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January 27[edit]

Diameter of the circumscribed circle of a Canadian Loonie[edit]

The Loonie article contains a bit of a contradiction:

 The coin's outline is an 11-sided Reuleaux polygon. Its diameter of 26.5 mm...

A Reuleaux polygon does not have a diameter. Instead, it has a width. In the context of coins, the Circumscribed circle of a Reuleaux polygon does indeed have a diameter. This leads me to believe that the 26.5 mm measure may be referring to the diameter of the Circumscribed circle instead.

But I found this site which claims that the width of the Loonie is 26.5 mm[1]. If that's indeed the case, then the diameter of the Circumscribed circle would be slightly larger than 26.5 mm.

So which is true here?

A. The Loonie has a width of 26.5 mm (and a larger circumscribed circle diameter).

B. The Loonie has a circumscribed circle diameter of 26.5 mm (and a smaller width).

Helian James (talk) 04:47, 27 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Is the size difference smaller than 0.05 mm so that it doesn't matter? Anyone have a handy formula? Rmhermen (talk) 05:01, 27 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
The size difference is very tiny. User:Jacobolus on the Math reference desk just solved the ratio to be approximately 1.0103[2]. So the difference is approximately 0.27 mm. Helian James (talk) 05:30, 27 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
One common mathematical definition for the diameter of an arbitrary bounded shape is the maximal distance between any two points on its boundary. Equivalently (for planar shapes), it is the width of the least square in which the shape can rotate. There is no common mathematical definition for the width of an arbitrary shape, but a plausible definition is the width of a rectangle of least height in which the shape will fit. So the diameter of a 3×4 rectangle equals 5, while its width would be 4. These two notions coincide for circles. For Reuleaux polygons, these notions coincide too, which is in fact a defining feature.  --Lambiam 08:09, 27 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

First, mathematicians love to generalize the meanings of words. You say the figure doesn't have a diameter; I look at "Generalized Diameter" on Mathworld and say that for this curve of constant width, what you (Helian) call the width may also legitimately be termed the diameter. I certainly assumed that what the Mint calls the diameter here was the width. But I was assuming.

Second, I just took two loonies from my wallet and measured them using two different household rulers. In each case the width (from one vertex to the opposite curve) was clearly very close to 26 mm: I would estimate it at 26.1 mm. So I wonder if maybe the 26.5 mm figure does indeed relate to the circumscribed circle. -- (talk) 08:13, 27 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

-- (talk) 08:13, 27 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Given the margin of error in the construction of household rulers and the tolerances for the size of a coin in circulation, which can get worn and dinged in various ways, anything within a half a millimeter in either direction is functionally the same; Which is to say that 26.1 and 26.5 are going to be essentially the same in this context. --Jayron32 12:51, 27 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Is there a doctor Canadian in the room who has access to a metric vernier caliper?  --Lambiam 16:02, 27 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Note that the 26.5 mm figure comes from the Royal Canadian Mint who actually make the thing. Alansplodge (talk) 17:32, 27 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Right. My point was mainly that 26.1mm (obtain by sticking a loonie next to a wooden ruler) and 26.5mm are not functionally different measurements, given the tolerances of the measuring method in question. --Jayron32 19:42, 27 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • I didn't say "wooden"; they were transparent plastic rulers, which are easier to use for this sort of measurement. And the difference between 26.1 and 26.5 mm is large enough that error in the ruler does not seem likely to account for it. See also Lambiam's item below. -- (talk) 04:50, 28 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • How bold of you to assume the tolerance in the construction of the ruler means that the markings are within 0.5mm/26 (about 2%). I would suspect the average household ruler, made of any material, is not likely to be more accurate than +/-2% --Jayron32 13:04, 30 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
The question is, though, whether the Mint used the term diameter in the sense defined in our article Metric space as the "diameter of a metric space" and at MathWorld as "generalized diameter", or did they perhaps use it in the sense of the diameter of the circumscribed circle? While the difference between 26.1 and 26.5 mm is small, it is not beyond the precision of generally available accurate measuring instruments to tell the difference.  --Lambiam 00:44, 28 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
A Canuck with a metric vernier caliper says: both my 1989 and my 2012 Loonies measure 26.45 to 26.50 mm from the flats to the various diametrically opposed points. Per the Canadian Mint site (thanks user:Alansplodge) both of these Loonies are listed as having a "diameter" of 26.5 mm. Let the analysis begin. I don't know that this is going to help, since without a reliable source as to what the Mint means by "diameter", all we can say is that the Mint specifies a "diameter" of 26.5 mm. Meters (talk) 06:03, 28 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • Thanks, your measurement with a more reliable instrument is appreciated, albeit surprising. -- (talk) 04:15, 30 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
It means we can now all enjoy a restful sleep, no longer tossing and turning worried that the Royal Canadian Mint abused the mathematical term diameter in a non-mathematical way. Since the Susan B. Anthony dollar has the same diameter but is circular and thus smaller than a Loonie circularified by circumscription, it follows that a Loonie in a stack of Susans has points sticking out by approximately 0.27 mm, which one should be able to notice by the fine sense of touch in one's fingertips.  --Lambiam 11:12, 28 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I'd have to go digging to find my vernier, but I can tell you as a Canadian that has handled many loonies that the sidings for a loony are very susceptible to deforming. Hot off the press, the edges are clean and clear but they very quickly become rounded. The only loony I've got at hand is one from 2012 and it's only just possible to discern that it ever had edges at all: at even less than arm's length it appears circular. Matt Deres (talk) 19:45, 31 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Book I can't remember the name of[edit]

There's a book I remember reading a while ago but I can't remember the name of. It is about a man who worked in the PR industry and his boss didn't like him, and the man ends up getting fired. He has two daughters and swears at them as they watch a special on Comedy Central. The book goes into detail on his job search as he looks for a new job. It talks about how he was in Africa somewhere and had guns pulled on him at a border crossing, but his group got out of it because one of them spoke French and offered the border guards a carton of cigarettes. If I remember correctly it had a forward or review by Mika Brzezinski. In the end the guy doesn't get a job but starts his own PR firm. Any help? Therapyisgood (talk) 05:08, 27 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Found it, it was Reset: How to Beat the Job-Loss Blues and Get Ready for Your Next Act. Therapyisgood (talk) 05:18, 27 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

African American names ending with -us[edit]

I've noticed a significant number of African Americans with given names ending with -us as if in an ancient Roman fashion: Cassius Clay, Marcus Allen, Titus Bramble, Demetrius Jackson, Tadarrius Bean, etc. Could this be explained somehow? (talk) 18:52, 27 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

See African-American names. It's a complex set of etymologies without a singular source, as can be seen under the "influences and conventions" section. For example, the "European and Biblical names" notes that "it is also still common for African Americans to use biblical, historic, or European names. Daniel, Christopher, Michael, David, James, Joseph, and Matthew were among the most common names for African-American boys in 2013" (bold mine). Cassius and Titus being common historical names, and Marcus also common enough among males of European descent (of which I have known several Marcuses). For the others such as Demetrius of Teadarrius, see the section of that article titled "Afrocentric and inventive names". In his dictionary of black names, Cenoura asserts that in the early 21st century, black names are "unique names that come from combinations of two or more names, names constructed with common prefixes and suffixes...'conjugated' with a formula..." So a name like "Tadarrius" could have been constructed by starting with "Darius" (an historical and Biblical name, see Darius the Great), with the prefix "Ta-". It looks from doing some google research that the book Black Names Matter by Bobby Cenoura may have some good, well-researched information on the topic as well. There are a number of other sources for further exploration in the Wikipedia article as well. --Jayron32 19:39, 27 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Thank you. (talk) 11:32, 29 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Note that Cassius Marcellus Clay (Muhammad Ali) was named after Cassius Marcellus Clay (his father), who was named after Cassius Marcellus Clay (unrelated), who was a notable abolitionist (but not African-American) who came from a family that was fond of using Roman names (and who named two of his own sons Cassius Marcellus Clay as well). Iapetus (talk) 13:58, 3 February 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Women working at lunch counters[edit]

Something is confusing me. In regards to any Woolworth lunch counter, was a woman working at one regarded as a lunch lady?2603:7000:8100:9390:A8F4:C049:6AB3:6D9A (talk) 20:28, 27 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

The term ”Lunch lady” is usually associated with those serving at school cafeterias, not commercial establishments. Blueboar (talk) 21:02, 27 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
[3]Dinner lady?
Sleigh (talk) 01:47, 28 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
"Tuck shop arms", or "tuck shop lady arms" has some currency Down Here. -- Jack of Oz [pleasantries] 20:23, 28 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

January 28[edit]

hedge funds and/or investment banks[edit]

Do fellow employees at investment banks and hedge funds like each other? A movie (The Big Short)that I watched made me think they do not. And a friend who is in college studying finance also says that employees at Goldman Sachs don't like each other.Rich (talk) 07:30, 28 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Compared to what? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 09:43, 28 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
i don't understand your question.Rich (talk) 10:09, 28 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Compared to other businesses or corporations. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 18:15, 28 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
good point, could be other industries and companies and associations that have colleagues that dislike each other, like Comcast and the GOP. Rich (talk) 21:38, 28 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Unavoidably, some will like each other and some won't. One may expect employees of such utterly materialistic and profit-driven institutions to be somewhat aligned with the nature of their work environment and care more about climbing up the corporate ladder than the well-being of their co-workers. But this can only be a tendency, not a fast rule.  --Lambiam 10:57, 28 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
That shows a lot of wisdom:-). any news reports, exposes, bloggers who are disgruntled employees etc? Rich (talk) 14:28, 28 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

I thought this was interesting. 2601:648:8200:990:0:0:0:F1B9 (talk) 08:21, 3 February 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

January 29[edit]

Case Closed[edit]

Please, can you help me to find the name of this prestigious French medail? Thank you. — Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 09:06, 29 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Information Hazard from a Legal Perspective[edit]

Are any laws or international agreements currently in force that can be applied to information hazards? Or would that be a restriction on freedom of speech? 2A02:908:424:9D60:F130:E2CE:9709:A67D (talk) 11:01, 29 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Yup, a guy who uploaded the blueprint for a 3D-printed gun was accused of exporting weapons without a license.
There is also the Wassenaar Agreement upon the export of encryption technology. tgeorgescu (talk) 11:09, 29 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
It is a complicated topic. For the free speech aspects in US law regarding encryption software, see Bernstein v. United States. 2602:24A:DE47:B8E0:1B43:29FD:A863:33CA (talk) 03:58, 30 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Papal regnal numbers[edit]

Are regnal numbers of popes assigned afterwards when two or more popes take the same name? Our list shows that popes whose whose regnal names weren't picked up by later popes, such as Zachary, Donus and Agatho, do not have the I number. Does it mean that all other popes originally didn't have the number upon election, because no one knew then if the name would be taken by another pope? (talk) 11:43, 29 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Is the section Regnal_number#"The_first" not sufficient to answer your question? --Wrongfilter (talk) 12:20, 29 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
For people who were alive in 1952, Elizabeth II's accession transformed Elizabeth of England into Elizabeth I (she was not usually referred to that way before 1952). AnonMoos (talk) 17:14, 29 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Pope John Paul I (elected 1978) must have had an inkling he wasn't long for this world (33 days) and that his successor would use the same regnal name, since "... he was the first pope to add the regnal number "I", designating himself "the First"." -- Jack of Oz [pleasantries] 19:57, 29 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
He took the (double) name to honour two preceding mentors. Perhaps he just wanted to encourage his successor(s) to do likewise. {The poster formerly known as} (talk) 20:20, 29 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
It occurs to me that he might have been concerned that people would refer to him as John XXIV Paul VII, or some such combination, and he used the regnal number I to make it clear not to do that. However, what occurs to me is irrelevant here. Are there any references for why he chose to use the I? -- (talk) 06:16, 30 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
The article on the Italian Wikipedia speculates that it is possible that this choice of adding the regnal number was linked to the novelty that the name was constituted by the union of the name of his two predecessors, but without citing a source.  --Lambiam 12:06, 30 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

January 30[edit]

USA: Are banks with low interests in savings/CDs making a lot of money now?[edit]

Before I get to the example, look at Capital 1. Last Sept., their interest rate for savings account was 2%. Then 2.15% Oct., 2.15% last Nov., hit 3% last December. Currently at 3.3%.

Then, look at Chase bank, their savings interest rate is .01%, Bank of America .03%. This means Capital 1 is paying >100x more interest than Chase. Therefore, banks like Chase are making a lot of money right now? What should be more same to me - is the interest people are paying banks for a loan like for homes, so. And Capital 1 is more of an on-line bank, with fewer branches, so they can afford to pay higher interest imo. Chase bank having too many branches is a lot of employees (and assistant managers etc) to pay for. So, I'm predicting banks like Chase are actually making revenue now. Could be from recent lawsuits they lost historically too.

Also note that, a month ago, both banks interest for 5 year CDs was > than 4 years CD > 2 and 1 years. Recently, both banks changed that, so now, the 2 year CD is higher interest than 5 year CDs. To me, that means banks are predicting interests will go down almost as soon as the Federal Reserve stops raising interest rates. (talk) 03:00, 30 January 2023 (UTC).Reply[reply]

Or the banks paying high interest rates on savings are desperate for some liquidity, even if it comes at a loss. PiusImpavidus (talk) 08:52, 30 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Are you sure you are making apples-to-apples comparisons for the type of account? There may be factors that make the accounts different (overdraft protection, minimum balance requirements, checking vs. savings, maximum withdrawal limits, debit card, etc. etc. etc.) that may account for the difference in interest rates; in other words rather than charging fees for certain services, the Chase account may simply provide less interest, but more service level with the account. The Capital One account may be more "bare bones" and offer less benefit to the customer in terms of features, which is why the bank offers higher interest rates. --Jayron32 13:19, 30 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Japan casualties in war agaist USA[edit]

And what are the losses of the Japanese in the war with the Americans? Just the same wiki says 1.1 million to 1.5 million Lone Ranger1999 (talk) 08:59, 30 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

For the same reasons that have been exhaustively explained to you in reply to your previous queries about casualty figures, the range of 1.1–1.5 million is the best figure that anyone can estimate. It is impossible to be more precise than this. {The poster formerly known as} (talk) 10:32, 30 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I don't see your "1.1M - 1.5M" figure in Pacific War which, as mentioned several times previously, makes it very hard to reply in detail when we have no idea what you're looking at. But, in the linked article, you can follow the reference to the secondary source that gives a figure of some 2.1M Japanese military deaths for the period 1937-1945.
Anyway, broad ranges have a couple of major sources. One is uncertainty in the estimates (such as seen in casualty estimates for the area bombings of Japanese cities). Another is uncertainty in scope (such as whether starvation deaths due to military blockade are classified as combat deaths). In either case, the ranges we present in articles should be in accordance with available reliable sources. "In my opinion, XYZ is the correct number", as per one of your previous comments in a Ref Desk question, is not an appropriate basis for proposing change. — Lomn 14:36, 30 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
There are just 1.1 million Japanese who "died in battle" with the Americans. And already on the page "Losses in World War II" it is written that 1,555,000 Japanese died in the Asia-Pacific region, which fits better with the figure of 2.3 million killed in the war of 1937-1945. 190k killed in the war with China in 1937-1941, 2.1 million in the Pacific War, of which 300k killed in Soviet captivity + 265k killed in the war with China in 1941-1945, taking into account that in total 455k Japanese were lost in the war with China, subtract 190 in between 1937-1941, it turns out that in the war with the United States, the Japanese lost 1.5 million dead Lone Ranger1999 (talk) 18:55, 30 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
You may also be interested in the many references available at World War II casualties#endnote_Japan, which uses information from a 1949 report by the Japanese government to provide a more detailed assignment of responsibility for Army casualties. (I do not know what "Losses in World War II" page you are referencing; the closest search result is for equipment losses such as vehicles) — Lomn 19:27, 30 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
It's important to point out that, despite the impression that Hollywood may have given, it wasn't the Americans alone who were at war with Japan. Australians were out there fighting the Japanese too, often in the same place and at the same time as Americans, as were soldiers from many other countries. I don't know how the numbers can be perfectly separated. HiLo48 (talk) 21:13, 30 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
It is impossible to find out how many Japanese were killed by an American bullet, in fact, the Americans did the main work, while the losses of the Americans are 8 times lower. Lone Ranger1999 (talk) 21:31, 30 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
You can look at Japanese casualties by theater in the data at the bottom of the Pacific War page. According to Japanese medical data, approximately 2/3 of their deaths during the war were from non-battle causes; these were especially severe in cases where Japanese forces were totally isolated from resupply by Allied air and naval blockades. Generally speaking the ratio of actual battle casualties was approximately 1:1 or at most 1:2 in the Allies' favor. Due to the character of island fighting there wasn't enough room for the Allies to use their advantage in maneuver and the Japanese were heavily dug in. The Pittsburgher (talk) 00:29, 31 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Я имел ввиду, что американцы именно убитыми потеряли в 8 раз меньше чем японцы. Lone Ranger1999 (talk) 20:04, 31 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
But why the sudden switch to Russian? --Golbez (talk) 20:50, 31 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Well, I’m accidental, but nevertheless, as I understand it, it was in the war with the USA that the Japanese lost 1,5 million killed by 1,1M army and 0,4M fleet Lone Ranger1999 (talk) 21:40, 31 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Google Translate says your Russian comment means "I meant that the Americans lost 8 times less than the dead than the Japanese". ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 08:19, 1 February 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Battle deaths against the US were probably in the 500,000 range (30% of Army deaths and, as a guess, 50% of Navy deaths). US battle deaths were about 100,000 and nonbattle deaths ~40,000. But the reason why Japanese battle deaths were higher was because they had nowhere to evacuate their wounded; they all died. The Japanese Navy additionally suffered catastrophic damage from US submarines and also among land-based personnel in the Philippines and Okinawa. On the other hand, the Americans could afford to have wounded and sick personnel evacuated back to the Hawaii or even the US mainland. Except for very early in the war, there were no circumstances where US forces were trapped on an island under siege. Because of this, it's more appropriate to compare overall Allied battle casualties against Japanese killed and prisoners; only comparing deaths to deaths paints an inaccurate picture of the fighting in the Pacific theater.The Pittsburgher (talk) 22:46, 31 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

January 31[edit]

Difficult advanced English[edit]

The English that is taught in school books, and used in movies, TV series are easy English, but some people speak with very difficult English using uncommon words and phrases, which are not easy to understand.

Which online newsppaers, magazines have articles, editorials or opinion pieces written in difficult English? 山のユキヒョウ (talk) 14:39, 31 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Hi, see readability for a discussion, including some of the systems used to test the difficulty level of a text. You can enter articles in an online readability checker tool (for example: to compare the levels of writing on different websites. (talk) 15:54, 31 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I wouldn't say that movies and TV series have easy English. News reports and documentaries are intended to be (hopefully) easy to understand, but in artistic endeavors, other factors can make it harder. The readability article centers about written text, but spoken media such as songs and films can feature English dialects, English slang, fast talking, mumbling that make it harder for non-natives. For example Trainspotting (film): Prior to its release in the United States, Miramax, the film's US distributor, requested that some of the dialogue be dubbed so the film would be easier to understand for American viewers unfamiliar with Scottish slang. Rap music also often uses Black Vernacular English and slang that non-Americans may be unfamiliar with. Euphuism was a prose style that deliberately tried to be hard to parse. --Error (talk) 18:27, 31 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
One source of more difficult English is writing about the law. For example, the US, UK, and Canada each have a Supreme Court and when they rule on a case they publish a statement of the reasons behind their decisions (and also sometimes a "dissent", where some of the judges explain why they did not agree with the decision). Here are some recent examples (all in PDF) from the US, from Canada, and from the UK. -- (talk) 21:04, 31 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

The Harder They Come was allegedly released in movie theaters in the U.S. with subtitles... AnonMoos (talk) 21:41, 31 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
In the UK too. It was the first time I had seen English subtitled for English speakers, but now it is quite common, for example in TV news interviews or documentaries. Itsmejudith (talk) 12:43, 2 February 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

You are probably better off reading literature rather than journalism for that sort of English. News reporting mostly tries to communicate facts straightforwardly, while literature tries to uncover more detailed textures of meaning. So it makes fuller use of the capabilities of the language. I'm not very literary myself, and this book is pretty old, but Moby Dick is imho a good example. It is public domain by now, so you can download it from Project Gutenberg or lots of other places for free. 2601:648:8200:990:0:0:0:F1B9 (talk) 08:27, 3 February 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

The Brides of Enderby[edit]

Today's anniversary of the North Sea flood of 1953 reminded me of Jean Ingelow's 'The High Tide on the Coast of Lincolnshire, 1571' and the lines

"Play uppe, play uppe, O Boston bells!
Ply all your changes, all your swells,
Play uppe, ‘The Brides of Enderby’"

Apparently "The Brides of Enderby" is or was or is said to be a peal rung at Boston Stump to warn of flooding or other danger. Does or did "The Brides of Enderby" even exist or was it an invention of Miss Ingelow's? If it is real then is there recording of the bells ringing it? Thank you, DuncanHill (talk) 23:51, 31 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

The bells! The bells! As far as I can work out, sadly, the tune never existed. See The Church Bells of of the County and City of Lincoln by Thomas North - File 05 - Pages 277 to 389, Addlethorpe to Dunston from the Whiting Society. This says that the question was asked in Notes and Queries, 6th Series, Vol. 2 Jul-Dec 1880, p. 86:
"The Bride of Enderby." Where can I obtain the tune and words of the above, which Jean Ingelow, in her poem, A High Tide on the Lincolnshire Coast, states to have been rung by the Boston bells as a storm warning ? W. S. C.
The reply comes on p. 198 - "The Brides of Enderby" (6th S. ii. 86).— W. S. C. cannot have the words or the tune, because they never existed. A few years ago, when the chimes were put in Boston Church, a friend of mine, thinking this tune ought to form a part of them, wrote to Jean Ingelow for information. She wrote back that there was no foundation whatever for the tune — that it was all invention on her part. [etc.] signed, R.R.
The North book goes on to say that someone did write a tune for the new Belgian carillon, but it was too florid and otherwise unsuitable. MinorProphet (talk) 02:17, 1 February 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I have summarised this and linked to this discussion on the Talk page of Mavis Enderby, which mentions the supposed peal. {The poster formerly known as} (talk) 13:04, 1 February 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Thanks @MinorProphet:, and The poster, much appreciated. It must be well over 30 years since Rudyard Kipling introduced me to the poem. The RefDesks are the 21st century Notes & Queries DuncanHill (talk) 03:20, 2 February 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I think Kipling is often treated as a whipping-boy for British colonialism in general: but in his Plain Tales from the Hills he betrays a deeper love for the entire edifice of British India, including the non-Europeans, than is generally credited to him: I find them on as a parallel with Saki's biting satires of Edwardian England. Long live Notes & Queries in its current incarnation. MinorProphet (talk) 16:34, 2 February 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

February 2[edit]

Carte des regions naturelles de France[edit]

I'm absolutely delighted by these two maps showing the natural regions of France: /media/wikipedia/commons/6/6f/Carte_des_regions_naturelles_de_France.JPG
I'm wondering if there are similar maps for other countries, with a similar level of detail. Thank you! (talk) 14:31, 2 February 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Here are links to the images in a more standard format:
File:Carte des regions naturelles de France.JPG
File:Les régions naturelles de France.jpg
AnonMoos (talk) 14:58, 2 February 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
It seems to be peculiar to France; these natural regions appear to be a combination of natural and historical. The article fr:Région naturelle de France seems to be saying that they have both a physical geographic and historical component. I'm not sure every country makes such divisions. --Jayron32 15:52, 2 February 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
OP here. I was able to find an even more beautiful map about Italy. Unfortunately the quality of the picture is not as good. I'll try to post the links here (I don't know if I'm formatting them right, sorry, I'm very bad with these technical things):
-- (talk) 17:04, 2 February 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

From the text at the top, those are Historical regions of Italy (Technically 'regione storiche e culturali', "historical and cultural regions"). Not really an analogue to the French map; which has a physical geography component to it. The equivalent in France would be the Provinces of France, which were historical regions. --Jayron32 17:14, 2 February 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Take a look at:
The natural / historical dualism is quite intrinsic in this kind of topic. As a European myself I guess most if not all European countries have this sort of cultural/geographical/historical/natural/traditional areas, often not identical to official administrative subdivisions. I'm not so sure about other parts of the globe. -- (talk) 17:38, 2 February 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

The High Tide on the Coast of Lincolnshire 1571[edit]

In Rudyard Kipling's short story 'My Son's Wife', first published in 1917 in the collection A Diversity of Creatures, the character Miss Sperrit repeatedly sings bits of the Jean Ingelow poem 'The High Tide on the Coast of Lincolnshire 1571'. What tune would she have sung them to? Thank you, DuncanHill (talk) 17:01, 2 February 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

The best I could do is The Milking Song from the Ballad, "The High Tide on the Coast of Lincolnshire, 1571" (1897), music by James Jobling. If he was famous once, he ain't now. Alansplodge (talk) 22:04, 2 February 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I think that may well be it, the Milking Song is the "cusha, cusha, cusha" bit, which fits with what Miss Sperrit sings. DuncanHill (talk) 01:59, 3 February 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
There is a reference within the story to "High Tide on the Coast of Lincolnshire" being 'the winter cantata', which I read as an annual community performance which in this particular year was a setting of Ingelow's poem. That would imply a more substantial arrangement than Jobling's part song, unless the song is an extract of a larger work. -- Verbarson  talkedits 17:32, 3 February 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Another bash at Google found settings of "High Tide on the Coast" by Humphrey Procter-Gregg here and Eric Thiman here, but both must be too late for Kipling, the latter one is dated 1959. Alansplodge (talk) 19:35, 3 February 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
A tantalising mention in Edward Elgar: A Creative Life by Jerrold Northrop Moore (p. 355}
But Edward had promised , a year earlier , to write a cantata for the Norwich Festival of 1902: he had earmarked his old project of setting Jean Ingelow's 'The High Tide on the Coast of Lincolnshire' , and it was time to begin thinking seriously about it.
Alansplodge (talk) 19:42, 3 February 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Does anyone know Fukutaro Terauchi?[edit]

We recently bought a painting from him but we don't know anything about him. We can't find anything much from the internet as well. We know that he was born in December 4, 1891 and he graduated from a private school of Kiyoteru (Think I spelled it right). If possible can someone who knows about him tell me who he is and the avreage painting worth. Thank You. Can Özgören (talk) 20:58, 2 February 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

I put his name into eBay and it returned six listings of paintings going for a few hundred to a few thousand dollars (I'm in Canada so those figures are in Canadian dollars). Those are ongoing, though; the actual final price would be different, but it'll probably give you a general idea. Matt Deres (talk) 21:21, 2 February 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Kiyoteru is the name used by the painter Kuroda Seiki, being a kun'yomi reading of his given name 清輝. Fukutaro Terauchi is not mentioned on the Japanese Wikipedia (name in Japanese: 福太郎寺内). An artist with the same surname is Manjirō Terauchi, who does have an article on the Japanese Wikipedia. Some of the paintings attributed to the latter (in a Google image search) are so similar to those by Fukutaro-san, that I suspect misattribution.  --Lambiam 11:18, 3 February 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Subject of caricature[edit]

Regina Vicarino (caricature).jpg

Given the keys in this caricature of operatic soprano Regina Vicarino, would it be safe to assume that the man here is intended to be seen as a Pope? or could this be just a Cardinal? Not much context: it was just a picture illustrating a rather general article about her in a 1915 Seattle magazine. - Jmabel | Talk 21:47, 2 February 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Doesn't bear much resemblance to the incumbent at that time, Pope Benedict XV. Alansplodge (talk) 22:07, 2 February 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Not a rather pointless pun? To my uncultured eyes "Vicarino" looks like Italian for "little Pope" Doug butler (talk) 22:42, 2 February 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
@Doug butler: good thought.
@Alansplodge: I wouldn't have imagined it was Benedict XV. I was thinking it might relate to some role she played. - Jmabel | Talk 23:43, 2 February 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I'm guessing it is a specific role as well. I tried reading the article where the pic comes from at the file but my fading eyesight didn't see any specific operas or roles getting a mention. Maybe someone with better vision will find what I missed. It looks a bit a like something Aubrey Beardsley would create but a search of his works came up zero so it might be better to say that it is done in his style. Operas involving the Church might be a place to search next. MarnetteD|Talk 01:48, 3 February 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
@MarnetteD: Under the picture there is a list of resolutions. If you go to the biggest you get a link to 3694 × 5096 pixels. I don't find any mention of specific roles, either.
Would Vicarino mean jsut "little vicar"?
--Error (talk) 10:23, 3 February 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Our article Vicar writes: "The Pope uses the title Vicarius Christi, meaning the vicar of Christ." But even if the artist knew Italian and was aware of the Italian suffix -ino, the general American public is not. So it is IMO unlikely the artist meant to create a lame Italian pun based on her surname.  --Lambiam 11:58, 3 February 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
The papal keys of the kingdom of heaven (Matth. 16:19) are represented in the traditional iconography as a pair, as seen e.g. in the coat of arms of the Holy See. The large number of keys in the caricature (I count six), which appear to be suspended from a rosary, makes an allusion to a pope somewhat less likely. The chair is likely also an allusion, but bears no resemblance to the Chair of Saint Peter.  --Lambiam 12:19, 3 February 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • I suspect the caricature is based on one of her roles; Regina Vicarino is obviously the woman, and she's holding a cleric in her hand; perhaps this is meant to represent Raimondo from Lucia di Lammermoor, which is noted as an opera she was well known for performing in. It could also be another role she played not mentioned in her article. --Jayron32 18:31, 3 February 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

February 3[edit]

L'enfant et les sortilèges[edit]

In the section of L'enfant et les sortilèges by Ravel, the section entitled "How's your mug?" - The Teapot is in English. Well in some ways. The language used is inchoehernt and barely makes sense.

For instance take the interaction

"How's your mug?" "Rotton" "Better had" "Come on"

I don't particularly understand why this part contains English - maybe it made more sense in the context of opera at the time? As Anton ego remarked, I would like some perspective please! 2600:1700:3D74:F010:4C2E:E649:8D72:EC31 (talk) 04:40, 3 February 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Not a full answer but likely to be of interest: Ravel collaborated with the writer Colette and we have a 1919 letter from him to her:[1]

Another thing: what would you think of the cup and the teapot, in old Wedgwood – black – singing a ragtime? I confess that the idea of having a ragtime sung by two Negroes at the Académie Nationale de Musique fills me with delight. You’ll observe that the form – a single couplet, with refrain – is perfectly suited to the action in this scene: reproaches, recriminations, fury, pursuit. Perhaps you will object that you don’t usually write Negro slang. I, who know not a word of English, would do the same as you – I’d wangle it somehow [je me débrouillerais].

Colette encouraged him to go for it. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 04:50, 3 February 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Presumably the final words were chosen by Colette, since they're in her libretto. According to Arbie Orenstein, the black Wedgwood cup was changed to a china teacup, and he describes the result as "one of the most curious scenes in the operatic repertoire". Per Orenstein:[2]

The libretto calls for English, French, and pseudo-Chinese nonsense, which are set to a ragtime, complete with piano, sliding trombone, xylophone, celesta, wood block, and a cheese grater.

Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 04:58, 3 February 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Robert Orledge might have a more explicit answer to your question. He credits the unique scene to Ravel's general embrace of foreign musical traditions and his specific interest in jazz, a recent import to France swept in by WWI.[3]
Looks like I was probably wrong about the ragtime's authorship. Per Orenstein, now in his own book, the ragtime lyrics were an insertion of Ravel's. Orenstein has access to Colette's version of the scene, published in a book I can't access called Ravel et nous, by Hélène Jourdan-Morhange.[4] May explain the broken English; I don't know that Colette knew any English either, though she did have an affair with an American. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 05:42, 3 February 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]


  1. ^ Kilpatrick, E. (2015). Making operas. In The Operas of Maurice Ravel (Music in Context, pp. 1-52). Cambridge: Cambridge University Press.
  2. ^ Ravel, Maurice; Orenstein, Arbie (2003). A Ravel Reader: Correspondence, Articles, Interviews. Courier Corporation. ISBN 978-0-486-43078-2.
  3. ^ Orledge, Robert (2000). "Evocations of exoticism". In Mawer, Deborah (ed.). The Cambridge Companion to Ravel. Cambridge University Press. pp. 42–43. ISBN 978-0-521-64026-8.
  4. ^ Orenstein, Arbie (1991). Ravel: Man and Musician. New York: Dover Publications. p. 193. ISBN 978-0-486-26633-6.

Coronation service[edit]

banned user
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

I have the last three pages (pp 37-39) of the Coronation service of 1953. It appears to have been divided into seventeen parts, of which I have parts XVI and XVII and the latter part of part XV. XVII is the Recess, during which "everyone present sings the National Anthem" (Harry and Meghan please note). XVI is the Te Deum from Morning Prayer. My copy begins with the blessing of the Duke of Edinburgh, who having just paid homage to Her Majesty "returns to his faldstool". Then comes the Communion Service, opening with the prayer for the church militant and inserted therein before the dismissal is a prayer beginning "Prevent us, O Lord" - this may well have been said since before the Reformation since it now remains only in the "Thanksgiving after Mass." My question is - judging by the numbering this was only the last forty minutes or so of a three-hour service - what went before?

Changes to the wording of the service should be made with caution - we don't want a rerun of ChatGPT's update of the Bible (reproduced in the Daily Mail of 15 December):

And lo it came to pass that a man had a peanut butter sandwich stuck in his VCR. And he didst [sic] despair, for he knew not how to remove it. But then the Lord spoke unto him, saying: 'Verily, I say unto thee, use thy fingers to gently pry the sandwich from the VCR. And fear not, for I am with thee always, even in thy hour of need.' And the man did as the Lord commanded, and the sandwich was removed from the VCR. And the man was filled with gratitude, and he praised the Lord for his wisdom and guidance. Amen.

It all seems to be here. --Antiquary (talk) 11:57, 3 February 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]