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Wikipedia:Village pump archive 2004-09-26

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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Fabiform (talk | contribs) at 16:45, 25 April 2004 (=Interwikis on fr:= I can't open the file). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.
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Summarised sections

This is a list of discussions that have been summarised and moved to an appropriate place. This list gets deleted occasionally to make room for newer entries.

Greek unicodes

I have placed a set of Greek alphabet unicodes at the foot of my User page for anyone who works on Greek-related articles and shares my inability to memorise them. Adam 03:12, 23 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Wouldn't it be best to use HTML entities, for backwards compatibility? Dysprosia 10:28, 23 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Plus they are a lot easier to remember.theresa knott 11:01, 23 Apr 2004 (UTC)
HTML entities are hard to edit and look ugly in the editing window, not to mention that they are SGML only, and that Unicode can just be copied&pasted in any text editor. — Jor (Talk) 12:21, 23 Apr 2004 (UTC)
What was wrong with the Unicode tables in the Greek alphabet article? Gdr 11:56, 2004 Apr 23 (UTC)
There is nothing inherently wrong with Unicode, but most people who are on non-Unicode compliant systems can't see Unicode glyphs. Dysprosia 12:05, 23 Apr 2004 (UTC)
But people using those archaic systems won't be able to access most non-US ASCII websites anyway. Why punish everyone to cator to a very small minority which probably has no interest in reading Greek in the first place? — Jor (Talk) 12:21, 23 Apr 2004 (UTC)


That doesn't mean we should actively seek to prevent users on different, non-Unicode-compatible systems from reading the text. I was somewhat sure that Windows 9x versions were not natively Unicode compatible, but [1] seems to suggest that this is the case.
In any case, how are the HTML entities "punishment" in comparison to the Unicode glyphs? One would think that the numerical Unicode entity would be more painful to enter than the slightly more intuitive HTML text-based entity... Dysprosia 12:53, 23 Apr 2004 (UTC)
You can't save unicode characters into articles on en, the encoding is ISO 8859-1. If you paste in a unicode character, or type it somehow, most browsers will automatically convert it to a numeric character entity. You can type in unicode if you wish, but it means that numeric character entities will be saved (e.g. α) rather than the more readable named character entities, e.g. α. Unicode support in browsers is irrelevant. -- Tim Starling 01:15, Apr 24, 2004 (UTC)

Main Page: Where is it?

I tried to get into the Standard Main Page, but it wasn't there. Why is that? JB82 04:03, 23 Apr 2004 (UTC)

CLARIFICATION I clicked on the logo on the upper left of my User page and I got the Main Page. It's just when I type in the address, that's all. JB82 04:09, 23 Apr 2004 (UTC)

What did you type? RickK 04:27, 23 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Content

I have heard some users complaining about some of the unsuitable content articles. Wouldn't it be a good idea to create a msg to be put on the top of the page, just to let people know. Something like:

This article contains adult content.

or whatever. LUDRAMAN | T 21:21, 24 Apr 2004 (UTC)

No, we already have a disclaimers link on every page, which links to a content disclaimer. There is no need to add this to articles as well, in the same way that we no longer add the medical disclaimer to medical articles. See also Wikipedia talk:Content disclaimer and Wikipedia talk:Profanity. Angela. 21:56, Apr 24, 2004 (UTC)
a) The normal editing process for pages with such content insures that such pages quickly reach a metastable state governed by community consensus. In other words, whatever is in Wikipedia is already acceptable. If not, someone will change it until it is. Wikipedia is not a treasure-trove of prurient materials. It falls somewhere in the same range as "Our Bodies, Our Selves" or discussions on daytime television talk shows. It is IMHO far less sexualized than Cosmopolitan magazine or the Sports Illustrated swimsuit issue.
b) If it were easy to everyone to agree on precisely what constitutes "adult content", this might be a harmless idea. Since in fact such issues are contentious, it would probably provoke edit wars and waste a lot of time.
c) Exactly how many pages with adult content have you personally encountered that you were not specifically seeking? Unlike a print encyclopedia, it is not easy to riffle through the pages of Wikipedia and encounter such content.
d) Having seen such a warning, what normal human being would ever be able to resist peeking just to see what content was being warned against? How much "protection" does such a warning provide?
e) Such a mechanism would, of course, make it much easier for prurient souls to locate all the juicy Wikipedia stuff by going to Wikimedia:Adult and clicking on "What links here." Or, for that matter, Googling on "Wikipedia adult content." Whether that is an argument for or against such labelling, I leave to others to determine.
f) Older children and adolescents are exposed, and to some extent seek out, sexual content all the time. Witness the episode in Tom Sawyer where Tom catches Becky looking at a nude plate in the schoolteacher's anatomy textbook. It's all a matter of degree. When I was a kid some of us got a charge of sorts out of looking up words like "intercourse" and "rape" in the dictionary. But it was trivial compared to the calendars I saw in the office areas of the auto repair shop. My own kids got some of their sex education out of "The Whole Earth Catalog." On the Internet, Wikipedia is like the dictionary or the Whole Earth Catalog. The auto repair shop calendars are to be found elsewhere.
I mean, it's just not that big a deal and it's not worth worrying over. Dpbsmith 13:37, 25 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Where to answer user talk page questions

I sometimes ask another user a question on his/her talk page. Some of the users respond on their talk page underneath my question, some on my talk page with a new heading. Is there a guideline where to answer, or is it up to the user? I thought it is easier if the entire conversation is on one page. -- chris 73 | Talk 11:54, 25 Apr 2004 (UTC)

This is because of an awkwardness of the software, but it's not easy to see how to improve it: when someone adds a comment to your talk page, you see a special "You have new messages" link at the top of every page loaded; whereas to track somebody else's talk page, you'd have to add it to your watchlist - which means that you will see every comment posted to that user, and every change to their user page, as well, until you unwatch it. Obviously, for a user who gets a lot of messages, this can be somewhat less than helpful; but the alternative, as you say, is that the conversation gets split into two incoherent halves.
What's more, with different people following different conventions, you don't know whether to assume they'll watch your talk page just because they added to it, so you more or less have to reply at theirs. That said, it might be possible to come up with a compromise: add a not to your talk page saying that if somebody is responding, they should make a trivial edit (so it triggers the notification) - or maybe list their name or something - and then reply on their own User_talk: page. That way the conversation stays together, but you know when it's been updated... - IMSoP 12:21, 25 Apr 2004 (UTC)
A good way to follow conversations on talk pages other than your own is to use the "My contributions" list. If there have been any edits to the talk page in question, your edit is no longer marked as "top". Explaining your preferred comment procedure on your talk page is a good idea.--Eloquence* 13:53, Apr 25, 2004 (UTC)
I answer on my talk page and then leave a note "I answered on my talk page" on theirs. It takes two edits instead of one but the conversation is in one place and their notification message gets triggered. Pete/Pcb21 (talk) 15:00, 25 Apr 2004 (UTC)
I alternate between the two. Originally, I mostly replied on the other person's talk page, these days I more often reply on my talk page. Replying on the other talk page is IMHO more courteous, and ensures that they will get the message as quickly as possible. Replying on your own talk page takes is easier for you because it requires less clicks. It keeps the discussion in one place and thus makes it easier to follow for others watching the discussion. So it depends on how lazy you are, what tone you want to set, and whether or not you want other people to be able to read the conversation at a glance. -- Tim Starling 15:13, Apr 25, 2004 (UTC)


If you want to be sure the other person will get your message, you should reply on their talk page, or at least tell them on their talk page that you have replied elsewhere. You can't assume that people will have your talk page on their watchlist, so there's a chance they will never see your reply there. Angela.
Would it be an option to copy (not cut) the entire question and paste it onto the other talk page, and then write your answer underneath? If everybody did this, then both parties would have a complete copy of the conversation on their talk page. Of course, for longer conversations you copy only the part that is missing since the last exchange. -- chris 73 | Talk 15:58, 25 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Yes, there's nothing stopping you doing that on your own page. It's up to the other user whether they also want a whole copy of it on their talk page though. Angela. 16:07, Apr 25, 2004 (UTC)
OK, I'll complete the half-conversations only on my page then, and still answer on the other persons page. Thanks. -- Chris 73 | (New) Talk 16:28, 25 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Interwikis on fr:

There are 16,000 articles on the French Wikipedia without an interwiki to the English Wikipedia. A list is available at http://mboquien.free.fr/nointerwiki.gz You need an edito that can read unicode. --Youssef 16:22, 25 Apr 2004 (UTC)

I can't seem to open that file. Would someone take the list and put it up on wikipedia somewhere? (On en or fr) - I imagine it would need to be split up into pages of 1000 links... that way we could update it as well, especially if we were to work through it, deleting from the list as they're done. fabiform | talk 16:45, 25 Apr 2004 (UTC)
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