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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Mav (talk | contribs) at 02:10, 18 January 2004. The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Talk:September 11, 2001 Terrorist Attacks/Footer template - moved out of main namespace.

See also Casualties Talk, US governmental response Talk and Hijackers Talk.

Old talk archived at Talk:September 11, 2001 Terrorist Attack/Archive and Talk:September_11,_2001_attacks/archive2

There isn't going to be any convincing of Wik, so we need to have a discussion instead of a move-war about this, please. In the form of a vote. Personally I find the whole debate a shining example of doublespeak, George Orwell would be proud, and it is sickening to me, but let's have the debate and *vote* somewhere, please. Tempshill 08:46, 17 Jan 2004 (UTC)

A good idea, and one that will (hopefully) bring this whole pedantric matter to a close. My prediction is that "keep the terrorist word in" side will win handsomely. Arno 09:21, 17 Jan 2004 (UTC)

OK. Let's do it. Tannin
Err .... but I better point out that it is not pedantic. "Terrorist" is a value-laden, emotive word. It doesn't describe a type of action, it describes a type of judgemet about that action, and as such is inapropriate for use as an article title here. Tannin
Disagree with the latter sentence, and even Wik conceded that the attack was, objectively, a terrorist attack. Certainly it is emotionally loaded, but still is accurate. It is a disservice to truth to sanitize your vocabulary for fear of offending someone. Hence my vote for including "terrorist" in the title. Tempshill 18:13, 17 Jan 2004 (UTC)
No, I only said it was terrorist by any technical definition that ignores the judgemental content of the word. Otherwise, will you agree to call the Dresden bombings terrorist, or Israeli bombings of civilian areas in Palestine? This would be just as "accurate". --Wik 18:26, Jan 17, 2004 (UTC)
I will agree to have this same debate on each bombing you cite, yes, but not to make a sweeping declaration that nothing (or everything) must be called "terrorist" or "massacre" or "murder" because these words are judgmental. Tempshill 19:58, 17 Jan 2004 (UTC)
We should be consistent. Either we avoid the term generally or we use it in every case where the technical definition applies. --Wik 20:12, Jan 17, 2004 (UTC)
Encylopedias are not about technical definitions, they are about common usage. Anthony DiPierro 20:51, 17 Jan 2004 (UTC)
Err... yes it is pedantric, but let's vote rather than argue. Arno 09:29, 17 Jan 2004 (UTC)
The arguments for terrorist have all been made to the point where I feel anything I write would be redundant. These were obviously terrorist attacks; as mentioned on Talk:Osama bin Laden, even bin Laden calls them terrorist. The comparison to Dresden, Israel, etc., only serve to underscore this fact, which is to say, seeking to call such things terrorist in no way alters the terrorist nature of other acts, but in fact reinforces it. The argument goes something like: If blowing up a passenger bus in Tel Aviv is an act of terrorism, then isn't the Israeli military's raid on Jenin also because of so-and-so similarities? By analogy, consider (say) an issue in the California recall election. While called by some auto registration fees, others called those fees a car tax. The same argument could be made: How is that not too a tax, just like, say, the income tax? This does not function as an argument for not calling the income tax a tax because tax is "controversial" or "emotive"; rather, it makes it clear that the income tax is a tax, and puts forth a (potentially controversial) argument for extending the term tax to other fees. But it would put forth a POV, the view which accepts this parallel, to have titles such as "Jenin terrorist raid" and "Dresden terrorist bombing", but in no way is POV to call the 9/11 Terrorist Attacks exactly what they were. -- VV 01:06, 18 Jan 2004 (UTC)
You're mistaken on several points. 1) Actually, Bin Laden said this: "They rip us of our wealth and of our resources and of our oil. Our religion is under attack. They kill and murder our brothers. They compromise our honor and our dignity and dare we utter a single word of protest against the injustice, we are called terrorists. This is compounded injustice." Does this sound as if he accepts this term? When accused of terrorism, he may play along and say something like "If avenging the killing of our people is terrorism then history should be a witness that we are terrorists." But other than in response to such questions he does not see himself as a terrorist. 2) Wrong analogies. No one denies the income tax is a tax. The controversy here only starts when the word is to be applied to things which can be easily argued to be substantially different (such as user fees). But you have not made a case for how Dresden is substantially different from 9/11. Calling it terrorism is POV in both cases. If 9/11 is supposed to be "objectively" terrorism, then Dresden and Jenin must be too. You'd have to make up some arbitrary definition to make it apply to one and not the other. --Wik 01:42, Jan 18, 2004 (UTC)

Google Hits

"september 11" - 3,940,000 (I think we can safely throw this one out as incidental - 151.204.210.18)
"september 11, 2001" - 2,220,000
"september 11, 2002" - 384,000 (for comparison)
"september 4, 2002" - 199,000 (more comparison)
"september 11th" - 1,390,000 (this one too --Wik)
"september 4th" - 121,000 (more comparison)
"september 11 attacks" - 289,000
"september 11 terrorist attacks" - 125,000
"september 11th, attacks" - 67,800
"september 11, 2001 terrorist attacks" - 40,800
"september 11, 2001 attacks" - 30,200
"september 11th, terrorist attacks" - 28,700
"september 11th, 2001 terrorist attacks" - 1,100
"september 11th, 2001 attacks" - 1,060

but...Pfortuny 20:04, 17 Jan 2004 (UTC)

Poll on page title

Feel free to change your postion at any time based on new arguements.

  • September 11, 2001 attacks
  1. Tannin 09:22, 17 Jan 2004 (UTC)
  2. Delirium 18:34, Jan 17, 2004 (UTC)
  3. Fred Bauder 19:01, 17 Jan 2004 (UTC)
  4. SimonP 19:02, Jan 17, 2004 (UTC) (I would also drop the 2001)
  5. Lou I 19:12, 17 Jan 2004 (UTC)
  6. Arwel 20:18, 17 Jan 2004 (UTC)
  7. Onebyone 20:30, 17 Jan 2004 (UTC)
  8. WormRunner 21:19, 17 Jan 2004 (UTC)
  9. Kokiri
  10. Jiang 00:24, 18 Jan 2004 (UTC) (other encyclopedias use it, but count this vote and disregard the other provided that terrorist not be removed from the text)
  11. Meelar As long as the word "terrorist" is in the article, we don't need it in the title
  12. ☮ Eclecticology 01:05, 2004 Jan 18 (UTC)
  13. mav This whole thread is operating on a hugely misinformed assumption; that NPOV applies to titles. It cannot, nor should it ever. If it did, then titles would have to be very long and near impossible to remember. We have to choose just one term for every title and that is inherently a POV process. The convention we have decided to use in these cases is common usage among English speakers with caveats for ambiguity and unreasonable offensiveness. So if a term happens to have "terrorist" or "massacre" in its most common name, then we use that term as the page title. With that said, it does appear, that, in this case, the word "terrorist" is neither more common, nor needed for disambiguation for this title. On that basis, and on that basis alone, should it be removed. As a matter of fact, this may work for most other cases where "terrorist" is in the title (but not so for "massacre").
  • September 11, 2001 terrorist attacks
  1. Arno 09:29, 17 Jan 2004 (UTC)
  2. PMA 15:13, Jan 17, 2004 (UTC)
  3. Rmhermen 15:24, Jan 17, 2004 (UTC)
  4. Tempshill 18:13, 17 Jan 2004 (UTC)
  5. —Eloquence 19:10, Jan 17, 2004 (UTC) (if used consistently for CIA-sponsored terrorism as well)
  6. WhisperToMe 19:53, 17 Jan 2004 (UTC)
  7. Pfortuny 19:56, 17 Jan 2004 (UTC)
  8. Maximus Rex 00:20, 18 Jan 2004 (UTC)
  9. Jiang 00:24, 18 Jan 2004 (UTC) (see conditions above)
  10. Dori
  11. VV 00:45, 18 Jan 2004 (UTC) (I'd be open to dropping the 2001 however)
  • September 11, 2001
  1. Anthony DiPierro 19:47, 17 Jan 2004 (UTC)

Note that this vote is solely for the title. I don't think the word terrorist should be taken out of the text itself. If there are credible arguments that the attacks were not terrorism, they can be included. In any case, that is a separate vote. Anthony DiPierro 19:50, 17 Jan 2004 (UTC)

I think it is a nice thing to have exceptions in any policy, and this one seems good enough for me. This explains my vote above. Pfortuny 19:56, 17 Jan 2004 (UTC)

I think that calls for the term terrorist be applied consistently are politics in a thin disguise. It is fortunate that in this case, specifying "attacks" rather than "terrorist attacks" is sufficient to identify what the article is about, so I think that in the interests of avoiding a spree of people adding "terrorist" to various articles in order to make political points about government-sponsered terrorism we should just do the simple thing. Furthermore, talking about "the" definition of terrorism is disingenuous, since various groups have produced different definitions according to their biases and their aims, to reflect the different things that they mean when they talk about terrorism. Onebyone 20:30, 17 Jan 2004 (UTC)

I think calling them merely "attacks" dilutes the reality of the situation. Specifying "September 11, 2001" is likewise sufficient to identify what the article is about. As for "the" definition of terrorism, Wikipedia is based on common usage, isn't it? What this event is referred to as should be the only question. Even if it definitively wasn't terrorism, if it's overwhelmingly referred to as such that's the title we should use. We still call it Manifest Destiny, don't we? Anthony DiPierro 20:45, 17 Jan 2004 (UTC)
It is not "overwhelmingly" called terrorism. --Wik 20:51, Jan 17, 2004 (UTC)
Nor is it "overwhelmingly" called "September 11, 2001 attacks." If you noticed, I didn't vote for either. Anthony DiPierro 20:54, 17 Jan 2004 (UTC)
No one made that claim. There is no "overwhelmingly" used name, so we should just describe it in a concise and NPOV manner. --Wik 20:58, Jan 17, 2004 (UTC)
I think it's quite clear that neither title is NPOV. And my point about "overwhelmingly" was to defend the statement that definitions are meaningless. Anthony DiPierro 21:05, 17 Jan 2004 (UTC)
I agree they would be meaningless if there were an overwhelmingly used name. But there isn't, so they aren't. And I don't see what's not NPOV about "September 11, 2001 attacks". --Wik 21:23, Jan 17, 2004 (UTC)
Well, I still say they're meaningless. But I guess I can't use the Manifest Destiny argument any more. In any case, I find it hard to see a definition of terrorism that doesn't include this event. Do you know of one? And what is not NPOV about "September 11, 2001 attacks" is that it implies that the attacks were not terrorist, especially when you type in "September 11, 2001 terrorist attacks" and get redirected. Finally, I don't see the problem with using "September 11, 2001." Anthony DiPierro 21:30, 17 Jan 2004 (UTC)
The most common definition of "terrorism" implies condemnation, just like "murder" means an unjustified killing and those who support killings in certain circumstances won't ever call those killings "murder"; likewise those who support those attacks don't call them "terrorism". So the common definition doesn't include this event for those who support it. As to the other point, while not every "attack" has to be a "terrorist attack", every "terrorist attack" is also an "attack", so the title "September 11, 2001 attacks" does not imply that they were not terrorist. By the same logic, your proposed version "September 11, 2001" would imply that there wasn't even an attack! --Wik 01:12, Jan 18, 2004 (UTC)
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