Talk:Alexandra of Denmark

The oldest son of Alix and Bertie was called 'Albert Victor', not 'Albert Edward', which was Bertie's name. (I don't know how he got the nickname 'Eddy' I don't know. Maybe Edward was a subsequent name, but history records him as Albert Victor.
Source: Harold Nicolson, King George V - family tree at the back.

Alix's suicide attempt, and the fashion craze started by the high 'choker' collars, was reported in newspaper coverage on royal suicide attempts that followed claims about Diana, Princess of Wales's supposed suicide attempt. It featured in a number of Irish, British and continental papers, as well as in magazines. JTD 01:11 Jan 18, 2003 (UTC)

Would the British Royal Family settle for a piddling two names? I think not ;). Edward was indeed a subsequent name: Albert Victor Christian Edward, Duke of Clarence. I had never heard the choker bit, very interesting...and rather an unusual suicide method. -- Someone else 01:15 Jan 18, 2003 (UTC)

Thanx. I didn't have his full name. I presumed Eddy was in there somewhere but he was formally known simply as Albert Victor just as the Duke of Windsor was known as 'Prince Edward' even though his family called him David.

Apparently Alix tried to cut her own throat. When it was a genuine suicide attempt, or something akin to one of Diana's melodramatic 'suicide' attempts (one of which apparently used a knife that was so blunt (and which she knew was so blunt) that it wouldn't cut melted butter!) Alix does come across as a very nice, genuine woman. But people who knew of the scar found it bizarre that millions of women in Britain, Ireland and even America began wearing Choker Collars (often made of lace), having absolutely no idea that Alix wasn't making a fashion choice but was trying to conceal a major scar. Indeed, quite apart from the suicide link, she and Diana were quite alike; strikingly beautiful women in marriages that were none too solid, with difficult relationships with courtiers, married to husbands who if they inherited the throne at all, would only inherit it in old age.

One can only hope that Prince William isn't a modern equivalent of poor Prince Eddy, who was mentally deficient (to put it mildly); others called him at the time mentally retarded'. And the poor lad did have a habit of stumbling quite innocently into 'scandals'; from supposedly being 'Jack the Ripper' (a bit difficult given that for one of the murders, he was up in Balmoral, in full view of Queen Victoria, the German Kaiser, the Prime Minister and senior ministers at dinner. (Even in the days of Concorde, he'd have difficulty getting down to London, murder a prostitute, and then get back to Balmoral in time for dessert! )The of course, there was the rumour that he was caught up in the Cleveland St. gay brothel scandal. I think Britain's monarchy had a lucky escape when he died and the throne went to his younger brother, who as George V was one of Britain's finest ever monarchs. JTD 03:12 Jan 18, 2003 (UTC)

Opening paragraph

Wikipedia does not put birth and death locations in the opening paragraph between the birth and death dates. The style is simply to use <style><name> (<birth>-<death>). Other information goes later in the article. I have removed mention of where someone was born and where someone died to elsewhere. FearÉIREANN 22:37, 28 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Pre-marital name

The respected source, Oxford Dictionary of National Biographies, says clearly in its article of Edward VII, that he married "Princess Alexandra of Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Glucksburg". Which is of course true, since in Spring 1863, Alexandra's father (the future Christian IX of Denmark) had not yet ascended the Danish throne. Despite of the fact that her father was at that time already long been recognized as a heir of Denmark, they were yet of a collateral branch (such as Kent, Gloucester and York in today's British royal family - their members being designated as "of Kent", "of York") and not of the main branch of that royal house.

• New York Times, when printing newspiece about the marriage at those days, avoided territorial designation of Alexandra, saying in the news that Edward married "Her Royal Highness Princess Alexandra".

This means, in my opinion, that Alexandra's proper pre-marital name is Alexandra of Glucksburg. Denmark could only be some common parlance version. 217.140.193.123 29 June 2005 14:59 (UTC)

She is always called Alexandra of Denmark. john k 14:57, 3 August 2005 (UTC)

Elsewhere, John wrote: "The NYT marriage stuff doesn't really help - it certainly doesn't call her "Princess Alexandra of Schleswig-Holstein" or anything like that. What would be neeted would be a Court Circular or London Gazette entry, I think. john k 14:55, 3 August 2005 (UTC)"

Since it is you who desires those, could you kindly check them from Court Circular and from London Gazette. In my opinion, NYT (which is one of those that are easily available from even so early years) reflects how many English-speakers knew her at the time, which is of course a criterion. 217.140.193.123 07:41, 4 August 2005 (UTC)

The NYT does not call her Princess Alexandra of Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Glücksburg. So that is not terribly useful, is it? john k 17:50, 4 August 2005 (UTC)

You might do worse than look at the latest book on the subject -- Princesses of Wales by Deborah Fisher (University of Wales Press, 2005). That could surely be quoted as an authority. Deb 17:53, 4 August 2005 (UTC)

I have got the understanding that the said book has been authored by someone not scholarly highly qualified. Of course there are plenty of books about royals, written by a motley gang of persons, for whatever reasons - that topic seems to attract dilettantes - in libraries, there are gossip books, photo collection books, etc. about royals. Also we do not put very much authoritativeness e.g regarding geographical research to travel guide books. In this question, we have above been trying to find authoritative sources drom the period in question (such as London Gazette and Court Circular, if such existed), so a book written in recent years does not somehow reflect that contemporary usage. 217.140.193.123 19:22, 4 August 2005 (UTC)

I've posted a query on alt.talk.royalty, which is usually good for ironing out issues like this. I wonder, though, why you are denigrating a source published by a university press? That suggests, at least, that it should be assumed to be a reputable source unless proven otherwise. john k 20:24, 4 August 2005 (UTC)

Okay then, let's be serious for a moment. There are probably a couple of reasons why she was called Alexandra of Denmark by the British. One is that the Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Glücksburg was too much for us to get our tongues around. Another is that that particular dynasty seems to have had several princesses called Alexandra. Either way, what we are doing is selecting the most common name used by UK sources to refer to her now, not at the time she was married. Deb 21:10, 4 August 2005 (UTC)

Yep :))) The seriousness somehow got lost when Deborah Fisher began to advertise Deborah Fisher's writings as authority.

I somehow sensed that you didn't understand the joke. Ah well, never mind, it's British humour, you see. Deb 22:07, 4 August 2005 (UTC)

Ah, the "authority" part is a joke. I agree.

I think that Queen Alexandra was titled "HRH Princess Alexandra of Denmark" at the time of her marriage. First of all, do you really think that the children of the heir to the Danish throne would not be given any Danish titles? Also, on [1] it says that her titles were HH Princess Alexandra of Denmark before 1858 and HRH Princess after. Though the site does look very small-time and possibly inaccurate, I have found it to be very reliable for things like this. --Matjlav 21:23, 4 August 2005 (UTC)

Did you remember that before 1863, her father was not THE heir of Denmark, he was only at maximum the second in line after hereditary prince Frederik Ferdinand. Depends on traditions, but such position put him as father to the same category as "princess of Kent" in UK. Being also Princess of the United Kingdom, but known with the name Kent. (Of course, if we were to change the stupid headings such as Adelaide of Cambridge, Margaret of Connaught, Alice of Albany, Marie of Edinburgh, Maud of Wales, then...) - And, I would like to stress that maidenists who have tried to use "Alix of Hesse and by Rhine" should be consistent in their endeavors and not illogically repel the form "Alexandra of Glucksburg". Some "university presses" are commercial enterprises, I would be more forthcoming were the publication for example an academically scrutinized dissertation. Then, some universities tend to be nationalistic strongholds, which has impact to certain things. Do you have any counter-argument to usage by the Oxford Dictionary of National Biographies? 217.140.193.123 21:59, 4 August 2005 (UTC)

Henri van Oene's site is an excellent resource. He actually verifies his facts. It states that she was born Her Serene Highness Princess Alexandra of Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Glücksburg and that she became Her Highness Princess Alexandra of Denmark on July 31, 1853 and that on December 21, 1858 she was elevated to the style of Royal Highness while her title remained unchanged.

Also, I found that the Royal Warrant issued for consent to her marriage to The Prince of Wales. She is listed as Her Royal Highness The Princess Alexandra (additional names), daughter of Prince Christian of Denmark. This is viewable in the London Gazette issue 22667 published on Novemeber 4, 1862. I tried to link the issue but it breaks the link. Just search the archive for the date I listed and enter "princess alexandra" into the search bar, it's on the first page. The London Gazette is the place to find offical statements, Royal Warrants, Letters Patent, anything in privy council, ect... everything is always published in the Gazette. You can search the archive at London Gazette Searchable Archive 76.105.150.19 03:42, 20 August 2007 (UTC) Queen Brandissima

Brandissima, don't bold your entire post, it is terribly annoying and may be seen as rude. I have unbolded it. To the anon user 217.140.193.123, the "maidenists" use a consort's highest title which she holds in her own right, not by virtue of marriage nor a title given to her in anticipation of her marriage (for instance, Nicholas II married a Grand Duchess because Alix of Hesse had been created so prior to her marriage). Charles 03:53, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

Traditions for Denmark and the UK are different - I don't see how we can make an analogy. BTW here is an alt.talk.royalty thread dealing with this issue - everyone seems to agree that they were made princes/ses of Denmark along with their father in 1853. And that's a forum where somebody would be sure to have corrected it if it was wrong. Linked there is the actual ordinance making Christian heir after Frederick VII and his uncle. It very clearly states that Christian and his wife were being made Prince and Princess of Denmark by this act (not Hereditary Prince, as you have claimed - this title belonged to the King's uncle), although it doesn't specifically mention their children. john k 22:12, 4 August 2005 (UTC)

It should be added that normally, the children of a Prince and Princess of Denmark would themselves be Princes and Princesses of Denmark, unless one has some evidence that they were not. john k 22:21, 4 August 2005 (UTC)

That's absolutely right. When Christian became a "Prince of Denmark", his children became princes and princesses x, y and z "of Denmark". I knew it must be written down somewhere (apart from that excellent new book published by the University of Wales Press...) Deb 22:24, 4 August 2005 (UTC)

No lover

"Alexandra herself was never known to have taken a lover. Those within the monarchy commonly did do so (women monarchs included), however for someone of her social stature, it would not have been socially accepted if common knowledge." I'm surprised by the assertion that women monarchs commonly took lovers, especially if the reference is to British Queens. Queen Caroline (Princess Caroline of Brunswick, consort of George IV) did so, but was the subject of a very messy divorce as a result. Queen Victoria's relationship with John Brown was probably not sexual. I can't think of anyone else in modern times - Edward II's consort Isabelle is going back about 700 years. References? Chelseaboy 15:00, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

Issue???

Why is there no mention of all of her children? On the bio for Mary of Teck there is a chart listing all of her children, yet this article seems to only mention Prince Albert Victor? --Mdieke 07:22, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

Okay, I've added a chart listing her children --Mdieke 08:15, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

Alexandra of Denmark or Queen Alexandra

I am confused as to why an article about Queen Alexandra is listed as Alexandra of Denmark. I believe it has already been established in the talk paages that she couldn't have been "princess of Denmark" until after she was already married. We must be concerned with accuracy not what is common in newspapers.

I believe it would be more accurate to refer to her by her most distinguished title. We should place particular importance on the fact that this is a women who was crowned as Queen during the coronation of her husband, King Edward VII. She even wore the oil that she was anointed with all day following the coronation. That to me takes precedence over her birth title. She was crowned as Queen during her husband's coronation and she was buried as Queen Alexandra.

I should also note that the reference to her as "Queen Mother" is wholly inaccurate. The phrase and title "Queen Mother" didn't come into existance until the late Queen Elizabeth The Queen Mother. Prior to her creation and use of the title it was never used. Queen Alexandra like Queen Mary was a Dowager Queen, but she was never offically styled as such. She remained HM Queen Alexandra until her own death.

This is not true: see section below. Myopic Bookworm 09:43, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

Any other encyclopedia in the world would list this women as Queen Alexandra with notes on her premarital and pre-coronation status. 76.105.150.19 10:26, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

Alexandra certainly was, or became, a princess of Denmark at some point in her life. The article currently states that Alexandra became a princess of Denmark ten years before she married and became Princess of Wales. The convention here on Wikipedia is to name a consort by her highest pre-marital title. Her highest premarital title is that of a royal princess of Denmark, rather than a princess of the ducal house of Schleswig-Holstein-Sønderburg-Glücksburg. The only reason she was ever crowed queen is because she was a consort. Again, the Wikipedia naming conventions for consorts state what I have already said in this post. You may have a point on the use of "Queen Mother", but I believe it is implied as a position as it is understood today: a queen dowager who is the mother of the sovereign. Charles 04:03, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

She became a Princess of Denmark in 1853. I am aware that she was crowned because her husband was King. I'm certain I stated that in my original comment. However, that does not change the fact that she was crowned and anointed as Queen Constort. Why would wikipedia list a women who was crowned and buried as a Queen by a title that she only held for 10 years of her 81 year life? I understand the maidenist view but I don't understand why this very unecylopedic system is even being used. It seems logically specious.

There is even dispute that a women who has been crowned during the coronation even as a consort could ever be styled as anything else if she were to divorce without an act of Parliment.

I think it is also specious to use "Queen Mother" as a position or title for women who did not hold the title and who weren't referred to as such during their lifetime. We are are having a discussion over in "British Queen Mothers" as to the historical usage and existance of such a distinction. I'm not sure that we should be applying the term to women who didn't use it irreguardless of the modern understanding of it. We certainly shouldn't be putting it in articles of non-British women. Queen Mother is a wholly British invention.

Wikipedia is not using "Queen Mother" consistantly for women who are only a queen dowager who is the other of a sovereign. Moreover, the term dowager isn't used for women who themselves held the title in their own right (e.g. Juliana of the Netherlands) it is used for a widow who's husband held the title. And, according to Debrett's, Black's and Burke's a women can only ever be a dowager if the current heir is a decendant of her late husband. [2]

The usage isn't consistant and it hasn't been referenced in numerous articles. 76.105.150.19 06:38, 20 August 2007 (UTC) Queen Brandissima

Regardless of whether there is a dispute on anointing or not, it is not Wikipedia's place to inject itself into that dispute. The definition of queen mother is the mother of a sovereign who is a queen dowager. That is exactly what Alexandra was. Queen mother, not Queen Mother. Debrett's, Burke's et al cannot account for ever case of when there is or is not a queen mother. Surely Juliana is a different case, but we cannot determine that on Wikipedia. See WP:OR. The article British Queen Mothers or whatever it is named should be called British queen mothers, as Queen Mother as a proper noun was only ever given to one queen dowager. Charles 07:02, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

That's odd because the definition of queen mother being used implies that she is also a dowager. The two are not mutually inclusive of the other. Debrett's, et al, are clarifing the usage of 'dowager' as it is properly used by a queen, duchess, countess or baroness.

Queen Juliana is certainly different. However, I disagree with you on whether it is a wiki matter because someone has apparently included it into her wikipedia article. If it cannot be determined on Wikipedia then surely it should not be included in her article.

Apparently, there are two other women who were given the proper noun aka title Queen Mother historically, but that is not relevant to this article.

76.105.150.19 07:58, 20 August 2007 (UTC) Queen Brandissima

I agree that it appears slightly weird to list Queen Alexandra as "Alexandra of Denmark", but that is only because she happens to be a recent consort, so most popular reference to her is to Queen Alexandra. It is at least arguably logical to treat her like Queen Katherine (better known as "Katherine of Aragon") or Queen Eleanor (better known as "Eleanor of Aquitaine"). The key thing, though, is the better known as.As I understood it, it is usual Wikipedia policy to list people by their best-known name, and it is surely the case that Alexandra is better known as "Queen Alexandra". Myopic Bookworm

Queen Mother

This is not a general term in idiomatic English: one does not usually speak of "a Queen mother", but only of, at a particular time, the bearer of the title "the Queen Mother". Although Alexandra (like some others) did not like the title of Queen Mother, it was one of her official titles, and it was used as such, most prominently in the Prayer for the Royal Family in the Book of Common Prayer, which will have been said widely and frequently in Anglican churches while she lived. Myopic Bookworm 09:42, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

It was not one of her offical titles. It has only ever been an offical title of one women that being Queen Elizabeth, The Queen Mother. Being used in a prayer does not make it offical any more than it made "princess Diana" offical. 76.105.150.19 10:35, 8 September 2007 (UTC)