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June 20

PERSONNEL VS HUMAN RESOURCE MANAGEMENT

Hello

I need your help please.

Could please explain what is the difference between personnel and human resource management?

None. They both mean the same thing, but 'human resource management' is the current soft business jargon. By calling themselves human resource managers rather than personnel managers, they're trying to show that they treat people as individuals rather than as resources to be exploited. --Richardrj 05:22, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

And so it says in our article on Human resource management. My take on this is that, in calling this function "human resource" management, they are at least honest by showing explicitly they view humans as a resource. The grouping is as in ((human resource) management), not (human (resource management)). Anyway, part of the theory that goes with it is that this resource has to be tended to, as in care and feeding of, to get the most out of it, and part of the soft sell is that this is supposedly advantageous to both parties (the exploited proletariat masses and the bourgeoisie who buy their labour power). --Lambiam^Talk 10:48, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

HR update: Personnel was a managment term inventied to give the illusion that miners did not need representation by the united mine worker when it was just the first of the fledgling labor movements. The idea is that the workers could take their concerns to personnel who would work as ombudsmen on their behalf in liue of actual U.M.W. shop stewards. In this day HR has replaced personel just as the market pressure of organized labor has been reduced to a shadow of its former past. (Hobgoblin)

Family tree

Can someone find out if Andrew Jackson (the 7th president of the U. S.), and Thomas "Stonewall" Jackson were related?

This suggests they weren't. JackofOz 07:06, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Islamic force invade Europe

I think it may have been one of your featured articles. A mixed european force withstood the invasion of a much larger I think Islamic force. The europeans were outnumbered, but knew that they could not surrender because the invading force had been completely irradicating all the cities which they came across.

They fortified a city and managed to prevent the invading force from tunneling under the city walls. Sharpened shovels were used as a multi purpose digging tool and weapon in the confined tunnel space. Eventually the invading force who had laid siege to the city had to turn away.

The europeans had far fewer weapons and people, and I think they may have been led by a Hollander.

Are you thinking perhaps of the Siege of Vienna in 1529, or possibly the 1683 Battle of Vienna?-gadfium 09:43, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

I believe the answer is the The Battle of Tours which was led by Charles Martel. The end of the Battle of Tours article states "For his defense of Europe against both Muslim invasion and barbarian incursions, but most specifically for his victory in this battle, Charles Martel is considered a hero in the Netherlands, a vital part of the Carolingian Empire, and the Low Countries. In both France and Germany he is revered as a hero of epic proportions. Gibbon called him "the paramount prince of his age."" and this seems to match what the poster meant.--69.171.123.148 03:28, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

I'd rule out the Battle of Tours (732), as the question mentions a fortified city with city walls. The Battle of Tours took place in the flat open country between Tours and Poitiers, and there were few cities worthy of the name before the rebirth of cities in Europe around the twelfth century. That suggests you take a closer look at the Siege of Vienna or the Battle of Vienna.

FWIW, there were also many lesser "invasions" of Europe by Islamic raiding parties. --SteveMcCluskey 19:35, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

Spirit Decanters

Which spirits are appropriate to be kept in crystal decanters and what is wrong with keeping them in the original bottle in which they came? The decanter article only seems to deal with wine decanters. How do you know which spirit is in which decanter? --Username132 (talk) 11:26, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Any spirit can be transferred to a decanter, if it has a good airtight seal; or to any without a seal if you only keep them a few days. You put spirits into decanters because you have decanters, and want to show them off. Or because you think it's how the people in the social class to which you aspire behave. Or because you hope to conceal the inferior brands you purchased. Terribly middle class. People who use decanters rarely have so many that it's possible to lose track of what you have; it would be rare to find someone, for example, using decanters for two malt whisky bottlings they cared to tell apart. Nevertheless, some people hang little decorative labels from chains around the neck. People who care enough to tell one whisky from another, or whisky from whiskey, would almost certainly not decant them. The justifications which apply to wine (beyond the social and pretentious ones) do not apply to any spirit. I should confess: we have some small decanters which we put whisky into and leave in guest rooms. I leave it up to you to speculate why. Notinasnaid 13:09, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

• Originally wine, port and sherry were decanted because corking techniques were not as good and the wines were full of sediment and bits of cork so it was decanted and strained so it was clear when it came to the table.Spirits were often purchased in small barrells and therefor some was run off into a decanter to serve at table. Decanters also were often in the form of a tantalus which could be locked to stop the staff getting at it.*hic*--hotclaws**==(217.39.11.210 05:36, 21 June 2006 (UTC))

earth is round?

Hi Can u pls tell me who is credited with determining that the Earth is round (and when this is attributed)?

Thanks very much.

ryan rose email deleted for your own good

See Spherical Earth and Flat Earth Nowimnthing 15:03, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

My favorite is Aristotle. He figured it out and then dismissed it as inconsistent with universal rules. (He figured it out with nothing but his bare eyes. He saw the earth's shadow during a lunar eclipse. Seeing that, he noted that, if the earth were flat, the shadow of the earth on the moon would have to be flat at some point during the eclipse. The only shape that would always give a half circle is a sphere.) Geogre 17:25, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

I like Eratosthenes who calculated the circumference with a stick! I just caught the remastered Cosmos where Carl Sagan gushes about him. Nowimnthing 18:56, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

IQ of Earth

An NSF Fellow and principle investigator on analog/digital pacemakers told me that he thought that the total IQ points for the planet is a constant, but the population isn't. It was how he explained the zeitgeist paradox, when there are some periods in history when it seems like every other person was a genius. (During the Elizabethan era, all of England had a population less than current day New York City. So, are there 3-4 Shakespeares we're not seeing in NYC, or is the world dumber?) Geogre 03:56, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

(This looks like a new question, not a respone to the previous question - so I moved it.)

That theory has been around a long time. When I studied Nation of Islam, the creation story that I got from a prison visit included the observation that only 10% of all humans are real humans (with intelligence). The rest are animals that mimic humans. So, if only 10% are intelligent, the average IQ would remain constant. Note: I never found a similar story in any other study of Islam. The whole story was used to explain why Nation of Islam members are justified in hating white (devil) people. --Kainaw ^(talk) 15:32, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

I didn't really mean for it to be a question, but the paradox of certain moments producing disproportionate genius has vexed people for a while. One thought is, of course, Hegel's zeitgeist. Another was that climate was to blame. Another was that it took political and cultural revolutions, where the debris of certainty had been blown away. The "constant IQ points" thing was intended as a joke. I think, by the way, that the Islamic idea you mention is based on the idea of djinn and ifreeti and such. The early Gnostics similarly felt that there were simulacra running around. Geogre 19:36, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

Who says there aren't 3 or 4 Shakespeares in New York? Because we haven't been drowned under a tidal wave of plays about mediaeval European kings? The Elizabethan geniuses worked in the fields that were available to them, and people like Woody Allen, Dr Dre, Alex Haley, and Barbara McClintock work in theirs. The relative dearth of women 'geniuses' in past eras doesn't mean that the concentration of IQ in females is more concentrated, does it?--Anchoress 19:48, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

That, of course, is the converse: that there are so many geniuses, and we're simply not finding out about them. (No, I wouldn't put any of those people you mention up with John Webster, much less Marlowe, much less Jonson, much less Shakespeare.) There is one argument that we have as many geniuses, but our media are controlled to such a degree that we don't get anyone who's really brilliant. Another argument is that we're not seeing them because our qualification system prevents "untrained" people like Shakespeare from getting a chance (and Shakespeare's King John is not a good play). That women weren't represented in the past is another argument, but it can be an argument for or against the idea that there are magical epochs and zeitgeists. (And, incidentally, comparing what's out right now with the English renaissance favorably shows either an exaggerated pleasure in what's out now or a stunted appreciation of what they did. "Some medieval kings" isn't it, you know.) Geogre 20:50, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

Richard the LionHeart's Sword

I need to know what Richard the Lionheart's sword looked like. There are a couple versions. There is a statue of him holding a sword infront of Westminster. Please let me know the most accruate historical desciption of his sword. I belive it has his crest of three lions. Do not answer the question if your answer does not provide any helpful information. Thank You.

Maybe he had more than one? AnonMoos 17:01, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

don't bother looking at the statue. Here is a roughly contemporary image, fwiiw. He lived in the 12th century, so he would probably have had an Oakeshott XII blade [1]. dab (ᛏ) 17:15, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Bible on the Index??

I have here a recent magazine article claiming that "on 22 March 1745, the Vatican put the Bible itself on the Index" (for its sexually explicit scenes). However, I can find no evidence of this whatsoever on the Internet. Is the claim mis-reported, simply invented, or true after all? dab (ᛏ) 17:05, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Certain kinds of Protestants have accused the Catholic church of effectively discouraging Bible-reading by Catholic laymen at various times, since (they allege) the Catholic church doesn't want laymen to directly interpret the Bible for themselves, but instead wants them to get an official interpretation at second hand from priests and the church hierarchy. I bet that what you refer to (if there's any factual basis to it) would have to do with this issue, and not with sex in the Bible at all... AnonMoos 17:13, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

what do you mean, "certain kinds of Protestants"? The Catholic Church did, in fact, discourage laypeople from reading the bible at a certain interval of its history (13th to 16th centuries); the Vatican in 1234 outlawed Bible translations, effectively preventing the Bible from being read by people not versed in Latin, Greek or Hebrew (viz., the clergy). That is however far from equivalent to putting the Bible on the Index. The reason for this tendency is, of course, the existence of certain passages (including sexually explicit ones) that the Church considered difficult to interpret correctly without the proper theological background, so yes, Biblical sex, drugs and violence is at the core of this. But that still leaves me with no idea of whether the 1745 date is a pure invention. dab (ᛏ) 17:27, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

I mean that for some Protestants, anyone who discourages or restricts Bible-reading in any way in any context is by definition doing Satan's work on earth ipso facto. I still bet that it has little directly to do with sex. AnonMoos 17:44, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Sounds like nonsense to me. What magazine is this, now? --Fastfission 21:46, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

I've come to the same conclusion now; it's from a Swiss magazine, it usually has rather high quality, but I suppose the more critically you look at journalism, the more it looks like nonsensical babble. dab (ᛏ) 00:09, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

For most of its history, the Catholic church opposed translation of the Bible and attempted to prevent laypersons from reading it, except for devotional purposes (e.g. psalms, etc) recited by rote. According to Denzinger's Enchiridion Symbolorum et Definitionum (1854), Pope Innocent III stated in 1199 that "... to be reproved are those who translate into French the Gospels, the letters of Paul, the psalter, etc. They are moved by a certain love of Scripture in order to explain them clandestinely and to preach them to one another. The mysteries of the faith are not to explained rashly to anyone. Usually in fact, they cannot be understood by everyone but only by those who are qualified to understand them with informed intelligence. The depth of the divine Scriptures is such that not only the illiterate and uninitiated have difficulty understanding them, but also the educated and the gifted." Likewise, at the Council of Toulouse in 1229, the church resolved to "prohibit also that the laity should be permitted to have the books of the Old or New Testament; unless anyone from motive of devotion should wish to have the Psalter or the Breviary for divine offices or the hours of the blessed Virgin; but we most strictly forbid their having any translation of these books." There was an obvious strategic reason for this secretive attitude. If people began interpreting the Bible themselves, they might become disenchanted with the official position and turn to heresy. However, this tendency is common in any hierarchical creedal religion: for a modern example, consider the Church of Scientology and their tireless attempts to prevent their OT documents from being exposed. Like today's Scientologists, the medieval Catholic leaders wanted their followers to approach truth on a gradient. Of course, this has proven fertile ground for Protestant critics. From Martin Luther to Jack Chick, anti-papists have not hesitated to stretch the truth for propaganda purposes. Of course, the modern Catholic church has no such policies (or ignores them), since they make no sense in an environment where one can easily, safely switch religions. Bhumiya (said/done) 09:19, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

Appropriate Consitency For Creme Brulee

What is the appropriate consitency for creme brulee? I thought it should be almost jelly-like, whilst my mum says a thick custard consitancy. --Username132 (talk) 19:00, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Our very own article on Creme brulee describes the base as a custard, as do most of the external links that I could find. The recipes I found also describe cooking a custard (see here and here, for example), so I think your mum wins this round. --LarryMac 20:31, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Your mum definently wins. I've baked more creme brulee than I care to remember - my mom was a caterer - and it's ideally a smooth, creamy custard. --George 04:11, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

Country names

This is such a basic question that I don't know how to research it in the encyclopedia. Why do countries have different names in other countries? For example, the country we call Germany is Deutschland to its citizens. Why don't we use the name they use? The name Germany obviously comes from the Latin word Germania, but why do we use it? The Germans (or Deutsche) call our country Die Vereinigten Staaten von Amerika, an understandable translation of The United States of America, but they don't call our nation something completely different from our formal name. I shouldn't ask why this is "allowed", because sovereign nations can do just about whatever they want. But why is this done? 66.213.33.2 19:01, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

try the language reference desk - WP:RD/L VdSV9•♫ 19:40, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Because we don´t speak the same language and therefore simply have to translate names? Languages, names, and the respective translations simply change with the passing of time. It seems to me that you are of the opinion that names should not be translated. Well too bad for you, because they simply are. It is unavoidable, it is...their destiny. (Darth Vader is soo cool)

In a normal converation the Germans don´t speak about "die Vereinigten Staaten von Amerika" they speak about "die USA". Besides, the official name of Germany (on official documents) isn´t "Deutschland" but "Bundesrepublik Deutschland" or "Deutsche Bundesrepublik" ("Federal republic of Germany" and "German federal republic").

"Germania" is the name given by the Romans and they wrote down history, instead of the ileterate "barbaric" German tribes. Therefore "Germania" was translated into English: "Germany". Realize that a tipical country (besides the "young" USA) had plenty of diffrent names during history, and these name changed as the political systems changed, empires were disolved, etc.

My favourite example for this process, is the name Jesus, who was probably called "Joshua", or something like that (I don't understand Aramaic). As this name was translated into Greek and later into Latin his name changed into "Iesus" (in classical Latin the letter "J" hadn't been invented yet). Translate that into English and you end up with "Jesus". Ask the average person on the street and he will tell that the "dude on the cross" is called "Jesus". Flamarande 20:01, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

The idea is that people did travel less when foreign country names were first learned. They were approximate pronunciations or rough translations or figures of speech (a province name for the entire country) and sometimes names given by a conqueror. Then people stick to an historical name, as different as the real one as a name for any thing in a foreign language - which disturbs no one. This was done regardless of the fact that a country name is a proper name and not a common name.

Nowadays when a country does change its name, the information is relayed by the media and people sometimes follow it. The same goes with foreign money, some towns ... other examples maybe. --DLL 20:36, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

The English speaking world is a bit inconsistent about it. Nobody would think of talking about Peking, or Ceylon, or Rhodesia anymore. But the Netherlands and Holland are still interchangeable, in conversation at least. JackofOz 21:14, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Germany is an interesting case, even more interesting when you're refering to the German language. In so many languages, "German" is refered to in a seemingly unique, unrelated way. In English we refer to someone speaking "German", in German itself the word is "Deutsch", the French refer to the German language as "Allemand", and in Russian, it's refered to as "Nyemnitski Yezik", which can roughly be translated as "the language of those who cannot speak". It's an interesting phenomenon, but I have no particular explanation for it. Loomis 21:48, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

The names of Germany all derive from the tribes that inhabited it including the Germans and the Alemannic (hence the spanish word is Alemania). Since the country germany or Deutschland) was formed long after the areas people had already been named in all languages. Philc _T^E_C^I 22:08, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

One thing to keep in mind that these names in other languages generally predate the named entities' becoming nation states with official names. Germany as a nation state is a recent invention; see Unification of Germany. The official name then became Deutsches Kaiserreich, and I can foregive the Anglo-Saxons for not attempting to mangle that. Until 1806 the official name of the originally loose conglomeration of German states was the Heilige Römische Reich. In the good old days things were often not as clear-cut as they are made to be today; see for example the question whether Pope Adrian VI was Dutch or Deutsch. --Lambiam^Talk 22:34, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

The official name of the German Empire was Deutsches Reich. --Cam 03:41, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

It amuses me when countries request outsiders to change what they call them. Sometimes the requests stick, like Myanmar and Côte d'Ivoire (a new one is Timor-Leste), though there are always a few hold-outs who refuse to change their usage. Other requests remain largely unfulfilled, like Czechia (proposed by the Czech government in 1993) and Türkiye (the Turkish name for their country, proposed by the Turkish government IIRC in the late 1980's for English-language use, to avoid confusion with other English uses of the word turkey). ---Cam 03:52, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

Does anybody outside Timor-Leste call it "Timor-Leste"? I've never heard it called anything except "East Timor", except by East Timorese people. Which is a pity, 'cos Timor-Leste is much more euphonious and evocative name. JackofOz 07:24, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

Well, all the portuguese speaking countries use "Timor-Leste" and that is it. But "Côte d'Ivoire" hasn´t entered common usage. Almost everybody continues to use "Ivory coast" (except those who speak French). Even in the world championship they used the later name. What bugs me is that "old" names (who were universaly recognized in the english language) are being changed (e.g. Mao Tse-Tung > Mao Ze Dong) for all kind of dubious reasons (usualy political corectness). Flamarande 08:40, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

There's a lot of countries that changed their names, usually on decolonisation, creating new ones or digging up ancient ones. Ghana. Togo. Benin. Sri Lanka. Bangladesh (from West Pakistan, and "Pakistan" was only coined recently). Iran. The reason people notice "Côte d'Ivoire" is that it changed its name into something literal in French, which the other nations didn't do - the others changed to something essentially meaningless to Western ears so it still "sounded like a country". Shimgray | talk | 18:50, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

I particulary like fancy names like "Deutsche Demokratische Republic = German Democratic Republic" and "République Démocratique du Congo = Democratic Republic of the Congo". Somehow the leaders of such countries like to pretend that they are democratic. "Only in name" takes a literal meaning here. Flamarande 20:42, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

Well, Upper Volta seems to have been successful in getting the rest of the world to call it Burkina Faso. User:Zoe|^(talk) 02:17, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

It's also both interesting and counter-intuitive, though not surprising, that in the PC world we live in, the less "European" or "Caucasian" the inhabitants of a given country are, the more likely English speakers will be corrected into using "better", more "authentic" versions of their name, lest they be labeled ignorant bigots.

Within Europe for example, the English language is obviously far more related to the dozens of other languages spoken in Europe than it is to, for example, a language spoken halfway around the world such as Cantonese Chinese.

Yet English speakers are never reprimanded for "renaming" foreign European place-names, even when the original name is rather easily pronounceable in English, for example:

The Italian Roma is refered to as Rome, similarly "Varsava" is renamed Warsaw, "Moskva" - Moscow. "Budapesht" - Budapest. "Napoli" - Naples. "Firenze" - Florence...the list goes on and on.

Yet refer to China's "Guangdong Province" as "Canton Province" (with the understanding that perhaps a Cantonese word may be just a bit tougher for an English speaker to pronounce than, say, the word "Roma",) and you're considered an ignorant bigot...go figure. Loomis 00:34, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

Check out Names of European cities in different languages. There are hundreds of examples of English place names that are different in other languages. Just take London - its alternative versions include: Landan, Llundain, Londain, Londe, Londen, Londhíno, Londinium, Londona, Londonas, Londono, Londra, Londres, Londrez, Londyn, Londýn, Lontoo, Loundres, and Lundúnir. So it's not a question of "reprimanding" anybody. That would require some unwritten law to have been transgressed. There is no such law, as the above list clearly demonstrates, and we've all been gulled into being terribly PC about this issue. How about a little more tolerance for diversity? JackofOz 14:50, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

I think I completely agree with you Jack, and I think you're agreeing with me, but as usual, I'm not 100% sure. In any case, my point is simple: Naturally, different people from different parts of the world speak different languages and have different phonetic skills, and therefore, refer to different places with different names. I think that's all great. I just find it annoying when I'm (fine, not reprimanded, but certainly) looked down upon when I pronounce the "R" in a name like "Nicaragua" with that typically North American English HARD "R" rather than vainly attempting to contort my mouth and tongue in a manner they're simply not capable of, to produce that precise "trill" that a native Spanish speaker would have no problem with. I also refuse to apologize for not having the Mandarin skills to know the precise pronunciation of Mao Tse-Tung/Mao Ze Dong (or even to be able to tell the subtle difference between the two...after all, the newly corrected "Mao Ze Dong" will certainly not be the last iteration of the way the man's name should "truly" be pronounced by westerners).

We English speakers too employ a couple of sounds that most non-English speakers find incredibly hard to pronounce. A great example is our "th" sound. Yet would any of us be so rude as to point out to a non-native English speaker that "Pert" or "Perse" is an incorrect way of pronouncing "Perth, Australia"? Or correct a foreigner describing what a lovely time s/he had while vacationing in "Nort" America, and in particular, how beautiful he or she found "Marta's" Vineyard to be? Would we consider them ignorant bigots for refusing to learn the correct way to pronounce the "th" sound? Of course not. It's completely understandable that they would have such a difficulty, as it's not a sound that exists in their native tongue. God forbid, though, I should ever dare to refer to the capital of PROC as Peking!

The funniest thing of all, though, is that I happen to have an unusually large number of Chinese-Canadian friends, most born in China. I seem to be very comfortable and at ease with this nationality in particular. At work I naturally gravitate toward my Chinese colleagues. (And trust me, ask anyone here, I'm no PC panderer, if there's a culture out there that I find myself less than comfortable with, I'd be the first to say so, and indeed I HAVE, so please don't regard this as another pretentious instance of "tokenism"). In any case, my Chinese friends (especially those newest to Canada) are completely bewildered when I tell them that the term "Oriental" is considered offensive these days, and that the more acceptable term is "East-Asian". They seem to have no idea why on earth nowadays we shun the word "Oriental", which is of course merely latin for "eastern". In fact, it's not these often discriminated against visible minorities that take issue with terms like "Oriental", or "Peking", rather, as it would seem it seems to be some odd phenomenon apparently dreamt up by apparently guilt ridden white, English speaking, PC westerners. As if altering the English language would somehow erase racism. Quite the contrary. I see all these ridiculous name changes as an odd sort of distraction, a distraction from what REALLY needs to be done, which is simply to treat each and every individual with the respect they deserve. (And if certain individuals don't deserve respect, then, hell, by all means! Disrespect them!) Loomis 20:52, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

12 Angry Men: Why all men

Regarding the 1957 film 12 Angry Men: This may be a dumb question, but in the ... why are all the jurors male? If picked randomly, there's only a 1-in-4096 chance that all the jurors would be male. Did women rarely or never participate in jury service in 1957? Were women all weeded out in jury selection on the grounds that men are more likely to vote death penalty? --Alecmconroy 21:00, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Women were not called for jury duty until the 1960's, I believe. The film was based on a play, and both were done before women began being called. This was long after women had voting rights. (Jury and Jury duty would be the logical articles to see.) Geogre 03:51, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

Only full citizens can become jurors, and women became full citizens quite recently. The USA are not the finest example (despite common belief) of giving rights to any group. Women recieved the right to vote around or after the WWI, and a whole generation had to pass before they became really accepted, and were considerd potential jurors. And even today the trend still continues. Look around, surely somewhere in Wikipedia you will find some article about this. Flamarande 21:29, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

That's utter nonsense. Women were full citizens from the time of the formation of the country, save for voting rights. They were taxed, after all, and counted in the census, and used to determine population. And they were given the suffrage long before the play came out. You'll have to ask the original author why he chose only men for the jury. User:Zoe|^(talk) 02:19, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

There's also the issue of how jurors are selected. Voter registration is used in my county. So, if you don't register to vote, you won't get selected for jury duty - even if you are legally allowed to be a juror. Therefore, no woman could be a juror in my county until she registered to vote. --Kainaw ^(talk) 15:22, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

It's the same in the United States, where the film was set. I top-posted a bit because one answer wanted to maintain that the jurors were male in the movie because women weren't allowed to vote or given full franchise. That's incorrect, rather strongly incorrect. Jury pools simply lagged behind a bit. The reasons could have been chivalric or misogynistic, could have been 'because mothers are too important to sequester' or because 'women are too given to emotion to judge,' but it wasn't because women couldn't vote. Geogre 17:02, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

I think it was a state-by-state issue for awhile. The ACLU, for example, fought (and won) a case in 1975 which a Louisiana law prohibiting women from being on juries challenged as unconstitutional (violated a female defendant's right to a jury of her peers, Sixth Amendment). Sadly we have no article on the case (Taylor v. Louisiana). --Fastfission 20:04, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

Additionally, the odds are only 1-in-4096 if you assume an equal chance of men and women being in the eligible jury pool. Even today that is not necessarily the case, as voter registration statistics are not exactly 50/50 (though today I believe women are registered at a slightly higher rate than men). Additionally there a number of occupations which traditionally are exempt from jury duty which have major gender discreprencies (such as teachers). --Fastfission 19:59, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

The statement that voter registration lists are used to create jury pools is no longer completely accurate. While voter lists are still used, many jurisdictions have discovered that people were not registering to vote simply to stay off juries. So in some places, voter lists are supplemented by other lists, such as driver's licenses and property tax rolls. — Michael J 15:54, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

william shakespeare

I am trying to sale my copied manuscript of a mortgage deed that William Shakepeare had written.

Translation in english of the mortgage deed is written on the backside.

No damage.

Thanks,

Peyton

That's interesting. I hope you find a buyer. schyler 21:31, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Got to Ebay to sell it, please. Wikipedia not an online market. Flamarande 21:32, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

What language is on the frontside? Did you do the copying yourself? How do you know 'twas the immortal bard who wrote the original deed? Whose leg(s) are you trying to pull? --Lambiam^Talk 08:01, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

"translation on the back" -- from what language???

Simple...Shakespeare spoke English, so the deed was likely written in English. It was then translated from English to English. Makes perfect sense. (huh?) Loomis 19:47, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

BTW, what's the mileage of the manuscript? Has it been in any accidents? Any rust? Oh...sorry, I could have sworn I was in my local newspaper's classified section. Loomis 19:47, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

Well, if, supposing just for a moment, this were real, the language would be Latin. Still, I think this is along the lines of the son of Soni Abache wanting to smuggle $20 million out and needing just your bank account and routing numbers. Geogre 21:00, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

Why latin? In Elizabethan times, the English Common Law certainly used several latin terms, and even more Law French terms, nonetheless, the document would otherwise have been written in (Elizabethan) English. Loomis 00:34, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

St Teresa's Shubra

Hi There,

Wanting to know any information about St Teresa's in Shubra Egypt. It's a Catholic Church that my Mum used to visit as a kid, but when she went back this year it was guarded and she wasn't allowed in. Any information on it's history (when it was built etc) and why is it now guarded would be great? Apparently there was a body (not St Teresa's real body), but also a finger that was apparently hers. I have become intrigued and a little obsessed with trying to find out anything.

Any help is greatly appreciated. Thanks

There is a picture of it here. And another picture and a map showing where it is on this page. --Cam 14:58, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

A Film Based Wikipedia

To Whom This May Concern at Wikipedia,

I found that there were different types of Wikipedias such as Wookiepedia which is based on all information regarding the Star Wars Universe but I was wondering if there was the same thing for Film. I cannot find many of the specific and hard to find tidbits throughout the history of film on the main page. If you already have one could you please e-mail me at (e-mail address removed to prevent spam) and tell me how to get there. If not then could you please start one. Thanks

Please don't post your e-mail here, we answer questions within the desk itself. You can sign your comments by adding four tildes (~~~~) to the end of your post. Emmett5 22:57, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Go to the Community Portal page and ask there about interest. There is a pay Wiki-Cities endeavor where such a thing would be possible to start, if you don't have servers. Otherwise, you would need to go to Wikimedia, if you want it to be under Wikipedia's auspices. It's not a bad idea (Wiki-cine? Cinewiki?). You can get the wiki software, if you wish to webhost a project, as it's open-source. I don't know of a wiki devoted to film at present, though. Geogre 03:49, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

I suppose you realize there is already a huge mass of information about films in Wikipedia. Take a look at lists of films for starters.--Shantavira 06:29, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

Wookiepedia is a wiki not a Wikipedia. Wikipedia is an online encyclopedia hosted by the Wikimedia Foundation. A wiki is a website using wiki software. - Mgm|^(talk) 11:49, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

How about we make a movie based on Wikipedia, specifically on the ref desk. It has a huge cast of characters played by some of the most fascinating actors you'd find anywhere; a crazy plot that's full of twists and turns and is guaranteed to keep you on the edge of your seat; and the director is constantly being replaced, which will have you wondering "what on earth will be coming next". Just when you think it's starting to take itself too seriously, it launches into something really humorous, and the journey continues. It has drama, pathos, and is full of surprises. On the other side of the ledger, it doesn't have much romance - well, none actually - and there's a noticeable absence of a decent music score. But all in all, it's thoroughly good value. 5 stars. JackofOz 12:24, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

What are you talking about? There's a great soundtrack; the only problem is that all of the songs are less than 30 seconds, for copyright reasons. --ByeByeBaby 13:58, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

And what would my part be? I'm thinking the voice would be that of James Earl Jones, dressed in some incredibly evil costume, yet somehow possessing inexplicable charisma, tempting the rest of you: "Embrace the dark side of Wiki, its right wing...join me...that's where your true destiny lies". Loomis 23:55, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

Inexplicable indeed, Loomis. (Lol. Don't worry, we all still love you. Well, I do anyway. Which is equally inexplicable, and scary.) JackofOz 14:10, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

And there you were saying the movie wouldn't have any romance -- Ferkelparade π 14:15, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

Romance? Not much. Sexual frustration? Enough to fuel a quasar. (I can imagine our Jo Swington Cassanova wandering through frame every few minutes....) Geogre 15:01, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

My Rights (when approached by police in Canada)

Hi there,

I've been researching my rights as a Canadian citizen, especially when approached by police. I'm not looking for legal advice, maybe just some insight. I've read over the Charter of Rights and Freedoms which seems rather straightforward, and it seems pretty similar to most laws in the United States. For instance, if I'm walking down the street, do I have to speak to the officer or provide identification? (Rationale being that it's my right to be in a public place.) Also, what are grounds for an officer legally searching my person without my consent? "Everyone has the right to be secure against unreasonable search or seizure." Not that descriptive, to me anyway. Any pieces of advice or references for reputable websites would be appreciated. Though I'm still a student, none of this was taught to me in high school. Thanks in advance everyone, Mrtea (talk) 22:49, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Hi, here's insight, I don't know if I'm absolutely right. First, it all comes down to three things:

1. Whether or not you are reasonably suspected of having committed a crime.
2. Your attitude, and to a lesser extent, your appearance, location and the people you're with.
3. What the cops had for breakfast.

Technically you don't have to talk to them or show identification. But while I probably wouldn't show identification unless I'd been seen spitting off a bridge, I wouldn't refuse to talk to them and I'd be careful to seem cooperative. We've all heard lots of stories about the latitude many police depts give officers (moving people and dumping them, etc). Also, you have to stay well away from anything that can be construed as being uncooperative or resisting arrest. Asking the officer why s/he has stopped you and what the problem is is 100% within your rights.

My understanding, in short, is that officers of the law can't compel you to do anything unless they have a reasonable suspicion that you've done something illegal, or have something to do with a crime. Unfortunately, what constitutes reasonable suspicion is very grey, and if you get justifiably (from your POV) lippy with an officer and lose a tooth on your way to lockup, it really doesn't matter if you haven't done anything wrong and the officer may not face any disciplinary action for roughing you up.--Anchoress 23:23, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

I'm afraid it's all in the precedents, which flesh out the S.8 right in question, in pretty much the same manner as the 4th amendment has been in the U.S. In other words, if you have the patience to read a couple of thousand pages of case law, you'll get a pretty good idea of where the law stands. I suppose I could give a far more extensive answer to this question, but I'm afraid I'd be violating a yet-to-be-articulated wiki rule, do not bore wikipedians to death with lengthy dissertations on Canadian Constitutional Law. Otherwise, your best bet is to wait for yet another spin-off of Law & Order, one dealing with a squad of Canadian detectives. I can see it now: Law & Order - CJ: "Canadian Justice" - lol, I wouldn't hold my breath. Loomis 10:03, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

Everyone seems to be asking about Canada (remember that question about shooting Canadians near the border from the US side). Is there any reason to be worried. I've seen a lot more police on the streets in New York than in Toronto, and never was I approached by a policeman in Canada, while I have been in New York.

A website you might try checking is the Canadian Civil Liberties Association--Anchoress 11:12, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

Quoting a website in a press release

Cross post - sorry, I don't know the best place to post it.

I'm writing a press release and I've done a heap of research on how to do it right, but there's something I haven't found; what's the legality of quoting something that's been said by a particular person on a website? Do I have to get permission, or is it available to be quoted by virtue of being public? I would be crediting the originator.--Anchoress 23:15, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Assuming you're an American, it would almost certainly be fair use, assuming the borrowings are short. --Robert Merkel 01:32, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

Hmmm, I'm not sure about that. Since the intention is to get the press release published in a bunch of newspapers, I don't see how it would fit under fair use.--Anchoress 02:23, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

You're allowed to quote brief extracts, but not a substantial part of an original. The exact proportion is not legally defined. Whether something has or has not previously been published before is not the issue: it is still copyright. If it's just a short quote, you should be OK. Tyrenius 02:40, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

OK, that's awesome. Thanks to both of you for the info. I was just worried because the only concrete info I've been able to find online says that if you quote people without getting permission you could be sued. But I guess that means stuff that hasn't been published? Cuz I guess the web is kind of like a book or other publication? If it's already out there the person has committed themselves, so quoting them from a web publication is like quoting another published source?--Anchoress 02:50, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

If you quote large extracts from someone's work, then you would be liable for a breach of copyright, whether it's been published or not. Certainly in the UK, something is copyright as soon as it's been created. Journalists quote dialogue from people all the time without asking permission. Perhaps you could give the online reference. Please also bear in mind that this is not legal information, as we are not qualified to do that. This is only a discussion. Tyrenius 19:10, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

Ismail Haniya and Mahmoud Abbas

1. Are the majority of Palestinians Shia?
2. Are the Palestinian prime minister and president both Shia?Patchouli 23:47, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

1. No.

2. I strongly doubt that either one is, but Hamas is certainly willing to work with Hezbollah and Iran!

AnonMoos 02:00, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

I thought the Islamic Republic of Iran is sending money to the Palestinians because they are Shia; apparently I was wrong.Patchouli 02:10, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

Iran gives Hamas money because they both are dedicated to the destruction of Israel. I doubt the Sh'ia/Sunni divide has any relevance to either of them. Loomis 23:40, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

I think you are confusing with Hezbollah, which is supported by Iran and is based in Lebanon. As far I know, most Shia muslims are Iranian, while Azerbaijan and Lebanon are Shia too, and there is a substantial number of them in Iraq and Pakistan. Evilbu 10:20, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

June 21

Hispanic Immigrants / US Colleges

Hi

I am looking for resources that help hispanic immigrants (college students) assimilate themselves into Americain society. For a hispanic immigrant student looking to attend a United States college, what resources are available to him/her? (On a nationwide basis). What services do colleges offer to immigrants, and what can a hispanic immigrant expect to find in the US college system that is different than that of their own college system (using Mexican colleges as a base, even though there will be differences in where people come from). Any and all ideas would be VERY appreciated. Thanks!

Please don't post the same question on more than one board. StuRat 04:29, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

UNITED STATES CONSTITUTION?

if they wanted to could they make an amendment to make dry cleaning legal?--Bee(y)^Ti 01:24, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

Two thirds of both houses of congress and three fourths of the state legislatures could pass an amendment on any subject that they wanted -- except denying a state equal representation in the Senate without its consent... AnonMoos 02:40, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

Um, dry cleaning is already legal. —Keenan Pepper 02:44, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

• yes but it's legality isn't explicitly guaranteed under the US Constitution--Bee(y)^Ti 02:46, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

I think you mean "could they make dry cleaning a guaranteed right." The answer is yes. Theoretically, one can amend the Constitution to say anything, with the possible exception of totally invalidating itself and setting up a new constitution. That's debatable, but it's also a whole 'nother topic. --George 04:06, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

As pointed out, dry cleaning is already legal. Despite the silliness of the question, If you want to pinpoint where in the constitution the legality of "dry cleaning" would be arrived at, it would have to be the 10th Amendment (the residual amendment): "The powers not delegated to the United States [the federal government] nor prohibited by it to the States, [as dry cleaning is not], are reserved to the States respectively [i.e. dry cleaning could be legislated upon by the individual States, but I know of no such law] or to the people [i.e. dry cleaning is legal since no State has made it illegal as far as I know]. Loomis 09:50, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

Legality isn't explicitly guaranteed? That's just bizarre. Is this another wind-up? I think you'll find that everything is legal unless there's a law against it; not the other way round. Is there an amendment explicitly making any form of cleaning legal?--Shantavira 06:35, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

Why is it bizarre? It needn't be explicitly guaranteed until it has been explicitly illegalized. If every legal thing were explicitly so, the law would dwarf the Library of Babel. Dry cleaning is legal because it has not been made illegal. That is the only definition of legal I know of. It is not currently prohibited, so it is, by definition, legal. If some state, say Alabama, attempted to ban dry cleaning, then the federal government might possibly have a reason to introduce a dry cleaning rights amendment explicitly permitting dry cleaning, but it would actually take the form of a law preventing the states from legislating against dry cleaning. To use a real-life example, slavery was never explicitly permitted by the U.S. Constitution. It was simply not disallowed. When such a law seemed likely to be passed, the Confederacy broke away and wrote a new constitution that explicitly prevented the federal government from preventing slavery (literally, "No bill of attainder, ex post facto law, or law denying or impairing the right of property in negro slaves shall be passed [by Congress]") So they didn't explicitly legalize slavery. They simply made it illegal to illegalize it. So yes, if anti-dry-cleaning types were ever elected and pro-dry-cleaning states seceded and formed their own federation, they could explicitly legalize dry cleaning by explicitly illegalizing its illegalization! Bhumiya (said/done) 01:06, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

Is this some sort of joke? The above paragraph doesn't even make sense, as it clearly contradicts itself. The fourth sentence alone actually makes sense: "I think you'll find that everything is legal unless there's a law against it; not the other way round". The rest of the paragraph is just a bunch of contradictory nonsense. In fact the whole question seems to be too moronic to be actually a serious one: A constitutional amendment making dry cleaning legal? Here's a better topic: Does Congress have the power to declare war against the planet Neptune? Any ideas, anybody?

Of course not! Don't be ridiculous. They would issue an authorization of the use of military force (AUMF) against Neptune. They stopped declaring their wars in 1942. Bhumiya (said/done) 01:06, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

Money laundering is illegal. What if you left money in a pocket when you have your clothes dry cleaned? I hope every concerned U.S. citizen will urge their elected representatives for the following amendment to the Bill of Rights: Clean clothes being necessary to the well-being of the People, the right of the People to have their clothes dry cleaned shall not be infringed. --Lambiam^Talk 08:16, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

metal, rock and ...

There is a genre called metal, another called rock and... (the name of the 3rd, is punk rock???? Hardcore??? Or what??)

So my question is: What is the right name of the genre that some people call punk rock and others hardcore???

It's always hard to classify music into genres, since something will always fall on the line between genres. As far as I'm concerned, finding good music is more important than classifying it. To answer your question, though, I think most people consider hardcore to be a subgenre of punk rock, in the same way that something like ska-punk might be. That being said, I know that certain people who are really into that sort of music consider hardcore to be it's own genre, and the rest of punk to be too much like mainstream rock. I've also heard of hardcore as a "middle ground" that includes hardcore punk, as well as metalcore bands. In the end, it's all just music -- play it loud, and who cares exactly what it's called? --ByeByeBaby 02:58, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

As a first generation punk rocker, myself, all I'll say is that at this point the labels mean almost nothing, what with all the slicing and sifting they've received by fans and bands eager to claim to being unique or new. However, groups like Fear and The Germs came along after punk was well underway and were influenced by British punk bands that had been influenced by The Ramones. Some of them, like Mission of Burma and Husker Du, were just plain unique, as they worked out their own conclusions from unpredictable sources, but most of them were Sex Pistols and Clash influenced. Meanwhile, punk had started with Television (band) and The Patti Smith Group and Talking Heads, Blondie, and The Ramones. Nothing united them except a vaguely anti-corporate stance and a belief in art (well, maybe not The Ramones so much). I remember thinking that hardcore was far too monolithic, too fashion conscious, and too tightly policed, while the hardcore folks thought all the rest of us were sell-out wussies. We didn't mind. They did. Geogre 03:44, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

Dominican Republic childhood

I am needing information on children raised in the Dominican Republic.

How are they weaned and when?

What type of toys do they have for their infants?

Please sign your name with four tildes (~).
Try going to Category:Wikipedians in the Dominican Republic.
Russian F 16:49, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

NGO Registration Law

I am looking to learn more about the specific legal process of registering a non-governmental organization in various countries (specifically, the United States and the UK, but also any other comparisons available), so that I might have a better understanding of the process of registering NGOs in Japan (for which I already have information) by comparison. Specifically I'm interested in what standards are required by governments' laws (is recognition dependent on the group's purpose, membership size, sources of funding, nature of activities engaged in, or can anyone with a name and a pen just fill out a form and charter themself an organization?) in order to achieve recognition, tax-exempt status, or any other associated benefits.

Any pointers would be most appreciated. Thanks,

61.7.120.10 03:29, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

In the US anyone can set up an NGO without any registration requirement. To be tax-exempt, however, it must be either a nonprofit organization or a not-for-profit organization (there is a subtle difference between the two). StuRat 04:22, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

Could you elaborate on this subtle difference? The two wikilinks above redirect to the same aricle, wich appears to consider the two terms as being synonymous. --Lambiam^Talk 08:22, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

An ONG may finance its aims with collections only. Another may have a commercial activity, selling postcards, calendars, shirts ... for another charitable or lobbying aim. May commerce, or its percentage in global earnings, be the basis of the subtility that Stu indicates ?

Here is a source which discusses the difference: [2] StuRat 02:01, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

It was clear as mud, but it covered the ground. --Lambiam^Talk 20:27, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

Canada and the EU

Does Canada enjoy a closer relationship with the EU than the United States does? Bhumiya (said/done) 05:12, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

None that I can think of. Loomis 09:37, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

Not as far as I know on any formal level. For obvious reasons Canada has some closer ties with the UK (not as many as you might think) but not the EU. DJ Clayworth 13:16, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

Relations between nations are economical first, and then political. The EU may feel close, but does it sell and buy more than the US ? --DLL 16:56, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

Cassius Longinus

I searched through all the articles "Cassius Longinus" and "Cassia gens" but I couldn't find the one that I want. I would like to know every particular about "Centurion" Cassius Longinus whose lance pierced Jesus-Christ's side. In France, Cassius Longinus is known as Saint Longin (but no more details are available).In the Philippines, Cassius Longinus is considered as a great saint: every year, men wear "masks" with a kind of roman helmet and blood running from the right eye (of the mask). Legend has it that Cassius Longinus was one-eyed and that when piercing Jesus-Christ's side, he received some blood in his eye and recovered the use of his right eye. But, what I need, is more details about Cassius Longinus' life and why he is such a great figure in the Philippines and nowhere else.
Thank you if you can help me.Marie5952

The name does not occur in the Bible or any historical document. I don't know the origin of the legend. Perhaps it plays a role that this is one of the three names appearing in the ninth and lowest level of hell in Dante's Inferno, together with Judas Ischariot. In the biblical narrative it isn't even clear the spear man is a centurion; John 19:34 just has "one of the soldiers pierced Jesus' side with a spear". There is a centurion in Mark 15:39, who is reported to have said: "Truly this man was the Son of God!". There is no specific reason or argument to link the two. --Lambiam^Talk 08:52, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

Try Longinus (hagiography). Remember that this caracter is apocryphal (meaning largely invented). Flamarande 08:56, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

I've never read them but there was a series of books about this character, all fictional. The story was that Jesus cursed him with immortality for sticking a spear in him & the books are his story. Could this be what you're thinking of? AllanHainey 11:37, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

This sounds as though it's mixing in elements of the Wandering Jew story. Grutness...wha? 12:50, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

See also Spear of Destiny. JackofOz

Also Holy Lance. Adam Bishop 15:26, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

[Do not underestimate the hypothesis that] in the Philippines, Christian missionaries might have propagated a specific cult to abate some similar cult also related to a broken eye - or a spear - or a mask. The Church had Jesus born on Dec., 25, notwithstanding what Mary would have said, because of old pagan solstice feasts near that date. --DLL 16:53, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

" African American Detective Novelist"

I read an article about an author but can't recall his name. He was born in the US (Harlem, perhaps?), but his family moved to France when he was young, where I believe his father had Professorship. He grew up to write detective or murder mysteries in the 50's-60's(?) known for their surrealism, because the brutal Harlem in his books was essentially reimagined from his childhood. I believe their was a major collection of his work published within the last 10 years. Do you think you can help me? Thank you so much.

Have you tried looking for a familiar name in African American literature? Maybe it's Chester Himes. VdSV9•♫ 17:37, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

Maybe Walter Mosley?--Anchoress 19:06, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

He's wonderful, but he doesn't fit the profile of the question. Geogre 19:30, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

Not a kibbutz, but a moshab?

I was watching an episode of the [Shalom Sesame] video series, that mentioned a "moshab", after talking about a kibbutz. The said that in a "moshab", they own the land themselves, and there are several other thing different in their operations than a kibbutz. What is the correct word that I'd be looking for? -- Zanimum 17:40, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps a moshav. --Kainaw ^(talk) 17:53, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

Thank you so much, this is exactly what it was! -- Zanimum 18:15, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

Free Music Video Download...!!!

Anybody Knows a Free Music video & Movie Trailors download Site....!!!

I'm finding some music videos & Trailors for an urgent matter..

Thank you. A music lover

uh, not sure if this is what you want but You Tube, you can get most movie trailers at Apple. Nowimnthing 19:13, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

Try VSpot; not exactly downloads but an online music video player. EvocativeIntrigue _{TALK | EMAIL} 22:25, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

Aw c'mon guys, you know what he was asking for. Try P2P, especially bittorrent. -- Миборовский 00:46, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

jobs for kids

My 13 yr. old nephew lives in rural tennesse and is way too board haveing nothing to do, no place to do it, and no $ to do it with. He does have access to a computer but has no transportation access to go anyplace in person. His poor dad and mom are a little tired haveing him about as a full time couch spud. What would you do in this situatution? Helpfull advice most wellcome. Thanks (Hobgoblin) 19:37, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

Take away the television/games and see what his hobby is. He may learn to work on the car. He may work in the garden. He may become a computer programmer. He may start learning foreign languages. He may sit and cry all day that he doesn't have a television or video game to waste his time. --Kainaw ^(talk) 19:43, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

Send him to volunteer for the Summer Reading Club at the local library [3]. Even in rural Tennessee there should be one not that far away. Nowimnthing 19:55, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

Send him to the United States Marine Corps, or their civilian counterparts the Boy scouts asap, and he will probably hate you for it for the rest of his life :). Seriously now, you are asking Wikipedia for family advice? I don't think we are qualified to give such counsel. Your nephew just needs to join a local team of football, soccer, basketball, whatever. Or perhaps a nice girl-friend. Flamarande 19:57, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

A) I agree with the 'family advice' thing above. B) What do the parents do? If they work outside the home, why not enrol him in a day camp or something and drop him off on the way to work? If they work in the home, enlist his help. If they don't work, then have him participate in whatever activities they engage in. If all they do is watch TV and play video games, then this is obviously a turf war and we shouldn't get involved. :-)--Anchoress 20:13, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

His dad works all day everyday (almost) mom is a semi-pro housenfrau & suby teacher dureing the school year. None of suggestions offered seem to be of aid as most are unavailable due to transportation problems (distance, lack of autos, etc.) Can a kid be a self taught computer progamer? Summer time blues are still ensueing. Any more ideas folks? Thanks 20:36, 21 June 2006 (UTC) (Hobgoblin)

Sounds like you or they are more interested in finding reasons why something can't be done instead of just doing it. Get the kid outside, have him cut the grass, whitewash the fence, build a stone fireplace, walk to town, find a job, whatever. Sell some crap on eBay and buy a bicycle. And yeah, anybody can be a self-taught programmer, even a no-good layabout like Bill Gates. --LarryMac 20:50, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

I know many self-taught programmers, including some kids. The Logo programming language was specifically designed for young people. I've also heard of kids learning the ABC programming language with success and with just a little guidance. --Lambiam^Talk 22:35, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

• If he's too far away to get a job outside the home, then why not give him chores and reward him with an allowance if he does them. Then he's got cash too. Building model planes and flying them could be fun too. - Mgm|^(talk) 08:23, 22 June 2006 (UTC)`

The parents get him to do school work, and study so he would be head of class. This type of work will keep him productive and probaly would be of more value to him than a summer job or sport.

Bigamy in Ontario

I have a question regarding bigamy in Ontario. My friend was married January 2000 in Mexico, barefoot on a beach by December of the same year, they separated. Neither obtained a divorce. They thought that because the marriage was never registered in Ontario that the divorse would have to be done in Mexico, neither was about to return to Mexico, where they thought they would have to go for a divorce, so they called it a wash. My friend remarried, a year later, they obtained a valid marriage license in Ontario and married in Ontario, her new spouse was fully aware of the situation in regards to the marriage in Mexico. Since, they have separated and he, to be vindictive has claimed bigamy...Now, she is on charges of bigamy, she has spoken to three lawyers who cannot help her. She is a single mom with four children and is facing jail time in July for something that she did not have the mental intention to commit this crime. I guess I am wondering if there is any one or any thing that any of you with bright minds can think of that may help my friend and her children? We would all appreciate it so much...Thank you

Your best advice: get a lawyer. No judge in any court cares what the people at the Wikpedia reference desk think. --Kainaw ^(talk) 20:59, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

Obviously she can't afford a good lawyer, otherwise we wouldn't be having this discussion. Who are these three lawyers she's spoken to? They obviously don't know the slightest bit about criminal law. Unfortunately, criminal law is not my specialty either, but at least I'd do the decent thing and point her in the right direction, rather than throw my hands in the air as these shlocks seem to have done.

First of all, if a competent lawyer is beyond her means, she can obtain what the Americans call a public defender (I honestly don't know what the proper Canadian term would be in English). She could contact the local police or the local courthouse and explain the situation, and they should be able to set her up with such a lawyer free of charge. Of course public defenders aren't known to be the best lawyers in the world (to put it mildly! But I shouldn't generalize, some may be excellent,) so a good deal of research on her part would be of great help.

I do remember from my years at McGill that law schools tend to have free legal clinics, where law students get programme credit by doing their best to help people out with their legal problems.

I'm not sure where you're located in Ontario, but there are at least six law schools that I can think of in the province: University of Windsor, Western, U of T, York (Osgoode Hall), Queens and University of Ottawa. I suggest you call any one of those law schools, ask to be refered to their legal aid clinic, and (should they have one, which I'm almost certain they all would) tell them your situation. If one's no good try any of the others. They'll be eager to help, and they'd actually probably be able to add a lot more to your case than by letting the public defender go it alone.

In any case, "Mariage and Divorce" is a federal jurisdiction, and therefore the province you're in isn't really relevant; the law is the same throughout Canada. So should all else fail, you can always get in touch with McGill's clinic and they would be able to give you appropriate information. Good luck and feel free to ask any follow-ups including how to get in contact with McGill should the need arise! Loomis 23:12, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

I'm afraid this sounds as clear a case of bigamy as could be. To paraphrase, "They got married, it was too much trouble to divorce, so they forgot about it instead". Instead of seeking legal advice on how to get off, your friend would be better advised to seek legal advice on how to minimize the punishment. Notinasnaid 09:31, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

I disagree. The clearest case of bigamy would be: "here's my wife...and here's my other wife"; a scenario where the individual clearly has the intention of having two spouses. In the criminal law, intent is a major component. This individual clearly did not intend to have two husbands, but simply, and perhaps negligently, failed to "officially" divorce her first husband. Even if she was found guilty, I can't see a judge imposing any serious punishment such as actual jailtime. BTW, the prescribed sentence for the crime of bigamy in Canada has no minimum, meaning a judge can choose to sentence the accused to no jailtime whatsoever, but merely what amounts to a tiny slap on the wrist, (i.e. a small fine, and possibly even no punishment at all...but I'm not 100% on that one,) with a MAXIMIUM sentence of five years imprisonment. Loomis 13:16, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

Ha!!! Forget the above paragraph!!! (Actually don't forget it, it's still relevant, but what I've just discovered is EXTREMELY interesting, and would serve as an invaluable tool in this situation). The questioner mentioned that "her new spouse was fully aware of the situation in regards to the marriage in Mexico" (i.e. that they she was not officially divorced). Welllll...according to s.290(1)(a)(ii) of the Criminal Code of Canada: "Everyone commits bigamy who, in Canada...knowing that another person is married, goes through a form of marriage with that person..." In other words, the vindictive prick who's accusing her of bigamy is himself equally guilty of bigamy!! I suggest the questioner should report the second husband to the police, accusing him of bigamy, and then wait to see what happens once the smoke clears. If anything, he'd get a taste of his own medicine!

Of course this may pose a problem when it comes to proof. If he denies that he knew, it's a simple matter of he said/she said, and her accusation might not fly. It would be great if she had some hard evidence that he knew, such as, perhaps, a saved love-letter indicating that he was aware she was not yet "officially" divorced but wanted to marry her anyway "because Mexican marriages don't count in Canada anyway" or something like that. Some sort of proof like that would be invaluable. Loomis 13:16, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

If she was married to a guy who was already married, then he is being bigamous. Not her, obviously, I mean, for what I understand of bigamy is, you have two spouses, and she had only one! It just doesn't make sense to me that she is being accused of anything, so I suggest she goes with the Chewbacca Defence. VdSV9•♫ 15:51, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

V, I think you may be misunderstanding the situation (or perhaps I am, in which case I'd be grateful to anyone who can correct my misunderstanding). The question was actually rather difficult to follow and phrased in a rather confusing manner, so I don't think either one of us can be blamed for misreading it. Yet, I'm pretty sure I've got the situation straight, and I'll try to boil down the question to the essential facts (again, correct me where you feel I've got it wrong):

The accused got married to Mr. X in Mexico in January 2000. About a year later, they separated, but to-date have never officially divorced. A year later, the accused got remarried in Canada to a certain Mr. Y. Apparently Mr. Y was fully aware that the accused and Mr. X had never officially divorced. Now the accused and Mr. Y have separated. To be vindictive, Mr. Y has apparently filed a complaint with the authorities, charging the accused with the crime of bigamy, since she married him while she was still legally married to Mr. X.

The situation is of a WOMAN being charged with bigamy for having two husbands, not the other way around.

Legal definitions often defy common sense and/or common dictionary definitions. A perfect example is the legal definition of the word "person". According to common sense and its simple dictionary definition, a "person" is defined simply as a "human being". However according to the law, corporations are equally considered as persons (unless the term "person" is qualified by another term. For example, one would have to add the qualifier natural to the term "persons" in order to refer specifically to human beings and exclude corporations).

Similarly, the "dictionary" and "common sense" definition of bigamy is: "the act of marrying someone while legally married to someone else". Apparently, though, the Canadian legislator has chosen to criminalize not only the dictionary definition of a bigamy, which would define a bigamist as only one who marries while still being legally married to someone else, but, as well, as I've just recently discovered, the act of knowingly participating in a bigamous marriage, i.e., marrying someone who is already legally married.

The law redefines/broadens words all the time to suit its purposes, as it's apparently easier to redefine/broaden an existing term than to just invent an entire new one.

In any case, while in ordinary English parlance Mr. Y would not be considered a bigamist, according to Canadian Criminal law he has in fact committed the crime of bigamy.

I'd love to get a comment from the original questioner, as the whole issue has (obviously) become a very interesting one to me. One thing I'm a bit curious about, though, is what you mean when you say your friend is "facing jail time in July". That's got me a bit puzzled. What do you mean by that? Has a trial date been set for July? Has she already been tried and convicted and the sentencing hearing is scheduled for July? Loomis 18:36, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

See the Criminal Code, section 290 and section 291 as well as the definition of "form of marriage" in section 214. Based on the facts set out by the original poster, it seems pretty clear that the woman as well as her "husband" from the Ontario marriage are both guilty of the offence. Would either of them be sentenced to prison for this? Assuming it's a first offence, pretty unlikely. However, there can be implications to having a criminal conviction on your record even if the sentence is a conditional discharge, or whatever. If possible it might be a good idea to borrow money to pay for a decent lawyer. Also click here: Legal Aid Ontario. --Mathew5000 22:28, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

Hello this is the original questioner!! thank you all for reading and writing your opinions, we appreciate it.. My freind went to court last week with her useless family lawyer and was going to plead guilty. then the lawyer said he had to remove himself from the record and she would have to plead by herself, the judge gave her until july 7th to get independent legal advise. if she pleads guilty they are willing to give her one year probation, one month house arrest, and comunity service. This keeps her away from the trial where the crown wants2 yrs of jail time. You see she is single with four children 3,4, 12 & 13. So she feels trying to fight this in a trial is just not an option, rolling the dice per say on the future of her and her childrens lives if she is faced with jail. so she is a rock in a hard place, pleading guilty just to avoid the possibility. To comment on some of the things above yes Mr Y knew about the marriage but it just turns into he said she said, there is no proof that he knew...there is no real proof of anything, its really all about what she thought at the time, it all comes down to whether she can convince the judge that she didn t have the mental intent. (good luck on that one) We went to see a criminal lawyer last nite, he said maybe seek out a lawyer that is familiar with international/mexican/divorce/some one who knows alot about these subjects, who maybe could find a loop hole. How about the fact that she was drunk while married bare foot on the beach, or that the ceremony was performed in spanish, or that there was a marriage contract created right then and there on the marriage documents they signed on the beach that day. Marriage contract that they would split what they got together and they would each leave with what they had when they went in. Is that legal too? What about some of the Mexican laws? Is there anything that could invalidate this first marriage? It was only 10 month marriage...Does anyone know where she can obtain any of this information...Any ideas at all???

Considering that nude weddings can be legally valid, I think the fact she was merely barefoot is irrelevant. That said, if the Mexican marriage was invalid, then I imagine that would be a good defence to the bigamy charge. (Although, if the Mexican marriage was actually invalid but your friend believed it to be valid when she remarried in Ontario, then I think she'd be guilty of attempted bigamy under section 24.) I find it surprising that the crown is seeking a sentence of two years imprisonment. Even one month house arrest is a bit surprising. Does your friend have a past criminal record? Actually you might not want to discuss that on a public forum; there aren't many women charged with bigamy in Ontario in any given year, so anything you post here could easily find its way to Crown counsel or anyone else who knows your friend's name. Has your friend obtained a legal aid referral yet? Considering that the crown is seeking imprisonment, your friend definitely should not rely on law students' advice as someone suggested above. One option might be to instruct her lawyer to negotiate with Crown counsel for better terms on a guilty plea, such as a suspended sentence. It's perfectly legitimate to raise her parental responsibilities in negotiating that kind of plea agreement, and in submissions about sentence to the judge. --Mathew5000 03:48, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

God, right you are Loomis, I had misread it. Actually I had intentionally posted a misinterpretation of my own misinterpretation. funny. I thought that his friend was a mrs X who married to the mr Y who later married another mrs Z. So the chewbacca defense just might not work in this case... VdSV9•♫ 10:50, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

I only mentioned the idea of law students' advice because legal aid can be quite poor, and it's best to be as well informed as possible. The two years jailtime that the Crown is seeking is indeed abnormally harsh. I'm also assuming that Mr Y's testimony would be the key factor in the Crown's prosecution. In any event, I'd still consider reporting Mr. Y to the authorities and have him go through the hell your friend is going through. Perhaps the threat of reporting him might provide you with a bit of leverage when it comes to him deciding whether to testify or not? I don't know, I'm really in over my head at this point...this is way too far into the intricacies of criminal procedure for my knowledge. Just something you may want to discuss with your lawyer. I should also add the annoying old disclaimer, just to cover my ass (the preceeding legal information should be taken as that of a layman only, and NOT as any form of legal advice or opinion) Best of luck. Loomis 13:36, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

Just as an additional question: what kind of idiot would actually prosecute this woman and threaten her with jail time? In the U.S., this would be a quick way for a district attorney to find himself in need of a new job, especially once the publicity started. Are prosecutors not answerable for inane overprosecutions in Canada? - Nunh-huh 19:30, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

Indeed, this type of prosecution would seem to be highly unusual in Canada, as the Canadian justice system, were it to be criticized, would if anything be criticized for being insanely lenient. Two years jail time for this unfortunate mishap seems extremely odd by Canadian standards. If I (as an ordinary citizen...I must confess, I'm not a lawyer, I just say so because I'm a pathological liar.;)) somehow found myself in this unfortunate mess, I would almost certainly not plead guilty, or even agree to any plea bargain with the Crown. What I would do, (and again this is my opinion as an ordinary citizen, and we're no longer talking about Canada anymore, rather a fantasy dream planet called K-Pax;)) is this: Give Mr. Y a call, tell him that if he dares testify against me I'd report him to the police and accuse him with bigamy pursuant to s.290(1)(a)(ii) of the Criminal Code of K-Pax, imply in a subtle yet clear way that I indeed had evidence that he had apparently overlooked, proving the fact that he indeed knew I was never officially divorced from Mr. X, and wait a week or so to see what happens (a bluff: if he asks exactly what evidence you have, just tell him to "use his imagination" and end the conversation). If the Crown's charges don't mysteriously "vanish", I'd then file an actual police report accusing him of bigamy, then wait another week or so. If the Crown's charges still don't disappear by this time, I'd still take my chances in court, demand a trial by jury as constitutionally guaranteed by s.11(f) of the K-Paxian Charter of Rights and Freedoms, and let the trial proceed on it's course, confident that there's no way that 12 of my fellow K-Paxian peers would unanimously agree that I should be found guilty of any crime whatsoever, and even if they did, unanimously agree that I should actually face jail time. However, there is some risk involved, and I am not the mother of 4, nor even a true lawyer (as some of the tactics I'm suggesting may be considered "unethical" for a real lawyer to suggest), and we're not even talking about a real country here, rather the imaginary dream planet K-Pax. But that's just my insane fantasy opinion about an imaginary legal scenario on a fantasy dream planet, so I wouldn't take it all too seriously. Loomis 23:51, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

Who was that insane lunatic nutjob impersonating me above? ;) In answer to your question, Nunh-huh, Crown prosecutors are not elected as they are in (at least some) US jurisdictions. Nonetheless you're right, this prosecution seems insane by any standards, all the more so by Canadian standards, and the Justice Ministers who appoint the Crown Prosecutors are required to face the electorate each election.

That's why I'm so eager to advise the questioner to plead not guilty and let the thing run its course in court. But that would HIGHLY irresponsible of me, as I've never met the person, and I don't have all the information I'd usually require before offering a legal opinion. So let me be clear once again, Any and all information I've presented above shall by absolutely no means be considered as legal advice or opinion. In responding to the above question I have offered absolutely NO legal advice. The above shall and should be considered as nothing more than a casual exchange of ideas. Loomis 00:08, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

largest city

In one of Wikipedia's articles, it says that the largest city in the world by surface area is Kalgoorlie-Boulder, Western Australia. But recent researches I have done show that either the Tokyo Metropolitan Area or New York City's metropolitan area are the largest. Well...which one is it? Oh, by the way, these researches were done on Wikipedia as well so someone is putting false information on here.

A metropolitan area is not a city. Chuck 22:33, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

The city of God ? --DLL 16:29, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

ENBRIBD ----??????????

What is this? A corporation? It has something to do with natural gas processing. An industrial term? Maybe a german word? Many thanks 20:25, 21 June 2006 (UTC) (Hobgoblin)

• You're likely looking foor Enbridge.--Pharos 20:52, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

enbribd rides again

P.S. enbribd is in the great state of Mississippi if that helps any thanks. (Hobgoblin)

Is Juneteenth controversial?

I posted this at Talk:Juneteenth, but I think it might be better placed here, as it has little to do with that article. Anyway: I work for the local school board, and I'm currently in the process of preparing the school teachers' calendar. I added Juneteenth to the holidays listed this year (not all are school holidays, but a lot of them are included). My boss told me to remove it, claiming that Juneteenth is controversial and that many African Americans object to the name "Juneteenth". I have been unable to find anything on the web to support this view. Does anyone have any idea what my boss is on about? I was also forced to remove Chinese New Year and some other miscellaneous non-"standard" holidays. — BrianSmithson 21:00, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

It's not "controversial" in Texas! AnonMoos 02:41, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

Weird. If I tried very hard to imagine a reason to be offended by it, I guess I could come up with "it perpetuates an idiolectical name," but the people who'd be offended by that are surely a tiny minority, and since Ralph Waldo Ellison wrote a novel by that name, I can't imagine that those folks would have much cultural standing. "Chinese New Year" is exactly the kind of thing that a primary school teacher should want to know about, as it gives her or him a chance to teach the class about lunar new year's calendars and allows them to do something with their China unit. Odd. Geogre 02:59, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

I wonder if there could possibly be controversy about making Juneteenth and official state holiday of Louisiana? (I presume that's where the school is, based on your user page.) But even that seems unlikely given that state's legislators this year enrolled a house resolution (No. 134, "To recognize Wednesday, April 26, 2006, as Imperial St. Landry - Evangeline Day") that incidentally mentions the "Juneteenth Folklife Celebration in Opelousas" as a festival in which particular pride should be taken. And I agree with Geogre, "Chinese New Year" surely would belong on such a school calendar! Crypticfirefly 03:30, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

These were my thoughts exactly (regarding teachers wanting to know about these holidays in order to use them for lesson ideas). The argument against Chinese New Year, Ramadan, and some others was that we simply can't recognize every culture's holidays or it will get out of hand, and I understand that point. However, the Juneteenth thing really perplexed me. Kwanzaa got to stay, despite it being a legitimately controversial holiday (as witnessed by that article's talk page). Unfortunately, my boss is now out of town, and the calendar had to go to press, so there's nothing to be done now. Louisiana is slowly waking up to multiculturalism, but it will take some time yet. At least Mole Day got to stay. — BrianSmithson 18:46, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

nuclear non-proliferation policy

It is obvious that the effort to prevent nuclear proliferations extends into the very mathematics of nuclear decay but is such effort still justified with Iran and North Korea already in possession of sufficient knowledge to produce a bomb or is the establishment afraid that American citizens might with such knowledge be able to build the bomb too? ...IMHO (Talk) 22:31, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

Let's be honest and not tell "stupid white lies". We (almost everybody) are simply scared that regimes like the ones in Iran and North Korea, etc produce nuclear weapons. Nobody and nothing can garantue us that those weapons wouldn't be used, or perhaps even sold to other even more warlike regimes. Ok, so they tell us it us only for peacefull purposes, namely nuclear energy. And we have to believe in them because of what? They can't lie, perhaps? Their formidable peaceful past? Their links to terrorist groups (in the case of Iran) or their terrorist actions (in the case of North Korea)? So the US, who by the way isn't their friend and just might be on their target list, is keenly interested and will do almost anything to avoid that they build such nuclear power plants. It isn't fair (they might really want only nuclear energy) but tell me of a single thing that is fair in this world. Nobody wants to risk it or trusts in these guys. Flamarande 22:54, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

"We (almost everybody)"- I don't think you represent the views of almost everybody. I'm not as scared of the nations that COULD have nuclear weapons, as I am of the nations that currently DO have nuclear weapons.

At least those coutries which have the bomb haven't been using them since Hiroshima and Nagasaki, until now. Better the devil you know and all that. Flamarande 13:25, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

He certainly represents my views 100%! What nation that currently has nuclear weapons in the world is anywhere nearly as scary as the prospect of an Iran or a North Korea with nuclear weapons? The leadership of these two misfit states are utterly insane, and their nuclear ambitions MUST be stopped at all costs. Loomis 01:11, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

• The question of whether proliferation can be prevented by means of knowledge control is one which has been debated since before the first atomic bomb was dropped over Hiroshima. Most people agree that restrictions on scientific knowledge alone does not prevent proliferation. More important are controls of exports of bomb-related technologies and materials, and diplomatic control regimes (like the NPT). The U.S. government is not afraid that private American citizens will try and make nuclear weapons -- the creation of nuclear weapons requires a lot more than just theoretical knowledge (much of which is in the public domain by this point), and is not an undertaking that even a relatively small group of private citizens is likely to undertake (or be able to undertake without being noticed). I don't think the U.S. government is legitimately afraid of North Korea or Iran using the bomb, but fears rather that they will attempt to use it as a political tool to gain concessions and diplomatic power (much in the same way the U.S. tried to use the bomb in this way against the USSR before 1949, but they more or less failed in this respect, because Stalin et al recognized that the U.S. was not eager to go to war with the USSR, and that the U.S. only had a few bombs at the time anyway). I don't know how real a threat it is that either of those countries would give a nuclear bomb to terrorists -- it would be worse than just using it yourself, since 1. it would still probably be pretty clear who provided the bomb and so you'd still suffer any military/diplomatic consequences, and 2. it would mean relinquishing control over the bomb itself, which is dangerous both in terms of the plot being discovered or the bomb being used against yourself or misused somehow. If that situation is in the end strategically no different than them using the bomb against the U.S. (assuming they have bombs small enough to fit onto their hypothetical delivery vehicles which could hypothetically reliably reach the United States) then I think it would still fall into the category of "not very likely" (there are easier ways for these countries to make life miserable for Americans and to consolidate their own power than through getting annhilated -- compare again the post-WWII strategy of the USSR, which made use of all sorts of subterfuge rather than direct military conflict with the U.S., to their own benefit). --Fastfission 00:45, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

• An article you might find interesting is the Nth Country Experiment, where Lawrence Livermore lab determined that pretty much anybody with a PhD in physics could come up with reasonably reliable bomb designs based on information in the public domain by the mid-1960s. Of course, having a bomb on paper is a long way from having a usable bomb (or the means of delivering it). --Fastfission 00:45, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

People are always interested in that. Long ago I figured that if there were but ten clones of myself, I could completely eradicate the United States. Its simple, using terrorism tactics as well as wide scale annihilation of infrastructure and genocide, and not letting anybody know who it is so they don't know what is going on. — The Mac Davis] ⌇☢ ญƛ. 02:29, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

You'd trust a clone? ;-) You know the Franklin quote, "Three people can keep a secret if two of them are dead" or something like that. I'd suspect it is probably still the same with clones. --Fastfission 15:08, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

I've heard that Pantex actually lost several Davy Crockett (nuclear device)s at one time along with a few other warheads scheduled for disassembly and that no one knows for sure if it was just an accounting error or if those nuks actually fell into the hands of local residents, etc. What about such anomalies in our system (not to mention in other systems around the world) as being responsible for at least one weapon being available for use by someone? ...IMHO (Talk) 01:13, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

There are also 40 lbs. of weapons-grade plutonium "missing" from the accumulated transports over the years. The same question arises: are these multiple small accounting errors, grading and scale errors, or actual losses. It's the getting of the plutonium that is the biggest problem for the bomb maker. In a sense, Oakridge, Tennessee was the key to the US atomic bomb. Geogre 02:55, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

That's Oak Ridge, Tennessee (which manufactured the U-235 for Little Boy). Plutonium was produced at the Hanford Site in Washington State. I have no idea why Oak Ridge is so well known yet Hanford is generally unheard of. Odd the way history works. — Lomn | Talk 05:01, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

Oak Ridge is a lot bigger than Hanford, and a lot less remote, which is probably part of it. I find the idea of losing full warheads to be probably pretty unlikely, though bits of plutonium seems plausible. It's easy to mix up one metal versus another. It's hard to get confused about a warhead. --Fastfission 15:08, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

The Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty requires existing nuclear states to pursue plans to reduce and liquidate their stockpiles. As the U.S.A. has infact expanded its nuclear arsenel and restarted research into tactical nuclear weapons and Bunker buster's it would seem to be violating that treaty. Therefore it can't really be used as a legal force to prevent other states from similarly violating it and pursuing their own nuclear programs. If the nuclear states want to prevent others from developing nukes a good start would be adhering to previous agreements and treaties on nuclear weapons. AllanHainey 11:49, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

I hate to tell you this, but the following rules apply in maters of international politics: Laws are for the weak, all counties have broken past treaties, and noone trusts noone too much. The UN has no strength to enforce its own resolutions and is dependent of the most powerful countries, especially the US, Russia, China, UK, France. All countries care mostly about their own national interrests and will vote accordingly. Too many poor countries sell their votes for the highest bidder (nobody will tell it out loud though). Others will opose other countries because of all kind of shortsighted reasons. Nations will support other nations because the politicians will gain crucial votes (and cash, essential in paying publicity) this way. Almost everybody sells guns to almost everybody. Everybody is scared ot the Nuclear bomb. Its simply a rotten world, so accept as it is and do not dream of another one "that should be". If you don't like it, then please try to change the system from the inside. Flamarande 13:24, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

AllanHainey is exactly right that the U.S. has not been fulfilling its obligations in good faith under the treaty, but that is not a new thing (it has never really attempted to do that). It is one of the reasons that a lot of analysts thing the NPT isn't worth the paper it is written on, because it is very selectively enforced. I disagree with your approach, Flamarande -- diplomatic treaty regimes, though not perfect, often given a lot of political leverage. Everyone thought the Helsinki human rights accords were useless when the USSR signed them, but over time they played a major role in the country's policies towards their dissidents. But anyway these are political arguments not worth piecing over for the millionth time. :-) Allan, the U.S. hasn't actually expanded its arsenal any -- the research on the bunker busters is "officially" scrapped, and even that was most likely a modification of an existing warhead. The most recent U.S. "new nuke" debate is about the Reliable Replacement Warhead Program, but even that is more an instance of wanting to replace warheads rather than expand the warhead count. Even while saying this, though, I do believe that the U.S. has not been trying to reduce and liquidate its stockpile according to the provisions of the NPT, and I think it still has far more warheads than it needs for a credible second strike. --Fastfission 15:08, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

I agree with you and I suppose some politicians are really changing the system from whitin. Flamarande 18:36, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

Here's a little detail that might be worth pondering: Political scientists and military strategists are pretty much in agreement that during the cold war, even if one of the superpowers actually possessed the cold inhumanity necessary to snuff out a few hundred million lives at the press of a button, they were further restrained by the concept of mutual assured destruction or MAD.

In other words, as coldly genocidal as one side may have been, (a characteristic I wouldn't even ascribe to the Soviets, at least after Stalin's death,) the launching of a nuclear strike would be suicidal, as it would trigger an equally devastating nuclear response by the US. Say what you will about the Soviets, they may have been an aggresive, brutal, expansionist threat to the free world, but one thing they were not was suicidal. (And even from the Soviet POV, if that's your cup of tea, the Americans may have been heartless capitalist pigs, but they certainly could not be accused of being suicidal either).

Basically, then, for a REAL nuclear threat to exist, the state possessing such weapons would have to have a leadership governed by two specific traits: 1) genocidal tendencies, as well as 2) an "otherworldly" cause, one worth committing suicide and leaving this world for.

Fortunately, though, Iran is just looking for a cheap way to produce electricity. Loomis 17:06, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

So they tell us, but why should we believe them? Unfortunably these regimes are also not very stable (a bit like the old Soviet Union and the problem of Tchechnia) and crappy politicians like "Bush the believer" and "Blair his faithfull puppy" are scaring everyboby so that the frightend masses don't forget on whom to vote. And the "dude of Iran" which seems (at least to me) to be as faithful and intelligent as "Bush the believer" doesn't help things, with his ravings about the "international zionist conspiracy" and his proclamations that Israel should be transfered into Europe or else...

Notice how the "dude from Iran" is using the same tactics (he is banging on patriotism and the "Americans are going to kill us" besides the "Jews are going eat us alive" crap) for the same results, namely votes. The "dude from Iran" and "Bush the believer" and "Blair his faithfull puppy" are simply the three faces from a threesided "coin" called modern Democracy.

And if the Germans were able to elect Hitler (amid a enourmous economical and political crisis) and the peaceloving Americans made Nagasaki and Hiroshima who are we to tell that no people/country with the Nukes will use them? (I don't believe myself, I used the Hitler argument - I lost :) Flamarande 18:36, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

I think you missed my point. I often end my posts with an over-the-top, hyper-sarcastic sentence. Say what you will about Bush and Blair, I happen to disagree with you there, but it's not worth debating, because it's not essential to my point. However I must say that to equate US and UK democracy with that farce of a system they've got in Iran is more than a bit of a stretch. Again though, not relevant to my point and not worth debating.

My main point is that nukes are only truly dangerous when in the hands of people who would actually dare use them. To use nuclear weapons, as I tried in detail to explain would require a mindset governed by at least two essential factors: 1) A cold, grotesque indifference to the thought of genocide, as well as 2) a committment to ideals so radical that suicide is actually a viable tactic (perhaps because one may believe that one's religion might offer some sort of reward for it in the afterlife).

Say what you will about "Bush the believer" and "Blair his faithful puppy", but neither of them show any trace of these mindsets. Bush may be a deeply religious man, which may to many paint him as a fool...fair enough. Nonetheless, he's been in power for 5½ years now, and despite whatever one can say of the foolishnes of his faith, it clearly does not include any call for any sort of suicidal martyrdom. In fact quite the opposite, as a faithful Christian, Bush would likely consider any sort of suicide to be a rather grave sin. When's the last time you've heard of any Christian suicide bomber?

The "dude in Iran", on the other hand, seems to fit the bill as the most likely person to actually consider using nukes than pretty much any world leader I've ever come across. He clearly displays 1) genocidal tendencies (with all that mad ranting about wiping Isreal off the map), as well as 2) a religious conviction (radical Islam) that actually approves and indeed encourages suicidal martyrdom.

Say Iran finally accomplishes its goal of attaining nuclear weapons capable of reaching Israel. What's to stop that "dude in Iran" from committing "The mother of all suicide bombings" and launch a nuclear strike, prompting Israel to respond in kind with its nukes, and resulting in the complete obliteration of both countries, and the loss of tens of millions of lives? MAD would surely be no deterrent, as "the dude" (referring to him as "the dude" is by no means an insult to you...I think we're just both too lazy to actually go through the trouble of finding his real name (lol)) would surely rise up into paradise and be honoured as the greatest Islamic martyr of all time.

To sum up, genocidal tendencies, the belief in suicidal martyrdom and nuclear weapons have got to be the most dangerous and frightening mix imaginable. And THAT is why there is such a HUGE, FUNDAMENTAL difference between countries like the US, the UK, France, China, Russia, Pakistan, India and Israel possessing nuclear weapons on the one hand, and Iran on the other, and in turn is why the world must prevent Iran from obtaining nuclear weaponry, whatever the cost may be. Loomis 12:53, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

June 22

Can you be more specific? Perhaps you should read the wiki article June 22. (I know, I know! So now I finally get why the words "suitly emphazi" (or whatever) are so hilarious to all of you!) Loomis 12:50, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

Have you by any chance been enbribd? --Lambiam^Talk 01:05, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

Is that somehow related to pastatution? Loomis 01:12, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

ISTR we answered this question on June 17th - please don't repeat your posts. I also notice that "June 22" is also on the other Reference desk pages, and the rules at the top say not to cross-post. Grutness...wha? 02:32, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

Well, I think that's a rather narrow interpetation of the rules, Grutness. I see "June 22" as an entirely separate question from "June 17", requiring just as much serious consideration. JackofOz 04:05, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

It seems apparent to me that, being a higher number, 22/17 of the attention given "June 17" is required here. — Lomn | Talk 05:02, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

The Da Vinci Code DVD

I was going to ask this on the talk page of The Da Vinci Code, but this seemed more appropriate. Does anyone know when the DVD is going to be released? I can't seem to find that anywhere.--Rayc 02:08, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

You'd have to ask the studio. I doubt that any release date has been made public yet. The film has only just been released in cinemas, after all. DVD release is normally about a year later. --Richardrj 09:20, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

Normally it goes: Sneak Peak (the reviewers see it), Major Release, Second-Tier (discount theater) Release, Airline Release/Pay-Per-View, DVD/Rental Release, Television Release. Channels like HBO and Showtime have tried to get movies before they are available for purchase, but I don't think that's ever worked. Also, some movies go in a different order for various reasons. Pulp Fiction was in art houses only for a few weeks, but was too popular. So, it went to major release. First Blood was a flop that went to HBO, where it became so popular that it went to video. Someone recently released a movie in major release and video at the same time (Steven Soderheim???). As for the dates, it is all about the money. When you get the money you need from one step of the release cycle, you move to the next. --Kainaw ^(talk) 16:13, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

I think the film that went to theatres and DVD simultaneously was Crash, 2005. The director and producers were afraid that it would never get sufficient distribution and felt that they had a great movie. They did. In that case, the strategy worked, in terms of critical support and word of mouth. I'm not sure how well it did in theatrical release before the Academy Awards, but it had a new release afterward. Geogre 13:00, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

I just found it. I was thinking of Bubble. Released in Movies, Cable, and DVD at the same time. --Kainaw ^(talk) 17:03, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

How-to for creating urban vinyl figures?

I can't seem to find any information in regards to how one goes about designing and creating urban vinyl figures (like the work of Michael Lau, and stuff on kidrobot.com). Anybody have any leads? Javguerre 02:28, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

The stuff on kidrobot is just vinyl stuffed dolls. Instead of using cloth to make a doll, use vinyl. Basically, you have to learn to sew first. Then, practice with the material you want to use. --Kainaw ^(talk) 12:41, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

Liqueur Reference Sources?

I'm currently trying to build the article on Parfait Amour on this very website, but have had some considerable trouble finding any reference material regarding the non-mixology aspects of the drink (like history, variation, definitions of the drink, etc). I'd like to ask, does anyone know of any useful references regarding this? Preferably either web-available, or conceivably available in Australia. -- Kirby1024 04:29, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

Is it a psychedelic rock ??

Hi! i've been wondering for long about the genre of the following song : Song name - Bheegi bheegi Film - Gangster (2006) Singer - James (Nagar baul)

   You can listen to the track here

In case, you are unable to do so , you may try googling for this Bollywood track. Though i know nothing about Genres of song, i think, it might be a Psychedelic Rock .I don't know whether lyric would be a factor!?!

Thanking you in anticipation,--Pupunwiki 05:37, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

---

Reformatted comments to make them easier to read

After a quick Google search, I came across this page which seemed to think the genre was "devotional/religious", but I have no idea if this is the song you're looking for! EvocativeIntrigue _{TALK | EMAIL} 12:34, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

   No that's certainly not a devotional song... & the singer is
different too. Anyhow, thanks for spending your time.
                --Pupunwiki 12:54, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

Classifying one song as psychedelic rock can be difficult. I would refer to articles such as the one about Psychedelic music for information about what is generally considered 'Psychedelic'.

--LBJacob09 8:35, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

Assistance

I am currently taking part in a quiz and was wondering if you could help me with some questions.

http://img221.imageshack.us/my.php?image=2b7ox.jpg who is this a statue of?

http://img214.imageshack.us/my.php?image=41kt1.jpg What this plant is? Its named after the creature it attracts.

Youre help would be much appreciated as always.

I don't know the answers, but I saw you had another link to a picture of a bridge which you have now taken down. Did you get the answer to that one? I'd like to know where it is - it looked like an awesome bridge. Thanks. --Richardrj 15:47, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

Its called the Maulli Bidge over the river Tarn.

So does anyone have an idea on my questions?

I believe the plant is a buddleia aka butterfly bush, or a summer lilac.

The geezer on the plinth is Pushkin. MeltBanana 01:28, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

I thought it was Pushkin! Is that the Hermitage behind him? User:Zoe|^(talk) 01:35, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

No the Mikhailovsky Palace or Russian Museum but only a short walk away. MeltBanana 02:16, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

Australia belongs to Asia or Oceania?

From my general knowledge, Australia is a Oceanian country. However, Australia is now a member of Asian Football Confederation, but not Oceania Football Confederation.

I am asking if Australia belongs to both Asia and Oceania, if not, why Australia could join the Asian Football Confederation.

Australia is in Oceania, the football team recently left the OFC and joined the AFC because it was fed up with the big fish little pond scenario. Basically, they were fed up being the best of the worst, baceause the OFC doesnt get any world cup places, and Australia has to play-off with losing CONCACAF teams. Philc _T^E_C^I 16:50, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

You triple posted this question! dont do that. Philc _T^E_C^I 17:28, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

Well, consider India. India is a subcontinent. India is in ASIA. India is in south Asia, and it is a subcontinent. Consider Australia. Australia is a continent. This fact might seem obvious, but it bears repeating: AUSTRALIA is a CONTINENT. And again: AUSTRALIA...is a... CONTINENT. Hope this helps. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.131.189.199 (talk) 17:07, June 22, 2006 (UTC)

These are nice lyrics. Do you have a melody that goes with it? --Lambiam^Talk 17:59, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

It is pretty easy to look at Asia and Oceania and see the maps. But, the question was about sports. Why are the Kansas City Chiefs in the AFC West when Kansas City is about as close to the middle of the United States as you can get? Sports divisions don't always make sense geographically. --Kainaw ^(talk) 17:31, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

(After edit conflict) That response is a little too abrupt I think. You may wish to moderate your tone in future. Australia is both a country and a continent. The term Oceania is often mistaken to be the name of the continent, but is in fact just a name for the region. Likewise, the name Australasia is used for a slightly different region centred around Australia. One of the reasons for Australia deciding to leave the Oceania Football Confederation to join the Asian Football Confederation is that the OFC does not currently have a guaranteed spot in the World Cup finals. As to why they were alowed to change confederations, that is probably a choice for FIFA. Road Wizard 17:49, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

What a pillock shouting autralia is a continent at him, no-one mentioned continents, only football federations. Philc _T^E_C^I 22:43, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

Last time I checked, athletic organizations don't exactly have much authority in political or geographical matters. The Toronto Blue Jays are in the American League, but that doesn't mean that the entire city has been annexed by the US. Similarly, the National Hockey League began in Canada, but NHL teams are now overwhelmingly located in the US. What "nation" is the NHL refering to then? The same can be said of the National Basketball Association. Now with the Toronto Raptors, what "nation" is the NBA referring to? Even the Canadian Football League, some years back included several teams located in US cities, namely Las Vegas, Birmingham, Memphis, Shreveport, San Antonio and Sacramento. Does that mean that these six important US cities were briefly part of Canada? My simple point is that the "league" that a particular sports team decides to join is pretty much irrelevant when it comes to political or geographic matters. Loomis 21:58, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

Hope this response meets with your approval, RoadWizard, and that the mild sarcasm was acceptable. Also, I can't help but tell you that I believe you were overly judgemental with regard to one of the responses above. A little levity never hurt anyone. An apology would seem to be in order. Loomis 21:58, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

Why me? I think RoadWizard's admonishment was meant for lyricist 82.131.189.199. --Lambiam^Talk 22:22, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

Why in the world would I apologise to Lambian when my comments were directed at 82.131.189.199. Lambian's comment was added 10 minutes after mine. I assume that you are trying to be humorous, but I can't quite see the joke. As to why I said the comment by 82.131.189.199 was too abrupt is because very few people I have encountered know that the proper name for the continent on which Australia rests is the "Australian continent" and I don't think you can call the tone of 82.131.189.199's comment mild. Road Wizard 22:21, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

I meant apologize to 82.131.189.199. I originally wrote Lambiam but quickly changed it when I realized it was 82.131.189.199 you were refering to. Sorry Lambiam, my mistake. As for my remark, no, I wasn't trying to be humourous, just trying to point out that while 82.131.189.199's "tone" may have been somewhat inappropriate, your taking it upon yourself to admonish him/her was far more innapropriate. If someone says something truly offensive, tell them so. However, if you merely disapprove of their "tone", please keep it to yourself. We're all grown-ups here, we don't need to be chided by self-righteous, self-appointed "wiki-police". Loomis 22:41, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

The Football Federation Australia has a good explanation as to why Australia wanted to join the Asian confederation. The Asian Confederation is likely to have accepted Australia because it offered several opportunities for them - getting the AFC Champions League, the Asian Cup, and a bunch of World Cup qualifiers televised in a wealthy country. The only country for whom it'll be a major downside is Saudi Arabia, who won't be making up the numbers at the next World Cup unless Asia gets another place (the Saudis are the worst team in the Cup by some margin). Geographically, the time zones (which are the most important thing for televising the games) work better for Japan, South Korea and China (the big TV markets) from Australia than they do for the countries in the Middle East.

In any case, if you want some examples of geographical anomalies, most of Turkey is geographically in Asia, as is the majority of Russia. But those countries play in the UEFA competitions. --Robert Merkel 00:32, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

As does, of course, Israel, who is geographically completely in Asia, but plays in UEFA because of the Arab boycott -- half of their matches in Asia would be politically charged. At one time, interestingly, Israel were a member of the Oceania Football Confederation, again to avoid being in the same confed as all of the Arab countries. --ByeByeBaby 01:46, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

Australia is a Western nation that's geographically part of South-East Asia and also part of Oceania but a contintent in our own right. We're also simultaneously "down under" and "over the top" (about going through to the next round at the 2006 FIFA World Cup). Basically, we don't where the hell we are. But we don't really care, that's what makes us so wonderful. JackofOz 02:24, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

Russia is an interresting case. Europe stretches east to the Ural mountains, so the biggest geographical part of Russia is Asian, but most Russians are Europeans. And it's people who play football, not land. :)

Another anomaly is the World series, which is an exclusively US affair, except for one Canadian team.

About politically charged games. Is this taken into consideration when forming groups in the world championship? Since most teams are from Europe and South America there won't be too much of a problem, but some games might still be tricky, especially with the US. Imagine US-Iraq or US-Vietnam. Or matches between former Yugoslavian countries. DirkvdM 07:03, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

I don't think there's much animosity between Americans and Vietnamese anymore, and of course the official government of Iraq is a U.S. ally. On the other hand, a U.S.-Iran or U.S.-North Korea match might be an issue. As for the former Yugoslavia, there's certainly been some sporting controversy there. Just look at our article on Srbe na vrbe! Bhumiya (said/done) 10:05, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

krakatoa

what is the nearest town or city near the indonesian volcano krakatoa?

If you go to the article Krakatoa, it has the geographic coordinates for the volcano. The coordinates are hyperlinked; click on them, and it'll take you to a page where you can view the coordinates at a number of map sites. Choose one of those (I used MapQuest) and zoom out until you can see the areas around it. Just eyeballing it, it looks like Cinangka is closest. Chuck 21:20, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

Painting

http://i5.tinypic.com/15clj4k.jpg

My final Quiz Question that i`m stuck on... no-one even has a clue. It apparently depicts the arrival of a famous figuer into a European City. Help is much appreciated.

Just from the appearance, it looks Italian. The problem with that is that the people look French. The flag is red, white, and blue - but top to bottom like the Netherlands' flag. The person arriving is apparently dead. My first guess is that it is a Pope, but it could be any high religious figure. It is certainly Catholic if it is old due to the "Vive Jesus" on the banner on the right. You point out that it is the arrival of a famous figure. The first thing that comes to mind is Saint Nicholas. His remains were returned to Italy after his death and he was often depicted as having a pointy hat and a red robe. Perhaps that will help. Maybe it will lead you off in the complete wrong direction. --Kainaw ^(talk) 23:52, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

The larger vertical flag seems to be red, blue and yellow, and these colours also feature on the soldiers' caps. Could be set in Romania. JackofOz 00:02, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

Brussels + Christ, And did those feet in ancient times wander round Belgium? MeltBanana 01:51, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

So that would be red, black and yellow, hung side-ways. They haven't managed to build Jerusalem yet, though, afaik. Would give too much trouble anyway, given the quibbling over the other Jerusalem. DirkvdM 07:11, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

In case anyone would like to know, Adrian Henri wrote a poem based on it called The Entry of Christ into Liverpool. It's in The Mersey Sound (revised edition). He also did a painting of the same name as a homage to James Ensor. Tyrenius 18:57, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

Movies about the Free French Forces

Recently I have watched a couple of French films set during the Vichy regime/German occupation: Lacombe, Lucien and Monsieur Klein. Are there any films relating to the Free French Forces and/or Charles de Gaulle in London? I don't mean documentaries. For example, are there any feature films that depict any of the following:

• Destruction of the French Fleet at Mers-el-Kebir
• Battle of Dakar
• Appeal of June 18 (1940-06-18)
• The Chequers Accord of 1940-08-07
• Normandie-Niemen squadron
• Battle of Bir Hakeim
• De Gaulle arriving in Algeria (1943-05-30)
• Comité français de la Libération nationale (1943-06-03)

--Mathew5000 22:11, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

• Well, there's a Franco-Russian film entitled Normandie - Niémen; there's a French TV movie entitled Mers El-Kebir. --jpgordon∇∆∇∆ 22:31, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

Thanks. I was hoping for films available on DVD in North America. Considering that France has one of the largest filmmaking industries of any country in the world, I would think they would have made some big-budget films about the French Free Forces, and also about Charles de Gaulle and the government in exile during the War. --Mathew5000 03:13, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

trivia question

The US gave birth to him but what state claims him as their own?

I think you'll have to be a bit more specific on that one; it's far too general, as it could technically apply to any ex-pat American. Ziggurat 22:31, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

George Washington / Washington--Melburnian 07:25, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

That's a clever answer, but of course there was no US when GW was born, so this may be a flawed riddle if that's the correct answer. --K

You're right..hmmm...how about Éamon de Valera / Republic of Ireland (The Irish State)?--Melburnian 11:30, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

June 23

The name "Hickey"

Hi folks. I just did a quick search on Wikipedia on my family name, "Hickey". What I didn't see kind of surprised me. My name is Robert Hickey, which is not important. What is important is the fact that I have been married to now Brigadier Allison Hickey for the last 21 years. Ok, congrats, but that isn't important. What is important is that Allison is a graduate of the first class of women from the Air Force Academy Class of 1980 (maiden name Hilsman). I know, because I was there, I am class of '78. Now, the interesting fact is that she is the first Female Graduate of the Air Force Academy to actually pin on General Officer. Notice, I didn't say she was the first one to be promoted to General Officer, but she is the first one to be promoted and actually pin it on. Her pin on date was November of 2004. Just thought you all might want to know that, in your "Famous Hickey" Wikipedia reference area. Enjoy. Col (Ret) Robert A. Hickey, class of '78

That is probably sufficient for entering into the article. You can do it yourself, you know. If she has gone on to have a truly notable career (standing out above and beyond other officers in the USAF), then she very well could need an article on her. If she's mainly of interest to the wider world for her accomplishment as the first GO, then add her name regularly to the list of famous Hickeys. If she should have an article on her then put two square brackets before and after her name when you add it. Geogre 03:51, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

Identify this clothing accessory

I need help identifying two garment accessories. I see them so often in old comedy films or cartoons but I don't know what they are. What do you call the flaps sticking out at the front and at the back of this guy's neck:

http://img152.imageshack.us/img152/9141/shirtfrock4vv.jpg

(The image is a vidcap of Disney's Peter Pan.) --Perfecto 03:27, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

It's a dickey. A kind of faux shirtfront usually worn with a tux.--Anchoress 03:45, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

From 'hickey' to 'dickey'. I have to ask ... what would a 'lickey' be then? :) DirkvdM 07:16, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

hmm...tricky... Grutness...wha? 09:33, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

Ask mikey. VdSV9•♫ 10:52, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

You're not taking the mickey, are you? DirkvdM 17:42, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

We have an article on it at Dickie; didn't we already have this question? Sticky... СПУТНИК^{CCC P} 12:35, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

Thanks. Do they always flap outwards and upwards when loose from the waistband? Sorry I can't find any picture of it while not being worn. And is that a collar stiffener behind the guy's neck, or is that a part of the vest? --Perfecto 03:10, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

Legal question

If someone posts/trolls on an internet forum, and continues to do so after the forum bans his IP address, is that poster in violation of any US law? For someone with limited legal knowledge it is difficult to judge whether or not a legal threat (Stop or you will go to jail, or stop or we will file a civil suit) is legitimate or just an intimidation tactic. I certainly don't want to violate any law, but if my actions are protected under the first amendment, as I believe they are, I don't want to be intidated out of doing something that is legal. Thanks! Mayor Westfall 12:59, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

Just because something is legal does not mean it is necessarily "right."

I don't care about what your subjective opinion on morality, nor did I ask about it. That's why we have laws, and that is what I am asking about. -Mayor WF

I see how you got banned. DirkvdM 17:49, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

If you are deliberately attempting to circumvent security measures put up to prevent you from accessing another computer, that can in fact violate the law. However in the case of an internet forum it seems unlikely that such a thing would ever really go to court, and is most likely just an attempt an intimidation. The right to post things on someone else's computer (which is what posting to a website is, in fact) is not protected by the First Amendment anymore than you have the right to write on someone's private chalkboard. --Fastfission 16:28, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

First amendment to what in which country? Anyway, it's an interresting question. If your ip address gets banned it's not strictly you who got banned, is it? And speaking of countries, have they figured out how to deal with the internet yet? It's not bound to any country and can therefore not fall under any country's law, can it? I know this was a big issue a few years back, but I haven't heard of any 'solutions' yet. DirkvdM 17:49, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

I am not sure if it has been mentioned here already, but this question has been double posted. You may wish to read the related entry at Wikipedia:Reference desk/Miscellaneous#Legal question before trying to answer it here. Road Wizard 18:08, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

Can someone direct me to a law

There is a new law that bush signed very recently that deals with trolling (or anonomous trolling). Where can I find more information about this law. Does Wiki have an article on it? Thanks Mayor Westfall 13:01, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

Trolling can mean various things. I doubt whether there is a law against any of them, but please elaborate.--Shantavira 14:36, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

I posted on a forum, that claims not to have a [No Member-bashing Policy]--thus members are free to bash each other. A moderator bashed me, I bashed back. I got banned. I made a new account and called out his hypocrocy. I got IP Banned. I used proxy servers to bypass the ban and continued calling him out for being a hypocrite. Then he sent me an ominous legally-sounding email. I cant tell if it's just intimidation or if it is legitimate. I dont think Ive violated any laws...but legal matters are rather complex and I dont have full knowledge of every law...Mayor Westfall 17:52, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

Are you sure it isn't an anti-phishing law? Contrary to what most people believe, Congressional laws are VERY easy to find. Go to thomas.loc.gov. In the "Search Bill Text" box, type "phishing" and click on SEARCH. The big trick is remembering that Congress makes laws, not the President. --Kainaw ^(talk) 14:44, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

This may be an answer to both the above questions. There is, I believe, a US law which makes it illegal for an anonymous person to publish things n the internet "with intent to annoy, abuse, threaten, or harass any person". According to a (generally very unreliable) source this was signed by the President in January 2006. DJ Clayworth 14:55, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

That must be buried in some other law. All laws signed by Bush from Dec 2005 to present are on http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/L?d109:./list/bd/d109pl.lst:151[1-236](Public_Laws)[[o]]|TOM:/bss/d109query.html (Wiki doesn't like the format of the link, so you have to copy/paste it). --Kainaw ^(talk) 15:15, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, that's the one "with intent to annoy..etc" That law seems vauge. how can I tell if it has ever been used and if I am in violation of it? Mayor Westfall 16:17, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

The law you're talking about is this one, specifically this section. It is simply an updating of an old law which prohibited anonymous telephone harassment, and was part of a law regarding violence against women. The actual law itself does not contain the word "annoy"—this was widely misreported. The "annoy" part is in the older law. See this page for some interesting discussion. At worst it means that if you harass someone anonymously, it is legally the same as harassing them under your own name, as I understand it. --Fastfission 16:44, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

Ill-remembered Science-Fiction Short Story

I am being driven slowly mad by a vague memory of a sci-fi short story I read many years ago. It would ha ve been published in one of the monthly sci-fi magazines, possibly Isaac Asimov's Sci-Fi Magazine.

The general plot was of a race of aliens aiming to take over the world, using mind control either by radio or I think through music records. The main thing I remember about the story is that one of the central characters spoke only in quotes from Bruce Springsteen songs.

Does anyone remember this, have a citation, or have I made it up the depths of my fevered imagination? --Worm 13:02, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

Is this what you're thinking of? --Mathew5000 18:25, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

Definately not. ;) It was a published story in a science fiction periodical. --Worm 18:28, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

here is another ill-remembered SF (short) story: A spaceship pilot finds himself on a planet of intelligent plants. They have razon-sharp leaves and an intoxicating smell; the pilot ends up being cut into ribbons and digested by the plants and is enjoying himself immensely in the process. I know it sounds like a stupid plot, but if I remember it right the story had a really haunting quality. Ring any bells? dab (ᛏ) 18:33, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

QUSETION ABOUT EMO!!!!!11

SO IS LIKE FALL OUT BOY THE FIRST EMO BAND EVERZ?!?!?!?!?! I <3 THOS GUYZZ THE SINGER IS SO SEXXY

K THKZ FOR HELPIN ME OUT

BYE GUYZ LOLZ!!!!!!111

65.26.86.77 14:18, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

Gosh, B1FF is awfully active. Geogre 14:40, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

I think that Emo was the first Emo Band everz. --Kainaw ^(talk) 14:49, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

Sorry that wasn't biff -- 65.26.86.77 16:11, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

"Emo" pretty much doesn't mean anything, that's the problem. I've heard Galaxie 500 offered as first, and Mission of Burma, and just about anyone who didn't repeat what went before. Since no one knows what makes an "emo" band in the first place, no one can say who the first one was. I wouldn't worry about the label. Geogre 16:37, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

It means emotional rock. Philc _T^E_C^I 21:42, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

Yes, but if that's all that it means it includes Led Zeppelin and Pink Floyd. As a critical concept, it seems to have no distinctions in tempo, time period, instrumentation, production values, lyrical content, or keys. I always thought that Joy Division and The Cure were very gloomy and mopey, but they're not "emo." I thought that Bauhaus (band) was theatrical and self-consciously artsy, but they're not emo. Galaxie 500 is lo-fi, like a lot of independent acts, but there's nothing particularly that sets them apart from their counterparts, and yet they're "emo," and now "Fallout Boy" is emo? It doesn't seem to have any practical meaning. It's rock 'n roll, and it's either stuff you like or don't. Trying to create armed camps of listeners is a passtime of childhood. I saw the guys of ZZ Top at a Laurie Anderson show. Geogre 02:19, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

Well like all genres it has evolved slowly, and through combining with other genres and styles, then some band will take it, go mainstream, and be credited with "inventing" it. Philc _T^E_C^I 22:12, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

10th Legion Equestris

Hi, I am asking if any of you "Roman military history buffs" can check out when and where the X Legio - 10th Legion Equestris was founded. Don't use Wikipedia please, I have read the article Legio X Gemina but I am simply not convinced. I have also searched in some sites of the internet but I couldn't found something solid. It seems that the current view holds that this legion was founded in 58 BC. However I have found that this is not supported by Julius Caesar's book the "Commentarii de Bello Gallico - the Gallic Wars" (I have a translation by Penguin classics).

The story is the following: Cutting a deal with Pompey and Crassus (the First Triumvirate) Caesar recieves the governship of 3 provinces: Galia cisalpina, Galia Transalpina and Illyria. He also has 4 legions: VII, VIII, IX, and the X (I have confirmed this in the book "In the name of Rome" by Adrian Goldsworthy). The Helvetii are planning a migration. Caesar recruits another two legions: XI and XII (also confirmed by Goldsworthy). I have checked his book and he clearly describes these new legions as "new" and the other four ones as "veteran". So if the X was allready a veteran by this time (58 BC - the same year it is supposed to been have founded !) it is higly unlikely that it was founded recently. This is also hinted by Caesar's ambition: he needs tough veteran legions to conquer something, so what is going to demand from his partners? Reliable veteran legions. I also have a book called "Caesar's Legion" by Stephen Dando-Colins. He wrote that the 10th was founded in 61 BC by Caesar as he begins a campaign against the Lusitanii. However this book is highly disputed, as Dando seems to have made several major mistakes and some critics also say that he invented some stuff. He just might be right on this ocasion, but I want to confirm this. He doesn't really explain how he reaches this date, its seems to be reasonable, but who knows?

I have allready debated this in Talk:Roman Republic. Please take a look if you want.

So what do I really want? I want to find out is why 58 BC is considered the birth date and if there any alternative views. I am quite inclined to present the mater in a fair manner in the article Legio X Gemina. Thanks Flamarande 17:29, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

History of Russian Architect Buildings

Hi , My name is Sydney and I was wondering what the colored cone-shaped designs on the Russian buildings were called ?

History of Russian Architect Buildings http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_architecture heres a picture of what I'm reffering to . St. Basil's Cathedral .

Sincerely , Sydney Thanks for any help .

• Those are onion domes. --Fastfission 19:47, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
• Somewhat similar domes can be found on the towers of Catholic churches in southern Germany and Austria, where they are called Zwiebeltürme ("onion towers"). For an example, see Frauendorf (Bad Staffelstein). --Lambiam^Talk 21:23, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

Deadwood Season 2 Region 2 DVD Question

I've recently purchased the complete season 2 of Deadwood on region 2 DVD. While I am able to watch the episodes without any problems, I cannot seem to be able to access the additional episode commentaries. I have bought a legitmate copy and the box packaging does advertise the audio commentaries as being available.

I've tried searching for help on the internet without any success. I did find a review (see the link below) which contains a picture of the title menu with Episodes, Langauge & Features as the options. My version only displays Episodes and Subtitles in it's menu. http://www.dvdtalk.com/reviews/read.php?ID=21812

I've tried playing it on my PS2 and using InterWin DVD Player & DVD X Player on my laptop but without any joy. They only show one available audio channel, and don't display any other menu options.

Given the popularity of the show, I would hope that there are plenty of fellow wikipedians who have purchased the same box set, and are possibly suffering from the same problem.

Any help or suggestions would be greatly appreciated. Regards, Gallaghp 19:42, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

Things to look out for when establishing a town or village

Hi all. In order to create a believeble world for the characters in a story I'm writing, I would be extremely grateful if anyone could provide me with certain things that surveyors look out for when deciding on the best place to estalish a town or village. Answers covering a wide range of climates and geography would be most helpful. Thank you in advance!

-- Emmanuel Q.

Well, I don't know for sure, but I imagine the biggest architectual/engineering issues are things probably divide into "long term gradual problems" and "short term immediate problems". In the former category you'd have things like erosion (in cases where you have bodies of water or high winds), in long-term stability issues (can the ground support much weight? how does it handle when it is rained upon?), and other things related to the long-term occupation of a given site. In the other category you'd probably have questions relating to the possibility of large natural disasters -- flooding is a major concern (since it is not always rare), but moving upwards into the question of volcanoes, typhoons, rockslides, earthquakes, tornadoes, etc. depending on where you happen to be. --Fastfission 19:56, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

You don't say what level of development or technology your characters have, but surely there are some very basic considerations like water -- a stream, a river, a lake, whatever. Other natural resources to provide for food, fuel, building materials as necessary. Also perhaps a vantage point in order to see approaching enemies or predators from many/all directions. Natural shelter that can be used until more permanent structures can be built.

And of course, high speed wireless internet access  ;-) --LarryMac 20:21, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

Well, considering most villages were founded in mediaeval times or earlier, reasons include, high ground for defense, water, woods for hunting and trees for building with, south facing hill for crops (in northern hemisphere), crossing junction in trade routes or a natural resource of some kind. Philc _T^E_C^I 21:40, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

I just developed a world design for what looks like a series of pieces, and put a lot of thought into the location of the various settlements. Basically, a village will often start where there's water, good soil for farming, forests for building materials (or good sod, for plains locales), and routes that can be used for trade. If your setting is more advanced (into the Medieval-style eras, say), chances are this could be refined to include places that are dependent on trade - mining villages, for example, which might not produce their own food, but have raw minerals that are traded for those basic supplies. And it seems a town will spring up anywhere a large tributary runs into a river, or two rivers fork... just because, near as I can tell. =) Tony Fox (speak) 22:11, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

Ahh yes, and bridging points, mountain passes, or any place people are forced to travel through to get to somewhere else. Philc _T^E_C^I 01:20, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

Agree with all of that, but by the Middle Ages in populous countries such as England there were already villages all over anyway (1 per 4 sq miles, say) so there wasnt really much room for new ones - any new village from that period would have had to be on the worst land, which had been ignored up to then. Jameswilson 22:49, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

It depends on what era and location you are talking about.

In North America, some townsites were often chosen due to access to a waterway that could support a mill. Later on, townsites were sometimes chosen to take advantage of preexisting infrastructure, such as roads, canals and railways. -- Mwalcoff 23:45, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

If the place that you are establishing this village will compliament and not interfere with the plot of the story you are writing. Russian F 16:59, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

Chief Parker L.A.P.D.

Where did chief parker go to law school? The xxxxx (WP:NPA) at the lapd historical divison know but they will not tell me unless I PAY! them $ for research fees! My mom and my rabbi will not allow this. I suspect its UCLA but being only functionaly omnipotent I aint sure. (Book em Danno!-Just the facts ma'm.) 24.0.47.184 21:21, 23 June 2006 (UTC)(Hobgoblin)

24.0.47.184 (talk · contribs) added. --hydnjo talk 22:34, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

List of phrases which mean to die

Where can I find a list of phrases that mean to die such as "kick the bucket" or "meet his maker" etc.?

Well, I found this one via Google that seems to have quite a few. Hope it helps.[4]--inks^T 23:56, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

This question has been double posted. See the related section at Wikipedia:Reference desk/Miscellaneous#List of phrases which mean to die. Road Wizard 00:30, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

June 24

history

what lay at the core of new Spain's economy and social development?

Do you mean the Spanish colonies in the Americas ? If so, exploiting the natives by stealing all their wealth (mainly in the form of gold and silver), then importing black slaves to continue mining (once all the natives had been killed off) seemed to be their main method. StuRat 02:10, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

Wow, strongly emotional answer, though little illustrative. GTubio 09:51, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

That's hardly 'new'. More likely the end of the rule of Franco. Anyway, sounds like a homework question. DirkvdM 05:57, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

I think the questioner is literally asking about New Spain, not "new Spain". Am I correct, questioner? Anyway, it seems like a valid question to me. Originally, the Spanish colonies were useful largely for the plunder they yielded. Later, they would have been parceled out into agricultural estates. As StuRat says, slave labor and precious metals were the primary resources. However, New Spain was ultimately a failure as a financial investment, with Spain losing most of the money due to piracy and military entanglements. As for "social developments", I suggest that the questioner check out our article on the encomienda system. Bhumiya (said/done) 10:31, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

Ah, one is never too young to learn! I could use the excuse that the questioneer should have capitalised the 'N', but the truth is I never heard of the term and interpreted it literally. DirkvdM 17:44, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

No harm done, DirkdvM. I was momentarily confused as well. If I hadn't known what New Spain was, I would have probably responded as you did. Bhumiya (said/done) 01:10, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

War

With this recent situation with North Korea and testing it's Taepodong 2 missile, it's difficult to tell what news and viewpoints are accurate - it's hard to tell what could actually happen. Suppose this test ban goes ahead...what are the chances of it leading to...

1. The United States going to war with North Korea. 2. A conflict between the United States and China. 3. A nuclear war.

Kind of a worrisome situation. Looking through history it seems that wars can suddenly explode out of nothing, and considering the buildup of tensions and breakdown of the six-party talks...it seems possible that something very bad could happen as a result of all this. Could be just paranoia on my part though. What do you think? --Shadarian 02:27, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

For what it's worth, in my opinion 1 is highly unlikely, because of the fear of 2 and 3, not to mention the likely possibility of a substantial fraction of the citizens of Seoul, and the American soldiers garrisoned in the South, being killed in the vent of option 1. North Korea and its political leadership are often mischaracterised in the foriegn media. They are not particularly nice people, to say the least. But they are, at some level, quite rational, or they wouldn't have remained in charge for the past 50 years. All the evidence suggests that their primary goal is to remain in charge of North Korea, and their actions are directed entirely to that end. Actually going to war with other countries is highly undesirable to them, because it would almost certainly result in the end of their regime, one way or the other. So their military strategy involves making sure that attacking them will cause unacceptable losses. --Robert Merkel 03:08, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

2, the conflict between the US and China is unlikely. China has publicaly asked North Korea not to test the missle (actually, it's been a bit stronger than "asked"). The major fears involved in a potential attack on North Korea are the nuclear war and the US's inability to field the necessary troups without withdrawing from Iraq. Emmett5 04:44, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

Right, that's what I thought. What makes you think 2. might happen? Do China and North Korea have some kind of war-treaty? DirkvdM 05:55, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

Um, you are familiar with the history of the Korean War, aren't you? One of the major reasons China props up the NK regime (and continues to do so) is because they don't want US troops sitting on their borders, which might be the end result of the collapse of North Korea. --Robert Merkel 08:36, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

I agree heartily with Robert Merkel's above assessment of North Korea. This Taepodong 2 seems to be a publicity stunt, albeit a very bold and menacing one. If the political climate in the U.S. were different, the Bush administration could quite easily use this missile program as a pretext for an invasion. But with his approval ratings languishing below 35% and the military already perilously overextended, I don't think the U.S. is up for another war anytime soon. Maybe after 2008. To answer question 2, I honestly don't think China would even consider intervening in the event of a US-DPRK war. The global balance of power is very different from 1950. For one thing, China's borders are secure and it enjoys almost universal diplomatic recognition. Nobody's gonna be invading China, even if they take sides in the dispute. All issues with China will be solved diplomatically. If the U.S. attempted to wage war on China, the U.S. would find itself at the mercy of the largest army in the world by far. And if it were an unprovoked war, they would find themselves totally isolated and quite possibly in danger of invasion. To answer question 3, I doubt any existing government, however desperate, would consider a nuclear attack except as a response to an earlier nuclear attack. Even in a hopeless situation, a nuclear attack would be useless and would only provoke greater ferocity from the attackers and a longer occupation after the war. Bhumiya (said/done) 11:21, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

Isn't the U.S. the one with the largest army, if we're strictly talking about dollars spent (which translates into a material advantage)? Anyways, too many businesspeople would complain about a U.S.-China war and then the citizenry would complain as the prices of their goods skyrocket. There's more likely to be a provocation over Taiwan independence (which is a lot of sabre-rattling), not NK aggression. --ColourBurst 19:21, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

Even the most optimistic estimates for the range of the TD-2 don't make it a useful first-strike weapon. Most don't even make it a useful second-strike weapon. See this graphic for an example of this -- you'd have to think the weapon was going to have a range of 10,000 km to get near the contiguous U.S. On top of that, there really isn't any good evidence that the North Koreans have a working bomb prototype, much less one which could fit on the end of a missile. So the only way to get into a nuclear war in this situation would be between the U.S. and China, and I don't see that happening. --Fastfission 17:41, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

4. China gets pissed at babysitting the North Koreans and invade, giving South Korea the undesirable task of bringing North Korean back to level. -- Миборовский 00:35, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

I see some very different, but still very bad, results:

Japan judges correctly that the US can't be counted on to defend them from aggression by North Korea, since that would expose the US to a potential nuclear strike on the West Coast. Therefore, Japan scraps it's pacifist Constitution and rearms, including the devlopment of nuclear weapons. South Korea does the same. Taiwan follows, although for protection from China, but using the excuse that "everyone else in Asia has nukes, why shouldn't we". This spread of nuclear weapons then eventually leads to a nuclear war. 22:14, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

Help Finding Songs

My father is in search of four songs that are on one collection. He used to listen to them on tape before CDs. The songs were called Brennan on the Moor, Hot Asphalt, Finnegan's Wake, and The One-Eyed Riley. After some googling, we located the musicians Steve Benbow and The Strawberry Hill Boys. In a CD called "Songs Of Ireland," all three songs excluding the song The One-Eyed Riley were on it. I am having a hard time locating The One-Eyed Riley with the others on CD. They are all old Irish songs that at one time was on a compilation together. If anyone knows of a CD with all four songs together, even under different musicians, my father and I would be grateful, because that would have been the music he remembers. Thank you so much to anyone who can provide any help or even a clue as to where I should start looking. M@$+@ Ju ~ ♠ 03:25, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

I searched around on The All Music Guide, but from what I saw, the chances of getting all four of those songs on one CD is minuscule. The One-Eyed Riley showed up on four releases, but it's not clear whether any of them are currently in print. I'd check around at any place that might sell used CDs and try my luck that way. --LarryMac 04:00, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

Thanks a lot for your help, you're probably right about it being out of print. I still consider this a success, because we are getting a CD with three of the songs, and I can tell my dad its the best we could have hoped for. Thanks! M@$+@ Ju ~ ♠ 16:31, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

Baptist Wedding

Hello.. I was just wondering does any one know wat happens in a baptist wedding and the symbolism involved...Thank You

I would suppose the bride and groom are thrown a bucket at and then definitely splashed in the swimming pool ? Any advice ? --DLL 09:50, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

I suppose I've been to a Baptist wedding, in that both participants were observant Baptists. It was low-key, very formal, but not "ritualistic", so to speak. I don't know what the questioner means by symbolism. There was a small chapel. Two rows of seats. An aisle. Music came on. Bride in a white dress. Bridesmaids in banana-colored dresses. The bride's sister read a poem. The pastor stepped up and read a verse (1 Corinthians 13:4 or something similar), and then made some brief remarks. Vows. Ring swap. Kiss. Reception. That's about the size of it. Oh, and once I attended another wedding of two Baptists that took place on a yacht. So there's a lot of flexibility. Bhumiya (said/done) 10:58, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

Baptists are a congregational church, so they have no set doctrine. Therefore, there isn't any one thing that would be a "baptist" wedding. Each congregation enjoys wide lattitude. Generally, Baptists are among the most stridently anti-Catholic of the protestant churches, and so they are strongly anti-liturgical and against what the early Independents called "pomp" and "ceremony." The marriage rite is generally the same as is used in all western Christian churches, but symbolism will be kept to a bare minimum. Thus, it is more notable by what isn't employed than what is. Otherwise, no two baptist church marriages will be identical. Geogre 02:56, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

Strongly suggest Wikipedia creats a new section in the reference desk----Law and e-business

The emerging flourishing e-business undoubtedly need new law systems to be set up, and as a reference desk for Wikipedia, I think it is very important to create a new section to solely collect the laws relating to the e-business. In addition, I strongly suggest the editors of Wikipedia try their best to invite the experts, the professors in legislation area from both academic and industrial field to contribut in this section and share their latest knowledge with us. In addition, case studies should also be included in this section. Thank you. (Preceding unsigned comment by User:Korenzhang2244. Please sign posts using ~~~~)

All it would say to every queation is, If you want help with law, see a lawyer, as that is the policy. Philc _T^E_C^I 10:17, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

--do you think it is possible to see a lawyer just for a trivial thing?koren 15:48, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

There are (at least) two major problems with this idea. One is that laws vary enormously from one country to another, and this is a global resource.

--so that means it will be more important to give poeple from different countries the opportunity to communicate, to discuss, especially it is becoming more and more globalised.koren 15:48, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

The other is that the law is incredibly complicated

--not particular agree, law is made by humans, and nothing is too complicated to express clearly and simply on the internet. If it cannot express clearly to let people understand, the law itself will need to be verified. koren 15:48, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

and requires expert knowledge.

--agree to some extend but jsut like encyclopedia, it should be unstandable using simply language.koren 15:48, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

Because Wikipedia is a complete free-for-all,

--you are right in this point here.koren 15:48, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

with some very odd characters and opinions in the mix,

--talking yourself? If you are among the normal people, you should know how to communicate with others on the internet.koren 15:48, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

expecting any reliable legal (or medical etc) advice from here is foolish to say the least.--Shantavira 11:41, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

--I suppose it is the one who are saying this is actually foolish and need to see a doctor.koren 15:48, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

Also, e-business related law is a very specific subject, and most sections of the Reference Desk are much more general. Several sections get over a dozen questions per day, while even the relatively small Language desk gets four or five questions daily. It's extremely unlikely that an e-business/law section would get even one or two posts per day. Most of the content that you suggest would be better suited to articles; for example, we already have a category on Computer Law. If you still think that the Reference Desk needs a new section, a better place to suggest it would be on its talk page. --Cadaeib (talk) 17:51, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

• Wikipedia does not provide legal advice and even if someone comments you should still see a lawyer for the most accurate answer. As for e-business questions. Anyone who has a business and asks Wikipedia for help shouldn't be in their business to begin with. Running a business requires knowledge of your own, or at least the knowledge where to recruit experts to work for you. -Mgm|^(talk) 07:52, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

I'm not sure that I'm Spelling it right.

I heard this term used and cannot find a definition for it or a reference, nichean or nichian the pronunciation was (knee-chee-an). I'd like to know what this is. I couldn't get a clear understanding by way of context of the conversation.

The term is "Nietzschean" and it refers to the German philosopher Friedrich Nietzsche. Bhumiya (said/done) 11:24, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

In its adjectival form, it's generally a reference to Social Darwinism. Geogre 12:26, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

Yes, I could imagine that, although I've always used it to refer specifically to Nietzsche and his philosophy. Some people use it to refer to any sort of extreme, polemical inversion of accepted mores, often (but not always) in a negative context. Bhumiya (said/done) 00:20, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

True. Among philosophers and trained folks, it would refer only to things like Nietzsche and his form of the dialectic of will. I suppose that some people might use it to refer to socially shocking and anti-ethical statements, like "pity is a slave morality." When it creeps into the mundane, though, I have most often heard it as a vague Will to Power/Man and Superman reference. (I just had to explain the ubermensch to a class reading a Vonnegut story. They thought I was crazy.) Geogre 02:53, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

WWII

I recently saw an advert for a documentary which stated

"World War II did not begin in Poland in 1939, but two years earlier, in China, 1937, and only one country could have prevented it, Britain"

What event is this reffering too, could someone direct me to the relevant article aswell. Thank you. Philc _T^E_C^I 14:13, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

Second Sino-Japanese War --Mathew5000 15:24, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

It could also be argued that WW2 started in 1936 with Hitler's and Mussolini's support for the fascist Franco during the Spanish Civil War, which allowed him to win, since an equal level of support was not provided by the Allies. StuRat 15:30, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

But Spain was never in the war (officially). But there was already a war between the Chinese and the Japanese when the invasion of Poland occurred. When Germany and Japan became allies it became a wider war and it's really rather Eurocentric to consider the start of the European part of it the start of the war. Only recently have I learned that the real big players in WWII were China and Russia, not Germany and the US, as I grew up to believe. If you go by the death toll, that is. Over half the deaths were Russian and Chinese. DirkvdM 17:55, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

If you judge the effect of war on a country solely by the number killed, then virtually every war involving a country with a huge population like China is "of major significance", while even if the entire population of Luxembourg was wiped out, the war would still be "insignificant", due to the low population of that country. Thus, that's not a good way to decide things. Also, being on the losing side often assures you have a higher percentage of casualties. Should we conclude that only the losing sides are significantly involved in wars ? StuRat 15:17, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

As for the Spanish Civil War, it set many precedents for WW2, from the failure of the Allies to oppose fascist aggression, to the aerial bombing of civilian populations, to widespread executions of noncombatants and prisoners of war. Allied action to defeat Franco likely would have convinced Hitler not to invade Czechoslovakia and Poland, and at least would have avoided the European portion of WW2. StuRat 15:26, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

The most generally accepted date for when WW2 began is the German invasion of Poland. Russian F 00:56, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

In China, it is generally accepted that WW2 began in 1937. Bwithh 05:11, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

Just another example of how where you grow up determines what version of the truth you get to hear. Another example was the notion I had that by putting a man on the Moon the US had won the space race. As a kid you just accept this sort of info. But it's complete nonsense if you look at the firsts the USSR had achieved before that - spacecraft, man in space, spacewalk, Moonlanding and landing on another planet, to name but a few. And the two big ones: the first photographs of the other side of the Moon and the surface of Venus, two places we can't see from here.

The point I'm trying to make here is that you should be very suspicious about what you hear. Don't get paranoid, but in stead of blindly accepting other people's interpretations, try to find the basic data and draw your own conclusions. DirkvdM 06:48, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

It would seem to me that a "World War" would only begin when pretty much every significant power in the world was at war (aside from the decidedly neutral countries). China and Japan may have been at war in 1937, but most of the rest of the world wasn't. Two powers at war with each other doesn't seem to me to be much of a "World War". However once Germany invaded Poland, at least several dozen important powers became actively engaged in war, in almost every area of the globe. Only then, I would say, did the second World War begin. Loomis 20:38, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

There's a lot of sense in what you say, but a Chinese person might argue "it was the same war; it became 'world' when other major powers joined in, but the war itself started in 1937". DJ Clayworth 15:30, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

In that case, a Balkan would argue that the First World War was simply an extension of the ongoing Balkan Wars that began in 1912. Indeed, even those who accept the traditional 1914-1918 timeline for WWI would agree that the First World War began in the Balkans, with the assasination of Archduke Francis Ferdinand of Austria in Sarajevo. So to a Balkan, WWI began in 1912. However, the world was clearly not at war until at least June 1914. Loomis 20:37, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

I don't see how the Limeys could have stopped the Second Sino-Japanese War. We wouldn't have let them. -- Миборовский 00:32, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

Who's "we"? GeeJo ^(t)⁄_(c) • 14:55, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

The Russians, judging by his signature. DirkvdM 18:20, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

Mailbox Rule (in contract law)

I was reading the article mailbox rule and I was wondering, what happens if something in the contract contradicts the mailbox rule? For example what if the contract says that it goes into effect X number of days after it was mailed?--Anakata 15:49, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

The mailbox rule isn't a rule about when the contract goes into effect, it is a rule about when an acceptance has taken place. If you make me an offer, and I accept, the acceptance is effective when I mail it. So, if you retract the offer between when I sent the acceptance and your receipt of it, it is too late. The contract itself can, however, dictate what constitutes acceptance. (Cj67 16:15, 24 June 2006 (UTC))

But doesn't the signing of a contract constitute acceptance? What I mean is that if the signing of a contract constitutes acceptance, then the contract going into effect would be when the acceptance takes place.--Anakata 17:45, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

No, signing isn't enough, the person who made the offer must, of course, be notified that there is a contract. (Cj67 18:08, 24 June 2006 (UTC))

June 25

Underground Fugitive who lived On East Pearl Street in Torrington CT in 1974.

Dear Wikipedia:

Several years ago, while reading the local newspaper, I noticed an article that a member of the underground lived on East Pearl Street in Torrington, CT (summer months only) in 1974. The article said the fugitive's name, but I cant recall it, nor did I save the article. Do you have the fugitives name??????

Are you thinking of the Underground Railroad? It predates 1974 considerably. See this link. --Mathew5000 05:57, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

A railroad fugitive? Common, trains aren't that bad. :) I think he means a WWII underground member. DirkvdM 06:51, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

• Sounds more like an anti war protester/Weatherman type to me considering the date.Being an old radical/hippy it was the first thing that occurred to me--hotclaws(217.39.11.210 07:27, 25 June 2006 (UTC))

I agree with hotclaws. The question certainly is about a member of one of the following groups, or an equivalent group: Weatherman (organization), Revolutionary Youth Movement, Symbionese Liberation Army, Black Panther Party.-gadfium 08:34, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

Probably thinking of Ira Einhorn, although that's a guess. He was very much wanted for murder. He had been a Weather member, but the murder charges were for killing his girlfriend. He lived in New England and fled to Europe, where he was caught, eventually (around 1998-1999). I'm giving all this extra detail because it's likely that, as usual, I've misspelled or misremembered the name slightly. Geogre 13:19, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

Or Kathy Boudin, or Katherine Anne Power? - Nunh-huh 17:09, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

What is the average number of friendships that a human will have in their life-time

Hi, I am organising an event which addresses the effect of HIV/AIDS and I am trying to illustrate the problem by relating the number of deaths each year to the number of friendships that an average human would have in their lifetime and I can't seem to find it anywhere. So the question is - 'what is the average number of friendships that a human will have in their lifetime from birth to death'. I also would need to know where these statistics are sourced from if possible. thanks - really appreciate anyone's assistance, Sarah A ....

I don't see how the number of friends somebody has relates to the problem of AIDS. In any case, how would you define "friend"? There are lots of different kinds of friendship. Do you mean number of sexual partners? That would be more relevant, but would vary enormously depending on your particular country and culture. Where are you from? --Shantavira 12:24, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

Me neither, unless you're talking about Friends with benefits. --mboverload@ 12:34, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

I don't think he's trying to make a connection. He's just looking for a number to compare the number of deaths to. How about he makes it into "Each year x people die of HIV/AIDS. That's about as much as the entire population of country X." That should have the required impact. - Mgm|^(talk) 07:48, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

Or maybe the poster is going to say something like 'Statistically 10 of your friends will die due to AIDS, please help this worthy cause and help a friend'? And sorry I don't know the answer to your question --iamajpeg 20:24, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

The answer would vary extremely heavily since there is little justification and proper definition to what you mean by friend. Casual friends, "school" friends, close friends, ... what is truly considered a friend? --Proficient 03:55, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

It's Sarah again...I am a girl (as a by-the-way) - thanks for your feedback so far. What I'm trying to do is state something along the following lines - "currently there are 880,000 children affected by HIV/AIDS in Uganda"....on average in our life-time we will make "x" amount of friends....now, there are 300 people in this room tonight. I want you all to close your eyes and remember the first memory you had....keep thinking and now visualise primary school and friends you made in primary school, secondary school, university, and any friends you have made in various jobs you have had thus far in your life....all those people - multiply it by the 300 people here tonight and that wouldn't even cover "x"% of the children currently affected by HIV/AIDS in Uganda alone....... - I need something along those lines. It needs to be catchy and make people look seriously about the huge problem in Africa. Hopefully someone somewhere that has perhaps studied sociology or statistics in combination with this would possibly know the answer....thanks again, Sarah A (from Australia)

Because of the number of variables, the number would be so nebulous that you'd be better off just making up a plausible-sounding answer. No-one's going to dispute it. GeeJo ^(t)⁄_(c) • 14:53, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

major revisions complete

The Half-life computation article has undergone substantial revision which has hopefully addressed everyone's concerns. If you have any further comments after looking at the article again, please list the items you do not like, make whatever comment you have and please be specific and allow time for further revision. If there is any reason I can not comply with your wishes then I will let you know the reason why. ...IMHO (Talk) 12:16, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

Then why is the link red ? StuRat 16:25, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

AFD said so. DMacks 01:30, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

Caesar crossing the Rubicon

Did Ceaser cross the Rubicon going north into Gaul, or South into Italy?

Presumably both, but it was only a problem coming back south into Italy - generals were not allowed to lead an army into Italy. Adam Bishop 16:41, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

Try Rubicon, Caesar was returning from the Gallic Wars. The Senate and Pompey were planning to get rid of him and ordered him to disband his legions and to return to Italy to face trial. Caesar choose to fight and to rebel, instead of meekly surrendering. Thereby he started a civil war. Flamarande 16:44, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

humantities

I need to compare and contrast the description of the 'afterlife' in the underworld in Homer's Odyssey and Vergil's Aaneid

Please, do your own homework. You can also consult the articles Odyssey and Aeneid for some details. Daniel Šebesta (talk • contribs) 18:54, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

I'm getting mixed between Half afterlife and After half-life. --DLL 19:23, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

Do your own homework. Our article on Hades might help you with an overview, but you won't do yourself any favors by trying to find a compare/contrast already done for you. Geogre 20:50, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

FDR meets JFK

Is there any historical record that these two Presidents ever met? Perhaps Joseph Kennedy once took his large family to the White House to meet President Roosevelt. 66.213.33.2 19:24, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

As far as I know: no. I've been to the John F. Kennedy Library library numerous times, and the only suggestion of a president meeting a future president was with Clinton meeting JFK as a youth leader thing. Yanksox ^(talk) 04:20, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

That must make presidential debates pretty difficult... GeeJo ^(t)⁄_(c) • 14:50, 26 June 2006 (UTC) 14:50, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

Please make your header intelligible to people from outsaide the US. Many might know (if they think a bit) what 'JFK' stands for, but hardly anyone will know 'FDR'. Cheers. DirkvdM 11:39, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

Presumably George W. Bush also met George H. W. Bush at some point too. AllanHainey 12:46, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

And Ike reportedly met Tricky Dick (and so did JFK). Hey, I've got an idea. Why don't we start a List of U.S. presidents who met each other? --Lambiam^Talk 16:34, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

It would seem that all US presidents, in recent history at least, have met with their immediate successor, as they're generally forced to suffer the indignity of getting a front row seat at their successor's inauguration. Even those who've died in office, like JFK and FDR surely met their successors, as they chose them to be their VPs. As well, even those who completed two full terms in office, such as Clinton, Reagan and Eisenhower would still meet their successors at the inauguration ceremony, even without having had debated them.

As for presidents who've met not simply their immediate successor, but a president that would take office some time later, I'm sure FDR met Eisenhower, as Eisenhower was a major general in WWII during FDR's administration. Likewise, Ford certainly met with Reagan (in the '76 primaries) as well as Bush Sr. (as his head of the CIA). It's also extremely likely that Reagan met with Bush Jr. as early as 1981, if not earlier, being the son of his VP. I only hope and pray we won't have a new category: Presidents who were married to future presidents! Loomis 19:48, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

Ok, it appears my comment was taken out of context. I meant to say evidence that existed within the JFK library. Yanksox ^(talk) 20:43, 26 June 2006 (UTC) They almost certainly met Joe Kennedy was a leader in FDR's party, and he involved his sons in his political work. In adddition, early in WWII JFK was stationed in DC and served in intelligence

charcoal portrait: artist/subject unknown

First of all, I just want to say thank you ahead of time for any and all help you can give. I was willed a portrait this past month and I haven't a clue how to identify the artist or the subject. Yes, I know a picture would be great, but the dig. cam crashed, so I'm sorry for that. It is about 16" x 20" and looks to be done on parchment. The subject is a young caucasian man in his early to mid twenties wearing a dress shirt and tie. The portraitlooks to be done in charcoal. At the bottom of the picture, it has the capial letter H and just below that and to the right is a dash and 25 (-25). I think it could be the year maybe? However, on the back it has a label that says: R. Paul Palm. Under this, it has "Glasmester Kunstglasfabrik". Then under that it says "Glashandel" with "en gros en detail" and then "Bergen" at the bottom of the label. I have looked through every link between the US and Norway, even as far as to contact the University of Bergen in Europe, but to no avail. I can't seem to find out what the words are, nor anything pertaining to anyone by that name. Please, if anyone knows anything about this portrait, the words, artist, or subject, I would be most grateful. Thanks again, veggielover 19:43, 25 June 2006 (UTC)Dee

Why do you assume it is Norwegian? Using Babelfish:

• Glasmester (Dutch) "For the"
• Kunstglasfabrik (German) "Glass Factory"
• Glashandel (German) "Glass Trade"
• En gros/En Detail (Dutch/German) And gross (quantity) and detail
• Bergen (Dutch) To Store, (German) Mountains

Since Babelfish doesn't have Norwegian, I can't tell if these are words shared by both languages. --Kainaw ^(talk) 20:01, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but Glasmester does not occur in an extensive and authoritative Dutch dictionary. It can be Danish, Swedish or Norwegian and then means something like "master glass maker". It could mean some glass factory is named "Master Glass Maker", or be telegram style for "master glass maker at the glass factory". While Glashandel can mean "glass trade", the most likely meaning here is something like "glass dealer". This is affirmed by the next line, which says "wholesale – retail". Summing up, we see:

R. Paul Palm

Master glass maker Glass factory

Glass dealer

wholesale – retail

Bergen

My best guess is this is from Norway. If the label is printed, it probably only identifies the seller or distributor of the work. Could it be a lithograph? --Lambiam^Talk 21:34, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

My assumption is that the questioner assumed Bergen was in Norway, which led to the assumption that it was written in Norwegian. However, there is a Bergen in Germany (more than one I think), in the Netherlands, in Belgium, and in the United States. So, I was wondering if there was another reason to assume it was Norwegian. As for my translations - I blame Babelfish for any mistranslations. I only know English and Chinese well. --Kainaw ^(talk) 21:40, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

Thank you sir for the information you provided me with. I'm very grateful of your comments and translations as well. As for the reason I suspected that it was Norwegian, I searched for any and all information in the USA about the subjet in consideration, and it sure didn't fit New Jersey. When I did a deep search, I kept coming up with Bergen, Norway. Since I'm not a skilled linguist, I did make assumptions, that, at this point, seem correct. I really appreciate all the help you have given me. Thanks again, but I will still be searching for the unknown gentelman whom I now have a portrait of. If you have anymore ideas, or information please do not hesitate to relate any and all thoughts you might have. With sincere appreciation, veggieloverDee 02:29, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

maggot?

Is the word "maggot" a legitimate term for misogynists (as it states in the article maggot, or is someone just trying to make a political statement (which does not belong in Wikipedia)? Mo-Al 23:50, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

Probably only in the same way that "male chauvanist pigs" is, but I'm not sure. I'd say, delete it and post an explanation on the talk page. Emmett5 01:00, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

Sounds like vandalism to me. Unless they have attestation for it, it should be removed. I've certainly never heard it associated that way in American English. Geogre 04:15, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

maggot is also the name of a slipknot fan. the slipknot fans are called maggot. the term was atribuited by joey jordison

How Educational Is The Da Vinci Code

At dinner the other day, the topic of The Da Vinci Code came up, and someone commented on how educational it is. I've read however some aspects such as the cryptex although presented as fact are actually ficticious, just made up for the story to work. This makes me wonder how seriously I should take what I read in this book? Obviously it's not all fiction (the Mona Lisa really is in the Salle de etats(sp)) --Username132 (talk) 00:02, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

Lots of it is false. I found myself frequently pointing out errors in the book. For example, the dead sea scrolls aren't gospels. Also, the claim that yud-hey-vav-hey (the tetragrammaton) is derived from the Hebrew words Yah (another name for God) and Chava (Eve) is obviously false to anyone who actually speaks Hebrew (if it was true, the tetragrammaton would be יהחוה). Mo-Al 01:05, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

Dan Brown in my opinion isn't really all that accurate in his writings, he's not about that. To a certain extent almost all fiction authors (especially genre fiction authors) are probably inaccurate, as they don't usually study their researched field for a living, but some do less research than others. --ColourBurst 01:16, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

People just take it too seriousely - it is a work of fiction after all (although IMHO Dan Brown takes it a little too seriousely too). Mo-Al 01:37, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

See Criticisms of The Da Vinci Code for innacuracies. Mo-Al 01:40, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

Just take it lightheartedly. --Proficient 03:57, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

I would actually say that the comment is entirely misdirected. Because Dan Brown is pursuing a wild and wholly disproven conspiracy theory, and because he basis his work on Holy Blood, Holy Grail, which was based on a hoax that took in the authors, and because he has made a believer of himself, the book is actually anti-educational. It misinforms because it passes off large chunks of nuttery with sprinklings of truth. To me, that's worse than setting the novel on Mars. If it were set on Mars, readers would know that there might be a little science with the fiction, but setting it among the poor old Templars catches people off balance and preys upon ignorance (not least Dan Brown's own). Geogre 04:13, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

Actually, apart from having plot holes you could fit several Knights Templar in, I have to admit I found the Da Vinci Code quite entertainig for a couple of hours - the problems only start when people actually start believing there's any truth to the story. I'm still not quite sure why so many people insist on believing any historical truth in Brown's books (well, he himself seems to believe that, but that shouldn't be a reason for every reader to also believe it) - I also enjoyed Robert Anton Wilson's books, Eco's Foucault's Pendulum and the Neal Stephenson novels which all deal with a broadly similar subject matter, and as far as I can remember, none of those novels has sparked any noticeable amount of "Oh my gosh, it's all true"-reactions -- Ferkelparade π 08:00, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

Foucault's Pendulum is pretty much an exemplar of how to do it right, IMO. The characters are historians who know (and tell the readers) the difference between history and fiction. Of course there is more going on than that, and Eco's interest in semiotics and reader response suggest more profound doubts about truth (and all kinds of other easter eggs for people who've read too much). Stephenson's Baroque Cycle is interesting to me, because he's so absolutely accurate in his topography and political detail that I've had to reassure myself that his fictional characters are fictional, and I spend my time studying 18th century England. He could misinform, especially about Newton and Leibniz, whose real life motives don't much resemble his fictional ones, but the damage done would be just one speculation on a matter unknown. That's different from Brown's rewriting of the known for the titilating. (Poor old Templars.) Geogre 12:49, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

You're absolutely right, of course - Stephenson and Eco are much better authors than Brown, and of course they use their conspiracy theory-inspired backdrops to actually tell a story worth telling, not just for cheap thrills. What I meant was that nobody (well, nobody except a number of nutjobs probably) started to seriously look for evidence of an Illuminati conspiracy after Wilson's books were released, and nobody was looking for an actual conspiracy of Fedex and Nike after reading Interface - my point being that I don't really understand all the press Dan Brown is getting for a story that is neither original nor exactly well researched (although mildly entertaining) -- Ferkelparade π 13:01, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

I have to wonder who actually believes any novel to be truth? I know that my aunt was certain that I was an idiot when I told her that Forrest Gump was not based on a real person. She is the type of person who would believe something as crazy as The DaVinci Code. But, she also believes that the calendar in the stable when Jesus was born was marked December 25th (and I'm sure she is certain that there was a lit tree in the corner with a little electric train going around it). All in all, who cares what she believes. Anyone with an ounce of intelligence would question a whacked conspiracy theory. So, what is the point of getting all upset about those who lack the mental capacity to question what they read? --Kainaw ^(talk) 20:27, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

The reason it matters is because Brown deals with matters that are central to one of the world's great religions and because the chaffe he throws up is all having to do with medieval European history. Given that most people haven't the vaguest idea who Jacques de Molay was, they can get confused. When some true things are there and numerous nonsensical things, it gets harder and harder for the casual reader to know what's what. This is made worse by Brown claiming, in the novel, that it's all true, and that is made worse still by Brown saying in an Oprah interview that "all of the facts and secret rituals...that's all 100% true." In other words, the narrative voice says that this is real history (and then some small bits of real history are there), and the writer says that it's real history, and yet the purpose of the fiction is to say something so mind bogglingly outrageous about Christianity as to be offensive intellectually as well as morally. It's the difference between casual confusion and deliberate deceit. More folks are vulnerable than you suppose. Look at all the new interest in Da Vinci's "woman" in The Last Supper, the new interest in the Magdalene, etc. People are falling for it like the proverbial lemmings falling off a cliff. That's why people might care. History and religion are alike getting muddied by someone setting out to persuade to error. Geogre 01:54, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

Yes, Dan Brown is the Antichrist and is trying to destroy Christianity with a book in the fiction section. Thanks for clearing that up for me. --mboverload@ 02:02, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

No, Dan Brown is a knave. "When a man's reason gets astride his reason, and common sense is kick'd out of doors, the first convert he makes is himself," as Swift said. Dan Brown started out a fool and moved on to a knave. There is no "antichrist," except "antichrist of wit": It's an offense against everyone who studies, who researches, and who thinks, and it's only enabled by the promise of secret knowledge about things people believe in their worship. Please don't joust at strawmen. Geogre 04:36, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

HINT: It's in the fiction section, and there's a reason for that =D --mboverload@ 22:50, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

June 26

Crossover music between 1940's black and white gospel

Can anyone list gospel music that crossed over between black and white churches back in the 40's? And list the groups that sang or made that music popular? Both the black and white artists? Thank you for your time and consideration.

will grand father's dna and grand son's dna match?

will grand father's dna and grand son's dna match? By testing the dna of these two can it be confirmed whether the child is the grand son or not?

• I'm not a specialist on this, but as the Y chromosome is passed down from father to son, I would say these particular chromosomes would match if they're biologically related. At most you'd need to do two paternity tests. - Mgm|^(talk) 07:43, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

A Y chromosome test will only work if he's the paternal grandfather, not the maternal one. I think a normal paternity test should work in either case, although the confidence level will be lower than that for a parent and child.-gadfium 08:57, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

Of course, confidence will get lower when you do more tests. - Mgm|^(talk) 10:56, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

It's actually possible for a maternal grandfather and grandson to be unrelated genetically, although quite unlikely. This could happen if none of the chromosomes passed down by grandpa to mom were passed on the the grandchild. The chances of this are (.5)^23. This works out to be 1 in 8,392,608. If we use 6 billion as the current population of the Earth, there should be around 715 people on Earth who are unrelated to their maternal grandfathers. If you are one of those, then there is no way to establish the relationship solely using the grandfather's and grandson's DNA, the mother's DNA would also be needed. For everyone else, including all paternal grandfather's of grandsons, DNA testing should work, although every chromosome (except the Y) would need to be checked for accuracy in the maternal grandfather cases. If only one or two chromosomes are shared, however, this could be expected in isolated communities, where everyone likely has a few shared chromosomes from common ancestors way back. StuRat 16:06, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

No, there aren't 715 such people: in fact, this is so unlikely that it is essentially impossible. The reason your probability calculation is misleading you is that you've ignored the fact of recombination; one can estimate that there will be one recombination event per chromosome per generation. - Nunh-huh 19:24, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

That appears to be a type of mutation, which would make it even more likely that a maternal grandparent wouldn't have any chromosome exactly the same as his grandson. StuRat 22:20, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

No, it doesn't. It's not a point mutation, it's the mechanism by which genes are reassorted between a chromosome pair, making the "daughter" chromosome different from either of the "parents". Your mistake is in thinking that chromosomes are transmitted without recombination, i.e., as units, rather than as a mixture of genes from a chromosome pair. - Nunh-huh 22:45, 26 June 2006 (UTC) (And the comparisons in "paternity" tests are not of whole chromosomes, but of specific gene loci or other markers.) - Nunh-huh 22:50, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

Isn't there a test where they add a dye to the chromosomes and look for identical banding patterns ? Such a test would compare whole chromosomes, not individual genes. StuRat 15:17, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

Random somewhat-related article: Y-chromosomal Adam —Keenan Pepper 16:13, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

I'm no scientist (and this isn't the science desk) but here are my thoughts. First, a Y-chromosome test would not be that useful because in theory it can give a positive result if the two subjects are, say, sixth cousins (with a common ancestor on the paternal line) just as if they are grandfather and grandson. As for a "regular" DNA test, if you had just the two individuals you could look at a large number of junk-DNA segments (which statistically have a very high degree of variability among humans) and if the individuals are grandfather and grandson, then approximately one-quarter of these specially-chosen DNA segments should match. However, a one-quarter match could just as easily be uncle-and-nephew. Could also be two half-brothers, I think. Maybe a variety of other relationships as well. --Mathew5000 20:29, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

For more info, search Google on the keywords grandpaternity dna. --Mathew5000 20:47, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

Iran's foreign relations

Hi,

I'm working on a schoolpaper about Iran, about the Islamic Revolution in 1979 and the consequences and outcome. Now, what I really would like to add is the diplomatic relationship between Iran and the Netherlands (where I'm from). It's easy to find information about the US, but I can't find what I want to add. Can anyone help me? Thanks. --Soetermans 09:23, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

As far as I know only the US and the UK (after the Rushdy fatwa) broke off existing diplomatic relations. But why don't you ask the information service of the Dutch Foreign Office, buza @ postbus51.nl? --Lambiam^Talk 09:59, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

Thanks Lambiam, I'll try that! --Soetermans 13:21, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

Modified Dutch Foreign Office e-mail to make it spam-harvester resistant.--ByeByeBaby 13:31, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

Won't the @ sign still give it away? Anyway, this email address must be all over the place, so dont' they get loads of spam then anyway? Or aren't spammers all that stupid? DirkvdM 18:23, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

Redeeming Social Values

Hello!

What does these expression means:

Redeeming Social Values; No Redeeming Social Values?

Best regards,

_____ 09:56, 26 June 2006 (UTC)Oculto

To me, it means that something has a justification for existing that may not immediately be apparent. For example, one person might say that The Texas Chainsaw Massacre has no redeeming social value and is simply a grotesque horror film. Someone else might argue that it has redeeming social value in that, aside from all the gore, it has things to say about the society in which we live. I'm sure others will be able to think of better examples... --Richardrj 10:08, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

Schindler's List might be an example of a horrific movie which does have something important to say, while none of the Halloween movies have anything important to say about anything, StuRat 15:41, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

Sure, but Schindler's List is perhaps not the type of film that one would describe as having "redeeming social value", because it doesn't have those negative aspects in the first place. In order for the phrase to be appropriate, you'd need to have that contrast between something's apparent lack of content and its redeeming value. --Richardrj 15:55, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

Then how about the original Japanese Godzilla movies, which seemed to be just silly monster movies, but did have an environmental message in them that nuclear weapons testing and usage was likely to have profound, negative, unexpected consequences ? StuRat 16:30, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

Absolutely, that would be a good example of some apparent schlock having redeeming social value. --Richardrj 18:19, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

By the way, this question would have been better asked on the language reference desk. --Richardrj 16:00, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

physical education

Its is true that a girl who enter physical activity may lost her virginity

No, but her hymen may rupture. Virginity is not to be equated with an intact hymen. Her hymen may also begin as incompletely obstructive or perforated. Additionally, she may break the hymen without anything overly strenuous. It's a part of the body intended to tear, so it shouldn't be awfully surprising that sometimes it tears without sexual intercourse. Geogre 12:44, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

Female virginity has been defined in many cultures solely by the existence of an intact hymen. This is because that can be easily verified, while her history of sexual activity can't. This does lead to some humorous results, however, like many women "losing their virginity" to a horse. This is why the "sidesaddle" method of horseback riding was developed for women. StuRat 15:35, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

Engaging in certain forms of physical activity with a partner of the opposite sex may entail a woman's loss of virginity. However, these are usually not part of the phys ed programme. As to the hymen test, some women are born without one. So can't they lose their virginity because they never had one? --Lambiam^Talk 16:42, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

Do you have a citation for that claim about sidesaddles, Stu? --LarryMac 16:05, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

No, and I would expect some reluctance to talk about this somewhat delicate topic, making it difficult to find a frank discussion. Girls bicycles not having a bar may also be related to this, as one fall on the bar could cause the hymen to tear. (Dresses might also be a problem with the bar, but not many girls would wear a dress while riding a bike today, so why are they still barless ?) StuRat 16:46, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure the bar is because of dresses. As for changing fashion -- girls who do not wear dresses and do not care if there is a bar there no doubt just buy "boy" bikes. It would make no sense for them to make "girl" bikes with a bar (what would the difference be, then -- a paint job?). --Fastfission 17:43, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

Virginity is in the mind. --mboverload@ 22:51, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

Mahler

Could someone tell me what the slow movement of Mahler5th depicts? Muriel

If you type "Mahler" in the search box in the upper left, you will get the article Gustav Mahler. Near the bottom is his work. You can click on a link to Symphony No. 5 (Mahler). At the bottom of that, you will find links to more online resources about this particular symphony. --Kainaw ^(talk) 19:34, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

What leads you to think it depicts something? Most symphonic music is not meant to depict something. Works that do, such as The Sorcerer's Apprentice, are the exception. --Lambiam^Talk 19:40, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

Most music "appreciation" teachers feel that all music must depict something. I had one who said that since a specific song was "pastoral", it must represent a "pasture". I asked why it couldn't represent a "pastor" and he became very angry at the wordplay. --Kainaw ^(talk) 19:42, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

mmm, and composers are often a bit enigmatic with their terms as well. many people thought Vaughan Williams' Pastoral Symphony was about the English countryside when the 'pastures' it depicts are actually the empty scarred battlefields of France in World War I. but back to the point, just because the Mahler movement does not depict a 'real' image there is still the question of what emotions Mahler is conveying in it. but that is really another matter. --Alex.dsch 09:09, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

In Need Of Help

I am gain in need of your superior abilities for help in the quiz I am doing.

http://img141.imageshack.us/my.php?image=19qr7.jpg Can you please tell me who this man is... he had a capital city named after him.

Looks like James Monroe. See Russian F 18:46, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

http://img67.imageshack.us/my.php?image=26we.jpg Please do you know what this statue is... it`s apparently the principal figure of a poem.

The ancient mariner, from Samuel Taylor Coleridge's The Rime of the Ancient Mariner ("Instead of the cross, the Albatross / About my neck was hung.") - Nunh-huh 19:06, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

and finally.. http://img141.imageshack.us/my.php?image=43xo1.jpg this system is named after a French Scientist any ideas on who he is ?

Notice that the X and Y axes are labeled volume and pressure, respectively. I suspect the quadrilateral ABCD is made up of two isotherms? In any case, it seems that the graph is related to some aspect of the ideal gas laws, of which the most pertinent would seem to be Boyle's law. The problem is that Boyle, of course, wasn't French, but, as our article states, "Edme Mariotte (1620-1684) was a French physicist who discovered the same law independently of Boyle in 1676, so this law is often known as Mariotte's or Mariotte Boyle law." Confirmation of this is needed, though, I'm not at all certain of what the graph is particularly representing. - Nunh-huh 19:06, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

Or could it be Nicolas Léonard Sadi Carnot and the Carnot cycle, what with the arrowheads? --Lambiam^Talk 19:18, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

Indeed, see [5]. --Lambiam^Talk 19:25, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

Again much appreciated.

ships

iam trying to research a ship called barque rosalie, the year was either 1886 or 1887. my great grandfather sailed on it but i dont know where to start looking to find it. im tracing my family tree and would love to know more about this ship

• A barque is a sailing ship with three or more masts; that's not part of the name, which would be Rosalie. Can you give us more information about your great grandfather, such as what country he lived in? --Halcatalyst 20:46, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

There was a ship named the "Barque Rosalie" that transported immigrants to Philadelphia aroung 1844, probably the same ship you're talking about. In ships passenger lists, the name of your grandfather, the port of departure, the destination port (as well asw the date, which you've provided) may narrow down the search. - Nunh-huh 20:56, 26 June 2006 (UTC)*

Try Lloyd's Register--hotclaws**==(81.136.162.4 05:03, 27 June 2006 (UTC))

Fall of Syracuse

The article on the Second Punic War dates the end of the seige of Syracuse at 211 BC, but several sources I've seen at give the date as 212 BC. Can anyone confirm one date or the other.

If the date is 212, is this before or after the Battle of the Upper Baetis in Hispaia. It says that that battle was "in late 212 BC", so it would probably have fallen before, but If anyone could tell me that specificly it would help alot. Thanks.

The article Syracuse, Italy states: "Hiero's successor, the young Hieronymus (ruled from 215 BC), broke the peace with the Romans, who, led by consul Marcus Claudius Marcellus, besieged the city in 214 BC. The city held out for three years, but fell in 212 BC." This suggests it was late 212, or else it would have been "two years". The article on Archimedes also has 212, as does one source in print I could consult. On the other hand, the article List of battles of the Second Punic War lists the Battle of the Upper Baetis in 211 BC! --Lambiam^Talk 21:36, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

Thats strange. The inconsistencies pile up. The article The Second Punic War says Syracus fell in 211 after a Two year seige.

As for the Battle of the Upper Baetis The article on Hasdrubal Barca says the battle was fought in late 212 BC, but the page on the battle itself says it was in 211.... --Krakenofthesea 22:11, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps you should look for official documents on for the death date of Archimedes. His official website says that Syracuse fell in 212. Here it also says 212.
Russian F 22:44, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

Searching an article: Nome de guerre

I am searching for a article which describes the concept of "nome de guerre". Like "espirit du corps" it comes from the french language and basicly means a nickname obtained by a military unit because of some famous action, etc. I searched allready but perhaps it is simply spelt wrongly (I am not fluent in french). Flamarande 20:31, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

Close enough... Pseudonym#Nom de guerre --zenohockey 20:41, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

• You'll find what you're looking for at Nom_de_guerre#Nom_de_guerre. --Halcatalyst 20:41, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

Also, for future reference -- esprit de corps (which redirects to Morale). --LarryMac 16:00, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

I believe that both articles are simply wrong. "Nome de guerre" is described as basicly an "alias" used by the resistance, and "espirit de corps" is simply described as morale.

As far as I know Nome de Guerre is rather a name gained because of some wellknown action (heroic or not) of a military unit which then adopts this name, turning it an official one for it. "Espirit de corps" was mainly coined by Napoleon and is basicly a bit of arrogance/belief in oneself's superiority against his enemy (If we believe we are better, then we are), It also a kind of mental resistance to survive and will to win no matter what, and a wilingness to support ones comrades-in-arms no matter the odds (a la: We will leave noone behind). It is fostered primarly in elite/special units. I might be wrong, though (highly unlikely in these particular cases). Flamarande 16:14, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

If you think that additional information is needed in either article, then be bold and edit -- with proper citations of course. But please at least use the correct spellings, which have been provided for you. --LarryMac 19:53, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

And what's all this talk about gnomes de guerre? We shouldn't be using gnomes in war! Those poor innocent creatures should be left alone to go about their own business in the shrubs without being drawn into human squabbles! It's an outrage! -- Miss Emily Letella, a.k.a. Ground Zero | t 19:59, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

Lightbulb

How many humanities specialists does it take to change a lightbulb? --Dweller 20:33, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

Including yourself? Flamarande 20:35, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

This question has been posted on all reference desks ( except /M) --hydnjo talk 20:54, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

I can't resist (I have a weakness for lightbulb jokes): "How many Marxists does it take to screw in a lightbulb?" A. "None: the lightbulb has to develop its own revolution from within." Geogre 01:47, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

Nice try Geogre, but the scientists have won this. Shame... I was rooting for you guys. --Dweller 06:43, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

One. And a ladder. And a notebook. And some photocopies. And a penguin classic paperback. And a computer science major she's friends with who'll be glad to help her technically while she reads at the beach, and writes some of her thoughts in the notebook. Also, a highlighter would be beneficial so she can mark up the photocopies. And, obviously, her friend needs a new lightbulb to replace the old one with, but I'm sure he'll be glad to purchase/supply one.

How many Microsoft vice presidents does it take? A: "That is proprietary information. As soon as you have paid the appropriate licensing fees and signed the EULA, you will be automatically updated to Lightbulb 2.0." Geogre 19:19, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

Majority Government

When was the last time that Canada had a majority government?

The Liberal Party formed Canada's last majority government following the federal election of 2000. It was their 3rd straight majority, caputuring 172 of 301 possible seats.

Coalition govenrment

When was the last time that Canada had a coalition government?

1917 perhaps? Try Unionist Party (Canada) and Canadian federal election, 1917. Adam Bishop 00:00, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

Sport and regeneration

At the moment I'm researching the how much hosting major sporting events (Commonwealth Games, Olympics, various World Cups etc) affect the regeneration of cities. Are there any good links to websites that document this well? (at the moment most of the information I have found has been about the Manchester Commonwealth Games) --iamajpeg 20:59, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

I would guess that they help in the short run but possibly hurt in the long run, as excess stadium capacity leads to abandoned buildings and urban blight. A continuous source of income is what cities need, not just rare events. StuRat 22:27, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

Maybe, maybe not. Remember that major sports events are great advertisements for the cities - increases in tourism tend to last for a considerable time. ISTR that Barcelona is still reaping benefits tourism-wise after the olympics they held a dozen or more years ago. Grutness...wha? 03:04, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

Heres an analysis of the economic and regeneration effects of the Olympic Games link Jameswilson 03:18, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

Also, the renovation of the city around the venues adds revenue. It isn't just arenas that are built. There are new transportation facilities, new housing, street improvements, etc. In addition, the Olympic host citiess are also hosts to Olympic Arts Festivals, which often lead to the building or renovation of new museums and art galleries. User:Zoe|^(talk) 03:16, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

Excess capacity in transportation, housing, roads, museums, galleries, etc., is also a problem. Unless there is a permanent increase in population or tourism to pay for and occupy those things, they will fall into disuse and disrepair and cause urban blight. StuRat 15:29, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

• Manchester did well developing an area after the Commonwealth games and used the stadium to replace an old soccer stadium so it is still in full use,but us canny Northerners don't like to waste money.It all came in under budget as well.Pish-tosh Wembley Stadium! hotclaws**==(81.136.162.4 05:08, 27 June 2006 (UTC))

• Does that thriftiness seep over the border from Scotland ? BTW, what happened to the old, abandoned soccer stadium ? StuRat 15:29, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

Adrimalty Law

I once heard some milita guy state that all US law that is not common law or maybe just all law is actually adrimalty law at its core. Or something like that. What do you think? 21:32, 26 June 2006 (UTC)(Hobgoblin)

First, it is admiralty law. Second, it is clearly defined as "laws that govern maritime issues". Perhaps he was claiming that the U.S. is a maritime vessel and all laws on it are maritime laws. If so, he's a nut. --Kainaw ^(talk) 21:37, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

You have to read the articles Common law and Civil law. The first is based upon the old english law and was inherited by these impudent colonials. Flamarande 21:42, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

Blue Streak Sound Track

Does anyone know what the title of the song is that has jazzy-ish/electric piano in it? It's played frequently throughout the film, but does not appear to be in the list of songs in Blue Streak's soundtrack (I've downloaded a few likely candidates and sampled even more, but I can't find it!). --71.117.39.90 21:43, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

IMDB lists three songs from the movie that are not on the soundtrack at amazon.com: "Nuthin' But A "G" Thang" by Snoop Dogg, Leon Haywood and Frederick Knight, "Jungle Brother (Urban Takeover Remix)" Written by Nathaniel Hall, Samuel Burwell, Michael Small and Michael Oliver Performed by Jungle Brothers, and "Seis Salines" Traditional, Arranged by Edwin Colon Zayas Performed by Edwin Colon Zayas Y Su Taller Campesino. My guess is maybe "Seis Salines"? I have never seen the movie, so I can't be much help... 128.197.81.181 21:54, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the help, but unfortunately I can't find it. "Seis Salines" turned out to be a Mexican ballad, or something like that. Again, I appreciate the help. --71.117.39.90 00:24, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

looking for list biggest chinese cities

Hello,

this question may seem weird, but some time ago I found a list here of the 50 biggest (in population) Chinese cities. Now both Google and Wikipedia Search button don't seem to bring me back to that page. I just can't find it anymore. Does it still exist?

Thanks,

Evilbu 21:50, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

List of cities in China should do the trick — Lomn | Talk 21:55, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

Alternately, [6] is a list of cities in China with more than 100,000 inhabitants (but the list is more than 50 cities long). 128.197.81.181 21:59, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

Thanks, I really couldn't find it back, even though the name is indeed quite logic. Evilbu 14:12, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

al?

How do I propose adding an article to Wikipedia?

Under the heading of "wisdom", I would like to add an article called "wisdom-inquiry". Wisdom-inquiry is academic inquiry rationally devoted to seeking and promoting wisdom, construed as the capacity to realize what is of value in life, for oneself and others, wisdom thus including knowledge and technological know-how, but much else besides. The English philosopher, Nicholas Maxwell, has published a number of books and articles on wisdom-inquiry. See, in particular, his "From Knowledge to Wisdom" (Blackwell, 1984), and his website www.nick-maxwell.demon.co.uk How do I go about proposing such an article? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Scruple (talk • contribs)

Seeing as you have a username, just go ahead and write it yourself! See Help:Starting a new page, part of the Wikipedia:Editing FAQ. Good luck and I hope it goes well! Ziggurat 23:53, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

June 27

1996 movie "Michael" (Starring John Travolta) obscure reference in credits

In the credits for the 1996 movie "Michael" there is an acknowledgement to MTM productions for the use of a clip from the Mary Tyler Moore Show. Where in the movie does the show clip appear? Thank you.

--207.69.139.7 02:43, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

Baptist Marriage

Do Baptist Believe that marriage is a sacrament ?

All Christian churches recognize three rites: baptism, marriage, and burial of the dead. Geogre 04:32, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

Not really. See Sacrament. --Nelson Ricardo 04:55, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

Not only not really, but not even close. A lot of Evangelical Protestants consider that only baptism and communion are sacrements. I suspect that includes a lot of baptists, but not necessarily all. Incidentally, Baptists are not a denomination in the same sense that Anglicans or Roman Catholics are; there are lots of different branches of Baptist, and they don't necessarily believe the same things. DJ Clayworth 14:44, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

You guys are playing very hard with the meaning of "sacrament." It's true that the Baptists are congregational, so there is huge variety, but ... well, all I can say is that I've never seen one that didn't recognize marriage as a sacrament in the same sense that baptism and "communion" is. Now, what these churches think of sacrament itself is very, very, very different from what the older churches think. There are seven sacraments, as our article indicates, but there is a minimum three, too. We're about to go way off the rails with technicality, I think. Geogre 15:42, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

"Christian churches hold sacraments to have been instituted by Jesus". Of the seven "roman" ones cited in our article, some he instituted, and some he submitted to (baptism, anointment of the sick (only : feet oiled by the Magdalene). And if he married her, that was kept secret. When did he say "do the same" ? for one prayer, forgiveness, and eucharism. Churches and groups do what they like - he won't come and tell "I never said that". --DLL 18:27, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

Jesus attended a wedding in Canaan and blessed it in the Gospel of John. Geogre 19:17, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

US Presidential election colours

I was looking at some Wikipedia articles, and I noticed that until the United States presidential election, 2000, red was used to symbolise Democratic voting states and Blue was used to symbolise Republican states. Since 2000, though, it's been the other way around. Red = Republican and blue = Democratic. Why the switch? Battle Ape 07:50, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

As far as I know the change was made by TV networks for reasons known only to themselves. Incidentally there was research carried out last year into the effect of different coloured strips on the achievement of sporting teams. They concluded that teams with red colours are more likely to win. AllanHainey 11:52, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

Interestingly, in Britain red is the colour of the left-of-centre (but increasingly less so) Labour Party, while blue is the colour of the right-wing Conservative Party. --Richardrj 12:36, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

What began as the whim of a TV graphics designer and has since become a cultural convention. Personally, it seems a little odd, since everywhere else in the world, red is used for left-leaning parties and blue for right-leaning parties. But it isn't likely to change anytime soon, considering how well-established the imagery of the "red state" and "blue state" has become in the public imagination. Hell, "blue" has started to become a shorthand term for "Democrat", particularly "Liberal Democrat", on the Internet (e.g. ActBlue.com, Blue Mass Group, etc). They're silly terms, but what are you going to do? Americans like to identify groups by their colors. Remember the blue and gray? Bhumiya (said/done) 13:08, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

Mormon belief of God

In this article it mentions

"Mormons, for example, hold that the God of this universe — who created humanity (or at least guided our evolution) — was once Himself a mortal being who was created by a previous God in a prior universe or context."

Is this true? I can't find any reference to this belief in either the Mormon article or in Articles of Faith (Mormonism). Thanks! Madd4Max 14:01, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

That seems to be the case, as this article in a Mormon wiki would indicate. However it seems to be something that the LDS don't like to talk about and it doesn't make it into Wikipedia articles. DJ Clayworth 14:23, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

It seems difficult to check the source indicated in that m&m wiki. It is only a .edu that is difficult to link with [last saint's] "official" site. What do you think ? --DLL 18:17, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

Little boy exploded a bit too late?

I heard a rumor that Little boy, the nuclear device, exploded a bit later than expected, when it was dropped over Hiroshima. For a very brief moment, that apparently would have made it look like the worst thing was about to happen : a harmless, but perfectly armed new weapon was just 'donated' to the Japanese.

Is that correct?

Evilbu 14:12, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

Yes and no. Per this site, the fuze was set for 610 meters (though the site incorrectly labels the fuze as radar-, rather than atmospheric pressure-, driven). The bomb actually exploded at 580 meters, so there was a 30 meter lag. Assuming a ballpark terminal velocity of 400 km/h, that's a "late" detonation of about a quarter-second. So yes, the detonation appears to have been late, but it was late by an insignificant amount, and absolutely no one was capable of monitoring the bomb's altitude anyway.

The most likely explanation is that the crews simply became increasingly nervous, as the bomb fell, that something would go wrong -- even though the bomb was on schedule and operating as planned. — Lomn | Talk 14:50, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

(Little Boy had both proximity (radar) fuses as well as barometric fusing. Just a nit-pick.) --Fastfission 17:33, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

Also, I suspect that, even if the bomb didn't detonate, that it would have been destroyed on impact due to the force of the impact and explosion of the conventional explosives onboard. Thus, it would act as a far less effective "dirty bomb", but would be rendered useless in the process. Nuclear weapons dropped by parachute or landing in water are more likely to survive the impact, however. StuRat 15:04, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

Good point. It also seems plausible that, as a gun-type weapon with only two pieces of fissile material, impacting could have created a (very-low-yield) critical mass on its own. — Lomn | Talk 15:40, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

As for the bomb not going off... An often-repeated story is that the scientists who developed the bombs told the President to invite all the heads of the world to Nevada to see it for themselves and they would surely quit fighting. However, the President was afraid of what would happen if there was a glitch and the explosion didn't happen. So, he said that they would drop both bombs and, if they didn't work, the Japanese would just think they were regular bombs that didn't go off for some reason. I have never seen anything official to back this story up, but I hear it in just about every documentary I see on the bombs. --Kainaw ^(talk) 15:48, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

My solution would be to demonstrate it to a group of Japanese POWs. If it worked, send them home to tell Japan about it, if not, just keep them as prisoners until the war was over. StuRat 16:56, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

Do you think the Tokyo command would have believed the fantastical stories of a group of Japanese POWs to the point of surrendering an empire? They didn't even believe the first reports that the attack on Hiroshima was caused by a single bomb until after the attack on Nagasaki, if I recall. --Fastfission 17:33, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

At the time, Japanese military culture considered surrendered soldiers to rank slightly below "scum of the earth". Soldiers were supposed to die rather than be captured, so the POWs probably wouldn't even have been listened to. --Serie 20:37, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

So basically the bomb had an altitude measuring system to determine the time of detonation, rather than a timer? Thanks. Yes the Japanese POW plan would probably not have worked, but what would have worked is a demonstration on some island.Evilbu 19:18, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

Civics Question

Can you please give me the refference to the prime minister of India AGAIN?Please.

Try putting "prime minister of india" in the search bar at left -- it's quicker. — Lomn | Talk 14:52, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

Hypothetical UK flag query

If, hypothetically, Scotland were to declare its independence from the UK, how likely is it that the Union Jack be altered? My guess would be "not very", but maybe I'm wrong. Note that I'm not asking about the likelihood of Scotland declaring its independence. But if it did, how would it affect the flag and the national symbols? Also, would the common name of the country be changed (e.g. from "United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland" to "United Kingdom of England, Wales, and Northern Ireland"? Bhumiya (said/done) 14:50, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

This is a hypothecital qestion and as such has no real answer. It would largely depend upon the will of the parlament, the wishes of the prime minister, and the mood of the mob. Flamarande 15:07, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

rarest CD

As noted in record collecting, most record collectors are only interested in vinyl records. The article names some of the rarest and most collectable records in the world, but doesn't mention CDs. So my question is, what is the most collectable/valuable CD? --Richardrj 14:52, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

The Guinness Book of World records online doesn't seem to have an entry for this, and I can't see another mention of the rarest CD anywhere else, just discussion of the "rarest" CD for particular artists in forums! EVOCATIVEINTRIGUE TALKTOME | EMAILME 15:10, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

Another Scottish independence query

That last Scottish question was certainly hypothetical, but this one isn't. I'm wondering how the Scottish independence movement is viewed outside of Scotland. Does it have much support/sympathy in England, Wales, and Ireland? Are non-Scots largely apathetic, or is it perhaps viewed with hostility? Bhumiya (said/done) 15:18, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

Now we are suposed to answer for whole countries/peoples? It largely depends upon politics, and politicians (and the mob) change their political opinions alltoo quickly. My personal view: What would the Scotts gain? They are not oppresed in any way that I know of. Beside a Scottish (at least a descendend of Scotts) monarch sits upon the British throne. Flamarande 15:26, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

The Lark Ascending

I initially just heard this over the radio and I noticed that The Lark Ascending by Vaughn Williams sounds a lot like Chinese classical music. However, it's quite sad that very little Westerners make this observation and go on to praise it as "portraying English beauty"? Anyhow, it was accomplished with a Western orchestra, yet it sounds so much like there's an erhu and a guqin in it. Even the saxophones sound like saxophones, yet it's not their normal style. Another editor before me noticed the same thing but I'm afraid it is rather original research, even though it is highly likely - what a pity. I'm very highly piqued because I thought I was listening to a fusion piece. I didn't know the violin could be used in such a way to sound like Chinese music. John Riemann Soong 15:48, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

It is possible that the choice of the musical scale gives the general impression of the piece. --DLL 17:58, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

Perception of art is an exchange between the artist and the reader/viewer/hearer. The knowledge, taste, culture and experiences of different hearers are naturally different. Your "quite sad" comment might be a bit shallow and ethnocentric. What would you think if an English listener heard a piece of Chinese music and thought "what a pity the chinese think it sounds chinese and don't realize it sounds like Vaughn Williams"? alteripse 19:11, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

Except it doensn't sound like most of his other pieces. I don't hear many pieces quite like this, and I mean not in terms of melody or portrayal or wonderfulness, but the time signature as well. Of course I thought it was a rather funny coincidence (and had no idea it was Williams and so far back) until I saw the article in which another editor had put his views there. My "quite sad" comment refers to the possible plagiarism from another piece, not from another genre - because I've never heard what the Nightingale piece sounds like so I can't confirm for myself. John Riemann Soong 20:32, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

Saxophone? Weird. I have the Academy of Ancient Music version of it -- quite wonderful. The intervals are a little exotic, in that there are more half-steps and such, but -- de gustibus non disputandem est -- I didn't think it sounded very Chinese. Another possible explanation is the mimesis: Williams was attempting to describe lark song and lark flight, and birds are a common enough theme in Chinese music (at least the trad. Chinese music that I've heard). Geogre 19:14, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

Something very mellow - including the clarinets, too - (although for example they seem to interchange quite well for moods - ie. for Pelleas et Melisande by Faure). I thought it weird because it almost seems that Williams is trying on purpose to sound exotic, but yet it's used to describe an English landscape? (Some other review sites seem to make the remark). I'm just trying to investigate more. John Riemann Soong 20:47, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

secretary cursive and bookhand.

What were the secretary handwriting styles of the 14th and 15th centuries? How did they relate to blackletter or humanist handwriting. Zeimusu | Talk page 15:55, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

If you mean in England and Europe, then secreterial handwriting from as early as 1315 (attested 1321) to almost the end of the 1400s (the style was already widely proscibed in 1498) enjoyed a major blackletter/humanist revival of doing your own homework..

We do have a blackletter article although this is admittedly not that good (admittedly since I wrote much of it using class notes). "Secretary" styles are just cursive variants of the formal types of Gothic or blackletter, which made it easier and quicker to write. In what sense do you want to know how they are related? Adam Bishop 16:23, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

Children of Hannibal

There is an alternate history, Hannibal's Children. But, did Hannibal historicly have any children; did he even marry/have consorts or anything?

Try [[7]]. There might have been a child of Hannibal but the issue is a bit unclear. Flamarande 19:32, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

Where to Buy a Guqin

I live in Massachusetts, U.S., and I was wondering where, if anyone knows, could one buy a guqin in Massachusetts or if somebody could direct me to a website online that has them. Thank you. -----Seclipse21 18:18, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

Well, eBay has one for $400... Madd4Max 18:54, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

tablerock furniture company

Hi! My name is Dwaine and I'm trying to get some information on tablerock furniture company that used to be located in Morganton North Carolina. I have some furniture built by that company and I'm trying to get some idea of when they were built. Any information would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!

Hi Dwaine.

A Google search didn't bring much up, unless it happened to be on Table Rock Rd... EVOCATIVEINTRIGUE TALKTOME | EMAILME 19:07, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

Morganton, NC has a lot of furniture manufacturers. I've never heard of one named Tablerock. The popular ones are Drexel and Henredon. There is a big furniture mart in Morganton. Workers there would know if there is a Tablerock Furniture Co nearby. --Kainaw ^(talk) 19:34, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

I asked a coworker (Dr. Brackett) who is from Asheville, NC. He said that his dad worked for Drexel in the Table Rock Furnture Plant in Morganton. --Kainaw ^(talk) 19:38, 27 June 2006 (UTC)