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Template:Todo3

Welcome template and discussion template proposal

I designed a couple of templates that we may be able to put to use. First off is a welcome template.

Wikipedia:WikiProject Aircraft/welcome This template incorporates a proposed template for "Proposals and hot topics" which is


Current project proposals, hot discussions and other news

Wikipedia:WikiProject Aircraft/proposals Any ideas, suggestions, recommendations?-- Chrislk02 (Chris Kreider) 17:00, 28 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

A few things: the welcome template should probably have links to all our major subpages (the tabs at the top of WP:AIR), with a brief explanation of what they are and why they're important. Being obsessed with standardisation, may I also propose that your two templates be called {{Wikipedia:WikiProject Aircraft/Welcome}} and {{Wikipedia:WikiProject Aircraft/Major discussions}}? Karl Dickman talk 02:03, 31 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I have no problem renaming those templates! I will move them sometime this week. I also like the suggestions for enhancement and I will work on them too! Thanks for the feedback. -- Chrislk02 (Chris Kreider) 13:23, 3 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Done - Templates have been renamed per Karl Dickmans request. -- Chrislk02 (Chris Kreider) 20:06, 5 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I also added links to some of the important pages. Do you think we need links to all of them at the top? If so, I can add the, but I think it will clutter the welcome. Any feedback on the new additions? Any suggestions or does anybody think that it is ready for use?-- Chrislk02 (Chris Kreider) 20:13, 5 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I'll concede that the links could be considered redundant, since they are already present on the main page. In my experience, lists tend to look less cluttered when they're plain text and have no border/background. Preview it and see if you like it. Karl Dickman talk 02:47, 6 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
In an effort to follow my own recommendations, I have moved the location of the image, which hopefully makes the template look slightly better. Karl Dickman talk 22:06, 8 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I like the picture there. That was a good change. I thought the aircraft icon looked a little out of place, and where it is now looks great! -- Chrislk02 (Chris Kreider) 22:08, 8 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Need project members' help with an issue

There's a new article that's been created on a UAV, Dominator UAV. As I've been working on the UAV section for quite sometime, I tried moving this article to Aeronautics Dominator to conform it to Wikipedia:Naming conventions (aircraft), but the article's author, User:Headphonos insisted on moving it back, asking for a "vote" before moving. We don't have "B-52 Bomber" or "Mustang Fighter" or "Globemaster Cargoplane", so why should a UAV article be an exception? When I asked the author, his response was "Don't care, the issue is the name, which is correct as per many articles under the +cat, pls don't contact me any further on the matter." Most other UAV aricles conform to the standard naming convention, and I didn't see the need for a "vote" to comply with guidelines, but since that's what he wants, I'll go that route. So, folks, rename to Aeronautics Defender, or leave alone? Feel free to reply here or at Talk:Dominator UAV Akradecki 15:58, 4 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

He's wrong per our own naming standards. —Joseph/N328KF (Talk) 18:58, 4 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Just a note to those not following the discussion, I have re-directed Dominator UAV to the Dominator (disambiguation) pages as there is more than one Dominator UAV. A confusion that was also in the original article mixing information between the Israeli Aeronautics Defense Dominator and the American Boeing Dominator UAVs.MilborneOne 11:57, 5 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I have gotten involved in this situation as an administrator. If headphonos keeps being disruptive over the issue, please let me know and I will handle the situation appropriatley! I agree with the renaming, as it complies with project standards. -- Chrislk02 (Chris Kreider) 13:24, 5 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I also left a note explaning it a litte more in depth on headphonos userpage. -- Chrislk02 (Chris Kreider) 13:34, 5 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I've left notes on some individual's pages, but I wanted also publicly thank the project for your response on the note above...it's working together like this that has made Project Aircraft one of the best on WP. Akradecki 14:57, 5 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Zeppelin FAR

Zeppelin has been nominated for a featured article review. Articles are typically reviewed for two weeks. Please leave your comments and help us to return the article to featured quality. If concerns are not addressed during the review period, articles are moved onto the Featured Article Removal Candidates list for a further period, where editors may declare "Keep" or "Remove" the article from featured status. The instructions for the review process are here. Reviewers' concerns are here. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:01, 4 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

King Air split proposal

After an exchange on the talk pages of User:BillCJ and myself regarding the length of the Beechcraft King Air article, we've come up with a proposal to split it into two articles. I've added a split tag and copied the discussion to Talk:Beechcraft King Air. If anyone else is interested, comments on the proposal are invited. Akradecki 00:50, 8 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Announcement

The final article in the list of aircraft belonging to the Finnish Air Force was created today! --MoRsE 20:36, 8 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

When to Use Aero specs tags

When exactly is a good time to use the aero specs tag. Also when do you remove them. Can you do this with AWB? RED skunkTALK 00:40, 9 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Bolton-Paul Defiant and Boulton Paul Defiant

Since this page, Bolton-Paul Defiant, is duplicated in the much more authoritive and complete article (BTW with the actual aircraft and manufacturer spelled correctly), Boulton Paul Defiant, I recommend this page be deleted. Bzuk 18:14 10 February 2007 (UTC).

I would have thought that you could delete it without consensus as the company name is not correct Bolton/Boulton.MilborneOne 19:26, 10 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I've never deleted an article- how is it done? Bzuk 19:36, 10 February 2007 (UTC).[reply]
Just redirect it to the good article as I just did with this rather short, non-noticeable article. --Denniss 20:06, 10 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Need for members' help with Gloster Meteor, Messerschmitt Me 262 and de Havilland Comet articles

I need some help here. One editor has constantly (12 times under his user name, perhaps many others with an IP address only, since 30 January 2007) reverted the introductory paragraph to read that the Gloster Meteor was the first operational jet fighter. Now there may be compelling arguments for this claim, however, this editor has taken to using the article and the Me 262 article as the forum for his argument rather than taking it to the discussion pages. Since there is no consensus from other editors, I believe that the most effective path would be to have bonafide sources and provide them in the discussion page. From a cursory observation of the same editor's modus operandi, he has also been involved in a similar dispute on the de Havilland Comet article where again he has championed a very nationalist viewpoint which has been characterized as "POV." What can be done? Is there a way to block his constant reversions? Bzuk 22:36, 10 February 2007 (UTC).[reply]

Well, one could perhaps refer to an offense against the WP:3RR rule and report him/her to Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/3RR. Is it User:Michael Shrimpton that you are referring to? MoRsE 23:32, 10 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, as a matter of fact, it is. Bzuk23:33, 10 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
It all looks a bit arguable, the German and British jets had considerable overlap in their introduction period into service. You need to stick to only what can be cited, POV isn't wrong provided it's somebody else's. Using a technical policy infringement to what may amount to or be perceived as enforcing your own POV isn't likely to do anyone any favours.WolfKeeper 23:55, 10 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Good point, if you check the history of this argument, substantial references and citations have been provided on both sides, but the discussion page was only at times the forum for the back-and-forth, which is the key reason for my commentary. I stressed on the discussion page and with the editor that was posting that if there was a questionable point raised that it should first go to the discussion page and get worked out there. Instead, there has been wholesale "chopping and dicing" going on. I do not have an abiding interest in what argument prevails but there is a lack of decorum that is being instilled. Bzuk 23:34, 10 February 2007 (UTC).[reply]
Now he's at work on the de Havilland Comet site, changing and reverting areas to suit what he considers his own research. There has to be a method to challenge these constant reversions. Bzuk 23:34, 11 February 2007 (UTC).[reply]
I say we report him to the 3RR Admins. I've been watching and it's been getting out of hand. Redskunk 00:16, 13 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Our friend finally made a major slip- he reverted three "good-faith edits" on the Messerschmitt Me 262 in a 24-hour period, you can now nominate him to be blocked. I would encourage you to do exactly that. Bzuk 20:27, 13 February 2007 (UTC).[reply]

I have blocked User:Michael Shrimpton for 24 hours for violating the 3RR, and have outlined my position on his talk page. As I have stated there, I am offering the following advice: for those involved in this dispute, try not to make significant edits to the Messerschmitt Me 262, De Havilland Comet, or Gloster Meteor articles. Stick to minor edits, and include with each edit a reference for the information you are changing or adding. One of the most important policies of Wikipedia is Wikipedia:Verifiability, which states "The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth. "Verifiable" in this context means that any reader should be able to check that material added to Wikipedia has already been published by a reliable source."

I think that everyone involved needs to take a step back from these articles for a moment, take a deep breath, and make sure that what they are doing is correct. Do not continue to revert each others edits or further action will be required. - Trevor MacInnis (Contribs) 03:19, 14 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Why not simply state that because of overlap in their introductions, it is difficult to tell which came into service first? Seeing as how there is evidence supporting both statements this is probably the best compromise. LWF 03:25, 14 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Absolutely agree! As I had indicated before, I have no abiding interest in which aircraft is/was "first." I can even live with the statement that the such-and-such airplane was the first fighter and toss the whole "which was operational qualification" out entirely. That wasn't so much an issue as the lack of process or discussion that degenerated rapidly into an edit war. My reversions back to the original, referenced and cited text did acerbate the situation, and that's why I sought help. Thanks to everyone for their advice. Bzuk 5:49 14 February 2007 (UTC).
Despite the 24-hour block, the aforementioned editor is again at work on the [de Havilland Comet]] article, revising it with an unsubstantiated and subjective perspective. Sigh... Bzuk 15:49 15 February 2007 (UTC).

Better Quality scale.

I've just copied over the quality scale from the Military History Project. I think it makes things more clear as to where to put each article. For military aircraft, when it comes to B and A class ratings, I suggest deferring to them. They have a good system in place to rate articles B or A, and I suggest starting a similar system for reviewing non-military aircraft pages. - Trevor MacInnis (Contribs) 16:56, 14 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Spec tables

There appears to be a low-grade revert war beginning on several airliner pages (notably Airbus A330 and Boeing 707) over the use of Spec tables vs. the Specs template. While I totally understand the need for consistency within the project, I believe we need to develop a consesnus on whether or not airliners should be exempt from the Sero-specs template.

Airliners are differ from the other aircraft, especially military ones, in several ways that make using a specs table more efficient. Airliners almost always have more than one or two models to compare, which a table is good at presenting for comparison. I can't see using six or eight {{aero-specs}} in order to present each major model covered on the page. A table just makes more sense in these siturations. In addition, airliners don't have as much information that needs to be presented as military aircraft, especially weapons. Also, tables make comparisions between the major models easier, as all the data is there on the same lines.

Now, there are several different styles of comparison tables being used on the various airliner pages. To me, some of the ones on the Boeing pages seem to be the best in terms of look and presentation format. If nothing else, I'd like to see the project develop/approve a standard table for use on the airliner pages, so at least the look is consistent across those pages. - BillCJ 00:00, 16 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Can you mention the top 3 or 4 tables from the Boeing pages that you're referring to, so we can focus on those? Akradecki 00:49, 16 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I like the look of the 747/777/787 in general, but I also like the fact that the left column in the 767 is bolded. I'd be nice to combine them. Is there a way to make it a template so that the average user can add them, or is this one of those things that no matter how it's set up, you're gonna have to be an expert to be able to implement it? Akradecki 05:40, 16 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I agree that the 747/777/787 and 767 combo would look best. I had the 737 in mind, but the 747/777/787 type looks like a slightly better version of the 737's. As to how to set it up, I'll leave that to the experts. - BillCJ 06:23, 16 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Requested semi-protection

Not sure that the article will meet the criteria, but I requested semi-protection for the Helicopter article due to a recent increase in vandalism. The last 4-5 days has seen at least one incident per day (by my count, but I'm tired). --Born2flie 02:59, 16 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Out of interest I had a look at Helicopter and found a link to Military helicopters. The summary is that military helicopters are helicopters operated by the military, with very little other substance other then pictures of US helicopters. Do we really need this article - do we have one on Civil helicopters ! Comments from team welcomed.MilborneOne 22:27, 16 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Seaplane = "Water Aircraft" ?

Someone who I'm fairly certain is not a participant here recently page-moved seaplane to Water Aircraft. I sort of doubt this move would have any support, so I un-did it, but I'd like some commentary on it (preferably on the seaplane Talk page) from other project participants.--chris.lawson 03:15, 16 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I just finished going through and doing some cleanup work on that after the move back, but it probably would be a good idea of someone (or two or three) went over it again. Also, I see that the responsible editor acknowledged (on his talk page) that he won't be doing that again. Akradecki 03:29, 16 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Flags

Noticed a few creeping in during the last few days in military operators paragraph (but strangely not in civil operators) (for example Blackburn Buccaneer). I though we decided they were naf and added no value! can somebody please remind me what the project policy is. MilborneOne 22:16, 16 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

...but they look so pretty. Sorry, most of them have been from me; didn't know the policy. Bzuk 23:27 16 February 2007 (UTC).
Guideline or concensus, not policy. --Born2flie 01:27, 17 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
To my knowledge, the previous discussion centered on the use of flags in the Aircraft Infobox only. I seem to remember it being accepted as OK to have them in the main text under operators. THe primary objection in the Infobox was that the flags take up limited space; the main text does not have that problem. I did not really care for the flags in the text at first, primarily because of all the coding, but now that they are using the little flag templates, they aren't that much trouble to deal with. And as Bill (Bzuk) said, they are pretty! So I am for keeping them in the text, but definitely not in the Infobox. - BillCJ 01:53, 17 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
This question has triggered something that's been in the back of my mind for a while...the project needs a FAQ section so that when items like this are discussed, and consensus is reached, we can record it there so that we don't have to dig through pages and pages of archived talk. Akradecki 17:53, 17 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Great idea! I've created a link to this yet to be created page in the page tabs, so people can begin adding previous questions and concise answers there now.- Trevor MacInnis (Contribs) 19:05, 17 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
PS. The new page is at Wikipedia:WikiProject Aircraft/FAQ - Trevor MacInnis (Contribs) 19:10, 17 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I agree. There needs to be a way to capture project-unique consensus guidelines where they can easily be found. We especially need to make it easy for new editors to find. Askari Mark (Talk) 19:32, 17 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the replies - so flags are a no no in infoboxes but OK in military operators. Perhaps we should be consistent and make the civil operators the same, that is list by country then operator. Support the FAQ idea - stop me asking daft questions ! MilborneOne 21:08, 17 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Our own welcome template?

One of the things I try to do is drop a {{Welcome}} template on the talk pages of new users that I come across, and I've realized that articles within the scope of our project attracts its share of new users, many of whom would probably be interested in joining the project, if they knew about it. To that end, I have created a project-based welcome template, {{AircraftWelcome}}. I'd like to invite project input on this...both in terms of its usefulness and its wording. Akradecki 17:51, 17 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

A great idea, Akradecki! My only suggestion would be to boldface the user's name (i.e., the {{BASEPAGENAME}} part) to make it stand out in the welcome. Askari Mark (Talk) 18:31, 17 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Good idea...done! Akradecki 00:20, 18 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I also designed one earlier.

Whta do you think about it? There is a thread farther up that explains how it works. -- Chrislk02 (Chris Kreider) 20:05, 18 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Chris, looks good! I assume that the intent is to use it to welcome people who've signed up for the Project? Mine was for people new to Wikipedia to get them to come check out the project. Maybe there's a way to get the two to look similar, so that if the newbies come join the project, they get the second one welcoming them onto the team? Akradecki 22:55, 18 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
My mistake, i see the difference! I like yours, i was thinking of one like that too. I run into editors at several different aircraft related articles and think they might not know about WP:AIRCRAFT. I like yours! It looks good. However, what if the editr has already been welvomed to wikipedia? I think it should be a little more specific of an invite to the project, and project policies and guidelines etc (and less related to wikipedia in specific.). -- Chrislk02 (Chris Kreider) 23:04, 18 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Maybe we should come up with an invitation-oriented one? I was also musing the situation with the IPs that edit...maybe combine an invitation to register with an invitation to the Project?Akradecki 23:08, 18 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
That makes alot of sense (about the IP's). I like it! I dont have alot of time now to work on it but this week i will put some more effort into developing a series of welcomes/invitations! -- Chrislk02 (Chris Kreider) 23:27, 18 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Task force proposal

Akradecki recommended that I present this to the Project. So, without further ado, I would like to propose a Rotorcraft task force with the following Goals and Scope:

Goals
  • To improve the quality of Rotorcraft articles
  • To represent the interests of Rotorcraft within the WikiProject Aircraft.
Scope

Articles dealing with any of the following topics:

  • Rotorcraft (Helicopters, Autogyros, Gyrodynes, etc.)
  • Subjects relating to the function and operation and nature of rotorcraft.

I guess the reason is that there are many of us with different interests within the scope of the Project, and mine happens to be Rotorcraft in general and helicopters specifically. The task force would work to apply the WP:AIR guidelines to the rotorcraft articles and continue to work with the concensus found within WP:AIR. There are many key articles that need improvement and it will be the immediate goal to improve those articles to at A-Class and hopefully GA- or FA-class. For the task force proposal, see User:Born2flie/Rotorcraft task force. --Born2flie 20:35, 17 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Implemented and moved to Wikipedia:WikiProject Aircraft/Rotorcraft task force —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Trevor MacInnis (talk • contribs) 19:24, 20 February 2007 (UTC).[reply]

Help requested

I just discovered the IAMI Shafaq article this weekend. It is in dire need of attention, though probably of low importance. I moved it from Shafaq to its original page name, and have made some minor changes. Anyone who can, please take a look and see what you can do. Even if everyone just makes one or two changes, taken together, it will help alot. Thanks. - BillCJ 02:24, 19 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]


Air data

(Entry moved to the "airspeed" discussion page WhatIsTrue 13:30, 26 February 2007 (UTC) )[reply]

Images

There are many images on wikipedia related to aircraft. Do you think it would be appropriate to add a clas to your project template for images and tag images as such? That way, we could have a good idea of what images are associated with the project etc etc. We could also add a section to the project for featured pictures related to the project such as [todays picture of the day] or other high caliber pictures. -- Chrislk02 (Chris Kreider) 19:09, 20 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Interesting idea, and I'm not sure if any other projects are doing this yet. I'll take a look around and see what's what. - Trevor MacInnis (Contribs) 19:23, 20 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I also am not aware of any. I gladly tag them fo rother projects and am involved in many others. Another thing I was thinking about regarding to this project is I would like to see every article on an aircraft have at least one appropriate picture. I think pictures add so much more value to an article than almost anything else we could include. Any others have ideas on this goal? -- Chrislk02 (Chris Kreider) 19:27, 20 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I've updated the project template so that if you add it to a page that is not an article, just enter NA for the class and it will automatically put it in the relevant subcategory of Category:Non-article aircraft pages. See Image talk:F-15 vertical deploy.jpg for what I mean. As for the adding pictures to every article, I certainly agree, but am not sure how to go about promoting this. - Trevor MacInnis (Contribs) 20:06, 20 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
The NA function has always been available. I have used it for numerous templates etc etc. I guess what I was proposing is either a.) a project image template or b.) a permutation of the template to allow pictures and an appropriate ciategory for pictures to be included in the images. On the pictures issues, I would love for some other project members to weigh in on this one, what is the best way to promote it? Maybye start by figuring out how many articles do and how many articles dont have images? Just an idea. -- Chrislk02 (Chris Kreider) 20:28, 20 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I assume you're talking about images that are on En:Wikipedia? How would this work for images at Commons? It's my understanding that it is preferred that images be uploaded over there rather than here so they can be used in other language WPs. As for an image for each article, I heartily agree, and have been shooting even the most mundane aircraft (can't get more mundane than Citation CJ!) whenever I see one that's needed. Akradecki 23:13, 20 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I forgot about the commons, that is a good point. Guess that wont work. However, would creating a maintenace cateogyr, "airraft articles without pictures" be helpful in a goal of making sure very article has an appropriate picture? If I have not stated that yet, I think that would be an excellent goal for this project. -- Chrislk02 (Chris Kreider) 00:03, 21 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I would indeed find that helpful, because that would give me, and presumably other editor/photographers a target list. Akradecki 00:23, 21 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Template:WP India uses image-needed=yes to put these type of articles in Category:India articles needing images. And Template:TrainsWikiProject uses Imageneeded=yes and Imagedetails= to describe specifically what type of image. Something like this could easily be added to our template as well. - Trevor MacInnis (Contribs) 00:40, 21 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
That sounds like a great idea! Who does our template maintenance generally? -- Chrislk02 (Chris Kreider) 00:42, 21 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Anyone really, but for this type of thing I have some experience. I'll add the options in now. Trevor MacInnis (Contribs) 00:50, 21 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

←Thanks! Can it be set up so untagged have "unknown image status". ones with yes be in a catregory "aircraft articles with images"., ones missing them with "aircraft articles requiring pictres". Of course, the cats can be named appropriatly, just a suggestion though. thanks. -- Chrislk02 (Chris Kreider) 00:57, 21 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Done. Articles can now be tagged: see the new instructions at Template:AircraftProject. An example I've already done is Talk:Avro Jetliner. It will add the article to Category:Aircraft articles needing images, which, to also get help from outside the project, is listed at Category:Wikipedia requested images and Category:Wikipedia requested photographs by subject. - Trevor MacInnis (Contribs) 01:09, 21 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Proposal to rename Category:Cessna to Category:Cessna aircraft

(Found this over at Talk:Cessna, thought it would be of interest here Akradecki 23:09, 20 February 2007 (UTC)) This proposed change would bring the category in line with other categories in Wikiproject:Aircraft such as Category:Piper aircraft, Category:Grumman aircraft, etc.[reply]

WP:Aviation

I've gone ahead and created the project. Lets move this conversation there. - Trevor MacInnis (Contribs) 02:51, 24 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Major proposal: WP Aviation

A funny idea has been floating around in my head lately. Wikipedia has no Wikipedia:WikiProject Aviation. A lot of the stuff this project takes care of (such as Federal Aviation Administration, and Douglas Aircraft Company) don't follow our stated page content guidlelines, and would be better served under that project, if it existed. If that project was created, the Aircraft Project would naturally seem to be a sub-project of it. The best way to have interaction between a sub-project and a parent project is, I think, have the sub-project become a "task force". Since we now have a "Rotocraft task force", a "Fixed-wing task force". That would free up editors involved in airplanes to focus on airplane articles. I'm not suggesting destoying this project, but what if this project was renamed "WikiProject Aviation", and any project work specifically aimed at fixed wing aircraft was moved to Wikipedia:WikiProject Aviation/Fixed-wing task force. Crazy idea, I know, and would involve a lot of work moving pages and reorganizing content, but an idea none the less. Comments? *flinch from expected attack* Trevor MacInnis (Contribs) 01:31, 21 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

That certainly is an interesting idea. Under the "Related Wikiprojects" there are several that would naturally fit as sub-projects under an Aviation umbrella. Maybe some feelers over on those talk pages might be an idea, too. Of all the wikiprojects I've seen, AIR is by far the best organized and has the most extensive resources (a subtle tip 'o the hat to all those involved in making it so!), so we have a lot to offer other related projects that might "come under our wing" if this were to happen. Akradecki 01:57, 21 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I have suggested we start a wiki[roject aviation before, move aircraft, airports, under it. I think it would be a great idea! -- Chrislk02 (Chris Kreider) 01:57, 21 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
If nobody draws it up, i would not mind drawing up a proposal to create wp:aviation, and how each part would fit into it and then get feedback on the proposal. I really like this idea. -- Chrislk02 (Chris Kreider) 02:07, 21 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Trevor, I like your outspokenness! I disagree that WP:Aircraft needs to be renamed as WP:Aviation, I do, however, agree that a WP:Aviation would benefit the entire Aviation portion of the encyclopedia. I would say that WP:Aviation could be the parent for WP:Aircraft and WP:Airport and WP:Airline or even WP:Air-anything. I'd be perfectly content, however, to continue to participate as a member of a task force that belongs to WP:Aircraft. The only question is what would WP:Aviation's goals and scope be, and would it attempt to ecplipse any current project's goals and scope? --Born2flie 02:12, 21 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Pardon me for jumping in the middle here, but I wanted to respond directly to the questions above. I believe one of the primary goals is to bring the complex and well-thought-out infrastructure that we have to the other areas of aviation on the encyclopedia. As I've stated before, I believe that Aircraft is probably one of the best set-up projects around. The result is a comprehensive set of standards and guidelines, and a dedicated group of editors who make these guidelines stick, even when the going gets tough. What we need to do is to clone our project up one level, so that the comprehensive guidelines are consistent throughout all aviation articles. Right now, the subject is quite fragmented by the various projects. For instance, I've done editing in aircraft crash articles, and some are covered under the Airline project, some are left floating out there with no one except WikiProject Disaster management covering them (if this gets going, I can even see the place for an "Aviation Safety Task Force" to cover accident articles). One of the hallmarks of a world-class encyclopedia is seamless consistency, which is probably the most important thing we can bring to the table. Akradecki 04:36, 21 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Isn't that an oxymoron, an Aviation Safety task force covering articles about accidents? I'd prefer Aircraft Accident task force, something that doesn't tie "safety" to crashing, especially since very little in those articles about crashes meets the intent of what an accident investigation is really for.
Anyways, I think we're puffing WP:Aircraft into something more than what it is, a project that covers the articles about aircraft. Aviation is as much about the infrastructure as the aircraft that operate within that infrastructure, and we don't have a corner on the market of good ideas. Aircraft are popular, but dictating to the few people who do write about the other aspects of aviation has a risk of ostracizing or even chasing off editors who are working to improve the encyclopedia just as we are, and in areas we really don't care about (if we did, we'd be writing in those areas). If we were going to adapt to their guidelines and standards for their subjects, that would be fine, but I wouldn't want to start making all of Aviation look like Aircraft simply because we have numbers and we're organized and we like what we come up with. If we take it that far, you can mark my words that the project will mostly be fighting everybody just to maintain guidelines and accomplishing very little.
Also, keep in mind, that you're talking about expanding the scope well beyond WP:AIR's scope and when you do that, you will dilute the organization and strength that you are counting on right now. It would be more beneficial to gain concensus within each of the projects to have their say in what WP:Aviation will be and then to work within all the groups to achieve common guidelines or whatever you think the goal of WP:Aviation should be.
My $.02. YMMV. --Born2flie 05:57, 21 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Some excellent points. With the "safety" thing, I was hoping in the back of my mind that maybe, since this is an encyclopedia, accident articles could be nudged to be more than just a news story of aluminum hitting rock, and relate what was learned from it, how things in the industry were changed by it, etc. Just a pipe dream. I do hear you about the danger of ostracizing others. You mentined adapting to their guidelines in their areas, I guess what I was getting at is that in a lot of areas, both covered by another project and orphaned areas, there's a distinct lack of guidelines and organization. I don't mean any disrepect to the other projects (I belong to a couple of them, too), but there is a lot of room for growth there, and we already have the standards set up. I was envisioning it more of us offering the infrastructure to them rather than marching in and taking over.Akradecki 14:41, 21 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I was thinking something like wikiproject military history is set up, with the task forces. There is alot of stuff, related to aviation, that falls outside of aircraft and airports project currently that are getting stretched to fit in it. -- Chrislk02 (Chris Kreider) 02:14, 21 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
If you look at the Portal:Transport/WikiProjects template on the Portal:Transport page, you will see that Aviation is the only black link on the list. So creating this would bring Aviation in line with all the other projects on the portal. I just created Wikipedia:WikiProject Gliding and it would fit in under Aviation as a sister project to Aircraft. Dhaluza 02:40, 21 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
That might actually be a good way to start, but in the end I think we'd want Aviation out from under Transport as its own parent project. All the other sub-projects under transport are much narrower in scope, with several focusing on narrower aspects of ground transportation.
TO begin with, we might start an Aviation Task Force to put together the proposals, and to give a place to begin organizing the various orphaned articles. We also ought to coordinate with the Airlines and Airports projects, and get their participation on putting the parent group together. To be honest, Gliding should really be a Task force under another project, one that might include aother aspects of aviation-related sports and activities, such as airshows, private plane interests, etc. - BillCJ 03:29, 21 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
What, we're thinking all the other Aviation related projects will just become task forces? I don't find that realistic. --Born2flie 03:39, 21 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Aircraft, AIrports, and AIrlines would all be projects under a parent project, as they are now under Transport, but instead would be under Aviation. I just meant the Gliding would probably be better as a task force under another project, perhaps Aviation Recreation, which would cover similar topics not currently under a project, or now under various other non-aviation projects. - BillCJ 03:45, 21 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Bill, I guess it was really more a question to Chris in re: to his, "I was thinking something like wikiproject military history is set up, with the task forces." I mean, that's where I got the idea for Rotorcraft task force, but it blends. Aircraft and Rotorcraft, it was kind of like a no-brainer to cover a subgroup of the project without needing to be its own project. I can see Aviation as a parent group, but having it come out from under Transport? I don't see that. It still fits and belongs, especially the way the encyclopedia is constructed right now; Aviation is a form of Transportation. Once again, I'm devil's advocate because I am not against WP:Aviation. --Born2flie 03:53, 21 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I may have misunderstood the origianl proposal to mean coming out from under Transport. I do see the whole topic of Aviation as being much more than just a sub-set of Transportation. I can see reasons for doing so, but I was only advocating for what I though was being proposed. It does not bother me either way which way we go. As pointed out above, WP:AIR is under the Aviation topic under Transport, so it makes sense to just make it the parent of AP:AIR under the Transport "grandparent" project. WOrks for me. - BillCJ 04:27, 21 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I created WikiProject Gliding primarily to bring people from the Gliding community into the WP community, so I would prefer it remains a separate project with it's own identity. Gliding is a sport organized internationally under the FAI Gliding Commission. The scope of the project includes gliders, which is a category of aircraft, but that is only one small part. The current project scope covers:

I do think we could have joint task forces to work on areas of overlap such as airports/gliderports and aircraft/gliders, as well as aviation in general. Dhaluza 23:47, 23 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Proposal outline

Here's my idea of how the various project should be organized. This is just one idea (my original was, by the way, to have just one project, Aviation, and anything sub that a task force), but I think its a good framework to work on:

Would fixed wing aircraft benefit from a task force, or is having WP:Air separate from WP:Aviation enough. Are there other areas of focus that would benefit from a task force? - Trevor MacInnis (Contribs) 14:04, 21 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I personally think breaking aircraft down into to many "task forces" is a bit far out there. I think they all fall under aircraft and breaking it down too far will just spread the project out to far. I dont know what it means above when Aviation is under transport. I think aviation should stand by itself though. Aviation is used to fight wars, so the argument could be made that it should be a subset of military history. (Although, I am not making that argument, it is just to show that I dont feel viation falls under transportation). -- Chrislk02 (Chris Kreider) 14:09, 21 February 2007 (UTC)`[reply]
I also think the scope of aviation should be expanded to include
  • Famous individuals in the world of aviation such as the wright brother, clyde cessna, or other famous aircraft desingers
  • aviation specific terminologies and such (there is actually a categtory for aviation terminology)
  • Any articles related to the history and or development of aviation.
I think that these are important (and hope that it is not a bad case of scope creep). -- Chrislk02 (Chris Kreider) 14:11, 21 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with you for the most part, especially on WP:Aviation not being part of WP:Transportation. But for now, your outline looks good to me. I see no problem starting out under tranportation for the time being, esp since WP:AIR is already there. We don't have to fight for our independence today! :)
As to a FIxed Wing task force, I think it works fine as it is. We can use the taks force for things which need special attention, such as Rotorcraft, as outlined by the originator of that idea, Born2Flie. ANother group which might benefit from a Task force might be Airliners. As the recent discussions on the Airliner specs have shown, they have their own unique requirements, and some editors spend most of their time in that sub-group anyway. Just a thought, but again, it doesn't have to be fought now. - BillCJ 16:24, 21 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
There is actually already a project for airliners. WP:AIRLINERS, not sure if you were aware of that. Has anybody posted to the other projects that are related ([WP:AIRPORTS]] and WP:AIRLINERS to see if they want in on this discusison? -- Chrislk02 (Chris Kreider) 16:56, 21 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I know there is a WP:Airlines, but the link you gave is red, and a quick search and parousal of some airliner talk pages turns up nothing. If they do exist, they aren't doing a very good job of advertising their existence, or on the airliner pages either! But yes, I agree we need to talk with the other projects on this. - BillCJ 17:09, 21 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
That was my bad, I was thinking of WP:AIRLINE, not airliners. oooooops. -- Chrislk02 (Chris Kreider) 17:33, 21 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I still think however that airliners beongs under aircraft. The argument can be made that there are many different models and verios with different specs and such but the same could be argued for regular aircraft. the differents might be more sublt but fo rexaple, there are many many verisons of the Cessna 172 )I am not aware of how they are all different). The same could be said about many other aircraft as well. -- Chrislk02 (Chris Kreider) 17:39, 21 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I'm sorry if I wasn't clear on my suggestion. Yes, Airliners should be under WP:Air, but just like Rotorcraft, they might benefit from a dedicated task force. But it's just a suggestion. - BillCJ 18:05, 21 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Oh! I gotcha now. yea, I would not be adverse to having a task force for that. So, what is a propsoed list of task forces? -- Chrislk02 (Chris Kreider) 18:09, 21 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
FWIW, I went and read through WP:Airline's project page. Other than major accidents and fleet listings, it seems that this project is more geared towards the airlines as companies rather than airliners as aircraft, so I don't think there would be conflict. That being said, the airline company aspect seems like it would naturally fit under the WP:Aviation umbrella as well. Akradecki 19:53, 21 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Proposed Task Forces

I would like to take this section to discuss which task forcese would seem appropriatl to have under a WP:AVITION, should it come into existence. I would like the outcome of this discussion to be included in the proposal/plans for creaton of a Wikiproject aviation. Listed below is what we have now. If you have one you would like to propose, add it to the list and creat a heading for it! Explain why you think it should be included. -- Chrislk02 (Chris Kreider) 18:09, 21 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Template:Opposed I don't believe that WP:Aviation should replace WP:AIR, so there should not be any aircraft related task forces under WP:Aviation, since they would all fall under WP:AIR. --Born2flie 21:44, 21 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Wikiproject Aviation - Proposed task forces
    • Airliners
    • Rotorcraft
    • Gliders (or Gliding)?
    • Fixed wing.

Airliners

Rotorcraft

Gliders or Gliding

Fixed Wing

I think that, since Airlines (note it's Airlines as in the companies, not Airliners as in the aircraft type) and Gliding already have their own projects they should remain such and not require a task force. As part of this edit, I've clarified my links in the project organization chart above. Also, I only consider WP:Aviation to be a sub-project of WP:Transportation in Wikipedia organization only. It will likely not have any overlap in members/rules/policies etc.- Trevor MacInnis (Contribs) 18:49, 21 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I am not aware of a gliding project? Do you have the link to it? -- Chrislk02 (Chris Kreider) 19:20, 21 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Wikipedia:WikiProject Gliding. - BillCJ 19:24, 21 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Isent gliding a subet of aircraft? Like rotorcraft? If rotorcraft were a task force (which I feel it should be), then i also feel that gliding should be as well. Would it be too much to create one for each group recognzied by teh faa (would that be to north americancentric). The ones I am refering to are fixed wing aircraft (the bulk of the porject as i am assuming), rotorcraft (should be a task force), gliders (should be a task force) and maybye lighter than air (another possible task force). DO you think the gilder project would be extremly adverse to being a task force/subset of the aircraft project? -- Chrislk02 (Chris Kreider) 19:27, 21 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
One of the users above mentioned that he had created the Gliding project. I think he did this on his own without consulting any other project. RIght now there are only 5 names on their participant list. THey may have a larger vision for their project in mind, but it wouldn't hurt to ask them if being on of our task forces might be better for them, in the short run anyway. - BillCJ 19:42, 21 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I will go ahead and do that. I guess i see gliders as a subset of aircraft like a caboose is a subset of a train. You wwouldent have a seperate wikiproiject cabooses (as far as I know) that made sense. It would make much more sense to have it in a hierarchical order. -- Chrislk02 (Chris Kreider) 19:49, 21 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Gliders are a category of aircraft, like airplanes/aeroplanes, rotorcraft, balloons, etc. But the Wikipedia:WikiProject Gliding has a much broader scope (see above). Dhaluza 23:53, 23 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I understand that, but right now you are a very small project. It might make sense to start out as a task force, or at least have a Glider task force under WP:Aircraft to handle gliders for you, but which is also a task force under the Gliding Project. Which ever way you decide to go is probably fine with us. We just didn't want to leave you out entirely of the discussion. the Aviation Project will have a broader scoope than WP:Aircraft, which will remain a project under Aviation. So having the Gliding Project under Aviation (not AIrcraft) is probably best for the scope you have in mind, with or without a Glider Task Force under WP:AIR. - BillCJ 00:34, 24 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Proposal Recap

Ok, so this is how I see the discussion heading so far:


Let's modify this list. Are there any topics missing? - Trevor MacInnis (Contribs) 00:33, 22 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I think its good. However in the future, i would not be adverse to adding a lighter than air task force under the aircraft project. -- Chrislk02 (Chris Kreider) 00:52, 22 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I've added in the Gliding Project under Aviation, and included the Joint Glider Task Force with WP:AIR. - BillCJ 00:52, 24 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I'd just like to confirm: the items under the scope of the gliding project refer to articles specifically related to gliding. The list seems to me to be a little too broad. For example, its written that airports fall under the scope of WikiProject Gliding, but I don't thing that that should be so. Airport articles are not considered to be part of the scope of WikiProject Aviation, even though airplanes need them to take-off and land. - Trevor MacInnis (Contribs) 02:07, 24 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
It's deliberately broad, and there is a lot of overlap not only within aviation, but also with other subjects like meteorology. But the overlap is limited to topics specifically related to gliding. Dhaluza 02:22, 24 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I personally like the joint task force idea for the gliders. I think that is a great way to do that. -- Chrislk02 (Chris Kreider) 02:35, 24 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
FYI, there already is a List of gliders which still needs to be merged with List of glider manufacturers.Dhaluza 02:48, 24 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Wow! I go away on a business trip for a week and you guys "change the world"! :-) Good idea, though! Askari Mark (Talk) 02:37, 25 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

WP:Aviation

I've gone ahead and created the project. Lets move this conversation there. - Trevor MacInnis (Contribs) 02:51, 24 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

ATR

Anyone else care to join me in cleaning up the ATR article? It still needs some serious help, although I've done quite a bit on it.--chris.lawson 19:14, 23 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Wow, what a mess! Looks like someone didn't realize there was a ATR 42/72 page, and tried to put the info on the company page! There wasn't even a link to the aircraft article. Thanks for the heads-up; I'll do what I can. - BillCJ 19:27, 23 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Oops, boy, did I get that one wrong! Actually, some just restored the old ATR 42/72 page that was previously merged into the ATR page. Since there was no real discussion on the merge, I missed it. Probably best to discuss this on the ATR page. - BillCJ 19:34, 23 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah, the merge was about a year ago, IIRC, and there wasn't much discussion on it. As I noted on the ATR Talk page, I don't think there's enough material to justify two separate articles, but if people think there is, be my guest.--chris.lawson 19:37, 23 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
To me, it seems strange having a company and 2 aircraft on the same page. That's why I misunderstood what was going on when I first saw the page. I'd support a split, but we should have a better disscussion this time. - BillCJ 19:47, 23 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

CASA 2.111

I've finally spun this out of my sandbox and into the Real World of aircraft articles. If anybody would like to help - or if anyone has books on the He 111 or CASA - please throw in some content! ericg ✈ 19:57, 25 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Project tags

I've been going through tagging and retagging some articles. I found a few interesting questions, and would like to propose a consistent approach to dealing with these issues.

  1. Some articles are already tagged to one or more child projects. I suggest that if a page falls into more than one child project, it should be re-tagged for the parent aviation project. So pages that were tagged to Aircraft and Airports would be re-tagged to Aviation (with the same assessment).
  2. Articles that deal specifically with one project should be tagged to that project. So aircraft and parts of aircraft should be tagged to the Aircraft project (e.g. airframe). But terms relating to operation of the aircraft should be tagged to aviation (e.g. airway).

--Dhaluza 20:17, 25 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Aircraft engines

I added aircraft engines to the project scope, to clairfy that this should not be covered under WikiProject Aviation. The jet engine was originally used as an example under aviation technology in the proposal, but as a major airframe component, I think it would be better to categorize it with aircraft. The points I added to the scope are:

Any objections? Dhaluza 21:15, 25 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I had thought that WP:Aviation would take over that sort of article, leaving this project to only take care of specific aircraft (i.e. Cessna 172). - Trevor MacInnis (Contribs) 22:12, 25 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Project banner

has the project banner been set up to add the capability of specifying a task force (like the milhist one)? -- Chrislk02 (Chris Kreider) 15:53, 27 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I know that rotorcraft task force is already amended to the banner, I don't think Trevor has added in the other task forces just yet. --Born2flie 16:27, 27 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I've created a project banner at User:Trevor MacInnis/sandbox/Aviation banner. This banner can replace all the various banners used by the various projects, while still providing all the individual uses, such as categorizing articles under specific projects. It is based on the banner user by the Military history project ({{WPMILHIST}}). An example of it in use is at User talk:Trevor MacInnis/sandbox/Aviation banner, and you can see that by using the various parameters, all aviation articles will be combined under the aviation project at Category:WikiProject Aviation articles and when tagged properly, in their respective Category:Rotorcraft task force articles, etc. It will also allows us to introduce other areas of the Wikiproject, such as "collaboration of the month", and take advantage of the larger total number of users throughout the projects. Please comment at Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Aviation#A_Single_Project_Banner_for_use_by_all_aviation_related_projects. - Trevor MacInnis (Contribs) 21:17, 27 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I think I like it. Not sure about the Wright Flyer icon, but if there is one thing that can be used by Americans to signify Aviation, I guess that would be it. --Born2flie 02:24, 28 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

A request for help in the Amelia Earhart article

Fellow editors, your advice and help is needed here as another editor has constantly reverted the introductory passages of the Amelia Earhart despite the contentious nature of the statement that is made. The fact that the issue of Earhart's flying skills is addressed later in the article is not the real issue. Please read over the exchanges and then hopefully you will see a need to intervene. The aforementioned editor has constantly rebutted any arguments that show a different referenced source to the one that is purported to be the authoritative source. I have real reservations over the reliability of the TIGHAR information that is presented but irregardless it is the disregard of other editors' work that is the source of my consternation. Bzuk 21:38 27 February 2007 (UTC).

Please provide a link to the editor and some diffs. I will be glad to get involved from an adminstrative standpoint. -- Chrislk02 (Chris Kreider) 23:33, 27 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

A380 cite

We've got a low-grade edit war brewing on the Airbus A380 page. User:Skyring has been removing the {{fact}} tag from a line about the A380 being called the "Super Jumbo". His repsopnse is that it is a common term, and to just "Google" it. I'm not sure that qualifies as a verifiable source per Wiki policy, but I am hesitiant to get involved in this given my lack of familiarity with citing rules. COuld someone, preferably an admin, take a look at this issue and see what can be done? Thanks. - BillCJ 01:13, 28 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think that Googling in itself counts as a particularly good verifiable source, because the result of Googlin can vary with time. However some of the links returned by Google could be. So I think I will add one. -- Cabalamat 02:26, 28 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Not sure if the term is coined by Airbus or just used in reference to the A380 being the preeminent jumbo jet in the market. --Born2flie 02:28, 28 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Hawker Siddeley Harrier - assistance required

I had Hawker Siddeley Harrier moved back to the original, and correct, article name, Hawker Siddeley Harrier, as there is no hyphen in the company name (well, apart from in WP!) However, it would seem - Special:Whatlinkshere/Hawker Siddeley Harrier - that there are a LOT of redirects that need sorted. Is anyone savvy enough with bots or AWB to do this in bulk? I spent a lot of time manually sorting out redirects via Hawker-Siddeley and I would prefer not to do it all over again! Regards Emoscopes Talk 05:45, 28 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I've had Russbot help me with such things in the past, you can contact the owner at User talk:R'n'B. Akradecki 05:53, 28 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Test pilots

I was considering creating a list of Chief Test Pilots for the Short Brothers article; it has been suggested there that perhaps a general list of test pilots might be created, which would go beyond the list of notable test pilots here. This project would be the sensible place for such a discussion. I'm not really thinking about full biographies, just a few important details for each, e.g.

  • general info (date of birth, death etc, country of origin)
  • test pilots' school attended (if applicable)
  • companies worked for
  • aircraft flown for the first time
  • other aircraft tested
  • major achievements (e.g. major 'firsts' such as VTOL, supersonic, carrier take-off/landing etc)
  • military service (if applicable)
  • decorations, honours etc. etc.

Would it be part of the test pilot article, a separate page there, a separate article, included in the list of project lists? Loads of aspects! Any comments? Thanks. TraceyR 10:46, 28 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I would think that a list of some sort would be most appropriate, but I would also question the inclusion criteria. Notability must be established, and how are you going to decide? There are thousands of active and retired test pilots, who to include? For other subjects, the standard of notability is having a wikiarticle. That sounds like it won't apply, as these will be mini-bios, so that implies inclusion of guys that don't have wikiarticles. Maybe having been honored? I started an effort to write bios for all the test pilots honored on the Aerospace Walk of Honor, and there's a lot more to do there. There's other awards that have been issued, as well (such as the SETP awards) that might give you a source as well. Akradecki 15:09, 28 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I take your point - it could be a very long list! IF it were to happen, some structure would be required, e.g. by decade or company within country. I'll think I'll stick to my original plan for the time being. And your point about 'notability' is very topical: since I raised the question a few test pilots have been added to the test pilot article and, although there is a WP article for most of them, they are perhaps not all universally considered notable e.g. does 'piloting' the first private space vehicle accord notability as a test pilot? (Is space flight 'aviation' in the strict sense of the word?) Does piloting the British Concorde on its first flight? If so, where is pilot of the French Concorde, which flew first? etc etc. I can already hear the sound of edit wars! TraceyR 18:41, 28 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
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