Talk:Heinrich Himmler

Nazi mysticism

I think a new article dedicated to Nazi mysticism would be nice. Kent Wang 04:41, 2 Jan 2004 (UTC)

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He carried the Imperial German Battle Ensign in the Munich Putsch, the Party's failed attempt at a nationwide right-wing revolution.

Should this read "flag" instead of "ensign"? I believe that to most readers, "ensign" means a Navy officer rather than a flag.

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Some of Zippy's changes, though well-intentioned, IMO may be POV or have implications that are historically inaccurate. Specifically:

• calling the Nazis "extreme" and "right-wing" is POV (and the latter is something that some people find contentious)
• saying "deemed by Hitler to be [...] Untermenschen" is historically inaccurate; decisions like this were often not made by Hitler, but were made by subordinates in decentralised and contradictory ways.
• "regime" is arguably a POV term, meaning a government the speaker doesn't like. Should we replace it with "government"?

-- Cabalamat 17:24, 13 Sep 2003 (UTC)

The Nazis were certainly not right-wing. But they were extreme. I don't think that that is a point of view.

[.]Lots od the "facts" we "know" about the "Nazis" are anyway misleading. Anyway: Usage of loaded unscientific terminology like "Nazi" is misleading. Use National Socialist (Nationalsozialisten) instead. -- Bigbossman 04:27, 21 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Wrong picture caption?

I think the following caption is wrong. "Himmler (with machine gun) mans a Freikorps barricade in 1923" There were no Freikorpses anymore in 1923. I think this is is a pic from Himmler involved in the failed Nazi putsch in 1923. Andries 13:44, 8 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Thats a very well known picture of Reichskriegsflage members who supported the Nazi putsch. As far as the Freikorps not existing in 1923, that was a period when they were at thier height. The private armies existed all the way up to about 1933 when the Nazis merged them into the SA or they were disbanded -Husnock 8Jan05

The Nazi party was a right winged party, as Communisim is a left winged party.

Photo Flipped

It appears someone went in and saved an upside image of Himmler's body ontop of the old picture that used to be in this article. I tried 4 times to get it back, but kept coming up with teh upside down image. Probably need an administrator. -Husnock 13Feb05

Looks like it got fixed

Himmler's Nazi ideology

I think it would be reasonable to add into the article that he was the fervent nazi in the entire party.

Sounds pretty POV to me. There were others you coukld say who were more fanatical. -Husnock 05:24, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Actually, Himmler was not a fervent or rabid anti-semite unlike several other Party members like Joseph Goebbels, Karl Adolf Eichmann, Julius Streicher to name a few and certainly not cast in the mould of a cold killer like Reinhard Heydrich. Actually he was in total awe of Hitler and remained a shadowy figure till his end when practical considerations of survival made him "betray" his Führer. That doesn't necessarily erase his guilt in the massacre of millions in Germany and Occupied Territories but it is interesting to note that he delegated the main responsibility of the Jewish Question to his subordinates in his Police Empire. While Himmler provided the physical means to achieve the Holocaust with his all-powerful SS and other Police apparatus of the Nazi State, it was the bloodthirsty Goebbels who actually conceived the idea of the extermination of Jewry and Hitler, who, being as rabidly anti-semetic, adopted this plan with fanatic zeal. Another interesting fact to note is that it is extremely plausible that Himmler actually knew a lot more about the assassination attempt of July 20th before its occurence and that the thought of succeeding Hitler as the next Leader that was vaguely forming in his mind at that time prevented him from putting it down before the assassination attempt was made. However, having been so servile to Hitler all his life, he couldn't bring himself to actually overthrow Hitler or at least help the conspirators gain control of Berlin on that crucial day.

It is quite evident that he remains one of the most intriguing characters of the Third Reich. That he had wierd, mythical fantasies and theories of race there is no doubt. Of his true state of mind there is much speculation. He definitely had racist ideas though he was not particularly anti-semetic. I think it is quite fair to say in the final analysis that Himmler remained essentially a lackey of Hitler most of his life. --Bigbossman 10:51, 29 Apr 2005 (UTC)

If Himmler was not anti-semitic as claimed in the above, what are we to make of his speeches to the SS larded with hate of the Jews, his enthusiastic visit to Auschwitz with special request to Hoess to see the killing process in person and so on? Seems to me like there are some apologetics going on here, the motive for which is hard to guess; could it be the usual one that it is so hard to comprehend this mass slaughter that we need to shy away from it mentally and from the level of anti-semitism that must have operated for these people and say that wasn't so? I suggest as a starting point reading Gitta Sereny's books.

The term Nazi should be avoided

Nazi is not a good term for describing a member or a follower of the ideology of the NSDAP (http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nationalsozialistische_Deutsche_Arbeiterpartei). The German wikipedia explains that in English speaking countries this term is even used in science. But that is just bad science then. There was no Nazi Party. Here is one example I think is totally wrong, the title: Early Nazi Party. There was no Nazi party! But there was the dreadful NSDAP. Himmler was not a member of the Nazi party. He was a member of the NSDAP. Or use the English translation: National Socialist German Workers Party I just saw that the same is also going on here and the term Nazi is explained: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NSDAP (English is a foreign language for me. So my comment has to be viewed with that in mind.)

Every American textbook, documentary, and general dicussion refers to the National Socialist German Workers Party as "Nazi Party". Nazi, itself is an abbreviation which has been around for over 70 years. So, it would not be practical to remove all refences to Nazi Party in this article nor would it be correct to say Himmler was a never a member of the Nazi Party. Thats what I think. -Husnock 22:53, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)

The word nazi is an insult. Thats not very well understood by most non-german speakers, but it is. Its like refering to early americans as 'yankees", or japanese during WWII as "japs". Anyhow its in standard use, so until that changes its presense in this article is according to policy. Its not like I'm politically correct anyways, but I know its rude, and I've seen germans wince at its usage to describe them during those years. Sam Spade 22:58, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)

P.S. I'd appreciate the anon weighing in @ Talk:Nazism and Talk:National Socialist German Workers Party. Cheers,

Sam Spade 23:02, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I'm not concerned about political correctness. A Nazi doesn't equal to a member of the NSDAP. If you consider the English Wikipedia definition of a Nazi (National socialist). A member of the NSDAP is a Nazi but prior to WWII there were leftist National socialists, who weren't member of the NSDAP and tried to form a coalition with the democratic socialists to form a coalition against the NSDAP. Today there are other National socialists groups around the world just google nazi (Worrysome). In the English Wikipedia in the Article about the NSDAP, there is a photograph of Adolf Hitlers membership card. It says: "Deutsche Arbeiter-Partei" or DAP which means German Workers Party. It was later renamed into NSDAP. There was simply no party called "Nazi". Titles like: early nazi party is just wrong. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Hitlermember.png

I'm convinced that Nazi is a popular term in English textbooks. Therefore it should be mentioned in the article, may be like that: "NSDAP (aka Nazi party)". If you are using the term Nazi for National Socialist. I would use National Socialist as it is defined by the English Wikipedia. Cheers P.S. Sorry I don't really understand what Mr Sam Spade has written in his post scriptum. Andreas Schmid

Er hat gesagt das dem Wort "Nazi" ist eine schlectes Wort das die Americaner uber dem NSDAP gesagt hat. Es ist nicht ein Wort im Deutschland und gefellen die Deutschen Person nicht. Auch es ist im all Amerikanishere Bucher uber dem Zweite Welkkreig also es ist auch im Wikipedia als dem Wort "Nazi" wiel wir sind eine Americanise Internet Platz. Hope that explains it in both languages! -Husnock 20:28, 26 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I was saying I would like you to say these things at Talk:Nazism and Talk:National Socialist German Workers Party, if you would like. Cheers,

Sam Spade 21:01, 26 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Thanks for the translation but I had only an understanding problem with the post scriptum = P.S. I'm convinced that in American literature the word Nazi is frequently used. And I think that is ok. It all depends on what Nazi means. And according to the English Wikipedia Nazi is the abrevation of National Socialism. So the Nazi party means the National Socialist party. Ok. Which one do you mean? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Democratic_Party_of_Germany_%28NPD%29 http://www.americannaziparty.com/ http://www.nazi.org/ Whith all due respect this is not "eine Americanise Internet Platz" this the Wikipedia the "free" Encyclopedia. If you mean by Americanise, United States then rethink that quickly. America is bigger then the USA. And America does not include a lot of English speaking countries! What about England, Scotland, Ireland, Australia, South Africa, New Zealand, Tasmania..... If one constantly uses the wrong word for something, it doesn't get right time after time: America, Nazi......

"American Internet Place" was the best description I could think of, simply meaning its a website whose master server is based in America. Remember, as English is not your 1st language neither is German mine! I image my grammer was pretty bad, too, but its the effort that counts. -Husnock 21:53, 26 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Agree with the Title - It is loaded terminology and not really defining.

Cover story in FT 196

The cover story of this month's Fortean Times (Issue 196) is titled Himmler's Fortress of Fear and covers the occult practice rumors of prominent Nazis. I thought it was an interesting read and might be worth noting here, or perhaps adding more to Mysticism in Nazi Germany instead, or both. — FJ | hello 22:40, 2 May 2005 (UTC)

• Here's the article online — FJ | hello 03:49, July 11, 2005 (UTC)

Colour photo?!?!

How come we have a colour photo of Heinrich Himmler? Surely colour photographs did not exist in 1945!! ==Rebroad 11:23, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Photography...

Color photography did exist at the time, although it was not widespread. (The 1939 film The Wizard of Oz was filmed in color.) However, I cannot vouch for the photograph's authenticity. —Wayward 23:34, Jun 15, 2005 (UTC)

There are numerous authentic color photos of all the Nazi leaders. While b/w photography was still mainstream there are both WWI color photos and films.

Death of Henrich Himmler

Is there any truth to the possibility that Himmler was assassinated by the British, as described in a node at Everything2? If so, the Wikipedia article ought to be revised, as it seems to indicate that suicide by cyanide capsule is surely the cause of death. - McCart42 (talk) July 5, 2005 00:26 (UTC)

• Whoops, didn't read through it completely, and jumped to conclusions. Still, maybe the recent forgeries should be discussed in the main article. - McCart42 (talk) July 5, 2005 00:29 (UTC)

Himmler documents

For the record, some original documents signed by Himmler are now posted at: Talk:Reichsführer-SS. They came about as a result of a discussion regarding the proper way Himmler's rank was spelled. I wanted to record the posting of the photos here, as well, for future reference. -Husnock 21:34, 9 July 2005 (UTC)

Middle name 'Luitpold'

A personal linage scroll which Himmler had made for himself, shows a very little known facet; his middle name was Luitpold. I uploaded the scroll in question to verify here; /media/wikipedia/en/2/26/HimmlerScroll.jpg (note; 10800x1296, 753 KB) Nagelfar 17:44, 13 November 2005 (UTC)

Conspiracy Theory

There has been, in my opinion, a very silly conspiracy theory put in the article that Heinrich Himmler was executed by British secret agents instead of committing suicide. The "source" is one book written by a British author. There are thousands of documents, testimonials, and archival records that state Heinrich Himmler died when he cracked a cyanide capsule in his teeth prior to medical exmaination by doctors and died within seconds. Hundreds ogf well respected historians, including John Keegan has backed up these facts. I have removed the theroy for now until a better source can be provided. -Husnock 16:50, 22 November 2005 (UTC)

• The anon user is continues to press this rather silly issue, putting in the article that this book about Himmler's murder is very well verified and accepted by main stream historians. I challenge that most strongly as the only place Ive been able to find this "new work" is on three websites and two of them were revisionism websites. See this one and this one for an example. I hate to bite the newbie and be the champion reverter, but the claims being made I feel are not based in fact. Opinions? -Husnock 23:58, 1 December 2005 (UTC)
  • Agreed. The "evidence" of a single controversial book is not enough to make claims of truth or that the commonly accepted theory will no longer be accepted. -- Necrothesp 11:01, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

The documents on which the book's claims are made have been shown to be forgeries (1945 documents printed on a laser printer...) as is reported here: http://travel.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2005/07/02/nhimmler02.xml Geoff97 09:45, 4 December 2005 (UTC)

• I think at this point we need a page protection. The page has been hit no less than 5 times by anon IP user acocunts, making statements that Himmler was killed by the British as this "convincing new work" is now accepted as fact. This article should be protected until whoever is trying to make these changes gives up and goes away. -Husnock 18:57, 4 December 2005 (UTC)
  • I have reported the situation here. -Husnock 21:58, 4 December 2005 (UTC)
    • No need to worry. I support these reverts. Heinrich Hoehne and others state the suicide by cyanide as a fact. Andries 22:25, 4 December 2005 (UTC)
      • I fully agree with Husnock. These claims have been totally refuted and are not worthy of an alternative theory status. Unfortunately, the Administrator has not accepted this. Geoff97 22:50, 4 December 2005 (UTC)
        • I've protected the page for now. Mark¹ 23:16, 4 December 2005 (UTC)

We at last got some kind of reply from the person who was making these changes. See my talk page for the comments. -Husnock 18:09, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

I've unprotected the page for now, hopefully any further issues can be resolved on the talk page. Enchanter 13:46, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

more made by those who worked under him

historians have argued Himmler was more made by those who worked under him rather than by his own designs. What does this mean? His image was made? His personality was made? His policies? Mark¹ 19:11, 4 December 2005 (UTC)

Though this sounds quite plausible this sentence needs to be attributed. Andries 22:26, 4 December 2005 (UTC)

Such a sentence needs real citations. It is however very revisionist even if it is a theory held by some modern historians, there is much clear evidence of everything Himmler himself put forward in the regime. Even things as minor as the idea for passing the first manditory bicycle reflector laws in history. The times I've heard this theory most usually are from crypto-neo-Nazis who have a fetish for the blond Reinhard Heydrich, and try to use some similarly Nazi racialist reasoning that someone of Himmlers 'type' could never have achieved the things that he did. Though we have many examples of Himmlers "type" of everything, even persona, such as Beria, who were of the same ruthless efficiency & keen reasoning for coming up with new ways of achieving a totalitarian policing system. Nagelfar 07:12, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

Himmler's personal beliefs

I think something should be added on Himmlers rather unusual personal beliefs for the time. In his own words would be best, but something should at least be stated about his anti-Christian leanings. I was considering adding something like this, but no area seems appropriate due to the time-line nature of this article, so the possibility of adding it to the point where the speech was made seems reasonable; something like this, under the 'consolidation of power' paragraph, my addition bolded;

"...considered a headquarters branch of the SS. Himmler at this time became more open with his unconventional views of race and culture, to the point of openly attacking Christianity, as stated in a May 22nd speech of the same year in Brocken, Germany that; "The German people, especially the youth, have learned once again to value people racially-they have once again turned away from Christian theories, from Christian teaching which has ruled Germany for more than a thousand years and caused the racial decay of the German Volk, and almost its racial death". Germany's secret police forces were also under Himmler's authority in the form of..."

This speech is verifiable as it is part of the U.S. National Archives (microfilm T175, roll 89, item EAP 161-b-12/81). If someone would find a more suitable place for an addition like this that would be preferable, as I don't want to make this seem to be some unilateral biased decision on my part. Nagelfar 00:39, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

How about creating (the beginnings of) a "Personal beliefs" section between the Peace negotiations, capture and death and References sections? Your excerpt is intriguing and, coupled with the source reference, should be a welcome addition to the article!  Best wishes, David Kernow 03:32, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

That would be a good start, and there are other items of interest for such a section as well, there are many citations that Himmler believed he was somehow the 'reincarnation' or spiritual successor of Henry the Fowler. I believe I have even read that other SS leaders of the time heard him claim something along such lines, though I'd have to find verifiable sources first. Nagelfar 18:58, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

Actually, I think I'll add this first to Nazi mysticism, but there should be a brief mention here since it has to do with Himmler, at least a link to Nazi mysticism. Nagelfar 16:44, 13 January 2006 (UTC)

Was Himmler anti-semitic?

The category classifies Himmler as anti-semitic, but I have the impression that Himmler executed the Holocaust out of a sense of duty, not because he hated Jews. This is very much unlike e.g. Goebbels and Hitler himself. Where are the references for the assertion that Himmler was anti-semitic? Andries 18:10, 13 January 2006 (UTC)

He seemed to have adopted words and executed speeches with an anti-semitic tone, but whether or not this was an example of his coming into line with party ideology, showing ideological unity within Nazism, I do not think anyone can say for certain. Though Himmler usually qualified any anti-semitic remark, at least to my knowledge, in his most famous speeches such as "...and each one has his decent Jew" etc. Though I do not believe Himmlers belief in the superiority of the idealized Germanic blond type was influenced by Nazism, rather, this seemed to be something he believed more truly in than other top Nazis and he was the main one to actually spread the concept within the regime. Though I don't think he contrasted this 'German' racial ideal to the jew so much as to the slav.

"Whether ten thousand Russian females fall down from exhaustion while digging an antitank ditch interests me only so far as the antitank ditch for Germany is finished. We shall never be rough and heartless when it is not necessary, that is clear. We Germans, who are the only people in the world who have a decent attitude toward animals, will also assume a decent attitude toward these human animals." -Himmler. Nagelfar 01:49, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

Himmler and war crimes

We have a user who is removing Himmler from the war criminal category stating he was "not convicted". Himmler was, in fact, convicted posthumously on dozens of war crimes charges, the most significant of which was being the source for the creation of teh Einsatzgruppen. it is true he was not listed at the main Nuermburg trial of major criminals, but his actiosn were brought up and condemend at the hundreds of smaller traials at Nuremburg as well as the dozens of local trials held by the French, Russians, Poles, and many other nations. There is more than enough evidence to say that Heinrich Himmler was a war criminal. As I said on Amon Goth, it is not POV, it is a legally documented fact by finding of several different courts. -Husnock 14:52, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

Birthplace of Alois Hitler?

In the article on Heinrich Himmler is the statement

....that Himmler escaped to Ebbw Vale, South Wales, birthplace of Alois Hitler.....

but the article on Alois does not mention anything like this and I find it extremely unlikely.

Has someone been messing with the page???

Colin