal, like ideally people would donate organs for transplant by default. But an ideal is by definition unlikely to come about. Wikipedia is popular partly because so many people can access it. If there is no practical alternative for video on Wikipedia then video on Wikipedia is a non-starter IMO. Perhaps I have put the cart before the horse, and should have been asking first 'how much does Wikipedia really need video'. It's not the end of the world having little or no video clearly, as Wikipedia has prospered without it. But internet video could one day soon be on a par with text and images of today. Video may even define the next evolution of the internet. Thinking ahead somewhat, perhaps there will be great demand for calm oases free from a brave new world dominated by the noise and the bluster of an internet full to bursting with moving images.mk 21:19, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

On Clesh, I read: Java 1.1 is required to view this video. Please see these instructions for enabling Java on your web browser. The instructions are here: each OS has various browsers listed. Not only is my browser (Konqueror) not listed, my OS (GNU/Linux) isn't either. Oh all right, it's Alt-SC something or other. But Java is turned off out of security considerations. -- Hoary 07:25, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

I tested it on every web browser I've got access to, using http://pro.forscene.net/mk1/published/plasmaed-1140297519.can/:

• Mozilla 1.7.8 for Linux: Plays, no sound, no playback controls
• Firefox 1.0.7 for Linux: Plays, no sound, no playback controls
• Konquerer 3.4.0: Does not load properly, does not play.
• Opera 8.52 for Linux: Loads, gives a warning about not being able to play sound, shows playback controls, does not actually play.
• Lynx 2.8.5 : Gives an error message about requiring Java. Loading the instructions page gives an error message about bad HTML, and the page doesn't cover getting Java to work with Lynx.
• Links2 2.1pre20: Same as Lynx, but without the error about bad HTML.
• NCSA Mosaic: Crashes the browser.

--Carnildo 08:24, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

And if it crashes NCSA Mosaic, I'd guess that it wouldn't work so well on Cello either. -- Hoary 09:39, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

Carnildo and Hoary - in you both I think I have found two people in twenty that do not have Java installed and working (just kidding). Thankyou for the research. All I use is Firefox and IE. I can add that having visited many countries from China and Oz to Sri Lanka and the States over a number of years (entering some of the most grotty internet cafes), I have never had a problem watching Java video. But I can't say the same for video that requires installed media players. There is no universal method of reliably delivering video over the internet, only methods that have varying degrees of failure. But that does not detract IMO from the advantages of one method, Java, that can for practical purposes reliably reach a significant majority of users above and beyond all other methods presently available. mk 21:37, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

ogg is not public domain software. ogg is Free software. I see "using a proprietary codec" and "so it is easy to control" as both being fundamentally against the ethics of WP, as, blatantly, is "to minimise the risk of people copying videos." Midgley 19:00, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

Midgley when I said easy to control that is a positive not a negative facet. When a user uploads a video to WP it is not possible to change or edit that video. However if a video is uploaded to Clesh then that video can be edited, just like text can. This is in the spirit of WP not against it.

The Java videos I placed on WP didn't cost anything to anyone that viewed them, nor did it cost WP. In what sense then were these videos not free? If proprietory is "fundamentally against the ethics of WP" then widespread use of video within WP may remain indefinitely out of reach.

On the point of ethics, how are we to decide the point when use of a proprietory technology (lets use Java video as an example) becomes unethical on WP? Ideally I would like to have access to some form of method for inserting a picture that links to a popup of my videos, or to be able to host a Java applet inside a WP page. None of these options would involve WP 'adopting' Java video, just accomodating it through markup language. Would this be unethical?

Currently I have inserted videos as external links from WP, these then bring up popup windows that are viewed through the Java proprietory codec, is this unethical? Or is it just putting people seeking in touch with content they are looking to enhance their knowledge of a subject. I doubt they care much about codecs or how they are paid for.

Incidently how pure and ethical is WP? Are the WP servers all getting their electricity from renewable sources or do they rely on energy generated by burning fossil fuels and releasing carbon into my atmosphere, widely accepted to be responsible for rising sea levels and a plauge of all kind of ills upon mankind?

I don't run the servers. Any file uploaded to WP or WM commons can be downloaded, its licence permits it to be edited, and it can be replaced by a later version by anybody uploading that version. Clesh doesn't run on this browser on this machine. Google video does...

I gave a reference which adequately answers (last time I looked) the question about the difference between Free (libre) and free (gratuit). Further information can be had from http://www.fsf.org

The licence conditions and reasoning for WP are not hard to find - I'm going to leave others to answer anything here that doesn't indicate an actual understanding, and acceptance of, those. In some cirucmstances I might debate it, but I'm busy with, and quite tired of, a text-based troll on WP and a couple of his shills, and I lack the enthusiasm for it. Midgley 23:34, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

I'll let you get on with your work then Midgley. mk 00:05, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

I am pretty much the only person who deals with multimedia. (Almost all the audio and video stuff that goes on on wikipedia is there because I did it. I'm the one who defined the policy after talking it over with the devs and Jimbo - check the old wikien postings. I wrote the media page, the media help page, and the copyright faq. I created the audio and vidoe templates, and I've located and/or uploaded most of the full length songs on wikipedia and virtually all of the videos) We use ogg because we consider patented formats go against our core principles of making wikipedia free (as in speech). Wikipedia isn't just a website, but also a core databse that is supposed to be resuable, at no cost. To that end, mpeg is absolutely not acceptable, and an even less-common java format is espeically not acceptable. Raul654 21:59, 29 April 2006 (UTC)

Hello Raul654. So if a hypothetical format were patented, but was granted by the owner for use at no cost, this would still be unacceptable for wikipedia because a 3rd party has veto over it? In a similar vein, even an implementation of the ogg format in Java would be likewise unacceptable - because Java is owned by Sun? BTW were you able to view my videos? Nobody has admitted to having been able to watch them yet (only the people that couldn't view them chose to speak up!). If you are virtually the only one to have uploaded media then that does say something about the popularity of web content that relies on software installs to use them. If virtually nobody uses the ogg media facility, does it really have much of a future?. mk 00:05, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

Wikipedia can not legally use any codecs that are proprietary because then the content would not be compatible with the GNU Free Document License. Preventing people from downloading videos is also incompatible with the GFDL. It sounds like you have an interesting system worked up that does indeed fit with Wikipedia's principle that "anyone can edit", but that's not enough. Wikipedia's content must both be able to be edited by anyone and available to anyone for any purpose allowed by the GFDL. — Saxifrage ✎ 01:11, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

Saxifrage, if a Java system were just a vehicle for editing and publishing footage that were already present on Wikimedia, would this not satisfy the GNU Free Document License? For example, footage would be uploaded normally to Wikimedia, from where it could be downloaded, but also exposed for access via a Java editing system from where it could be published / edited. Therefore benefiting the video with a wider audience via Java streams, but without compromising an ability to download the actual file from Wikimedia. 217.41.19.230 19:51, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

Wasn't there a proposal to allow un-free video formats only if there was an equivalent or better version available in a free format (e.g. ogg) as well? That would seem optimal to me: we guarantee that the content can always be accessed using free software, yet we make it accessible to that overwhelming majority whose computers don't come immediately equipped with the capability to play formats like ogg. — Matt Crypto 01:22, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

That sounds like a good idea. It wouldn't fix this proposal though: the advantage of the system proposed is that the video can be edited in-browser. To offer a free-format version for download would require that after every edit in-browser the servers would have to transcode the video from the proprietary format the Java app uses into the free format for download. If you've ever seen the CPU meter on a machine doing transcoding, you'll know why that's impossible with today's hardware. — Saxifrage ✎ 02:30, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

What if the "un-free" version is simply a Java or Flash applet playing the ogg? That way it can be displayed within the article, and on machines that don't have an ogg player installed, but under the applet there would still be a link to the ogg. No loss of freedom, huge gain in accessibility. (Yes, I realize that this still isn't editable; I don't think the editable video idea is going to take off with the current technology.) rspeer / ɹəədsɹ 05:18, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

Hello Rspeer. I think the key thing to increase the popularity of video on wikipedia is to make it easy for people to use. I.e. easy for authors to upload and reference in articles, and easy for viewers to watch the content. By Mirroring everything in ogg format also in Java format (plus providing a markup mechanism to put the video into a wikipedia page) this would only go part of the way to delivering on that IMO. 217.41.19.230 10:36, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

I've just come across this discussion. I run the company which develops Clesh so feel inclined to add a variety of comments of my own:

• Clesh is a complete video internet platform. It supports upload from PCs, Macs, Linux, mobile phones; logging; editing; publishing on web and mobile; hosting. It can also make, publish and host video podcasts.
• Clesh is a Web 2.0 web application and as such is continually being improved to incorporate good ideas from users (including users on WP)
• Clesh runs in browsers with Java - that is on about 90% of computers
• Our clients use mostly PCs and Macs, and it works on these without needing installation or configuration
• We develop on Linux with various Java JVMs and web browsers - we are happy to help Linux users with Clesh
• Java is free to download, just like Ogg. But unlike Ogg and propietory codecs, Java is standard on almost all computers
• Modern Java implementations are secure. If you disable Java for security reasons, you may be over-paranoid
• Each time we upgrade the Java player, new videos are automatically better - we don't need to persuade 500 million people to upgrade their players
• Most codecs are designed for video streaming. The Clesh Blackbird codec is designed for video editing over the web
• Clesh can take a wide range of input formats eg QuickTime, AVI, DV via firewire and mobile phone clips
• Most consumer (ie WP editors') video is shot on mobile phones. Clesh includes the ability to upload directly over the air, edit on the web, and publish
• Clesh does not need installing, so you can access your content from anywhere - a bit like web email but for video
• The typical internet device is a mobile phone. Clesh supports mobile phone capture and playback: Regional Film and Video AV interactive The Institution of Engineering and Technology onrec.com channelinfo.net cellular-new.com
• We could add any output format to Clesh. Dirac is checked for patent infringement so is one option
• Clesh is accessible: quick to learn, easy to use, updated regularly
• Free sign up at http://clesh.com/

I have added a few videos of my own (shot on mobile phones) eg Bungee jumping. The picture quality is not perfect, but with the Nokia N90 established and the Nokia N93 in the wings, we'll have DVD quality video available in WP for watching and editing RSN.

You can see more examples of mobile shot videos of various ages on my user page, or subscribe to my rather sporadic podcast at http://pro.forscene.net/ss1/ipod.rss Stephen B Streater 10:00, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

Foreign word standards

Is there a page where different standards for how foreign language words/names/articles/etc. are presented on Wikipedia? For example, someone has suggested on the talk page for Jopará that the article be retitled Jopara, without the accent. English speakers would most likely encounter the word/concept in a Spanish context, in which case the correct spelling would include the accent. Strictly speaking, however, the word comes from Guarani (though it would be used in both Spanish and Guarani), and according to Guarani rules, there wouldn't be an accent. zafiroblue05 | Talk 23:06, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

I think the page you're looking for is Wikipedia:Naming conventions. Specifically in answer to this issue, it should remain at Jopará if this is the most commonly-known spelling, and there should be a redirect at Jopara for ease of searching. It may be appropriate to note in the text of the article that the Guarnaí spelling is Jopara (bolded for the benefit of those coming from the redirect). — Saxifrage ✎ 00:09, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

There ought to be a systematic policy of putting in redirects whenever there is any accent or diacritical in the article title. Otherwise, it makes things much harder for English-speaking people looking for articles. - Runcorn 19:05, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

Templates for deletion

Mgekelly has unfairly dismissed my as a vandal becuae I listed templates for deletion just becuase they are highly offensive. Does this mean that if I continue to do so, or even place a vote to delete it just because of my morals, I really do desearve more respect. He can't even beleive that I do not (automatcialy or not) know today's date, it is possible to forget it, or what 'frivolous' means.Myrtone (the strict Australian wikipedian):-(

It sounds like you're trying to disrupt Wikipedia to make a point. Read WP:POINT. I can't believe this TFD. Do you really think that we should delete Template:User Pro-life just because you're not pro-life? Do you realize there are other people using Wikipedia and that *gasp* they don't all share your views? Or did someone make you the King of Wikipedia while I wasn't paying attention? —Wknight94 (talk) 11:26, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

"Do you really think that we should delete Template:User Pro-life just because you're not pro-life?" No, it's becuase anti-abortionists are technically not pro-life people, they're anti women people as explaind on WP:TFD.Myrtone (the strict Australian wikipedian):-O

I agree with your view, but wikipedia is not a soapbox. It's an established term, and pro-choice can also be redefined as pro-death (as a politician in North Carolina tried to do). Userboxes are more a social interaction than building a encyclopedia anyway (the prime reason to be here). KimvdLinde 14:03, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

Who even cares how each is defined. The idea of trying to get something deleted simply because it offends you is --- well --- offensive! Now, if you want to have all social impact userboxes removed, that's another story - but it sounds like you only want the ones you disagree with removed. To that, I can only say "wow". You're trying to make Myrtoneopedia. —Wknight94 (talk) 14:34, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

Looking at your nominations, I think Mgekelly was correct. Wikipedia does not base its contents on "what is offensive to Myrtone". In a community we all see things that personally we see as offensive but others don't, but we all to get over it. Your behaviour is borderline vandalism. FearÉIREANN\^(caint) 14:57, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

I'm surprised that wikipedia does not base its contents on even international (drug) laws. I happen to see templates that claim a user to transgress such laws as immoral (why are they less common on wikipedia than in the real world, that is my expierience (I'm middle class Australian)). Why should I be blocked form editing for a perfectly reasonable TFD nomination? How unfair! Mgekelly finds it hard to believe that I do not (automaticaly or not) know today's date. It is possible to forget it. And no one has yet told me what 'frivolous' means. Help!Myrtone (the strict Australian wikipedian):-(

Frivolous means unnecessary. I don't want to sound condecending here, but you have an Internet connection. Google it. Also, you're using a computer when posting these messages. The date is in the bottom-right corner. You can't claim you forgot. As for your TfD nominations, they are bad faith nominations because they are based entirely on your personal opinion, an opinion that the majority of Wikipedians do not share. Wikipedia is not obligated to adjust itself simply because you are offended by a few random templates. Also, the "not drug-free" template can be interpreted in a variety of ways. Maybe that user smokes marajuana for reduce pain? Can you say otherwise in every single instance? Of course not. I suggest you get over your problems with these templates. Don't like them? Don't use them. – Someguy0830 (Talk | contribs) 03:17, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

Merge tags

I don't know if this is the best place to raise it, but there is a problem with some tags, specifically merge tags, in so far as they don't appear to be time limited. I keep coming across articles which have merge tags attached and have done for months. No-one has supported the merger. Sometimes no-one has even commented on it, or the last comment was months ago. But the poser of the tag stands guard on it, and woe betide anyone who dares move it. They will be accused of censorship and everything bar starting the Black Death.

One user has been guarding his beloved merge tag for nearly a year now. No-one had commented on it, and it appears to be just a bit of ego on his behalf (he is pissed off that another article, in passing, dares mention the topic he is a self-proclaimed expert on — he has written the "definitive" (his words) article on the topic on the topic and is annoyed that someone else dare write about it somewhere else!. He wants them merged (ie, his version kept and the other passing mention dumped) and stands guard over his merge tag like Merlin.

Today I took a merge tag off another article. It was debated (slightly) in February and had no support. It has just been sitting there ever since. I know from experience of the author of the merge tag he will go ballistic when he sees it removed (its the same story. Author has his own "pet" article and does not like the fact that, in passing, the topic is mentioned in summary somewhere else. He is particularly peeved that he can't POV the second article the way, though sheer attrition, he has been able to POV his 'own' version. So he has the merge tag in theory to merge them, in reality to get stuff from one article dumped, leaving his article as the definitive version on Wikipedia).

Its almost funny seeing these battles. The problem is that the merge tag is not being used in many cases for genuine mergers but as part of one author's attempts in effect to copyright a topic and ensure that no-one else dares mentions it outside his or her pet article. Even when no-one agrees they still stand guard over the merge tag and threaten fire and brimstone on anyone daring to remove the merge tag. The tags should be time-limited, with say a decision within 14 days, or 7 days, of their inclusion in an article, and a ban on they being imposed over and over again on the same article by the same user. As of now the merge tag is being grossly abused and seems to reflect not so much a real need to merger but someone's ego being annoyed that someone else dared write on 'their' topic, even in two or three lines, elsewhere. FearÉIREANN\^(caint) 15:25, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

Examples please? It's hard to evaluate your proposal without some specifics. · rodii · 17:04, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

I've always viewed merge tags as a notice that the placer of the tags was going to carry out the merge in a relatively short time, if there was consensus to do so (or at least not consensus not to do so, in the case of little or no comment) and would support removal of tags that had been there a long time. The answer to a removal that is complained about, at least in my view, is "so go ahead and merge them then, let's see how it comes out and discuss the result, we can always go back if we have to..." I sincerely believe that every tag I've ever placed I followed up in some fairly close period of time (unless I forgot some? feel free to catch me at a lie there so I can go fix it... grin). Isn't that how most people think of these tags? ++Lar: t/c 17:08, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

I've always seen merge tags as a way for people to inform me that someone has found yet another collective term for the four elements of Fire, Water, Earth, and Air. --Carnildo 01:49, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

Cross-namespace redirects

So, what's the word, village pump? (Or, if you prefer, the village pump, villag pump, villiage pump, De Kroeg, etc. :)) Are cross-namespace redirects (specifically from article-space to Wikipedia:-space) against policy or not? -Silence 23:42, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

I say speedy the lot of them. Melchoir 23:50, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

Really? Including ArbCom, NPOV, be bold, assume good faith, CotW, Wikipedia is not paper, Deletion Review, no personal attacks, disambiguation, avoid self-references, votes for undeletion, RfA, and the literally hundreds of other cross-namespace redirects out there? (For that matter, I've been told that technically all WP: pages are in the article namespace, making them cross-namespace redirects as well; should we speedy them too?). Why? -Silence 23:59, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

I meant the ones you've listed here. Someone might actually want to know about village pumps. Melchoir 00:06, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

I was only using those as examples, purely to show how incredibly ubiquitous these cross-namespace redirects are, not to discuss whether those exact pages ought link here. I'm interested solely in the broader policy issues of whether cross-namespace redirects are acceptable, not so much in any specific example of a cross-namespace redirect (I agree that an article on village pumps wouldn't (as far as I can see) be a bad idea). Current policy doesn't seem to discourage the creation of useful cross-namespace redirects to Wikipedia:-space where there isn't an article to consume that space, yet a surprisingly large number of users seem to vehemently oppose cross-namespace redirects, without any rational justification for it and seemingly based on the misunderstanding that it's currently against policy, when in reality nothing could be further from the truth, as far as I can see. So, if we aren't going to ban cross-namespace redirects, we should spread the word on that fact to discourage the misunderstanding that they're already banned; and if we are going to ban them, we should make that explicit and be completely consistent in our standards for when such redirects are and aren't appropriate. The current state of affairs, where redirects are being completely arbitrarily targeted based solely on the political climate and which userprojects are more or less popular than others, is intolerably unfair and senseless. So: what's the word? -Silence 00:18, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

I agree with Silence, I'm also curious about this issue. Why are cross namespace redirects an "inherently bad thing," as it seems some people are labelling it? For example, RC Patrol was recently deleted in an RfD simply because of the fact that it was a cross-namespace redirect (not because RC Patrol is anything in real life or that there's a possibility of a legitimate main space article in that spot). Is there some kind of technical issue that I'm not aware of, or do people simply think that they set bad precedents? EWS23 | (Leave me a message!) 00:31, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

Relevant policy seems to be at Wikipedia:Redirects for deletion#When should we delete a redirect? which says we might want to delete such redirects (#5 under "You might want to delete ...") but not if they're useful for navigation (#3 and #5 under "However, avoid deleting ..."). Also see Wikipedia:Redirects for deletion/Precedents#Should redirects to other spaces be kept?. -- Rick Block (talk) 00:40, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

I'd always assumed that cross-space redirects were inappropriate according to WP:ASR, that is, everything in the article space should relate to articles, not to the process of making those articles. Presumably redirects will be kept in an offline or hardcopy version of Wikipedia, but not the Wikispace stuff, so having one leading to the other is broken. Ziggurat 00:52, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

Then Wikipedia:Avoid self-references (WP:ASR, incidentally, is a cross-namespace redirect from articlespace, as I mentioned above :)) should state that explicitly, or otherwise state explicitly that it doesn't forbid cross-namespace redirects. Because currently it gives absolutely no indication whatsoever that cross-namespace redirects are in any way a bad thing. In fact, every indication of the circumstances surrounding the page leads one to believe that WP:ASR doesn't have any problem with cross-namespace redirects, because WP:ASR itself is the target of a large number of such redirects! Mention of Wikipedia in articles, Avoid self-references, WP:NSR, Avoid self-reference, WP:SELF, Avoid self references, Avoid self reference, WP:ASR. We need to be consistent on this issue and determine exactly when cross-namespace redirects are and aren't acceptable. If existing policy is not going to be changed to condemn cross-namespace redirects, then we should state as much on Wikipedia:Avoid self-references and say that such redirects should only be deleted when they don't assist users in navigation, since this is such a common misconception. -Silence 01:05, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

Hey, I tried to get this into policy at WP:CSD but it got watered down. :-) Anyway, Ziggurat has given a good reason. A related idea is that having a cross-namespace redirect like The Communism Vandal implies that the guy described at Wikipedia:Long term abuse/Wikipedia is Communism is notable/significant/encyclopedic enough that our encyclopedia should have an article on him. (EWS23, there's no technical issue.) Note: I have no problem making a big exception for the WP:FOO style of redirects. I think it should be worded tightly, though, because redirects like "RfA" could also count as navigational aids. FreplySpang (talk) 01:09, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

I would assume that WP: type links are okay, because they're only technically in the articlespace, and would easily be parsed out for an offline version (that they all start with an abbreviation of Wikipedia I'd always assumed meant that they were in the Wikispace instead). In any case, I would agree that there needs to be a definitive policy on this. Ziggurat 01:43, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

Last fall, I created a list of every redirect from Article space to User space, and dumped the load (many dozens) onto RFD. One was saved WP:BEEFSTEW, one was changed to point at Wikipedia space, and all the rest were deleted. Dragons flight 01:14, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

Well I just dealt with all of the cross-namespace redirects listed here, are there any others you guys happen to know about? --Cyde Weys 23:54, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

Just to clarify this before I get asked, the only acceptable cross-namespace redirects have to begin with WP: (for project pages) and WT: (for project talk pages). Obviously having something like No personal attacks that redirects into project space is entirely unacceptable and directly conflicts with our encyclopedic mission. Plus, it breaks mirrors, which mirror the articles but not the project space pages. --Cyde Weys 23:58, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

'historical jesus vs myther' wars

The Historical Jesus vs. Jesus Myth Wars & Acharya S

http://en.Wikipedia.org/wiki/Acharya_S

I understand Wikipedia has been altering some aspects of its policies to enable it to be a more reliable, professional encyclopedia, and I have seen a few articles that reflect this. (I heard the interview on NPR with the head editor/manager... I was impressed by his visions and goals for Wikipedia)

THEN, today, when researching the subject of "Historical Jesus" at various places on the net, I encountered numerous Flame Wars ...whole websites and blogs dedicated to slandering individuals and authors in the "HJ" (Historical Jesus) camp... and other sites denigrating certain authors in the "Jesus Myth" (Jesus didn't exist) camp. Having made no conclusions of my own on this subject, I found the war between these participants, interesting, yet sophomoric... the goal apparently to destroy the reputations, and whole careers, of opposing players... including tactics like digging into private information and publishing it on the net.

AND I was amazed and greatly disappointed when the links ultimately lead me to WIKIPEDIA

How can you allow Wikipedia to be a battlefield for personal feuds?

While I may be skeptical of the above author's hypotheses in the subject of historical Jesus, the author is legitimate, nonetheless. The article may fit into the catagory of a book review (sort of), and while it is not an obvious “rant”, it is certainly not merely unbaised information about the above author.

• see the entry for JP Holding, (a player on the opposing side) as an example of a much more appropriate author description

I am not defending the author, Acharya S, nor her work ... I am complaining that this kind of game is allowed on Wikipedia

Obviously we have to allow some level of debate in order to sort out article content. In this case the article has improved considerably over the last few months.Geni 04:01, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

Expert Editors guideline

A new proposed guideline, Wikipedia:Expert editors, has been drafted and is awaiting comments. --EngineerScotty 03:51, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

Users in Birth categories

There's been a gradual on-again, off-again edit war going on on my user page over my addition of that page to Category:1989 births. I don't see any reason why users can't be added to such categories, but others insist that this is so. Lar, ever the calm negotiator, suggested that I post here and find out, once and for all. —Gordon P. Hemsley→✉ 04:21, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

It would seem the primary reason for that is that the category was designed specifically for articles that are part of the encyclopedia, which user pages don't fall under. If there's a "Wikipedians born in the 1980's" category or something to that effect, it'd be much better for your user page to be categoried there. – Someguy0830 (Talk | contribs) 04:27, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

Wikipedia tries to maintain a division between encyclopedia articles and sections that relate to the process of writing an encyclopedia. Categories always contain only one or the other. This is so that if the encylopedia is published or presented in another forum the parts that relate only to the making of the encyclopedia can be removed easily, and if someone wants to access Wikipedia the encyclopedia they aren't barraged with information about how it was made. Think of it like a curtain between the encyclopedia and the authors of the encyclopedia. The relevant guideline is at WP:ASR: "User pages may be categorized under Category:Wikipedians, but not under Category:People." Regards, Ziggurat 04:30, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

Oh, alright. You win. But I suppose it makes sense. And at least now I have a reason, instead of just a bunch of people coming in and reverting my user page. Thanks for the info. —Gordon P. Hemsley→✉ 04:38, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

If several different people make the same change to your page, it's often (but not always) a suggestion that there might be something to their assertion, and seeking guidance, as you've done here, is definitely the way to go... full marks! That some of them were anons thins that argument a bit, of course, as the anons may all be the same person. I'm not myself so keen on birth year categories for us editors (because I'd be the only one in "Wikipedians born in 1843" is not why) but if others want to do it, why not. As I suggested on your talk page, start by creating the nesting... Wikipedians/Wikipedians by birth year/Wikipedians born in 1989 would be my suggestion of how to nest the categories. Hope that helps! ++Lar: t/c 17:41, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

NPOV

1. Does NPOV apply to just non-controversial subjects, controversial subjects, or both? Any difference at all in its application?

2. Does including a single point of view, count as POV pushing? The Wikipedia article on Describing points of view says that "... points of view (POV) are often essential to articles which treat controversial subjects"? --Iantresman 15:46, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

My view is that NPOV applies to everything in articlespace. Controversial or noncontroversial. It's a bedrock principle of how things are to be done here, laid down very early on. NPOV does not mean not reporting that there exist different points of view about controversial topics. It means not advocating any of those points of view. Report that they exist, balance the amount of coverage given the different views in rough proportion to how widely held they are, respectively, present the facts and opinions in an evenhanded manner and let the reader draw his or her own conclusions... Does that help? If not maybe you might want to ask your question again in a different way or with more specifics. ++Lar: t/c 17:09, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

It's incredibly difficult to avoid some sort of POV. Just creating an article may be a POV - that you deem someone or something worth an article. And you never know what will prove controversial. Runcorn 19:41, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

I believe some articles are not NPOV, but the view of a group, or colored by the way western people understand i.e. religious topics (Superstition). I do not know if there is perfect NPOV, but it is possible to improve towards it. Akidd dublin•tl•ctr-l 08:09, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

Use of American v. British/Commonwealth English

A vast majority of native English speakers speak American, not British (or Commonwealth) English. For this reason, to the extent that spelling is to be standardized or when a dispute arises, it makes sense to use American English.

I note American English is much more widely used on the Internet. A Google search for color gets 1,370 million hits, colour gets 231M. Standardize gets 26 million, standardise gets 2.3 million. Favorite gets 1.2B, favourite gets 275M. In general the American spelling is at least five times more used than the British spelling. It isn't even close!

I bring this up because in the dispute between using the American and British spellings for aluminum for the title of the entry, the British varient won out. I think this was a mistake.

I general, I think the best guide when it comes to a question of spelling is usage, and the American spelling of a word will virtually always be the most used. So I propose either a policy that explicitly defers to the dominant dialect of English (American English) or a policy based on usage. Kitteneatkitten 23:47, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

Peace and harmony is best maintained, by deliberately avoiding a standard, and going by the "leave it be philosophy". Most articles apply entirely or mainly to one particular country, and that country's usage prevails. Elsewhere, whatever standard was used when the article was created, should be stuck with. --Rob 00:02, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

The general consensus on this is that either is acceptable so long as the style of writing remains consistent. However, aluminium is listed as the standardized form of the word with the American version as an acceptable variant. Using the first spelling is technically correct. – Someguy0830 (Talk | contribs) 00:05, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

Agreed. Also, I don't buy the argument about the "vast majority". Did you figure in India? Numbers on the Internet are skewed towards richer countries, of course. --Stephan Schulz 00:10, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

Uh… did you even read what he posted? If it's skewed to the "rich countries" then that should be enough. By the way, if all of the native English speakers in India used the internet, then it would STILL be skewed to American spellings. 67.6% (or so) native English speakers come from America. So, your point is incorrect. R'son-W 07:09, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

The general consensus is that articles about people/subjects that would be English use the English spelling, and people/subjects that would be American take the American spelling. Other articles stay with what they start as. We explicitly don't favor one over the other as this is an international project and it would be difficult and ethnocentric, to say the least, to enforce American spellings. Also, I don't think that a Google search can validate the greater usage of American English: certainly in Europe, Africa, and Asia, British English is more common. Snoutwood (tóg) 02:09, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

Indians do not speak English as their native language, and only a small minority of Indians speak English at all (and they are generally rich enough to afford Internet access.) Yet American spellings still dominate the Internet by better than a five to one ratio. Also, in many countries those who learn ESL learn American English, such as Mexico and Vietnam.

Regarding aluminum, who exactly decided that the British spelling is the "standard?" IUPAC might be the best group to decide how to spell new elements, but I don't see how they can decide the standard form of an old word like aluminum. Once again, in searching the Internet we find the American spelling is far more common than the British. There is no standard spelling, but there is the more used one, and that is the American spelling. Kitteneatkitten 00:45, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

Read the page. Aluminium was the original spelling. The use of aluminium is technically correct in this instance. I happen to think that spelling and general pronounciation is weird, but this is not my decision. Aluminium is the correct spelling to use. – Someguy0830 (Talk | contribs) 01:07, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

Historical usages are irrelevant. The original spelling of color was color, honor honor, and so forth for that kind of word (o/ou); the original spelling of -ize was -ize (or actually -ιζειν -izein); and for that matter, the original spelling of wheat was hwæte. Currently, some people spell the name of the thirteenth element aluminum, some aluminium. And anyway, the actual original name was alumium, followed by aluminum, and only after that aluminium, according to our article, so your facts are off as well.

At any rate, in response to the proposal: pragmatically, we're going to piss a lot of contributors off by snubbing their spelling habits, and the fact that there are more Americans than Brits just means that more American spellings will be put into articles to start with, and due to the policy of not changing them we'll have your one-to-five ratio or whatever. So I don't view this as much of a problem. —Simetrical (talk • contribs) 05:11, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

This is a perpetual battle, but Wikipedia uses aluminium because this is the IUPAC spelling, accepted for reference works in the English language. We use the spelling sulfur for the same reason: one apiece to each side of the Atlantic!, although editors should please create the necessary redirects... "redirects are cheap" Physchim62 (talk) 15:48, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

Aluminium is a more consistent spelling; there are many elements ending in -ium, from helium to plutonium. - Runcorn 19:15, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

And? Using program all the time is more consistent than using program to refer to computer programs and programme to refer to other program(me)s; shall we purge programme from Wikipedia? For that matter, thru is more consistent with English spelling than through, so shall we purge the latter? While I sympathize with those promoting greater consistency in language, even to the point of being a cut spelling fan, Wikipedia is not a soapbox for linguistic prescriptivism.

Physchim does bring up a good point, though. If we agree, as a policy, to follow IUPAC spellings, I'd be all behind that. —Simetrical (talk • contribs) 02:36, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

Can't agree there. 'Program' may have derived etymologically from 'programme', but it's a distinct meaning and can be regarded as a different word. Runcorn 19:43, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

Sure, but they're pronounced the same, so surely better to spell them the same? That's if we want consistency in spelling. It's inconsistent to use different spellings for the same pronunciation. —Simetrical (talk • contribs) 22:39, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

There's an amusing essay by Mark Twain about that... — Saxifrage ✎ 10:38, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

"1843 births" and "1902 deaths" in biographies: a waste of space

Who exactly here has found having these links at the end of biographies useful?

Now having a page listing everyone who died in 1902 might have some use, though I can't really think of one. However I don't see why a link to these at most marginally and rarely useful pages should be at the end of each biography. It wastes my time, frankly, because like many people I have a habit of reading all the way to the end of an article if I've already read most of it.

Likewise, how often does a person really get to the end of an article about some particular Italian American he is interested in and say "Gee, what I need now is a long random list of other Italian Americans."

It would be interesting to see how many clicks these links actually get, if anyone has access to these figures.

Kitteneatkitten 00:56, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

I wouldn't mind them so much if people didn't sort them (alphabetically) in front of infinitely more relevant categories. Melchoir 01:06, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

The "births" category is probably not terribly useful (though I'm sure some have use for it--for trivia if nothing else). The "deaths" categories, OTOH (along with Category:Living people) have a legitimate administrative function--Wikipedia must be more careful what we write about the living, to avoid libel. While slandering the dead certainly isn't nice, dead men can't bring lawsuits--the law, at least in the US, clearly states that deceased persons cannot be libelled. (Nor can the relatives of a dead person bring suit if the dead person is subjected to slanderous accusations).

--EngineerScotty 03:39, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

They do serve another useful function, expecially for the more heavily populated ones in the last couple of centuries. They help identify people who are misindexed in these categories and likely in others as well, making them hard to find even if they are listed in the categories you find more useful, either because they are indexed by their first name or because many of the people who are gung-ho about adding funny little squiggles on so many of the letters on the article title don't have enough sense to strip them off in the sort keys which index the categories. Gene Nygaard 03:55, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

I agree with Melchoir's point too. There are far too many bots and semibots running around alphabetically (with numbers before letters) sorting the lists of categories on the bottom of the article pages. I'd like to see that stopped. Gene Nygaard 03:59, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

I agree as well. Categories should be grouped and organized based on importance; alphabetical is entirely arbitrary. I've tried to spur discussion on this point before with non-bot humans and have unfortunately gotten nowhere. Alas, AWB also has an auto-category alphabetizing feature. Postdlf 04:03, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

The kid in me who used to read science fiction back in the 1980s is pretty delighted to see someone say with full sincerity that we've got to do something about all the bots and semi-bots running around alphabetizing everything. This is the future we created. -GTBacchus^(talk) 04:07, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

Sorting birth and death categories first has always been far more popular, see the history of pretty much any biography. If the community decides this is not the best order, then I'm sure bot owners (including myself) would be more than happy to add re-ordering them as an incidental task. Martin 15:02, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

GTB, that is brilliant!!!

Kitteneatkitten 05:00, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

I strongly disagree. These death/birth categories are very much useful. I've used several many times to perform cleanup work and the like on biogrphies. Mad Jack O'Lantern 04:28, 3 May 2006 (UTC) It's great for writing historical fiction, because you can see who died in a particular year and work interesting ones into the story. I do this for a game I've been running set in the 1940's. Xstryker 17:52, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

I agree that these categories are useful. Ideally, each author would be tagged with attributes including birth and death date which we could dynamically query, for example to find poets who died in Spring in the 1960's. But this won't happen any time soon, and the current categories at least fulfill a pretty useful function. Deco 14:57, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

acknowledging funding organizations

Hi

I'm a part of a research network funded by the EU whose mission is to: "... leverage added-value from existing work through interaction and to use this to encourage further contributions from new participants. A key objective of the network is to foster interaction between all the many different scientific sectors involved in this multi-disciplinary area and to help create truly inter-disciplinary perspectives." OK, blah blah blah, but the point is we have funding to create something which is publicly understandable about a subdiscipline of cognitive science. This would of course respect the no original research rules, but rather create a summary of existing published pratice that other members of the field could freely expand upon.

I've been looking at and playing with wikipedia for about 6 months now and I'm convinced it could support this kind of endeavour and that this would be well within its mission. I expect to make a portal. But the one question is that the funding agency wants to be acknowledged. There are many pages with acknowledgements of original sources at the bottom (e.g. EB 1911 or whatever). Would it be OK to cite people who paid other people while they were typing in content to wikipedia?

Thanks,

--Joanna Bryson 10:51, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

Assuming I understand this question, I think a notice on the talk page of each article would be an appropriate place to give credit (probably in the form of a template like the 1911 Britannica one, except that goes on the article page). Note that the Britannica template just says substantial parts of the article come from the 1911 EB, and it's often removed once the article has expanded or evolved substantially--so your own organization's acknowlegement may not there in perpetuity either (though it should always be there in the history). Do you and your funding agency understand that other people can and will edit this, that the content is released under the GFDL and that no one owns articles once they're entered, etc.? · rodii · 15:19, 3 May 2006 (UTC) Also, ironic respect to your funders for using "leverage added-value," errant hyphen and all, with a straight face. :)

Yes, they are aware of that and not sure whether to go with this model. I think it is really an interesting question --- if we do go forwards and embrace wikipedia as a scientific tool supporting research then it will have an impact on the culture I think. And on the mission. Most encyclopedias don't document the creation of a discipline, for example. On the other hand, most don't have a "current events" category.

Maybe we should make an acknowledgement template which points out that funders are acknowledged on the talk page from the main page. I like your suggestion other than that -- I do think it would be nice to have a easily reinserted direction arrow. Also, note that eventually the funding notice (like the EB ref) probably should get deleted when it no longer represents the majority of the content. Funders don't get acknowledged on papers that cite funded research, just the original paper. We would also have an accompanying traditional publication for the "archival" version. --Joanna Bryson 17:56, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

I think that listing funders at all will cause a lot of controversy (similar things have happened before, and they have a tendency to explode, see for example the current fight about Wikipedia:Reward board). A concern that I have is that you'd wind up with a skewed article. I'm sure that you realize that you'd have to follow our neutral point of view policy, but I'd like to make sure that your sponsor is aware that this isn't the place to get publicity for themselves.

I don't really think that listing funders on the article page is appropriate, as it comprimises our neutrality. I wouldn't mind having a small tag on the talk page, though, in the manner of the EB 1911 template. That being said, I think that you should post a message onto WikiEN-l, the English Wikipedia's mailing list. You'll be bound to get responses from a wide variety of Wikipedians, and that'll help you gauge the community's feelings on the matter. More information about the list can be found here. Good luck! Snoutwood (tóg) 18:33, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

Thanks. Funders in academic papers are quite used to having just very small acks in footnotes, so for academics its no culture shock. What is much more a problem for objectivity is when the funder isn't acknowledged so you don't know what kind of bias may be in the research. But I did think it might be surprising / confusing to a lot of less-academic wikipedians, which is why I was looking for input. --Joanna Bryson 20:03, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

That last is an excellent point. Better visible bias than hidden bias. (I'm not suggesting that there will be any bias at all, of course.) Snoutwood, we're talking about funding agencies like NSF, EU agencies, NATO, the UN. This seems quite different than, say, a company funding a show on "ad-free" public radio in exchange for a brief promotional announcement. Assuming a bright line can be drawn between acknowledgments and quasi-advertising, what Joanna is suggesting seems like a win for Wikipedia with not significant downside. But I haven't read the discussions you're suggesting--I'll do that.

Joanna, maybe a small invented sample of the kind of acknowledgment you're proposing might help clarify matters? · rodii · 20:21, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

(@Joanna:) Other possibilities include IMHO:

• WP:SOCK#'Role' accounts: you could try to run a "role" account, which would mean that the reasons for the program could be explained at the role account's user page. Note that "role" accounts need to get some sort of permission, and that the link above indicates that there is not a standard procedure for getting such permission, nor, apparently, any external organisation that has such account granted currently (I thought there was some but it's no longer on the page) and that there is currently only one "external" organisation (a "trusted party" of some sort) running a role account mentioned in that section. Anyway, you could choose a nick name that reflects the name of your program, and every edit done with that nick, would tie the edit with the program (as would be shown in edit history); clicking the user name in edit history would lead to a "user" description explaining the thing. And, by listing the "my contributions" of that account, one would get a quick overview of it's contributions. Seems simple. But probably also something to discuss with the Wikimedia foundation (I mean apart from with the on-line community, who might frown on this in their own way) whether such thing would be a good idea.
• WP:COPY#Introducing invariant sections or cover texts in wikipedia: I updated that section of the copyright page some time ago, stating that introducing "invariant" sections per the GFDL is not really possible. But what you describe as being the thing you want to do is indeed something foreseen by the FSF to be covered precisely by such invariant sections (and/or what in the GFDL is called "cover texts"). While updating that piece, describing that Wikipedia goes currently by "no invariant sections/no cover text", I thought about the edit summaries, that while in the legalese terms of the GFDL not exactly invariant sections nor cover texts, they provide a possibility to leave (stable!) "markers" about who is behind the contribution (like, for instance, we suggest (semi-)bot software to leave such markers in the edit summary, for instance "by popups", if you ever saw such thing in an edit summary). So that's basically the technique I described in the section of the WP:COPY page linked above. Something similar could be used, for what you proposed. A difference with the previous idea would be that it's a little harder to retrieve a list of contributions with this "marker", and that nobody can forbid others to use the same marker.

My two cents... Still a question, if you are part of a EU-funded project, what's the name of that project? Just out of curiosity (I used to be in some...) --Francis Schonken 20:45, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

That's very interesting. How about this:

1. Create a "role" page or some such that describes the funding body / network (in this case, since you ask,euCognition.
2. On the article main page, put a template that says something like "Time for some of the authoring of this article was provided by an independent funding agency. See history for details." This template could link to a page with an edited version of this discussion (initially).
3. In the history page, on your edits that are funded, put a link to the role in your comment.

This makes sense to me because the history is the only thing that's really permanent, and it seems to be minimally disruptive. Am I on the right track?--Joanna Bryson 07:22, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

The way I looked at it a "role" page would be in "User:" namespace, I don't think any other namespace qualifies for something like that. That's why WP:SOCK applies, all forms of "acceptable" sockpuppet accounts are listed on that page too (and "Role account" is one of them).

This means (among other things):

• You create the account by using the "login" button in the upper right corner of your browser (if you're currently logged in, log out with your current account first);
• For example, choose a login name that combines your name with "euCognition", something like "Joanna Bryson euCognition"
• You're the only person knowing the password (it's only from the moment that you start sharing that password with other people in the program that the "role account" really applies, until then it would be simply a "declared alternate account", allowed without reserve, per WP:SOCK#Segregation and security for a non-hidden "segregation of tasks" reason).
• On the user page of that account you explain what it is all about (advantage: you don't have to allow others to post irrelevant content on that user page, and can ask protection/semi-protection on the page if there would be abuse: there's no other namespace - not even template or project namespace - where you could ask that so easily), and indicate that the account is "run" by the person also known as "user:Joanna Bryson";
• The user talk page of the account can be used to answer questions regarding the use of the account, and, of course, regarding any other issue that needs to be adressed regarding the account (e.g. if the account inadvertently made an erroneous edit, other wikipedians can ask you about it there).
• This allows you to retrieve lists of edits performed by that account (simply go to "contributions" of that account, and you get the list).
• Possibly, you also activate an e-mail address for the account, opening an other possible channel of communication (if you have a different "project" e-mail address, this allows you to segregate personal e-mail traffic from the "EU program" related communications).

While notes on article talk pages are less "stable", and "edit summary" content can be mimicked by editors you might not want to be associated with, the "separate user account" solution has pretty much of all the advantages you need I suppose.

Still another consideration: linking to the EU (Cordis, IST,...) and/or euCognition website(s) from a user page would not be experienced as problematic. Disseminating links to external webpages on other places in wikipedia (for example, making your user signature include a direct & clickable external link, or post external links on talk pages in a systematic way) would easily be perceived as "linkspam", and be rejected by the wikipedia community. An account's signature *is* a link to its "user page" (unless you modify that in user preferences), so with every edit you do, both in edit history, and also with the sig on talk pages you make a straight link to the user page that explains what the account is about (and contains the external links, linking to the program websites) - no problem there!

Re. my involvement in EU projects, I didn't make it to an FP6 one (yet), I was involved in some FP5 ones. One of them involved development of an "artificial cognitive system" though. --Francis Schonken 09:44, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

PS, FYI:

• Here is the list of edits you did with the Joanna Bryson account: [11]
• Here is the list of edits you (and maybe some others before you) did with the "anonymous" 81.6.234.170 IP: [12]

--Francis Schonken 09:57, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, sorry, I keep forgetting that I get logged out by Wikipedia until I see the wrong author come up on the sig!--Joanna Bryson 13:01, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

I think that's a brilliant idea, I will shop that by the funders involved. Do you think I should still also send this to the mailing list? Do you think someone should make a policy page about this? I guess I need to do more reading about policy is made -- it's certainly not concensus yet. --Joanna Bryson 13:01, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

"Do you think I should still also send this to the mailing list?" - basically: that's up to you. I'd try to (at least) notify some of the people involved directly with the Wikimedia Foundation if going for a full multiple-user "role account" model. Mailing list is a standard proceeding in such case, contacting one of the board members (e.g. user:Angela) or the "office" contact user:Danny, and let them decide how to proceed might be another option (see also http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Press_room#Press_contacts for some e-mail adresses and phone numbers, if you'd like to discuss this by e-mail/phone first). Using OTRS (follow link) would be another option I suppose, and there are probably more...

"Do you think someone should make a policy page about this?" - it's not likely that would happen, while in fact it is already covered by current policies and guidelines (primarily by WP:SOCK as indicated above). But if successful for a full-blown role account, you'd probably be listed there. If this results in a two-way active collaboration (I mean "Wikimedia Foundation" <-> "euCognition"), meta would probably be the right place to discuss/advertise that (depends also whether you'd want to limit this to "English wikipedia encyclopedia" in strict sense, or rather something accross the borders of several wikimedia projects).

Anyway, I'd concentrate on what you'd want to do in "user:" namespace now first (i.e. getting the "acknowledgement of funding organisations" worked out, per the suggested steps), which, in a first step, afaik does not require policy change (BTW, see Wikipedia:How to create policy for more on that topic). --Francis Schonken 14:18, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

Inclusion of entire article

While closing an AfD debate, I found this strange situation where an article (Alex Campana) is completely (besides the See also section and the categories) included in another one (Current Watford F.C. players). I think that either the first article should be substituted in the second or the second article should link (rather than include) the first, but I can't find anything in the policies. Opinions? - Liberatore(T) 13:17, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

Redundancy is unecyclopedic ? --DLL 20:49, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

Well, now that you put it this way, the answer is perfectly clear. Yes, obviously this amount of redundancy is unencyclopedic. I will remove the inclusion from the second page. Thank you. - Liberatore(T) 11:58, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

I quite agree. That's what cross-links are for. Runcorn 19:46, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

Zondor's "Bad Things" campaign

50 Bad Things in Wikipedia

1. Ownership
2. Copyright violation
3. Legal advice
4. Medical advice
5. Safety responsibility
6. Validity guarantee
7. Bad faith
8. Incivility
9. Bad etiquette
10. Not signing
11. Bad edit summary
12. Wikihating
13. Personal attacks
14. Harassment
15. Defamation
16. Legal threats
17. Newcomer biting
18. Vandal insulting
19. Disruption
20. Not being bold
21. Not Wikipedia
22. Dictionary
23. Spamming
24. Nonsense
25. Wikicrime
26. Vandalism
27. Edit warring
28. Wheel warring
29. 3RR
30. Sock puppetry
31. Trolling
32. Vanity
33. Autobiography
34. Bad article ideas
35. POV pushing
36. Self referencing
37. Weasel wording
38. Peacock terming
39. Some words
40. Censorship
41. Profanity
42. Bad usernames
43. Lack of notability
44. Unverifiability
45. Bad sourcing
46. Original research
47. Incomplete citation
48. Voting
49. Non-consensus
50. Lack of common sense
51. Following rules blindly

FYI, Zondor started inserting {{Associations/Wikipedia Bad Things}} on the (currently) 36 37 40 (hard to keep up) guidelines/policies mentioned in that template. Good idea?

I don't have a clear opinion on the issue yet, apart from some technical issues with the template (it's TOO LONG, so crosses the lines under quite a few level ==...== section titles on most pages); also in general my first appreciation is too long: 36-link navigational templates don't work too good on pages that usually already have quite a few templates. That's a usability concern (if it doesn't help to get to the right guideline/policy quicker I suppose it's no real improvement, 36-item lists on pages that already have a few linked lists is assumably a usability horror in that sense).

Also, basicly it's a negative approach, listing "wrong" things on 36 policy/guideline pages, and not listing "things that can go splendid" in wikipedia, with links to pages with positive tips & tricks on how to achieve that.

Also several entries in the list might be questionable, e.g. "Weasel wording" and "Peacock terming" are currently listed - why not the more generic wikipedia:words to avoid?

But, as said, apart from these "first impressions" I don't have a real opinion yet. Something in this vein (but simpler then) might maybe work and might actually be a good idea. --Francis Schonken 13:51, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

I quite like it, it lists pretty much all of the bad things on Wikipedia in one place, but is a bit long. --Knucmo2 15:24, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

I dislike the title of bad things which is overly negative. Possibly "Issues of concern"? Also, it is long as a template as currently formatted. It might make sense a list or a category. JoshuaZ 15:27, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

I think there's something interesting here, though using a template seems like the wrong approach. A page, maybe, with appropriate responses or warning templates for each, could develop into a useful reference. So I'm tending toward the list approach. · rodii · 15:32, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

A page would be better as the current template lumps together everything with no indicators of seriousness. 'Bad usernames' aren't the same order of problem as 'edit warring' and 'pov pushing'. --Squiddy | (squirt ink?) 15:47, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

Meh, this template is one of Wikipedia's Bad Things. Can't we at least have a complementary List of Good Things? – 217.35.96.167 16:15, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

Heh, it's impossible to figure out what some of them are without following the links. "Some words" is a bad thing? "Uncommon sense" is a bad thing?  ;-) Kirill Lokshin 16:18, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

I too think that this template (now with 50 entries) is the wrong way to go about this - pehaps a category:Things to avoid on Wikipedia would be better. The phrasing could also be better on some - what is "vandal insulting" and is this really as bad as copyright violations? Medical advice and Legal advice are in general good things to get - just not from Wikipedia. "Safety awareness" is also a Good Thing, as is our Wikipedia:Risk disclaimer to which it links. Thryduulf 18:24, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

I was also struck by the incongruous inclusion of medical/legal advice as a "Bad Thing". These are not a type of content to be isolated and excised from an article - merely broad disclaimers that the article is not provided to be used as advice. Anyway, this follows more generally from the idea that Wikipedia is provided as a reference, rather than to tell people what they should do. It would be very unfortunate if this policy guideline had the effect of intimidating some contributors out of providing all the information that they could regarding medical or legal issues.Mike Serfas 05:45, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

It's an interesting idea and I wouldn't want to delete it, but at the same time, it's not so important as to need including on dozens of policy pages. It's kind of pessimistic to organize all project space pages in terms of "Bad things". I think a "Policies" organizational template would be a lot more appropriate. --Cyde Weys 18:42, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

I would like to see it replaced with a category. It's too long-- look what it does to WP:IAR, for example. It's too negative. Ashibaka tock 22:09, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

• If we're going to keep it like this, can we make it {{hidden}} so it doesn't clutter up pages, at least? ~Kylu (u|t) 23:15, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

I'm not a fan of a list that intermingles policy, guidelines, and essays indiscriminantly, and if it does it really shouldn't be on each policy page (which state that the contents of that page - templates included - is policy). I like the idea behind it, however - would it be more appropriate as a userspace-only template? Or changed into a Wikipedia:Essay page? Ziggurat 23:19, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

Just a thought: Did anyone expect a template about "Bad Things" on Wikipedia to be anything other than negative? Attacking it for its purely "negative" tone is not valid, and betrays a shallow optimism about the things which occur on Wikipedia. Sure, a creation of a good things template might be just as good (and NPOV, heh :-D) --Knucmo2 23:22, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

On the contrary, the criticism of being "negative" includes criticism on its very name. Or was that too complicated? WP:NOT EVIL! --Francis Schonken 23:40, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

Anyway, for the time being, and getting the sense this needs more discussion, and that there's certainly no "policy-level" consensus to have the content of that template on all the affected policy pages (note that there are also some negative comments about the template on some of these policies' talk pages, not echoed here), I'm going to take a temporary "bold" step of making the noinclude tags on the template over-arch its complete content. Will make it invisible everywhere. I'll make a link to this discussion venue on the template, and copy the content of the current template's content here, by a "subst" on the template above, before the "noinclude" change.

So please continue the discussion here. For the list in the template we get the thrust, and if it changes dramatically we can again copy its content here. --Francis Schonken 23:40, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

A better name could be Wrong Things. This is a subset of Bad Things which is quite broad. Why Good Things, another POV? Two wrongs don't make a right. Not all items should be displayed. We can make it so only policies are allowed to be included. -- Zondor 23:59, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

Usually good things in themselves are not wrongs, they can cause wrongs, just as bad things in themselves may cause good. Yes, that would still be POV, but you misunderstood my little joke anyway. The question is, which do people need to be reminded of more? --Knucmo2 23:58, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

I agree. In policy pages we ought to further understanding of what is acceptable, not what is not. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 00:11, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

At the very least, it needs to be formatted so it terminates the lines underneath sections rather than chopping through them. Should also be hidden as a norm, since it's a rather large list. – Someguy0830 (Talk | contribs) 00:18, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

Bad Things is what might cause Incivility in people, though. Wrong Things at least should be toned down and less negative but violating censorship. My initial name would have thought to be 50 Sins of Wikipedia or 50 Commandments of Wikipedia. Hopefully, with the omission of non notable items, the list size can be reduced. However, whatever is wrong with Wikipedia should not be judged by what the POV list size it should be. -- Zondor 02:09, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

This template is pointless. Many things on the list are rephrased awkwardly to be negative, like "not being bold". What does making a huge list of Wikipedia policies and guidelines, all expressed confusingly in the negative, accomplish? We don't need a "Good Things" template either, as it'd just involve negating everything on that list. It doesn't need a different name, or different formatting, it just needs to be kept off of policy/guideline pages like any other large chunk of irrelevant text would be. rspeer / ɹəədsɹ 02:12, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

Agreed.--Sean Black ^(talk) 02:22, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

I still like it. It's just another way to teach people some important stuff about Wikipedia. I would like it better if it somehow led to constructive responses--how to avoid these problems, how to fix them, how to report them. But as a list it's not doing any harm. I agree it shouldn't be a template on all those pages though. · rodii · 03:22, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

The point of it is to try and keep everyone above par. You can do almost anything you like on Wikipedia but as a minimum requirement you should not do wrong things or bad things. Admittedly, this is a POV stance on how Wikipedia should be for the better. -- Zondor 03:54, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

Disagree: "Doing The Right Thing" (as Jimbo states it, see User:Jimbo Wales/Statement of principles, first point) can not be reduced to avoid doing the Bad/Wrong Thing. IMHO Jimbo's "at some ultimate, fundamental level, this is how Wikipedia will be run, period." applies to that first principle, including "Do The Right Thing", as much as to anything else on that Statement of Principles page. At least, I see no reason to change that. --Francis Schonken 08:48, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

The buck stops with Jimbo's POV. Consider this: A Right Thing to do for Wikipedians to do is to... avoid doing the Wrong Thing or avoid doing the Bad Thing. It also says: "Doing The Right Thing takes many forms", which can mean avoid doing the Wrong Thing. And also, "...perhaps most central is the preservation...", where the word preservation can mean maintain, protect, and prevent. These can mean to prevent decay, this is, to avoid people decaying doing the Right Things, that is, avoid people doing the Wrong Things to prevent that decay. -- Zondor 23:10, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

Think about it this way. Who's going to take the time to read a 51-entry list telling them all the things they shouldn't be doing? There's very little reason for this to be on any page because it's just going to confuse people. The templates currently on such pages links to related topics. This is all over the place in comparison. – Someguy0830 (Talk | contribs) 23:22, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

Not to sound too fluffy bunny about it, but wouldn't it be more productive to just encourage people to join in and help out and then point out (and help correct) mistakes when they occur? There are always going to be new things that we don't want people to do that nobody's thought of yet, and there'll be people who rules-lawyer by looking at the list and saying, "It's not there, so I can do it." I'd rather just focus on making more good editors, then you have more people helping to make the place better and mentoring others! :D ~Kylu (u|t) 00:16, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

If its not on the list, then you can do it or it should be changed as it is still a wiki template. On the contrary, you can grow more and better editors by having a good infrastructure like reminding people what wrong things you should not do. -- Zondor 06:00, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

Wikipedia is one of the world's biggest source of information and so naturally it can get pretty complex. No one is expected to read every single one right now, of course. When one refers to the NPOV policy page and is told POV as a wrong thing, what other wrong things I should be aware of? Well, this list of the side of this NPOV policy page will tell me. If it wasn't there, people will continue to do the wrong things and cause even more hassle for every one. So it is an important tool to remind people about it potentially saving lots of further trouble. It is advertising but one worth putting on project pages just like anti-smoking advertising campaigns. Perhaps, people don't care for doing the wrong thing and thus it is up to us to be more proactive to take on this preventative measure. -- Zondor 06:00, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

People will do the wrong things regardless of whether or not your massive list is present on every page. Also, as has been mentioned, they might nitpick and use it to bypass other rules by saying something isn't mentioned. You should encourage the good to foster good behavior, not remind people of the bad in the hopes they won't do it. – Someguy0830 (Talk | contribs) 06:56, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

This is one example of a personal attack, a wrong thing. So they should nitpick, and so they need to update the rules. Loopholes are found and fixed making the system of rules of better integrity. Wikipedia is openly editable and continually improving. Every mistake is learned from. Encouraging the good and not others sounds like a bureacracy for an elite and mob mentality ("(2) Newcomers are always to be welcomed."). -- Zondor 12:40, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

Two ideas:

1. Having a quick and handy reference list for things that can go wrong & how to address them, is a very good idea IMHO. Detail issues of what should be on such list, and under which name, should be addressed, but such issues are not the core of the idea. I think I can agree with Zondor on that. The current "list" that comes nearest to that idea, before Zondor's template, is probably Wikipedia:Template messages/User talk namespace#Grid of warnings. At least: I use that list/grid in that fashion. But it has many disadvantages (among others, not displaying the content of the several messages, so using the template messages "list" involves a lot of clicking). In that respect I still think Zondor's list is a great idea, it works much better than anything comparable before.
2. When we're on the point of changing wikipedia's current "paradigm" from Do The Right Thing to Avoid Doing The Bad/Wrong Thing, I can't agree in the least with Zondor. Not because of Jimbo's statement, but because that's genuinely the way I feel about this. So, if we can't have Zondor's handy list without provoking a paradigm shift in this sense (what seems part of Zondor's general idea behind it), I'd like to curteously decline the gift. That's where I stand. --Francis Schonken 13:15, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

Francis has eloquently summed up my feelings on this. The Grid of Warnings is exactly the tool I was comparing this to in my mind, and I have the same dissatisfaction with it. It's the "& how to address them" part that I find most important, and that's currently missing from the template. So: I like the list, I don't think it should be a template, and I think it should be treated as a skeleton to be fleshed out with help for editors. I dn't think it's that useful as "advice for newbie editors", for the reasons articulated in Francis's second point, but I do think it's potentially useful for users trying to figure out how to respond to problems. Some editors tend to focus on the creative, positive aspects of Wikipedia, and other on the negative--fixing problems or intervening in disputes. Both kinds are valuable, and resources for both kinds are useful. Let a hundred flowers bloom.
I think the only real Village Pump issue is whether this belongs as a template on 50-odd policy and guideline pages, and it seems to me the consensus is that it doesn't. But I think it's still a worthy project to pursue as a resource on its own. · rodii · 13:31, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

The Grid of Warnings is not a bad tool but there are some flaws. It trivialises the handling of Wrong Things. When one is given one of these warnings, it can come across as a personal attack, vandal insult, bad faith and causing incivility. You can have some comments to go along with it, but people don't want to be receiving any of these at all in the first place. Nonetheless, it is a useful tool for the most part. This tool is for a problem-reaction situation, a problem wrong thing is reacted to by slapping on a warning template. -- Zondor 04:49, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

50 Wrongs Things to do in Wikipedia is to prevent the problem from occurring altogether. Its purpose is not to tell you what you must do to fix it, it is trying to get you to understand a definite list of problems that exist in the Wikipedia world. The truth is out there. "You want the truth? You can't handle the truth." The outcome from this will result in more Wikipedians achieving enlightenment (like the Buddhism concept). -- Zondor 04:49, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

The critical reason why it is objected is because it is too intrusive coupled with a negative spin particularly as it is on the top of the page as a Disruption wrong thing. Would it be less intrusive if it was made flat and be put and the bottom of the page? Otherwise, would it be less intrusive if it was kept of the policy pages altogether? It needs a project page of its own anyway. It projects negativity and people don't like negativity and will try to minimise it. The NPOV policy page already has a list of its own without but any negativity. -- Zondor 04:49, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

Policy/Guideline boilerplate

There's currently a debate about whether or not the {{Policy}} or {{Guideline}} templates should have "feel free to edit this ..." in them. Please see some of the older discussion at Template talk:Guideline, and let's centralize the discussion at Template talk:Policy. This was also posted at WP:RFC/POLICIES. —Locke Cole • t • c 21:40, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

Please continue discussion on this topic at Template talk:Policy. Related comments can be viewed at Template talk:Guideline.

The issue is whether users should be advised to "free free" and "be bold" when editing policies and guidelines. Discussions are taking place at Template talk:Policy and Template talk:Guideline. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 21:47, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

No, discussion should take place at Template talk:Policy. We do not need ForestFires. —Locke Cole • t • c 22:12, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

You started the discussion at Template talk:Guideline and so it has been taking place on both talk pages. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 22:20, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

Template talk:Guideline notes that the discussion should be centralized. I reworded it to note the related comments on that talk page. – Someguy0830 (Talk | contribs) 22:23, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

About commercial product

I wonder if each commercial product around may have a page in the wikipedia, now? Is it the new rule? And what about links to commercial products, I found lots or rules in the current policy that forbid them in my mind, but when I remove a such link, I am objected there is not reason to remove a link to a commercial product. This should be more clearly stated. Spankman 17:55, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

In general, pages on commercial products that aren't notable will probably be looking at a trash bin. If most people haven't heard of it, or if there's not enough material for a full page, then it would probably get deleted. Articles on notable commercial products are allowed to stay, of course.

Links to external commercial sites are a totally different issue. See Wikipedia:External links. Don't link to them if there's a good free equivalent available, but sometimes they're fine (such as when the article subject's official website is commercial). —Simetrical (talk • contribs) 03:07, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

Other than the guidelines for autobiographies (which I've been trying to apply) are there any guidelines for commercial entities editing/starting articles on their own (notable) articles? I've got a few company-written entries (like Privasign) which, while startlingly NPOV for what I consider a PR-article, still make me not quite comfortable. If there's no policy in place (which I doubt), should there be?

~Kylu (u|t) 03:44, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

I once put up a custom template message[13] on an article that was clearly PR-written. It's best to note these things up front, I think, until neutral editors can look the article over. —Simetrical (talk • contribs) 22:41, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

Their fans/customers should write these articles - like i did for Yahoo!_Avatars. Akidd dublin•tl•ctr-l 16:23, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

AfD

I've had an interesting time lately visiting and participating in the AfD pages here. What I've seen is an attitude that "being interesting to read" is not a reason to keep. Okay. I'm sincerely interested in knowing though - what is a reason? People have said, "being encyclopedic". Okay. That term gets tossed around so much in here that I'm interested in knowing how people define it. When I look up "encyclopedia" in, say, this encyclopedia, it tells me that an encyclopedia is a tool for disseminating knowledge and understanding about a topic. Nothing more, nothing less. So, since I've been ridiculed in AfD discussions for my stated opinion that something should be kept because it's interesting, I'd like to know (here or maybe on my Talk page) what people think is encyclopedic. I'd like some more help in understanding the Wikipedia community consensus on what belongs here. Because my attitude leans more toward "keep it unless you have a good reason to delete it" or can at least demonstrate some harm in it being here. But the community attitude, at least those who frequent AfD discussions, seems to be the inverse. Aguerriero (ţ) (ć) (ë) 21:25, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

Could you give some specific examples where people use "being encyclopedic"? The most fundamental arguments about whether to keep an article or not usually revolve around WP:V, WP:OR, and WP:NPOV, and it's possible that they're using a general description to indicate implicitly that one of those aren't being followed. Ziggurat 21:43, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

Okay, an example would be this recent AfD. I read the nomination, then read the article. I ended up spending a while reading it, going, "Hm, that's interesting," clicking links, viewing other topics, etc. When I went back to the AfD page, I commented.. well, you can see what I commented. It was interesting. It made a good read. I learned something. In other words, information and understanding were disseminated, thus at least fulfilling the classic definition of an encyclopedia. As you can see, ensuing comments were quite critical of my assessment, as well as making the point that the article isn't "encyclopedic" and being interesting just isn't enough. So, I am here seeking enlightenment, because I am genuinely interested in contributing new articles to Wikipedia, and have done so. Only, I don't want to waste my time if I am missing some fundamental aspect of what belongs here. Aguerriero (ţ) (ć) (ë) 22:28, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

Being interesting isn't always enough. I have to agree with their assessment. As much as someone may want to know how many fictional characters won some medal, in the end you just have a list will never be complete and doesn't actually give any useful information. – Someguy0830 (Talk | contribs) 22:39, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

Again, why isn't it enough? It may seem like semantics, but.. I have to say that my thought process behind creating an article is either, "it would be interesting" or "someone might want to know it". If that is fundamentally incorrect, I'd like to understand why. Because I may just be in the wrong place. Aguerriero (ţ) (ć) (ë) 22:50, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

Lists are a bit of a tricky subject - some people feel that they're unnecessary navigational clutter, and so there should be a reason why they need to be organised in this fashion if the list is to remain (and not be WP:OR). In this case, I'd have to ask whether you thought the article itself was interesting, or if the articles it linked to were interesting instead, because it would seem to me that there's a difference. Ziggurat 22:40, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

Point taken, and maybe a list isn't the best example. I thought the list was interesting. I personally couldn't care less who has won an actual Medal of Honor, but I am interested in the phenomenon of it being awarded to so many fictional characters because it says certain things about American values in film and war films in general. I guess in the end, there may be no hard and fast rule... so people can be consensus-builders or they can be Mary Contrary. Maybe my understanding will need to be that there IS no understanding. Aguerriero (ţ) (ć) (ë) 22:50, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

Just to put in my two cents, I've read Wikipedia:Deletion policy thoroughly, and there does not seem to be a consensus on this type of thing. WP:NOT comes closest with "Wikipedia is not a collection of indiscriminant information", but there is no specific guideline on articles that may be interesting to some, but worthless to others. Wikipedia:Listcruft is cited repeatedly on Afds, but there has been no consensus reached on that, so it is not policy (or so I understand). Some articles would obviously not be encyclopedic (e.g. List of times beer has been mentioned on Cheers), but others, such as the one mentioned above, are more borderline. Maybe we need an official policy, if that's possible. --Joelmills 02:43, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

In general, the policy on AFDs is "whatever is decided by the people who show up goes", i.e., it's mostly a vote (much though perhaps it shouldn't be). In my opinion, this leads to elitism, systemic bias, and a worse encyclopedia, but that's just me. I have no problem with the existence of the article you mentioned (as I have now indicated on the article's AFD page). —Simetrical (talk • contribs) 03:21, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

That is now my understanding as well, and I agree with your points. Sometimes the bias seems to be on an important scale; other times, not. Sometimes this bias is as simple as, "I don't think this information is useful, therefore it doesn't belong here." and I have a real problem with that attitude. So for now, my solution is just going to be to advocate for what believe makes a good encyclopedia. Aguerriero (ţ) (ć) (ë) 03:44, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

Now i understand that not only search engine counts do matter, also if it has been used academically, published to print media or television. Otherwise it is underground, and un-encyclopedic. More, even if it has been used/occured in the past, this looks encyclopedic itself (documentating something). Some newspaper person, or university guy "must have defined it/mentioned it" forehand, to be fully encyclopedic? Akidd dublin•tl•ctr-l 15:25, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

On trivia sections

In my daily sojourns through Wikipedia, I see many, many trivia sections, on things that one wouldn't expect to have any sort of trivia related to. Say, Condoleezza Rice, Shin-Ra, and such. Should Wikipedia be a nexus for trivia? Large amounts of it is from substandard sources(tabloid, I look upon thee), of no use to one that would visit this site for information(not many people need the fact that the lead singer of some band served on the Committee in Solidarity with the People of El Salvador. If you need more, search for trivia. Now, the page on trivia is nice and important, but the good 19,000 pages behind it are probably not so. We wish to be a center of information on the internet, yes, but is that really necessary? Curuinor 03:42, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

Mm, I've personally run to Wikipedia to source some obscure rumor (Daddy Long-legs venom comes to mind) or trivia that I've wished to debunk or confirm before. I'd like to suggest that, as long as the trivia has a verifiable source, is interesting, and pertinent to the article in question... why not? When I'm looking for information on a subject, I have two resources that I go to first: Wikipedia and Google. If neither of those knows, then it probably either doesn't exist or isn't worth knowing. (bias!) ~Kylu (u|t) 04:46, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

I've found that "Trivia" in most articles is not really trivia in the classic sense of being obscure or unimportant. It's more frequently used as a repository for "stuff that didn't fit under any of the headings". In either case, it's likely worth something to people reading the article. If I had the tenacity to get the bottom of the Condoleeza Rice article, I'd probably appreciate the trivia. Aguerriero (ţ) (ć) (ë) 04:59, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

Wikipedia:trivia (and it's talk page & archives) might serve as an inspiration for your current attempt to solve the issue. --Francis Schonken 09:03, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

I normally am laid back...however, on the issue of Trivia smoke comes out of my ears. Not only is it un-encyclopedic, but if the info doesn't fit into any of the headers, then the headers should be changed. Usually, I find that the facts under Trivia can be incorporated into the article. --Osbus 23:35, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

Trivia = bad idea. In fact, I've been removing any trivia I see from the articles I edit (actor-related, where Trivia is most common). Trivia is inherently un-encyclopedic. A piece of info either belongs in the article - as in, IN the article - or it doesn't belong at all Mad Jack O'Lantern 07:08, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

I agree with this. While I do think that a small amount trivia can be appropriate in some cases (10 or so popular culture references, 20 at the most), it's really out of hand in some articles. For example, the List of Foster's Home for Imaginary Friends episodes articles has a riciulous amount of trivia, but my natural tendancy to include things keeps me from deleting it outright. – Someguy0830 (Talk | contribs) 07:15, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

When it comes to trivia, shoot first and ask questions later. :) Mad Jack O'Lantern 07:17, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

I'm surprised to read this. Usually I'm delighted that the factoids in a Trivia section are in no other section. Usually I think they deserve deletion, but of course deleting them would offend those WP editors who are so fond of writing them, and would be termed "elitist" or whatever.

Look at Citizen Kane. It's an odd mishmash of good information about the movie and discredited claims about it. (No editor seems to have read and digested Carringer's The Making of "Citizen Kane", perhaps because it's only been available for two decades.) Not really bad, but not good either. Now look at List of references to Citizen Kane in other work (i.e. just one trivia spin-off): a lovingly compiled list of other shows' feeble writing, which ends "This list is incomplete; you can help by expanding it": I'm inclined to rephrase that as "This list is depressing; you can help by deleting it." Still, if this ghastly list has to exist somewhere, it's good that it's other than in the main article.

Back to Rice. Her significance is, I suppose, in being the Secretary of State of the great nation that Leads the Free World. (No laughing in the back, please.) So, she likes the Beatles. To me, that's utterly uninteresting. (And unsurprising, too. What would surprise me is if Dubya had appointed somebody who talked publically about her cerebral tastes.) It's trivial. It merits a sentence, or even a paragraph, in a book-length biography. An encyclopedia article can skip it. -- Hoary 07:23, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

No problem with listing hobbies/interest of people - but under the "Personal life" section. I could see it as being interesting to people, but it should be presented in an encylocpedic sentence format, and not point form, that's all. Mad Jack O'Lantern 07:32, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

I agree that there is far, far too much of this and no-one seems to attempt to impose editorial control. A list of fifty pop-culture references to something is not a valid part of an encyclopedia article, but simply a set of notes, most of which deserve to be filed in the bin. Bhoeble 03:28, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

The root problem is that many editors just want to add a quick 1-sentence factoid, and the trivia section is a natural place to do that. And presumably, given the immense popularity of trivia and anything that reduces information to quick, tidy lists, people love reading trivia too. But for an encyclopedia it's not so great. I cleaned out a trivia section on an article about 2 weeks ago, and already people have recreated a trivia section and added 5 new items. The best solution is to integrate trivia stuff into the article, if it's meaningful. I've advocated (half-seriously) a WikiTrivia... it actually might not be a bad idea. --W.marsh 15:28, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

I'm surprised at the number of people who see trivia sections as a problem. I say they're only a problem if they grow to excessive length, and otherwise, a welcome addition of interesting facts. 207.176.159.90 23:21, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

The practice of Ostracism

From the deep, dark and dank quarters of the Wikimedia dungeon guards comes the practice of Ostracism. Read more at: A proposal to add Ostracism to the official list of Wikimedia philosophies -- PCE 14:48, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

Wikipedia/medical research

Forgive if this has been answered before. I have a chronic disease (multiple sclerosis). As most such diseases, for which neither cause nor cure has been identified, there are far flung research efforts. The Wikipedia article on ms is among the best I have read but...it ends far too soon. Could the site not serve a acute need by helping researchers from different disciplines/with differing theories, work together to map out where there are common or supportive findings through an iterative and corrective process. Example (a real one). An experimental drug is thought to impact on animal version of MS by inhibiting T-cell function/dampening the immune system. It is however, found to work by actally increasing a certain kind of immune cells known as "regulatory natural killer cells"...which proliferate in certain conditions...including pregnancy....while across the world...researchers are looking at hormone estriol, produced during pregnancy and believed to be reason that MS exacerbations normally decrease during third trimester. I'm not a scientist (obviously) jsut frustrated that these million points of reference don't seem to ever move closer together to illumination. I know wikipedia is an encyclopedia, but couldn't the MS pages be, not extended, but expanded by subpages to allow for this kind of review?

The Wikipedia talk pages go a very long way toward meeting this goal but special pages such as the reference desk for mathematics seem to concentrate and focus participation. Perhaps a medical reference desk would server the same purpose but I don't know who to ask about creating such a desk. You are probably in the right place. -- PCE 18:51, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

You couldn't have discussions in articles, because of WP:NOR, but it would be nice if Wikipedia could facilitate something good like this. Runcorn 19:50, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

Not really something wikipedia can do. You might be able to get something like that into wikibooks but I doubt there is much point. There will be plently of ways the researches can and will share information if they want to. As for informing the public science by press release is a bad idea.Geni 04:19, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

Maybe someone could start a Wikimedia project in that regard? -Freekee 05:00, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

Proposed expert editors guideline; 2nd notice

Excuse me if a "2nd notice" is inappropriate. However, the proposed guideline Wikipedia:Expert editors has been fleshed out after much comment and participation, and we are now formally inviting further comment on it's talk page before putting it up for a vote. Thanks~ --EngineerScotty 21:14, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

Didn't know it was there, thanks for the notice! ~Kylu (u|t) 04:38, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

Wikipedia talk:Survey Notification (formerly Vote stacking)

The discussion and the development of the proposal could benefit from some more input. Шизомби 06:10, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

Move count restriction.

I found this, which suggests this was a prefunctorily discussed temporary measure, and yet it's been a year and it's still not even documented. Is this weird, or am I just on crack? -Dan 07:24, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

Well, WoW seems to have moved on (no pun intended) for the most part, so people have stopped worrying so much about page move vandalism. New users are still unable to move pages until their accounts are more than ... I believe ... 4 days old, which seems to have been an effective deterent. Nonetheless, I just came across a very mild page move vandal today (so mild that there wasn't even grounds to block him), but I think the new user restriction does enough--I'm not sure there needs to be an edit count restriction. AmiDaniel (Talk) 08:32, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

If move vandalism is not a concern, is there any talk of reversing this? Also, are you sure it's 4 days? I would like to (finally, a year later) document this, but the page I cited implies it's 1% of recent accounts, not that I'm even quite clear on what that means. Is there another page discussing this that I missed? -Dan 08:47, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

I think its the most recent 1% of all accounts. It certainly meant you had to be dedicated to do page move vandalism and also the predictable naming style of everyones favorite pagemove vandal meant that many of his accounts where permanently blocked before he could acutally use them. I suspect if there is any discussion on this at all it was probablly on one of the mailing lists since thats where the developers/server admins (not the wiki "sysops") hang out. Plugwash 21:16, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

Actually, I think it was once 1%, and then it changed to 4 days. Or 3. I don't know; documentation would be great, wouldn't it? Melchoir 21:42, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

vandalism vs. edit mistake

Consider this:
I have added to an article, called Red hair.
It was a tiny section called ==Nicknames==, including "tomato" (for which evidence of usage exists).
It was called vandalism.
See the Matrix_(IT) article. My edits were reverted, and also called vandalism.

I believe it is called "edit mistake".
"Vandalism" is something different, removing information, or pure profanity.
I do not believe, that adding data is vandalism.
Now i am going to discuss edit plans on the talk pages.
Others are just editing, see Red_hair, removing templates without saying anything.
I believe it requires a different template.
Especially for users which do have an userpage.
There are also real cases of vandalism (removing information, adding profanity).
I find the (template) usage threatening, especially to cover a different POV.
I find data removal quite inpolite. I can do this myself, if someone asks me to review an edit.
The template messages:

• "It looks you just made an edit mistake in the article ... , because ..."
  
• "The edit you just performed on the article ... needs review/undo, because ..."
  

I do not like to take my edits get called "vandalism". Akidd dublin•tl•ctr-l 12:34, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

Hello. Some editors do over use the word "vandalism" when making changes, and it's understandable not liking it. WP:VAND has the policy on vandalism, if you feel an edit has been unjustly described, it might be worth politely pointing out WP:VAND#What_vandalism_is_not to the other editor, as mistakes do happen, and we are not supposed to bite new editors.

However, because of the nature of wikipedia, there will always be cases where your edits are removed/edited/etc, it is important not to take this personally, everyone is trying to improve the article, and if you disagree, the first step is to have a quick word with the other editor, either on their talk page or on the article talk page. It's important not to be confrontational, a polite request to ask why they thought so will go a long way. Regards, MartinRe 12:53, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

You're quite correct - the abuse of this term is offensive to the well-meaning editors, implying a value judgement of both your contribution, which may be legitimate, and a judgement of your intentions and character, which is a leap to conclusions that they shouldn't make. I've talked to users who were banned before just to find it was a big misunderstanding. More people should reach out to new users before labelling them. Deco 14:04, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

I see it above my power to create such a template. I am already a year or so on wikipedia, went through OR debate for parental advisory. I do not believe this article has anything to do with vandalism, or i am interested to create any of it. It is not WP:POINT. WP:NOR, vandalism and WP:POINT. It takes a while to understand this. Akidd dublin•tl•ctr-l 14:18, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

I've had a similar experience with Wiktionary sysops who can arbitrarily judge an accidental spelling mistake resulting from the speed typing of an external link to a Wikipedia article from the Wiktionary (instead of using the "w:" shortcut - a common mistake for nubees) to be intentional malicious Spam (Adding inappropriate external links for advertisement and/or self promotion.) on the part of a contributor, especially after winning a recent arguement with any sysop on some other issue. -- PCE 15:12, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

[14] I do not see this advertisement. Aztec_Calendar, Superstition.

My pages get other hits, and at some point i loose the interest in wikipedia. I see these articles too much stricken to NPOV/OR, and with intellectual requirement. I do not have these needs. Of course they are bias', especially how they combine other information.

I am neither a friend of traditional school education. This does not belong here. If i drop wikipedia, then i would have to delete 10's of megabytes of technical articles. I can not do that. Spam is generally a malicious thing. I do not see my aztec calendar table a spam piece, or useless/pointless for research project.

Probably i should make this reply an other section. Probably i just do not see the picture of wikipedia, what it really is for several established editors, by its policies, or what it could be. There are articles kept in questionable style transformer. Personally, i never would have uploaded such images. Probably i am really misunderstanding things, even if i read many policies recently. I do not find much real superstitions in the article superstition, but abstract intellectual explanation.

My efforts for the Red_hair article were moderate successful: some passages have disappeared overnight. Probably in later years, wikipedia contains article versions from a different intellectual point (like simple wikipedia already exists).

I understand the principal requirement for the external links policies.

I want different versions of one and the same article, once it has gained a certain size. User:Akidd_dublin 7th May 2006

this was result of one day hours chanting with Afd articles. I am doing something different now (than Afd), for a while. I had a sad feeling (policies are not always applied immediately). Akidd dublin•tl•ctr-l 08:24, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

Please don't feel anyone's chasing you out, Akidd! I know we're on opposite sides of one debate, but you're trying to do what you think is right, which would make it a loss if you gave up on AfD. :( ~Kylu (u|t) 00:08, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

Notability of an article

Now, i have discussed an article which gets around 500 hits (yahoo). Another one is not known if it gets undeleted, in spite of 420,000 hits (yahoo!), 724,000 hits (google).
"What is called noteable"? What is going on does not look WP:NPOV. Especially if it stays blocked, lot of people can actually see it at 1st rank of search results.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Akidd dublin (talk • contribs)

Don't cite NPOV - that only applies to article content. "Notable" is a qualitative article inclusion criterion defined by consensus among editors. In short, something is notable if it seems reasonable that lots of people would care about it. See Wikipedia:Notability for more. The Google test is objective, but not 100% reliable - it should always be taken with a grain of salt (see Wikipedia:Google test). Deco 14:51, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

In my experience, Google can convince people on AfD that something is non-notable, but it often cannot convince people that something is notable. Deco's link, Wikipedia:Notability, is the place to learn about that. Melchoir 21:46, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

You don't mention what article that is... I find, myself, personally, that I place much more weight on hit counts in Google Books and/or Google Groups (USENET), because in the case of Books it is hard for self-promoters to inflate totals via "search engine optimization" techniques, and in the case of Groups it wouldn't be hard to do this but nobody bothers to do it. For me... speaking solely for myself... fifty relevant hit in Google Books is very convincing, and so is five hundred hits in Google Groups. Normally Google Groups will get 1/4 to 1/10 as many hits as a Google Web search on the identical search string. Sometimes, though, you'll see 200,000 Web hits and only 100 Groups hits and that's a good sign the Web hits are not what they seem. Dpbsmith (talk) 16:35, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

Coming from yahoo! groups, about japan celebrities, i do not think they are a direct measure. There are cases with just one group about a perticiualary VIP person. To spell the truth, the largest group are about a few sports. Complicated topics have a few tiny groups in the best case. They do not have any restriction on NPOV etc. However yahoo! groups search is just parsing what the creators write (TOC). It often contains a specific you know what similar to web page search. If there are noteable groups for a celebrity on yahoo!, it is evidence they are international known and poular as well.

I do not know how google groups are searched for their content...sure it is some sort of sign, but one should not compare it with web page hits, which count sub-pages of one and the same address. Group search results do not say that webpage results are inflated. I.e. try spiders on yahoo groups vs web search for the term) - a popular known thing...

I tried google for spiders: web-23.7mi groups-412,000 -> 1/50. It is a different system than yahoo! groups. they are blocked as chat by a filter software...

Probably it makes sense to list the ratio in a table for a few popular words (preferable science terms), compare to sports etc. Looks a piece of research on the internet itself.User:Akidd_dublin 8th may 2006

Historical Characters in Fiction

I'd like to propose a policy guidline that characters in fictional works that are identical to real historical figures e.g. I contend that Gaius_Julius_Caesar_(Character_of_Rome) and Nicolas_Flamel_(Harry_Potter) shouldn't be separate pages from Julius Caesar and Nicolas Flamel. A sensible guideline would be to presume that characters with identical names to historical figures are identical and that an argument for significant difference must be made to justify a separate page. Small differences should be included on the historical page under a Literary Portrayals heading. Nick 04:56, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

There are quite a lot of portrayals of Julius Caesar, and if I had gone to the (already long) article for historical info, I wouldn't want it cluttered up with details of the HBO/BBC2 or Shakespeare character. Best keep them separate, IMO. --Squiddy | (squirt ink?) 08:31, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

But it's worse for the most famous characters. If we don't do this we're asking for an infinite list of stubs with titles like like Gaius Julius Caesar (William Shakespeare character), Gaius Julius Caesar (Colleen McCullough character) and Augustus (Robert Graves character)! More sensible than a proliferation of stubs would be pages that summarise the divergences from history (or strange interpretations of history for Robert Graves). So there would be just a few pages with names like Historical accuracy of Rome (TV series), Historical characters in Shakespeare's Julius Caesar and Historical accuracy of I, Claudius. Nick 14:57, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

If there are reputable sources giving info on the historical accuracy of the Rome series, that could make a good addition to the Rome (series) page. I just don't think the main Caesar article would benefit from a lot of TV trivia, nor that the real Flamel and the Harry Potter Flamel should be covered in the same place. Readers of one may not be interested in the other, so a link between them is the best solution to allow people to read either or both as they choose. --Squiddy | (squirt ink?) 15:22, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

Including fictional accounts of historical people in the main article on the person is an absolutely horrible idea. The example of Julius Caesar is about the most obvious reason why it's a horrible idea. SchmuckyTheCat 17:47, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

Why not make a Gaius Julius Caesar in fiction article, which can summarize all the details for each different depiction? The main article for the historical figure need only mention the most notable portrayals (such as in Shakespeare), and link to the separate fiction page. Postdlf 17:53, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

I'd also like to suggest that these descriptions of the fictional characters should incorporate relevant history by reference rather than repeating it ("the novel depicts Caesar's campaign in Gaul from beginning to end"), and only go into detail in how the fictional portrayal diverges from the historical facts. Postdlf 17:58, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

Postdlf's suggestion is eminently sensible. Runcorn 20:07, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

1970s - Accusations of hype and inaccuracy

Wikipedia's 1970s section and references to the decade elsewhere are attracting adverse comment - there are several articles like this around - http://70struth.blogspot.com/2006/04/wikipedia-inaccurate-1970s-section.html . Please can contributors ensure that the 1970s section does not detract from the historical realities of that and other decades, and that all references to the 1970s elsewhere are justified and not just examples of the writer's own personal enthusiasm for the decade? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.122.123.54 (talk)

Biography, external link, commercial style articles

I experienced my links deleted Aztec_Calendar, Superstition.
There was nothing commercial (on my pages), just plain html.
Probably this editors should verify these articles (i found them while browsing 1000's of articles):
If this (below) gets through, i do not see a point removing my information about superstition (of course it has a side effect of self promotion). It is not selling anything on this page.

Core_Energetics
Real_Social_Dynamics probably they have gained local media attention.

I do not have an opinion about this stuff. However, even if wikipedia is not a democracy, 1. all sort of advert gets removed, 2. if it is useful/interesting for the public, then it is allowed (under circumstances).

I see it related to here, how policies are interpreted. Quick spelling of spam made me feel sad, i believe this labels to unrelated to mass-email. I do not believe the calendar table is unrelated. The policy (external links) does not allow to add own sites, i have read it. Akidd dublin•tl•ctr-l 08:19, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

Campaign to force the use of honorifics

I believe certain users connected with Wikipedia:WikiProject Peerage have been trying to force the use of honorifics (i.e. The Most Noble, The Most Honourable, The Right Honourable, His Serene Highness) despite an agreement not to do this these using various sock puppet accounts, the most blatant seeming to be Special:Contributions/Le_baron which has repeatedly ignored requests to stop. I strongly object to the use of these as it makes Wikipedia look overtly title-obsessed when no other mainstream encyclopedia or biographical dictionary uses these. Arniep 11:31, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

It makes no difference whether edits made by socks or not - What is the official policy on this? Giano | talk 11:44, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

The "guideline" is not to use them inline, i.e. before the name (consensus was that they shouldn't be used in the header of the article at all). The "Le baron" account has continued to go against the guideline despite being asked to stop numerous times and has completely ignored messages relating to that on their talk page. This is just unbelievable arrogance and is a completely unacceptable way to behave. Arniep 12:11, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

Agree with all this. He's also adding postnominals such as degrees. In general, we only add postnoms relating to honours and memberships of learned societies, as is common practice elsewhere. -- Necrothesp 12:21, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

• I see. So Le Barons actions are edits are completely contrary to the very prolonged and thorough discussions which took place here [15] and led to the consensus and conclusion here [16] following which the guidelines and policy explained here [17] . Members of the Wikipedia:WikiProject Peerage were involved in all stages of the consensus arrived at. So don't see the problem here, if after it has been explained to Le Baron that his is a editing contrary to policy, he still continues, then the answer is to to simply prevent him editing at all. If he is a "sock" then a "check user" will answer that question too. Giano | talk 12:26, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

Well sock puppet checks can't always tell if they are the same person, just whether they use the same internet connection. I think that person knows who they are so I would ask them to revert their changes if they have any respect for Wikipedia whatsoever. Arniep 12:35, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

I suggest this issue be taken to WP:ANI which is a more appropriate place to discuss this. JoshuaZ 12:36, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

I have done this already with no response here. I thought it appropriate to bring the issue here as I wanted to clarify whether the current guidelines have broad community support. Arniep 12:39, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

I don't know what well-known user it is you refer to, but I'll certainly be happy to block the sock, per Giano, if it continues this pathetic campaign after now being amply warned. Incidentally, I note from the bad punctuation edits today that it doesn't understand comma logic, either. (I'm hesitant to simply revert those, though, as I'm not sure the original punctuation was standard MoS, either. The original WAS logical, though, so perhaps a MoS comma buff could have a look.) Bishonen | talk 13:19, 8 May 2006 (UTC).

It could be that it is not a sockpuppet, but my main reason for bringing the issue to this page is to clarify whether the wider community agrees with the guidelines. Arniep 13:52, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

I'm not at all sure that I'm the wider community, but to me the "serene highness" folderol belongs to Freedonia. (Alas in reality it seems to belong more to "micronation" nitwits and the like.) Let's aim for a higher signal/noise ration -- and this stuff is just noise, so cut it. -- Hoary (Lord Low Poobah) 14:24, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

Actually, it belongs to many very respectable and genuine European royal families, but that's beside the point. It's been decided that it shouldn't be included, so it shouldn't. -- Necrothesp 16:03, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

I was reluctant to see him blocked, initially, since he's doing some at least quasi-useful addition of post-nominal letters as well, but he's been warned three or four times that he's violating guidelines and standing into danger, and except for one comment on Necrothesp's talk page, has remained incommunicando. If it takes a block to get his attention, so be it. Choess 18:13, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

Well, I went through a lot to get those guidelines adopted, and so did a number of WP:PEER participants. I'm frankly offended that you assume someone is resorting to sockpuppets to push this sort of thing through. Assume good faith and all that. I investigated Le_baron with CheckUser and found nothing to link him with any known WP:PEER participant. You ought to apologize. Mackensen (talk) 15:53, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

As I said, I suspected checkuser wouldn't show anything. I do think that it was inappropriate for you to check when I had indicated someone involved in the project may be the perpretrator given your involvement in that project. Arniep 17:11, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

In other words, no amount of technical evidence to the contrary will overcome your belief that somehow a member of Wikiproject Peerage is behind this. I call that a witchunt, and a ridiculous one at that. Mackensen (talk) 17:41, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

Somebody needs a nice tall glass of WP:AGF and a little less paranoia. Choess 18:13, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

Admittedly I shouldn't have pointed the finger, and I apologize for doing that. The fact is, someone, whoever it is, made hundreds of edits that needed reverting and we really need to ask the question why this person had not been stopped a lot earlier (they have been warned for nearly two months). Arniep 19:19, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

OK. Well, I probably have to accept the blame for some of that, as one of the people who warned him and then didn't follow up. He's also been quiet, as opposed to actually arguing about the policy, and that probably helped him fly under the radar. Anyway, if he's blocked, I'm willing to help revert honorifics in the articles he touched. (Unfortunately, there are enough constructive edits in there that it would be unwise to just do a mass rollback.) However, his edits have raised some policy issues that should be clarified:

• User:Necrothesp has indicated that it is common practice to include the rank of certain higher officers in the first line. We should formalize this (and whether or not the rank is linked), and add it to guidelines.
• What post-nominals should we *not* use? I understand that professional degrees, memberships in learned societies (except the Royal Society), etc., and Knighthoods of St. John should be omitted. Le baron has also been adding a postnominal "RN" for Royal Navy captains; is this necessary? (I rather doubt it — RN Captains rank high enough to fall under Necrothesp's guidelines, AIUI, whereas army captains don't, which removes the need for disambiguation.)

If we can settle these points, I'm ready to start reversing the damage. Choess 19:55, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

I believe that we should adopt a policy of including ranks of Major, Lieutenant-Commander and Squadron Leader and higher before the name, but only where the person actually commonly uses them (e.g. many reserve/war substantive officers do not), and not linking them. They should be linked later in the text. As far as postnoms are concerned, we should include honours and decorations, fellowships of major learned societies, PC (which is commonly used for commoners as well as peers to indicate membership of the Privy Council, although I have been disagreed with on this) and QC/KC. I'm undecided about Knighthoods etc of St John, which are awarded by the Sovereign and gazetted in the London Gazette. I do not believe we should include degrees, membership of lesser societies, or abbreviations for services (RN, RNR, RE etc), which are frequently inaccurate and are not appropriate following retirement anyway. This is all my personal opinion, of course. -- Necrothesp 22:11, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

This is kind of ridiculous. It's hard to be NPOV when you're using outrageous honorifics to describe something. It cuts both ways - I don't want to be hearing "The Honorable" and I also don't want to be hearing "peace be upon him". --Cyde Weys 17:13, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

I think that's rather a stretch, like claiming that saying "Bless you!" when someone sneezes means one believes or is inclined to believe that the other's soul is in danger of being ejected. It's just sort of a shibboleth: I think many more people have referred to The Right Honourable Charles Mohun, 4th Baron Mohun than have actually believed him honourable. That said, I don't think it's necessary to tack these onto every peer, any more than we need to explain the origins of the title "marquess" at the page of every marquess. Choess 18:13, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

Wikipedia policy is quite clear, and has been since last August, when after a consensus vote the MoS was adopted to reflect the policy. Styles like Right Honourable, Holiness, Majesty etc aren't used. The are shown in infoboxes in the test that list the relevant style of an office holder, whether a pope, a prime minister or a president. Any use (not description) of styles are removed on sight. The infobox solution was the consensus agreed which satisfied both disapproved of style usage and those who promoted it. Stating in an infobox that 'x' is styled such and such is NPOV. Writing His Holiness, Pope Benedict XVI, Her Majesty, Queen Fabiola etc is not. All sides agreed on the consensus and agreed on how and where the infobox would contain and where they would be located. Given that they are used, mentioning them (whether one approves of them or not) is a requirement of NPOV. Using them crosses the line and is unacceptable. FearÉIREANN\^(caint) 19:14, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

• Forget socks, non socks and Machiavelli. Let's concemtrate on the issue which is that we have a policy. This user is openly flouting it and ignoring it. He has clearly decided to ignore, or even discuss, warnings. So he has a simple choice, either adhere to policy, attempt through the proper channels to change policy or be banned. He decides. An admin should explain that on his talk page, and the next time he breaks policy ban him. Giano | talk 20:31, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

• The most important thing the CheckUser learnt IMHO is that if Arniep had seen the "Peerage" wikipedians as his friends rather than his enemies from the outset, there would maybe have been less of a problem.
• Re. Giano's "Let's concemtrate on the issue which is that we have a policy", nay, not exactly, we have a *guideline* (Wikipedia:Manual of Style (biographies)), that has in bold in the intro: "Writers are not expected or required to follow all or any of these rules"... (Didn't see another guideline or policy that contains the actual formulation of how the honorifics are dealt with in article text).
• If editors like "Le Baron" stay recalcitrant, they may and will be blocked (editors have been blocked for smaller offenses), the point I try to make is that the basis for such block is -currently- rather narrow. This didn't, nor shouldn't, stop admins from blocking where appropriate. But I started wikipedia:semi-bots some time ago, which would cover the Le Baron case, under the present formulation of "repetitive edits on various articles that are not covered by broad consensus". Maybe time to move WP:SBOTS up from proposal to guideline, while it provides a basis for handling such issues? It is -currently- also the only guideline (proposal) I know of, that would provide a basis for making an editor undo contentious edits on several articles (which Arniep asked, and which would maybe be something more constructive than only "making the editor stop doing this type of edits" - leaving the cleanup for other wikipedians) --Francis Schonken 08:10, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

Picture on this page

The Village pump?

The picture illustrating the "Village pump" on this page, appears to be a well. Correction: looking at the image description it's actually a bathing pool fed from a hot spring; but the point remains. It's not a pump, or the result of pumping. Jooler 13:26, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

OK, I have a very simple solution. Just rename the page Wikipedia:Village bathing pool fed from a hot spring to adjust the pagename to the illustration. Shortcut (for the policy section): WP:VBPFFAHS(P). Tupsharru 14:57, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

How about Wikipedia:Village women's shoe that has medium or high heels and no fastenings Dpbsmith (talk) 16:30, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

But then we would have to change the picture. Tupsharru 17:58, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

Village pump is a well...it's a water pump. And NO, we are not changing the image to a shoe. --Osbus 20:56, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

Particulaly when the image is clearly profession the uploader has only and hadful of edits and for some reason the image contians no metadata whatsoever.Geni 21:07, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

Can we now scroll pictures here, to illuminate smt. graphically? village pump illustrates the concept of community (they traditionally have pumps), this is evidence that people think in identities where no identities are. By the way it is not a sneaker. How about scrolling skeletor. User:Akidd_dublin 8th may 2006

A well is not a pump. The use of "village pump" has always been one of the most opaque (yet, luckily, harmless) things about Wikipedia to me. In talking to non-editors about this place I've found that that's one subject that always elicits a "what the hell?" reaction. · rodii · 03:13, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

Credit templates?

Someone created a template Template:AIDSWikiCredit to explicitly assign credite for using a specific page. I think this is not in order, but I am not sure about that. What are the feelings about this? KimvdLinde 19:18, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

Self-references (Articles Linking to User Pages)

Yesterday, I removed a link to a user page in the article British small press comics by changing [[User:Peteashton|Pete Ashton]] to [[Pete Ashton]]. When another editor asked me why I did that, I replied:

There is Wikipedia:Avoid self-references. Although this situation is not explicitly mentioned there, I have seen other editors remove links to the user namespace. I can see how these actions might have just been interpretive, though. Do you think we should ask for clarification?

Thoughts? Ardric47 21:56, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

There shouldn't be any links to user pages on mainspace articles. There are probably a few exceptions, but that page isn't one of them. – Someguy0830 (Talk | contribs) 22:02, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

What about user pages linking to articles? What if more editors are doing this? How many user links can it take? Would it make sense to split: links from articles/links from userspace's? User:Akidd_dublin 8 may 2006

Userpages linking to articles is just fine. No one cares about that and it causes no harm. The opposite is strongly discouraged. – Someguy0830 (Talk | contribs) 22:10, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

Today's featured article shenanigans

Can we please stop all the shenanigans with the featured article of the day? Half the time I click on it it's either deleted or moved to Whatever the right name is/bad/bad or something and it's almost always protected (which is a Bad Thing, see User:Raul654/protection). I can't understand the reason for all this and I really just want it to stop. Apparently it's because vandals have been putting people's phone numbers in the edit summaries or something? I say if you let a vandal have your phone number you're an idiot, so tough luck. It's not worth disrupting Wikipedia. —Keenan Pepper 00:49, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

I say if you let a vandal have your phone number you're - hang on - in the phone book? Let the protections stay, but (although I've never experienced this myself) if the articles are being moved about after becoming featured, that's got to stop. --TVPR 00:55, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

Metric versus American measurements

Since this language's version of Wikipedia is the only to cover a country which does not use SI measurements (and in fact, a supermajority of native english speakers do not), it should be the policy of Wikipedia for all articles to include both metric and American units in all pages where measurements are used. If there is a page lacking in this, it should be noted by a template. R'son-W 07:14, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

I'm inclined to very reluctantly agree. As horrible as the customary units are, Wikipedia can't change popular usage. On the other hand, I think that there are large categories of articles that do not need customary units (even if this proposal were implemented), such as those in astronomy. Ardric47 07:22, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

I'm fine with people adding adding a conversion, but I don't want a new template, as it would just be needless clutter. People wishing to add conversions, can easily do so themselves. I don't want to see hundreds (even thousands) of pages tagged with a new template. --Rob 07:38, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

To clarify what I said above, I'm agreeing with the policy to include both units, not to have a template. Ardric47 07:41, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

Since when did the US not use metric units? What is habitual and what is actual policy are two different things entirely, and the US government deisgnated the SI system as the preferred one 18 full years ago. Further, go right ahead and tell me the speed of light in feet per second. We all know it moves at 300.000km/s, meaning 300.000.000m/s, meaning 300.000.000.000mm/s. Now, equally swiftly, without a calculator, tell me what this is in miles/sec, yards/sec, feet/sec and finally, let's not forget the smallest (and my, how accurate it is too) unit available; inches/sec. To put some more emphasis on the great accuracy of the CUs, how many inches is an average sinarapan? Over a span of 3 unit denominators, it's 12,5mm, 1,25 cm, and 0,125m. How many inches, feet and yards is this? My points are; 1: If you want to trawl all Wikipedia articles for occurances of units not provided in customary units, go right ahead. However, the sheer volume of Wikipedia, and the complete lack of logic in finding the lesser unit of what you currently have, means you've got a nice life's work cut out for you. Enjoy. 2: In an encyclopedia, accuracy - not the habits and quirks of one user group (which by the way happens to claim majority (which is equally false, as you clearly know, and that cleverly adjusting your statistics to show native English-speakers won't change the fact that most of the world still uses BrE, having been, as it were, under British rule or influence for longer than the US has been a country.)) - should be priority. --TVPR 08:09, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

The term "American units" is a misnomer. Most British people still use them in everyday usage as well, despite Britain being "officially" (and generally reluctantly) metric. And many things in the UK, including our roadsigns, are still officially in imperial units (it's actually illegal to use only metric units on roadsigns), so let's not have any false claims that it's only the United States that uses these units. -- Necrothesp 09:30, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

Does Britan use US customary units? I realize they're similar, if not identical, but still. Starting 3 years from now, any product marked with non-SI units will be banned from import into the EU. That ought to help. --TVPR 09:37, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

The one thing Britain is is confused. I measure distance in mm, cm, m and mile... However, back to the point - Britain is very much a metric country, imperial units have not been taught at school for decades. The mile and pint really are the last remaining official uses...

However the Imperial units in Britain are different to "American units". Our pint isn't your pint (20 vs 16 fl oz), our gallon isn't yours, our ton isn't yours... Get the point? If not take a read of Comparison of the Imperial and U.S. customary systems/wangi 09:47, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

Britain, as I said, is officially metric. But in practice it is not, even for those (like myself) who were taught metric units at school, but wouldn't dream of using them unless forced (the only people I've ever heard using metric measurements in day-to-day life have been scientists). Those who claim otherwise are usually evangelical (and rather delusional) metric fans who don't want to accept that their beloved system isn't popular. Also note that Imperial measurements of length, area and basic weight (the ounce and pound) are identical to the American. My main point, however, was not to claim that British and American systems were identical (although some parts of it are), but to counter the arguments that the United States is the only country that retains non-metric measurements. -- Necrothesp 10:03, 9 May 2006 (UTC)