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Template:User -genderneutral

  • Undelete. I understood that the aim of the encyclopædia is to achieve NPOV articles. When editors understand each other’s POV’s we get a better encyclopædia. It’s very simple. It is hard to assume good faith when these deletions continue despite the overwhelming preponderance of opinion against them. User pages have always allowed statements of personal belief. User boxes simply do this a little more humorously. The should not be taken too seriously. If personal opinions are to be nuked en masse what is to be left on the user page? This user box even relates to Wikipedia and an editing philosophy used in its construction. The opposite view is allowed a user box, and no, I don’t want it deleted too. Avalon 10:17, 20 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Userboxes now at User:JDoorjam/Political parties

Now I know how a post-apocalyptic wikiworld would look like. Seriously, which wiki policy or guidelines prevents me from using a userbox to support Polish Beer-Lovers' Party? I say all those userboxes should be undeleted, from top to bottom. Comments?--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 04:50, 20 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

  • Kill them, kill them with fire, nuke them from orbit, salt the earth behind them. If you want bumper stickers, Cafepress is that-a-way, and if you want self-expression, MySpace is that-a-way. This place is supposed to be a collaborative writing project. Wanna-be revolutionaries/martyrs looking for a cause ought to go elsewhere or take up a hobby. --Calton | Talk 04:57, 20 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: I'd like to note that, in my humble opinion, your vote ("Kill them...") is an example of Wikihate. Please, don't hate. Thank you. Misza13 (Talk) 12:12, 20 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Send it to MFD - This is a list of userboxes NOT an actual userbox. MFD is the place for this.--God of War 05:06, 20 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

    • ... if it's all the same I'd like to keep my little reference page. I concur with Cyde on this one: POV userboxes really belong purely in user space. What we need is a policy that strongly says "template space is for encyclopedia templates," instead of a vague one that attacks people's POVs and doesn't really get the job done. JDoorjam Talk 05:22, 20 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
      • Sorry, just to clarify: I'm also fully in support of people expressing their PsOV on their user pages. It's the template space thing that I disagree with. I also don't think current policy justifies deletions of many of the boxes we're discussing. In other words, my opinion is so nuanced I'm next to useless in this discussion. JDoorjam Talk 05:53, 20 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
        • No, you're moderate and thinking with a clear head. You should defenitely be contributing to this discussion. And although I'm strongly oppossed to what's going on, I don't mind people who support just subsetting everything and deleting templates, the only problem is the codes are gone or hard to find and there is no way to get them back without undeleting them. Most people had no idea that they should have been subsetting their templates and now they are in between a rock and a hard place. The Ungovernable Force 06:16, 20 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Undelete Lawful opinions should be expressed. Every editor has a POV. The task of keeping it out of the encyclopaedia will be assisted by knowing what a particular editor's POV is. You do not make company directors hide their other interests so that there can never be a charge of conflict of interest, you make them divulge their other interests. Also, there needs to be a small area, out of the encyclopaedia where editors can let their hair down a little. Avalon 05:51, 20 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep deleted (and delete the ones that remain) to avoid the sort of witch-hunts which Avalon seems to want. Editors' political opinions have no place anywhere on Wikipedia. Physchim62 (talk) 06:52, 20 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Undelete - people are going to have opinions. — CJewell (talk to me) 10:17, 20 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep deleted does nothing to support NPOV.--MONGO 10:27, 20 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I repeat what Avalon already said. I have a POV. You have a POV. If our user pages openly declare our various POVs, it's easier for everyone to collaboratively police each other. If an avowed vegan starts editing articles on the health benefits on meat, I'll know to check their sources as they're biased. If an avowed anti-communist like me starts editing articles on communist wrongdoings, you'll know to check my sources as I'm biased. Pretending we're all paragons of neutrality is counter-productive to the neutrality of Wikipedia. As to "witch-hunts", it's very simple to find out a person's biases just by spending 10 minutes looking at their edit history. I for one prefer to wear them on my sleeve so you won't have to bother. Undelete all Unigolyn 13:15, 20 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Template:User MusicBrainz

This user is a MusicBrainz moderator.

Deleted by user: BorgHunter and user:Cyde out of process under false allegations. See also: MusicBrainz and Wikipedia:WikiProject MusicBrainz. Dread Lord CyberSkull ✎☠ 04:12, 20 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

  • This is no surprise here, but Keep deleted. This is an unnecessary commercial userbox template that was subst'ed onto all relevant user pages and deleted. Hardly out of process. Nobody's stopping you from using this userbox; you just need to copy over the code. The point is that the current state of userboxes is an intolerable situation and changes must be made. The first is to reduce the number of userboxes by subst'ing and deleting them. Need I remind you what the Template: namespace is for. The userboxes really should never have been in it in the first place. PS you forget to call BorgHunter a dick. --Cyde Weys 04:14, 20 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    • Once again, you somehow failed to make any reference to any actual policy for the deletion of templates. Can someone please reproduce this thing so we know what was deleted? JDoorjam Talk 04:23, 20 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
      • I swear to the Gods, if we have to bring every single fracking deleted userbox template to DRV we are going to waste hundreds of man-years. Did you know there are already over 6,000 of these things?! I'm trying to fix the damn situation. I subst'ed that box into user pages on every occurrence. --Cyde Weys 04:24, 20 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
        • We're all trying to fix the situation. Clearly, however, given that the number of userboxes has doubled since New Year's, the current "trouble with tribbles" attempts to eradicate them aren't really working out. We need to call for a more exacting policy so that it's completely unambiguous which user boxes should stay, and which should go, because in the meantime, we get stuck arguing over a few lines of code that maybe should get deleted in principle but the deletion of which is not clearly supported in actual policy. (Nice battlestar galactica ref, btw.) JDoorjam Talk 04:28, 20 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
        • Yet DRV is the proper way to do it whether it takes many man-years or not. If you think it should be different then you need to work on getting the policy changed. Deleting templates without discussion and proper procedure is going to get your user account taken to arbitration. — Mperry 06:11, 20 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    • Undelete: There is no need to be rude. Please read the MusicBrainz article. It is a non-commercial service with it's data either in the public domain or under the EFF Open Audio License. Below is a copy. Dread Lord CyberSkull ✎☠ 04:35, 20 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    • How is a userbox about a non-commercial, non-profit music database considered commercial? — Mperry 06:07, 20 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Please see User:Pathoschild/Projects/Userboxes, it's the way out of this mess. We need to start subst'ing in templates, deleting the templates, and replacing them with userbox code libraries. It's the only solution everyone is going to agree on. You still get exactly the same effect on your userpage, only it doesn't use anything in the template namespace and the Whatlinkshere functionality cannot be abused for vote recruiting. It's the perfect solution. --Cyde Weys 05:02, 20 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

George W. Bush Templates

The discussion for these templates were all blanked by User:MarkSweep. He has threatened to ban all users attempting to revert the blanking of this DRV discussion. With the approval of administrator Guanaco at User_talk:Guanaco#GWB. I am relisting these discussions on DRV again.--God of War 23:38, 19 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Template:User PresidentBush

see Wikipedia:Templates_for_deletion/Log/2006_February_16#Template:User_PresidentBush. 5-5 is hardly a consensus or a mandate to delete. also, I thought TfD was allowed 7 days, this was nominated on the 16th, thats 24hrs at most...infact, I have yet to see a convincing consensus for deletion on any of the Bush userboxes. Mike McGregor (Can) 02:04, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

Template:User GWB2

See the TFD here Wikipedia:Templates_for_deletion/Log/2006_February_9#Template:User_GWB2. Even though there was a consensus to keep, someone has deleted the history then re-created this as re-direct to a far less clever userbox that has since been speedily deleted.--God of War 20:22, 12 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

  • Very well-put. Deleting expressions of an opinion, POV, view, or bias does not make it go away, it just makes it fester; the slant will still have its influence on the user's actions, it'll just be hidden and thus cause more misunderstandings, errors and conflicts. Wikipedia must demonstrate an open and tolerant atmosphere where Wikipedians are encouraged to freely state their views on their userpages, and strongly discouraged from trying to enforce those views on articlespace (the two are not contradictory, as is often implied in anti-userbox sentiment, but are quite compatible). People assume that if we let Wikipedians say what they think in brightly-colored boxes on their userpages, they'll get out of hand and start organizing into POV-pushing factions and trying to warp the encyclopedia to fit their own views—but the opposite is really the case for just about any user who isn't a troll or vandal already: letting people self-express and have their little games with these trivial, silly little boxes is a great way for them to get it out of their system, and clearly seeing through userboxes how many intelligent, capable, likable editors out there differ from your views in numerous areas demonstrates the wonderfully diverse environment, which we should encourage, not stiel, among our users, all while being absolutely uncompromising in our protection of articles from OR and POV (which is aided by userboxes, in that it gets it all out in the open). Good god, that was a long sentence. Anyway, strong undelete and relist. No reason not to let this go through TfD even if there are people who think it should be deleted; the T1 entry for speedy deletion specifically states that only "clearly inflammatory and divisive" templates may be speedied (if this were clearly both inflammatory and divisive, we wouldn't be having an argument like this! since the speedy's disputed, a full TfD discussion is merited), and it certainly doesn't encourage speedying them against consensus! (And Jimbo himself said that this new deletion criteron was chiefly for use on any new, clearly inflammatory templates that sprung up, not for anti-userbox editors to use as an excuse to scourge any old, well-established templates they found distasteful!) -Silence 04:10, 14 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Endorse closure and keep deleted. If you want your purported biases to be visible, type them out. It is not difficult. Divisive trolling. Proto||type 16:23, 14 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep deleted Per above. Banez 17:43, 14 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Sigh... keep deleted. This is one of my favorite of the cheeky userboxes, too. For me this lands in the grey zone where it’s too divisive and inflammatory to be used as a template, but may or may not be inappropriate as a non-template userbox. Tony is right, although probably too biting, in his comments: if a user feels so strongly about this that they want to put the raw code into their user profile, and if they can make a good argument that listing it there helps other users understand the first user’s inherent POVs, then I suppose it might be ok there (or, at the very least, that’s an argument for a different day), but the userbox templates make it too easy to say potentially offensive things in the user space without putting any thought into the expression. I really don’t like is that this quite obviously divisive userbox is so easy to put in to a user page without even thinking about it, or going through any sort of process. I almost wish I was on one polar end or another on this issue, but unfortunately I’m somewhere in the middle, and my take is that this template simply makes it too easy to say something loud without thinking about what it is, exactly, that you’re expressing. I agree with User:Silence: suppression of personal opinions is unhealthy and will ultimately be counter-productive. However, while a 1984-style Wiki control regime would be terrible, infeasible, and, well, silly, some control over divisiveness ought to be exerted, especially in the template space, where it's more easily thoughtlessly distributed. I’ve argued before that it’s inconsistent to argue against a userbox when you wouldn’t argue against a user expressing that same sentiment in raw text in their userbox, but now I’ll point out the corollary that implies: is a user had a screed in their user space about how they thought Bush’s changes to the Constitution ought to be undone, I would at the very least have some concern about the NPOV abilities of that editor (especially as, despite the assertions of the userbox, Bush hasn’t made any changes to the Constitution). I also really really really hate invoking The Almighty Jimbo, but the Big J is right: it’s best to leave one’s POV at the door when one comes to edit Wikipedia, and this box just… tracks too much POV mud in from outside, IMHO. JDoorjam Talk 18:15, 14 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Undelete and block the inflammatory and divisive admins. --Revolución (talk) 18:35, 15 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Undelete This userbox is neither divisive nor inflammatory. It was going through a process which the antiuserboxtistas were going to loose. --Dragon695 06:07, 16 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep Deleted - This whole mess is getting ridiculous. Now we're wasting lots of people's time with unnecessary deletion reviews. --Cyde Weys 16:48, 17 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Undelete. Unilateral behaviour by admins is unacceptable. --Victim of signature fascism | There is no cabal 00:31, 20 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Undelete and agree with -Ril- MiraLuka 03:04, 20 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Undelete This userbox is neither inflammatory nor divisive. The continued roguish behavior by anti-userbox honcho admins is both divisive and inflammatory. --Daniel 03:31, 20 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Undelete - people are going to have opinions. — CJewell (talk to me) 10:17, 20 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep deleted violates NPOV.--MONGO 10:32, 20 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep deleted divisive. David | Talk 10:47, 20 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep deleted. Snide comment about "edits to the constitution" in the userbox makes it a T1 candidate. Sjakkalle (Check!) 12:43, 20 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Template:User atheist

Content was: This user is an atheist.

Speedy-deleted by User:Phroziac at 02:25 on February 19 with the explanation "WP:NOT a soapbox", but WP:NOT is not mentioned anywhere on Wikipedia:Criteria for speedy deletion as a valid justification for speedying. If someone objects to this template, it can certainly be listed on TfD, but I honestly don't understand why this was out-of-process speedy-deleted without even a word of discussion, especially when {{user atheism}} (a much, much less popular variant), {{user theist}}, and {{user theist2}} were ignored.

Note that this template has subsequently been recreated (probably due to confusion over why there was a missing template on so many userpages—nearly 250 users have this template on their userpage!) by User:Bhumiya. However, the recreation (in addition to being out-of-process) did not restore any of the original's edit history, replaced the color scheme and layout with a more generic one, and replaced the text "ath" (if I remember correctly) with an image which has proven offensive to some atheists. So, the current situation is not a satisfactory compromise; I recommend undeleting this, unless there is some pressing or dire reason that this particular template is unacceptable. Even if you think all userboxes, or all userboxes with POVs, should be deleted, arbitrarily picking and choosing random ones like this will only cause unrest and accusations of bigotry, which I'm sure isn't the intent here. -Silence 23:25, 19 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Note that this template has been redeleted by User:Improv. This seems reasonable to me. Once the discussion is over, if there is consensus to undelete, it can be undeleted. -Silence 23:42, 19 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
And redeleted again. Voting cannot override the T1 criterion that Jimbo has imposed. Sorry. You can vote here, but you're wasting your time. --Improv 23:45, 19 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
We are not voting about whether the T1 criterion can be overridden; we are voting on whether or not it applies to this specific template. Just because a person says T1 holds here doesn't make it so; consensus exists not to override policy, but to interpret it. So, let's look at T1 and whether it applies to this specific template.
T1 states that "templates that are polemical or inflammatory" can be speedy-deleted. Polemical means "of or relating to a controversy, argument, or refutation", from the noun polemic, which means "a controversial argument, especially one refuting or attacking a specific opinion or doctrine". Atheism is a belief, not an argument, and this template does not argue for ahteism or serve as a "bumper sticker", but merely states what the user self-identifies as. Most atheists on Wikipedia define it as merely "lack of theism", making it no more "polemic" than "This user is homosexual", "This user is a vegetarian" or "This user is a Protestant Christian"; it's just a harmless, innocuous statement about the user. And to an even greater extent, inflammatory certainly doesn't apply here; it is hardly intended to cause anger, animosity or indignation. Also, of course, T1 was never mentioned when this template was speedied, only WP:NOT; but that's nitpicking, I understand your reason for voting "delete". And vehemently disagree with it. -Silence 00:05, 20 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Silence, it is inappropriate to blanket every possible application of a policy one disagrees with with an attempt to interpret it into nothingness. That's what I see here. --Improv 00:13, 20 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Um, I'm afraid I don't understand. Where did my interpretation differ from reality, and where did I attempt to render T1 meaningless or useless? T1 is what it says it is: a way to speedy-delete templates that are clearly intended to cause disruption, offense, anger, hatred, etc. This applies to countless potential templates, including "this user hates theists", "this user is an atheist because theists kill babies", "this user is better than theists", etc. It was created to quickly and easily deal with blatantly offensive templates, and Jimbo was quite clear on the matter that he did not want T1 to lead to a cull of already-existing userboxes, which could only cause more controversy, ill will, and feuding. He was also very deliberate in which words he chose: first "divisive and inflammatory", then "polemic and inflammatory". If he wanted all religious, philosophical, spiritual, etc. userboxes speedy-deleted immediately, why would he choose that wording? Because that's not what he wanted. The creators of T1 did not say "All userboxes that express POVs", nor "All religious or political userboxes", nor "All userboxes any admin dislikes"; that was a deliberate and meaningful decision which you are remarkably interested in ignoring because it conflicts with your own admitted, pre-set bias against all userboxes. Just because you want all userboxes gone doesn't mean that this is currently encouraged (or even permitted) by Wikipedia's policies. Nor is this the proper place to discuss revising Wikipedia's speedy-deletion criteria to include simple statements of religious or philosophical belief; go to Wikipedia talk:Criteria for speedy deletion for that. I'm sorry, but T1 does not apply to this template. It's as simple as that. I'm not arguing against T1, I'm arguing for interpreting it accurately and neutrally rather than abusing it to further an agenda to mass-delete these silly little boxes. Whether your opinion is justified or not (and it doesn't seem justified to me at the moment), it's not policy, and cannot be implemented as though it were. -Silence 00:35, 20 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Endorse deletion. Divisive, T1. No matter what side of the fence these things come from, they hurt the project. --Improv 23:37, 19 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Undelete unless the "This user is a Christian/Jew/Muslin/etc" ones are to be deleted too. And if they are, better justification needs to be made than "T1". This is a matter of interpretation of the law, which is best not done by those who enforce it. -R. fiend 23:55, 19 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    • I am keen to delete those too. Nominate them! Look, the T1 criterion means *something*. You may not like it, but it is a clear (and IMO good) mandate from above. Don't twist Jimbo's words, and don't dance around attempting to nullify them. We have a clear mandate to delete things like this. If you don't like it, take it up with Jimbo. If he goes the other way on this, then I'll follow, of course. --Improv 23:57, 19 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
      • Unacceptable. You deleted the atheist template, you should have deleted the other religious templates simultaneously. Undelete. TKarrde 23:58, 19 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
      • TKarrde is right. If they qualify for T1, they don't need to be nominated; you can delete them now. The problem is figuring out if they do qualify. "Polemical or inflammatory" (the current wording of CSD: T1) is about as vague as you can get. I honestly don't much care about userboxes, I just think they should be treated as evenly as possible. If that means none that disparage their subject, fine. If that means anything goes (exluding personal attacks, slander, etc) fine. If that means no userboxes at all, then I can live with that. I just don't like the artbitrary deletion policy we have now. I wrote about it on a subpage of mine. Sanity neds to be restored. If I hadn't moved all these to a separate page they would have completely swamped DRV. -R. fiend 00:05, 20 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
        • They do not qualify for T1, so the "all or nothing" discussion is moot. For now, it's got to be nothing. The religious templates can certainly be nominated on WP:TfD if people feel that they're harmful, but they don't qualify for speedying. -Silence 00:35, 20 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Original deletion justified under WP:NOT? Apparently not, if you click the link. WP:NOT refers to articles, not user pages or userboxes. Articles by definition must have a NPOV. User profiles by definition cannot possibly have a NPOV, or they'd all be the exact same. 1984, anyone? TKarrde 00:06, 20 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

          • Speedy deleting the christian/muslim/jew templates would merely be disrupting wikipedia to make a point, which is clearly unacceptable. As was deleting this userbox. Undelete, Wikipedia not a Soapbox is not a reason to speedy undelete a userbox. Let's even give the person the benefit of the doubt and say they meant to use CSD T1, it still is not divisive to any reasonable editor in my opinion. Anyone who is so upset by it that they can't work with a user shouldn't be editing here anyway. The Ungovernable Force 07:45, 20 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Your userpage is not your property, nor is this a public/democratic forum. Would you call your workplace 1984-land if they asked you to take down some offensive things from your cubicle walls? We're here for the project, not the self-expression and bumper stickers. --Improv 00:10, 20 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Red herring. You still haven't addressed the fact that WP:NOT dictates how articles should be written and not userboxes. And for the record, we get paid to work. I come here and invest my free time and effort out of generosity ;) That should be worth being able to have my own userboxes (which most people will never see anyway). While I'm busy refuting red herrings, User: Atheist is only offensive if you choose to take it that way. Offensiveness is relative, and general consensus is usually the ONLY benchmark that can be used to determine if something is "generally offensive", as it can never be determined whether something is "absolutely offensive". General consensus in this case, I'd wager, would be that "This user is an atheist" is inoffensive and falls under self-expression. It certainly doesn't attack anyone. TKarrde 00:16, 20 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Undelete. If you deleted the atheist template, you should have deleted the other religious templates simultaneously. helohe (talk) 00:13, 20 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

    • Do that, and I'll back you up. I am convinced that T1 is being intentionally perverted by people who don't like it, and collectively we're working to zap them all thanks to Jimbo's new criterion. It's going to happen bit-by-bit. Why don't you help me do it more evenly? --Improv 00:20, 20 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Statement of one's religion, or lack thereof, is not polemical. No one is being attacked here. The box makes a statement about the user which is not true of all users, yes, but that makes the box as divisive as "This user speaks fluent English". This box doesn't say "Christians suck." This box doesn't say "I hate Muslims." This doesn't even say "God wears a funny hat," which, for the record, I'm not sure I'd have a problem with. It's absolutely not a soapbox, which, as has already been said, wouldn't matter anyway. I think this is pretty clearly a misinterpretation of policy. JDoorjam Talk 00:14, 20 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    • Many (most) workplaces in the real world would ask people to take almost all these userboxes off of their cubicle or office walls/doors. Do you understand why? Think about it. --Improv 00:20, 20 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Wikipedia.com is not a workplace. It is a website where users come to donate their time and effort (WITHOUT COMPENSATION) to create an encyclopedia, something that is normally created by paid employees of a company. I think users deserve a little freedom of self-expression for their trouble. This whole affair seems like Jimbo is trying to thank us with a swift kick in the teeth ;) After all, his website wouldn't exist without US, the users. TKarrde 00:25, 20 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
If you volunteer in a shelter, you will find that your efforts to express yourself, e.g. preaching politics or faith or similar to other volunteers or clients, especially if you think you "deserve it", will be met with cold hostility. If you want to donate your time to make something great, that's wonderful! Don't think it's a transaction you can cash in on though, or that it gives you a license to act as you want. --Improv 00:32, 20 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
You make a heckuva devil's advocate, Improv :P Consider this: Userboxes are not analogous to preaching to the homeless in a shelter where you donate your time. Userboxes are analogous to wearing a T-shirt, or even carrying a card in your wallet, since Userboxes aren't immediately visible to the community (a member has to actually visit your user page to see them). If userboxes appeared next to your username whenever you edited or created an article, that'd be different. Userboxes aren't broadcast, like preaching in a public place in the real world. Userboxes are compartmentalized and have to be deliberately accessed in order to be viewed. TKarrde 00:36, 20 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
And even that's understating the difference between the (false) analogy and this situation, because this template isn't preaching or endorsing a certain viewpoint, anymore than "this user is heterosexual" is critical of non-heterosexuals or "this user has red hair" would be offensive to non-red-haired people. It's a self-identification template to help express a user's POVs (helping avoid confusion and disputes by airing all this stuff out in the open) and interests (helping users work together on articles relevant to their beliefs and perspective). The "card in a wallet" is the best comparison, though I don't see why any comparisons are relevant here—this templat does does not qualify for speedy-deletion because it is neither polemical nor inflammatory. Not believing in a god is really not a big deal. -Silence 00:54, 20 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
It is like a mix of cubicle walls and handing out pamphlets while donating time at a shelter. The content of your userpage is not like your house (if it were, we wouldn't even bother providing space for it), rather, it's to help clarify what you do on the project and serve other purposes, within certain bounds. I see a lot of people upset here, and I'm not happy that this needs to happen, but what I, and I believe Jimbo and a number of other people see here is that the community is being hurt and will continue to be hurt by userboxes. The existing situation cannot continue to exist -- it must be remedied. Many other language wikipediae get along fine with a complete or partial ban on userboxen -- contrary to what some people say, the project does not disappear as people leave in droves. In the long run, I think we'll all see that this was for the best. If people want to express themselves freely outside of the bounds of Wikipedia, that is a great thing. I do it, many others do it. Some things are simply inappropriate here, and the new speedy criterion was added to let us delete things like this. If you don't like it, take it up with Jimbo, or you may file a request for arbitration on me (or perhaps join me with Tony's?). I am willing at this point to stand up and follow what I think is both necessary for the community and endorsed by Jimbo. If he tells me I am wrong, or if Arbcom does, I will stop. I believe though that we have all heard what Jimbo has said though, and that much of this discussion is from people who neither understand what strife can do to a workplace or people who think that userpages are property and wikipedia is a democracy. If I find out that I am wrong about Jimbo's intention, then I will apologise for being too bold. This is, in my current judgement, a case of people not understanding the big picture of how people relate to each other, however. I ask of all of you to please try to understand my perspective, and to think about all the things Jimbo has said about it. I am willing to discuss this at length with any of you in any forum you want, and of course, I won't be upset or take it personally if you want to take this to Jimbo or arbitration. --Improv 03:57, 20 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • RECAP: Opposition to the deleting of the atheist userbox claim that it doesn't hurt anyone, while proponents of it remind everyone that this is Jimbo's decision, not theirs. Which is true. Anything else? TKarrde 04:11, 20 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    • Eh, that's not quite accurate: Jimbo's only actual policy decision was to create a criterion for speedy deletion that targeted inflammatory and divisive userboxes. So you missed "there is no consensus as to what the current policy on deleting userboxes is, or what it is Jimbo decided, except that it has something to do with userboxes and maintaining a sense of community." The important thing is that opposition to the deleting of the atheist userbox claim that it doesn't hurt anyone and is therefore not covered by this policy. JDoorjam Talk 04:20, 20 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Speedy undelete. Whoever deleted this one, should really think twice before clicking delete again, sheez.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 04:43, 20 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Kill it with fire If you want bumper stickers, Cafepress is that-a-way, and if you want self-expression, MySpace is that-a-way. This place is supposed to be a collaborative writing project. --Calton | Talk 04:49, 20 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Undelete unless you drop all religious userboxes. It is unquestionably discriminatory to consider atheism an attack on religion. It is a faith unto itself, just as is being Hindu or Lutheran. Unless you are a hypocrite of the highest caliber, atheism must be restored as a userbox or the others must go. Cornell Rockey
Cornell, I think you're confusing atheism with antitheism. Atheism is not a faith, it is the absence of faith. TKarrde 05:08, 20 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

User:Cjmarsicano/UDUIW

This user is a member of Users in Defense of Userboxes and Individuality on Wikipedia.


Adds users to Category:Users in Defense of Userboxes and Individuality on Wikipedia (UDUIW)

Speedied under T1 by Johnleemk, but this is not actually a template. —Guanaco 23:19, 19 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

*Undelete - Speedy deletion is disruptive and bad for the wikipedia community. Please use TFD from now on.--God of War 00:21, 20 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Template:User God

Content was: This user is God.

Speedied by Physchim62 as empty template; content was: {{db-meta|abusive userbox, used to divide community}}{{{category|Category:Candidates for speedy deletion}}}'.

I don't think the userbox was that bad, but I would like someone to explain to an HTML-illiterlate(namely me!) about what mumbo jumbo above means. --D-Day Somebody talk to me. Please somebody! Anybody! 17:22, 19 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

  • Keep Deleted - This kind of silly, unencyclopedic content does not belong in main template space. It should be restricted solely to userspace, and Template: is not in userspace! --Cyde Weys 17:31, 19 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Since when does "silly" count as criteria for template/userbox deletion? --D-Day Somebody talk to me. Please somebody! Anybody! 17:34, 19 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Content being unencyclopedic in template space is not a criterion for deletion. Should it be? That's a different discussion. Under current policy, there is no CSD that says unencyclopedic content gets the axe. JDoorjam Talk 23:47, 19 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Template:User Doom Box

Content was:

We're Doomed!

This user supports userboxes. They probably just need to get outside more often,. You can help save Wikipedia by slapping this user silly, then blocking them forever..

This was a rather humorous template intended to poke fun at both sides of the userbox debate. It was deleted today by Dmcdevit because "this is unnecessarily confrontational, and designed only to inflame the current userbox struggle" Anyone who saw this knows that it was not confrontational. --D-Day Somebody talk to me. Please somebody! Anybody! 14:49, 19 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

  • Keep Deleted perhaps the ONLY template on here that DOES qualify as 'inflammatory or polemical' Cynical 15:15, 19 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Jokes are by nature hard to judge. Since I'm not convinced that is polemical (rather satire) or inflammatory (ever heard of irony and sense of humor?), so I give it a weak undelete. Once the userbox-storm is over and these kind of boxes become redundant I'll probably vote delete and move to BJAODN but only in a proper TfD debate. Misza13 (Talk) 15:45, 19 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Undelete and list at TfD. Once it's at TfD, I'll vote "delete", but I'm not so impatient or unwliling to hear the other side's arguments that I feel this template shouldn't be given a full TfD discussion. It's complex and borderline enough that whether it falls under T1 can certainly be disputed, unlike, say, a template which says "I hate Mexicans"—that's the sort of template T1 was really made for! I understand why the admin speedy-deleted this, but I believe this is an excessively loose, undisciplined interpretation of T1. -Silence 16:04, 19 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • undelete and send to TfD. This is the most borderline template I've seen here, but because it is borderline and the intention is clearly humour it needs to be at TfD, not speedy. Once it is listed at TfD then I will almost certainly vote delete, and like Misza13 I think it merits a spot in BJAODN. Thryduulf 16:28, 19 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep Deleted - This kind of silly, unencyclopedic content does not belong in main template space. It should be restricted solely to userspace, and Template: is not in userspace! --Cyde Weys 17:04, 19 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for your comment. However, as you are undoubtedly aware of, this is not TfD where such issues ("silliness") may be discussed. This is DRV where we discuss the appropriateness (or its lack) of speedy deletions. Misza13 (Talk) 17:13, 19 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Would you please stop spamming everything I'm saying with your reply? Your attempt to have my say discounted for some incorrect reason is both transparent and irritating. And I do think the speedy deletions were correct. Everything that doesn't belong in main templatespace should be deleted, the sooner the better. --Cyde Weys 17:30, 19 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    • I understand your view, but the only thing that deletion review can take into account is: "Was the deletion proper?". In the case of speedy deletion this means "Did any speedy deletion criteria apply?". There is currently no speedy deletion criteria that templates that do not relate to articles can been speedy deleted, so whether they do or do not is irrelevant to this page as I and others keep telling you. If you want all non-article related templates to be deleted then I suggest you formulate a proposal to this effect and then advertise it on centralised discussions to see if there is community consensus regarding this. Thryduulf 17:39, 19 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
      • I don't like the implications that only people who oppose a userbox's deletion can have their say here. Nobody is attacking the unsubstantive "Keep" votes around here. At least I'm trying to explain my reasoning. And by the way, divisive/inflammatory is a speedy deletion criteria and this userbox falls under that as well. --Cyde Weys 18:22, 19 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Not to sound rude, but I've spent plenty of time contributing to the encyclopedia. Including during the userbox debate. Don't hate. --D-Day Somebody talk to me. Please somebody! Anybody! 13:46, 20 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Template:User Anarchist2

Content was: This user thinks that an Anarchy makes an easy target for invasion.

reason for deletion given was: actually no reason was given. I guess we don't deserve an expanation. deleted by user:Physchim62 Mike McGregor (Can) 13:24, 19 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for your comment. However, as you are undoubtedly aware of, this is not TfD where such issues ("silliness") may be discussed. This is DRV where we discuss the appropriateness (or its lack) of speedy deletions. Misza13 (Talk) 17:13, 19 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Template:User Unamerican

Content was: U.S. flag upside down and the text This user is Un-American.

reason given for deletion was "t1" by User:Physchim62. Mike McGregor (Can) 13:18, 19 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for your comment. However, as you are undoubtedly aware of, this is not TfD where such issues ("silliness") may be discussed. This is DRV where we discuss the appropriateness (or its lack) of speedy deletions. Misza13 (Talk) 17:13, 19 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

ERIC§Damagesarchive 00:42, 20 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

    • I'm sorry, but considering your earlier free speech rant I find that a sad reason to keep deleted. I defended your ideas, even though I found them sick (I am seriously offended when I see non-desecrated flags considering this country's long history of genocide and imperialism in the name of "freedom"). Free speech goes both ways, and while I will not withdraw my support of undeletion for the userboxes you want undeleted, (such as republican and troops), I do hope you will consider withdrawing this vote to keep deleted. The Ungovernable Force 06:39, 20 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep deleted. This is an example of something that clearly is divisive, IMO. It's also a misapplication: an upside-down American flag (or any flag) is a sign of distress, not a sign of un-Americanism. But that's beside the point. I think there are a good number of boxes that are mis-tagged T1, but I think it's pretty clear that this box is divisive. JDoorjam Talk 00:57, 20 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Undelete as above. MiraLuka 02:37, 20 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Undelete This userbox is neither inflammatory nor divisive. The continued roguish behavior by anti-userbox admin honchos is both divisive and inflammatory. --Daniel 03:34, 20 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Undelete Although I understand the possibly divisive nature of this userbox, I think that if we are going to support any userboxes, we should support just about all userboxes. Everything can be divisive to the wrong people (even upright american flags), and we should respect minority views here and not just delete them because a few people cannot control their emotions enough to work with users they disagree with politically. The Ungovernable Force 06:39, 20 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep deleted use a MOAB on this.--MONGO 10:42, 20 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Template:User death-stop

Why was this one deleted, stating that you do not agree with the death penalty in any circumstance does not seem to agree with the given reason "It is a template that is polemical or inflammatory". If you think so then I would say almost all userboxes are! Arnoutf 17:33, 18 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

If that's really what you think - file a case with Arbcom. Otherwise stop making idle threats. --Doc ask? 21:10, 18 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for your comment. However, as you are undoubtedly aware of, this is not TfD where such issues ("silliness") may be discussed. This is DRV where we discuss the appropriateness (or its lack) of speedy deletions. Misza13 (Talk) 17:13, 19 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Template:User troops

This userbox was deleted by Physchim62 without discussion. Why? All it said was "this user supports the troops". What's wrong with that? I love my country and I especially love the people who are willing to, and all too frequently do, die for it. Why can't I say that in a userbox? I see nothing at all negative about this userbox and I want it back. -- §HurricaneERIC§Damagesarchive 05:06, 19 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for your comment. However, as you are undoubtedly aware of, this is not TfD where such issues ("silliness") may be discussed. This is DRV where we discuss the appropriateness (or its lack) of speedy deletions. Misza13 (Talk) 17:13, 19 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Template:User Yes Animal Testing

Content was: This user supports animal testing. Unless we delete all the dozen all so 'this user opposes animal testing', I think this should be restored. Deletion reason was (guess...) T1. Your comments?--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 00:47, 19 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Sigh. Undelete - this is not harmful to Wikipedia, devisive, pollemic, etc. TFD is the apropriate course of action not speedy deletion. Thryduulf 01:00, 19 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Template:User liberation wars

Content was: This user supports wars of liberation, and is equally opposed to pacifism, nationalism, imperialism, fascism, racism, and theocracy. Deleted beacuse content was: '{{db-divisive}}. Doesn't look like valid delete reason to me. What do you think?--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 00:46, 19 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Template:User independent Tibet

Deleted because per CSD T1 - Jimbo's new rule. Content was: suports independence for Tibet or something similar (can't remember without undeleting it). I disagree it falls under T1. What do you think? --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 00:27, 19 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Good point. Misza13 (Talk) 10:20, 19 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I'm afraid many people wrongly call the diversity of users a "division". For my understanding, a divisive template would be something along the lines of "This user hates/dislikes/opposes <insert group here> wikipedians." - though not quite that - I can't really find a good example. Misza13 (Talk) 10:20, 19 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Perhaps that's a sign that you're not interpreting "divisive" correctly. That's the impression I get -- I think that most of the people voting to undelete here are enormously dissatisfied that Jimbo added the new deletion criterion, and so they want to render it meaningless by finding the most useless interpretation of it they can possibly find. I find that disappointing. --Improv 23:34, 19 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia:Userboxes/Regional_Politics

This time a massive deletion effort by (what seems) User:Physchim62. Just follow the above link and see for yourself. The deleting admins don't even care about the red links they create. Also see how selective he was - some deleted and some (of similar nature) still (yet?) alive. A few random checks show that most were removed either with the comment (t1) or content was: {{db-divisive}}..., so he either decided by himself or (in my opinion) wrongly agreed with some non-admin's {{db-divisive}} tag. Obviously someone may argue that this is not a proper undeletion nomination, but it would just be tedious as in the case of Political Parties UserBoxes below. Misza13 (Talk) 23:42, 18 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

:-)     IS Guðsþegn – UTCE – 01:14, 19 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Template:User All Drugs

  • 21:00, 18 February 2006 Doc glasgow deleted this. Comment: (T1 G4). Obviously, it is not (T1 G4).

Content was: This user supports the legalization of all drugs for adults.

What was the text of this userbox? --D-Day Somebody talk to me. Please somebody! Anybody! 21:18, 18 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
"This user supports the legalization of all drugs" or something to that extent. Also Speedy undelete. Fightindaman 21:20, 18 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
If I remember correctly then: "This user is for the legalisation of all drugs for personal use." helohe (talk) 21:24, 18 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Please do not make uncivil and unfounded accusations. DocGlasgow has not vandalized anything (see my below comment under the "inclusionist and deletionist" userbox review); he has interpreted policy in a way that you disagree with, in an attempt to help Wikipedia (as he sees it). If that attempt has failed, it is because he misinterpreted policy, misunderstood the potential value or harm of certain userboxes, and/or was a bit too overzealous and poorly-timed with his deletions, perhaps not realizing that they would only cause even more needless strife and ill-will over this silly topic. He has acted in good faith and done the wrong thing—it happens to everyone. Let's not vilify those we disagree with just because they did something you find completely unacceptable; such deletions will be easy enough to revert with an undelete in order to allow the templates to be listed on TfD for discussion, with no lasting harm done. Whether you think a desysop is merited or not, hatred and baseless accusations are certainly neither merited nor helpful. If each person involved in this matter can calm down and simply discuss the matter in an even, open-minded manner, regardless of how poorly the other side is acting, we will very rapidly turn this from a divisive and destructive war back into a simple policy discussion. It's not impossible; no matter how deeply wrong and harmful you think the other side's views or actions are, try giving it a shot. We all have the same ultimate goal in mind; this is not a culture war between trolls/vandals/dictators and the noble Wikipedians they seek to oppress. It's just a simple, honest disagreement. -Silence 21:38, 18 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I am considering an Rfc, so he might not get away with much anymore. --D-Day Somebody talk to me. Please somebody! Anybody! 21:27, 18 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Hopefully you are aware there is currently no Wikipedia policy or guideline against templates which divide users by their views. The proper place for this discussion is TfD, where it will be deleted if consensus or discussion indicate that it ought to be. -Silence 22:41, 18 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Template:User no evil boxes

It was just a smiley saying Hi! I am a userbox with a POV. I won't hurt you, I promise! Pretty please don't delete me.

Obviously, it is not "clearly divisive or inflammatory" (CSD T1). Misza13 (Talk) 20:14, 18 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Punish me? In the current atmosphere, that userbox is clearly trolling. Stop it. --Doc ask? 20:26, 18 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Both of you are wrong. This userbox is not trolling; the word you're looking for is "satire". Nor is deleting it trolling; Doc glasgow simply feels that the userbox is detrimental to our work on the Wikipedia encyclopedia project. I have no doubt that none of the participants in this affair are acting in bad faith; this is merely the result of a simple difference in opinion, and not one so horribly tangled and complex that it's impossible for us to work this out in a discussion. They're just little colored boxes, for god's sake. Since whether this is "clearly divisive or inflammatory" is disputed, it can no longer easily be considered "clearly", so a TfD is merited: undelete and list on TfD. As a rule, speedy-deleting is for (relatively) uncontroversial deletions, not just a way to totally circumvent the TfD process, which has a long and successful history of making the correct decision through consensus and debate. Even if the outcome of the discussion ends up being moot for some reason, better to have at least had the discussion, so arguments for and against can be made. If nothing else, it'll at least lessen the ill-will of users who feel that their voices aren't being heard, which benefits the encyclopedia project by not disillusioning or driving away any of its valuable contributors. -Silence 21:01, 18 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Doc, we're not talking the usefulness of the userbox. That might be discussed on TfD after (a hopeful!) undeletion. We're discussing whether or not your deletion was justified. Misza13 (Talk) 20:40, 18 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • As the creator of this box I can guarantee to you that this was not created for just to have it speedily deleted. If you people wanted to know why it was created then you could of just asked instead of this pointless speculation.--God of War 02:32, 20 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Template:User incl and Template:User delete

These were the inclusionist and deletionist userboxes, relating to Wikipedia editing philosophy. Both were apparently speedily deleted by Doc glasgow on the grounds that they were "divisive." Smerdis of Tlön 18:41, 18 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

OK, these have been deleted as 'divisive'. Please present a coherent reason why you don't find providing bumper stickers to divide people into editing factions divisive? Explain how that division assists the encyclopedia, and makes people more inclined not to prejudice discussions by ideology and partisanship? --Doc ask? 19:58, 18 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Doc Glasgow has not vandalized anything; please try to remember that all participants in this debate are interested in doing what is best for Wikipedia. There are no evil forces at work here, no army of trolls seeking to tear Wikipedia apart from the inside; all there is is a simple disagreement over a minor policy issue. Doc was not acting in malice (indeed, from his perspective he is taking valuable time out of his day to protect Wikipedia from harmful and factionalizing elements, a rather noble objective), so the correct description of his actions is "a mistake", not "vandalism". Moreover, it's a mistake that's very easy to remedy, with a simple undelete. Shrill accusations are not necessary or helpful in this debate; it is possible to state your opinion in full without in any way straying from the ideals of WP:CIVIL. -Silence 21:09, 18 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Template:User allboxes

Despite a month-old Tfd that recommended to the contrary, this userbox was delted yesterday because it was divisive. --D-Day Somebody talk to me. Please somebody! Anybody! 17:46, 18 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

A couple of more needless speedies and I'm going to do just that. I hoped I would never have to use that tool. --D-Day Somebody talk to me. Please somebody! Anybody! 20:33, 18 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Undelete and RfC per D-Day Cynical 20:57, 18 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Undelete. There is no Wikipedia policy against pages like this, and consensus is currently to keep them. If you wish to have them deleted, the correct course of action is to suggest a new policy banning all lists of the sort, such as the ones featured on countless WikiProjects. It is not to take vigilante action against a random and arbitrary example of this common activity. Surely anti-userbox Wikipedians are just as capable of watching the list as pro-Wikipedians are; lists like this are not to stack votes (TfD is not a raw vote anyway), but to let interested parties keep tabs on ongoing discussions. -21:22, 18 February 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep deleted - I hope my votes aren't getting too tiresome now. I just think that userboxes, as a whole, have done much more harm than good to Wikipedia, and so they should all go. --Cyde Weys 21:53, 18 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    • Clyde, I hope you don't tire of people pointing out to you that this is not the forum to debate whether userboxes have done more harm than good or otherwise. This is the forum to debate whether the deletion was correct. Speedy deletions must follow the letter and spirit of the criteria - this has not. Thryduulf 22:01, 18 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
      • Are you having fun attacking all of my votes on this page? That's kind of a lame thing to do. And anyway, I noticed that you couldn't bother to get my name right, and then just copied the mistake quite a few times. Very nice. --Cyde Weys 06:07, 19 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Undelete and report the admin responsible for abuse of powers. FearÉIREANN\(caint) 00:29, 19 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Undelete. Hardly the divisive template. enochlau (talk) 01:31, 19 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Undelete - well at least Clyde is being honest about his desire to delete all userboxes.... Mostlyharmless 05:45, 19 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Undelete Halibutt 06:57, 19 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Undelete & RfC as above. MiraLuka 07:40, 19 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia:WikiProject Userboxes/Alerts

I wasn't sure if this belong on here since it's not a userbox, but it is relevant to the project. In any case, I can barely contain my anger over this speedy deletion in particular. This was used to alert Wikipedians to userbox debates that were in progress. This was brought up for deletion, and the consensus was KEEP.[1] Mark Sweep speedied this yesterday, leaving a comment of "enough." No reason was given for this speedy deletion. This has gone too far. Even users who oppose userboxes said that they used this page to keep track of debates, so this was not a pro-userbox tool by any means. If I could, I would post my real feelings about this, but they would be in violation of WP:CIVIL, so I will just end this rant by asking my fellow Wikipedians to make a wise, thought-out choice on this. --D-Day Somebody talk to me. Please somebody! Anybody! 16:42, 18 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Not necessarily. Not every Tfd userbox is posted on here. --D-Day Somebody talk to me. Please somebody! Anybody! 17:21, 18 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
It already was brought up at Mfd, and the result was keep. --D-Day Somebody talk to me. Please somebody! Anybody! 21:18, 18 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Maybe I should remember the full nom text when I write my responses. —Cuiviénen (Cuivië) 21:52, 18 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Template:User U.S. Republic

That the United States is a republic is a fact, not an opinion, and not inflammatory in the least. This template does not meet criteria T1 or any other. Undelete. Rogue 9 13:24, 18 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Comment 'divisive' is not one of the criteria - it has to be inflammatory or polemical Cynical 09:50, 19 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Template:User Chavez

I originally called for the deletion of this template. Wikipedians voted 5v1 for a keep. However, it was deleted anyway by MarkSweep. Did I miss something? How is this possible? Dosn't make any sense if you ask me. I've noticed other wikipedians have expressed the same concern regarding the deletion of other templates. If this is a common occurrence, why do we even bother with the voting process? alarm bells should be ringing.--James Bond 10:00, 18 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

(irrelevant thread moved to talk page)

Political Parties UserBoxes

These templates should be undeleted. Isnt it ones right to express themselves as to which political party they may belong to or support? Most were NOT using any copyrighted images.

Comment. You MUST specify, and provide links to, which userboxes you are talking about. Otherwise someone who is reading through DRV without having seen this debate elsewhere will be unable to assess it. The Land 20:24, 18 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Speedy Undelete Fkmd 04:16, 18 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Wikipedia is not a democracy. Keep deleted. Every last one of them. Also, for reference, the article namespace is a neat place. Mackensen (talk) 04:36, 18 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Undelete as per nom MiraLuka 05:03, 18 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Speedy Undelete - Nothing polemic about them. They do not in and of themselves incite or exacerbate political disputes, nor do they in any way suggest that the user is willing to engage in political disputes. —Cuiviénen (Cuivië) 05:43, 18 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Speedy Undelete, I was tempted to remove the speedy tags myself when I saw they were being mass-tagged. It would behoove Kelly Martin to stop dropping herself in the middle of the userbox drama, especially after her RFC. —Locke Cole • t • c 05:59, 18 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Endorse deletion. This is not the place. Divisive and not helpful. --Improv 06:10, 18 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Speedy Undelete. Wikipedia isn't a sysop dictatorship either. We are supposed to reach consensus on issues, which does not include speedy deleting userboxes that express a political or social opinion. Undelete these and all other userboxes, unless they are clearly out of line or have gone through a vote for deletion. And most of the userboxes that have been deleting the last 24 hours are not incredibly divisive or inflammatory. What is divisive and inflamatory is this rampant deletion of peoples opinions. The Ungovernable Force 06:17, 18 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Speedy Undelete. Most private interests can be contentious, including political ideologies, sexuality, views on gun laws etc etc. Political Parties is one aspect. The difference is that these userboxes are just that: userboxes. They are used by the users(!) to indicate what views they hold. To that end, in reference to Wikipedia, one can see fields of interest of particular users, and possibly collaborate with those users to help improve the encylopedia itself. The boxes are used only on peoples' user pages - that is their intended use.
I'm re-adding these comments I had made. MarkSweep deleted them from this page, citing WP:BEANS as the reason. I suggest that it is the sysop responsible for having deleted the user boxes that is actually in 'violation' of WP:BEANS. These were my original comments .. HOWEVER, I have not re-added a certain suggestion which *may* be considered violation of WP:BEANS -
The page Wikipedia:Userboxes/Political Parties still exists. Why?
If you are going to delete a whole section of Userboxes, then delete them all and have done with it. Was this category of userboxes deleted because the sysop took a personal dislike to them? Either delete the facility entirely, or leave it alone and let users decide on what is or is not appropriate or useful by concensus. --Mal 07:53, 18 February 2006 (UTC)
The page Wikipedia:Userboxes/Political Parties is still useful for further cleanup work, but I'm assuming it will be deleted soon. --MarkSweep (call me collect) 10:19, 18 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
By whom, and why? You know, I don't really care that much, but I am curious. I had added a box for a particularly moderate political party, in case anyone saw it and wanted to use it. I hadn't actually intended on using any of these specific boxes myself however. --Mal 10:54, 18 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Undelete. Most of these were harmless and were unilaterally deleted in violation of the rules of WP:TFD in the first place. Halibutt 08:12, 18 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep deleted They were deleted as 'divisive', which they clearly are. AS Jimbo has put it 'Here we are Wikipedians, out there we are advocates'. Wikipedia is about neutrality, where a POV or party affiliation is irrelevant. Templates are for building an encyclopedia, not for use for soapboxes or partisan strutting. You want to express your individuality - create you own website. Folk keep saying 'what about TfD' well, 1) TfD clearly says POV is a deletion criteria for templates. 2) In iny case TfD is irrelevant, because these were speedied - speedy deletions do not require debate or consensus. --Doc ask? 10:51, 18 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • but accusation of POV is not enough for speedy deletion, is it. Otherwise we'd have barely any articles in wikipedia. Halibutt
Stop wikilawyering. How is a democratic party userbox not representing a POV? You can't have it both ways - claim they are not like articles so NPOV doen't apply, and then claim they are entitled to the same protection from deletion that articles enjoy. Clearly no-one should speedy an article as POV. --Doc ask? 11:51, 18 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

*Endorse deletion. Divisive. Go use livejournal if you want this kind of thing. T1. --Improv 15:35, 18 February 2006 (UTC) You already voted. JDoorjam Talk[reply]

  • Speedy Undelete I dream of an online encyclopedia where its users aren't constantly berated for expressing themselves in userspace. I am a afraid we may have to start a NEW WIKI ENCYCLOPEDIA to have such freedom.  IS Guðsþegn – UTCE – 15:42, 18 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    • I'm sorry, but the talk of starting a new encyclopedia over the userbox debate is a little silly. JDoorjam Talk
Yeah it's a bit extreme, and I don't really want to start a new one. It was just used to stress the point. Userbox debates aren't just about goofy little userboxes. In this environment userboxes have surfaced as an expression of the right of individuals in any community to freedom of association. Communities cannot exist without it. One might say the whole community is our association. On one level true, but this is the excuse to actually deny freedom of association. As an example, used for clarity not to inflame, Communist governments used to claim that they represented ALL the people, so no non-dependent associations were allowed to form. It killed the community. Point, there is no universal community without particular communities. Another example, there is no universal church without particular churches, and particular churches have differences. If particulars are not allowed to flourish, then the universal dies.  IS Guðsþegn – UTCE – 16:31, 18 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Well, I don't know. I've always lived in the anglophone world. The anglophone world values freedom and personal responsibility, over conformity. This is coming from someone who considers himself communitarian and near-centrist. Perhaps I'm just being parochial, but I think freedom with social responsibility with thick-skinned-ness is the best way.  IS Guðsþegn – UTCE – 18:03, 18 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
The vote is TWENTY THREE to THREE in favor of keeping them, someone bring them back already! Weatherman90 17:07, 18 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Super Strong Speedy Keep. Like Glue. Wikipedia is NOT Communism. --D-Day Somebody talk to me. Please somebody! Anybody! 17:14, 18 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

  • Keep deleted - The mere fact that userboxes in general are causing so much divisive and counterproductive behavior makes me think they should all be done away with. The template namespace should be restricted to article templates ONLY. --Cyde Weys 17:24, 18 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
They wouldn't be divisive if admins didn't have a temper tantrum every time they saw one of these and tried to speedy them against the wishes of the majority. --D-Day Somebody talk to me. Please somebody! Anybody! 17:50, 18 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Actually, userboxes aren't causing division, userspace deletionism is causing division and counterproductivity.  IS Guðsþegn – UTCE – 18:21, 18 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

User No Marxism

Template was speedily deleted, apparently against community consensus. There is no reason not to allow statements of personal belief on user pages. Undelete. - Mike Rosoft 22:50, 17 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

What do you mean it violates NPOV? It's a USER BOX, for crying out loud. NPOV applies to articles, it CAN'T apply to users, because all of us are human beings and have POINTS OF VIEW. Who came up with this inane jihad anyway? Undelete Unigolyn 13:03, 20 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

User marriage man-woman and User Same Sex Marriage

Templates were speedily deleted, apparently against community consensus. There is no reason not to allow statements of personal belief on user pages. Undelete. - Mike Rosoft 22:50, 17 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

  • Keep deleted, both of them. Divisive and polemical, valid speedy. David | Talk 23:13, 17 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Undelete. Wikipedia is not a Borg mothership and some individuality should be allowed. --StuffOfInterest 23:33, 17 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep deleted. No, wikipedia is an encyclopedia not a debating society and this is obviously divisive. Stop knee-jerk listing thse things please. --Doc ask? 23:38, 17 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Undelete - Do not fulfill T1 requirements for speedy deletion (not deliberately inflammatory or divisive), discussion of User marriage man-woman brought up essentially the same points entirely in favor of keeping before being Speedy Kept, then deleted by the crusaders (User Same Sex Marriage was speedied too quickly for discussion). The most divisive thing about these userboxes is that people deleted them on a whim. Speedy deletion is not a toy. —Cuiviénen (Cuivië) 23:54, 17 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Neither is wikipedia - go play politics somewhere else, and buy a bumber sticker if you want. --Doc ask? 23:58, 17 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Doc, please stop being a dick. --Dragon695 01:40, 18 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
WP:NPA, WP:DICK. —Cuiviénen (Cuivië) 04:21, 18 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Template:User freedom

TFD has already been closed as a Strong Keep here Wikipedia:Templates_for_deletion/Log/2006_January_22#Template:User_freedom. Cleary the community has spoken, this template is not divisive. This speedy deletion by User:Doc glasgow is nothing more than an end run around a valid TFD.

Thank you for undeleting it, Grue. Can you please now move this discussion to the (protected) archive? Misza13 (Talk) 11:26, 19 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Fox hunting userboxes

Template:User against fox hunting was originally deleted by Tony Sidaway on January 3, as "Proselytising is not a defensible use of Wikipedia resources" Mike Rosoft restored it not too long after Tony's deletion. Yesterday, Mark Sweep speedied as "per CSD T1 as tagged." And did the same to Temolate:User for fox hunting for the same reason.

I'm not sure what the latter said, but the one against fox hunting simply said "This user opposes fox hunting." and containted a picture of a fox. I don't see what can be so "inflammatory" or "divisive" about that, especially if their is an opposing userbox to balance the POV. --D-Day Somebody talk to me. Please somebody! Anybody! 12:31, 17 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Template: User nospeedy

Was speedied because it was "divisive", "inflammatory", and violation of T1. No consensus for its deletion was reached yet, and the debate was not closed. --D-Day 16:10, 16 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

  • undeleate Voices legit concerns over admins ignoring or circumventing process. Mike McGregor (Can) 16:19, 16 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment: can someone put the content of this userbox on display here? I'd like to know exactly what it said. (Though, having said that, I'm getting tired of userboxes being deleted out of process, regardless of their content.) JDoorjam Talk 16:33, 16 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • For information, the content was: This user wishes that userboxes wouldn't get speedied without consent, especially during a TfD debate. Please be fair, admins.. And it was deleted for: 'per WP:CSD T1, WP:POINT, and WP:TROLL as tagged)'.
  • Important comment I think a number of people are missing the point here:
  1. Speedy deletions do not require consensus, debate or process - they never have. That's why they are called 'speedy'. They are carried out at discression of admins, under the guidence of the WP:CSD. It is quite legitimate to speedy during an xfD debate or at any other time if the article is within the spirit of the criteria.
  2. Speedy deletions should not usually be brought to DRV unless the item self-evidently is ouwith the spirit of the deletion criteria - or its deletion would be a loss to the encyclopedia. Yet some people seem intent on listing every userbox deletion here, in a clear attempt to circumvent a deletion criteron (T1) that they do not like. (It is clearly quite reasonable for an admin to view this box as divisive and inflammetory, and unhelpful to encyclopedia building).
  3. Why should userboxes enjoy special status? It keeps being said that userboxes are being deleted 'out of process'. They are not. Only very few out of the 6,000 that currently exist get deleted, and they are deleted in exactly the same manner as any other item. If they meet the spirit of the speedy criteria, they go by speedy, if not then they should be debated at tfd. Please also consider that the reason admins are relectant to send offending boxes to tfd, is that tfd is being weighted an by a 'stuff the deletion criteria - keep every userbox' block vote. --Doc ask? 17:04, 16 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for posting the content. To clarify, I'm expressing frustration at the entire controversy in general. I understand the uses and limits of a speedy deletion; the strife its use is causing is still frustrating, though, even if it's legitimate. But my parenthetical statement was meant as more of a groan than an argument one way or another.
This userbox seems like it was specifically designed to get picked up and speedily deleted. It's an outward message, not a description of the user, it's clearly polemical and seems like it meant to be in order to violate WP:POINT... it seems to me like it was properly speedily deleted. Again, if people want to debate CSD T1, there are fora for such a discussion all over the Wik. Userboxes simply should not be soapbox-in-a-box (isn't that what this whole debate is about?). I'm afraid this userbox seems to be making a point of missing the point. JDoorjam Talk 17:26, 16 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry, to be clear my remarks were not aimed specifically at you, but at the nom and the debates here in general. Oh,just to be clear keep deleted - although I object to having to vote here every time something is quite legitimately speedied. --Doc ask? 17:33, 16 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
This does look like a clear WP:POINT violation, but that isn't a speedy delition criteria. For a template to be speedy deleted it MUST be "devisive" or "inflamatory", and to comply with the spirit it must be unarguably so. In my opinion this template is borderline on both counts so TfD would have been a more apropriate avenue. I would vote delete in a debate but it does not qualify for speedy deletion, so Undelete and send to TfD. Thryduulf 18:05, 16 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Eh, I don't believe it's an attempt to assert opposition to T1, but rather, to assert opposition to admins who speedily delete template out of process. T1 is valid, but very few templates are truly clearly divisive. It may be read as an attempt to assert opposition to the standing interpretation of T1, but I honestly don't feel that many people disagree with the spirit of the criterion. --Blu Aardvark | (talk) | (contribs) 19:10, 16 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Template:User no Rand

It's a shame that we have to discuss this AGAIN, seeing as it already passed DRV on February 9 and was re-listed on WP:TFD, but of course, an admin saw fit to speedy delete it once more under the convienent T1 loophole (log). Recommendation: Undelete and Relist on TFD --Blu Aardvark | (talk) | (contribs) 01:09, 13 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

  • T1 is a subjective criterion to which deletionists have determined means that they get to delete any template that expresses any opposing viewpoint. I don't believe this was Jimbo's intention, and I don't believe that this is the purpose of T1, hence the term "loophole". --Blu Aardvark | (talk) | (contribs) 18:37, 13 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep deleted all user boxes which criticize or disparage their subjects. CSD T1 is not a loophole. — Knowledge Seeker দ 05:04, 13 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep deleted per Knowledge Seeker and Tony. CSD T1 is policy and it was endorsed by Jimbo.--Alhutch 05:32, 13 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep deleted. Simply put, listing things you dislike or disagree with does nothing to build the encyclopedia and is quite likely to annoy people of the opposite persuasion. (Nobody would introduce himself to a stranger by saying, "Hi, I'm Mike, I hate the ACLU, oppose anyone who's ever fired a gun, and really hope gay marriage never sees the light of day." But this is becoming par for the course at Wikipedia.) It is exactly the sort of pointlessly inflammatory thing that has been speedy deleted in the past and should continue to be speedy deleted in the future. Christopher Parham (talk) 05:53, 13 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    • No, but in the course of working with someone on an encyclopedia with the idea of having the article display a neutral point of view at the end, it is highly useful to know what your fellow editors' POVs are so that you can determine whether or not they are inserting said POVs into the articles. Userboxes keep people accountable. To that end, undelete. Rogue 9 06:23, 14 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep deleted. Divisive, poisoning well, yaddayadda. --Improv 06:02, 13 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Undelete Its already survived one DRV, why is there someone so hell-bent on getting this deleted?!? - • | Đܧ§§Ť | • T | C 10:27, 13 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep deleted, CSD T1 is active, if restrained from widespread use, and Christopher Parham said it better than I ever could. -- nae'blis (talk) 17:32, 13 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Undelete. Simply saying that disclosing one's POV doesn't help to build a NPOV encyclopedia doesn't make it true. This is a legitimate opinion which, if disclosed, would help other editors understand the user's point of view. --James S. 18:22, 13 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Right. I think understanding that other people are not POV-less editing drones, but real people with real opinions is helpful. And knowing those opinions helps editors better communicate with one another. If anything, I find it more worrisome when people hide their biases from other people, or pretend that their biases do not extend to Wikipedia. Sarge Baldy 18:30, 13 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep deleted divisive - again Trödel&#149;talk 18:45, 13 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep deleted all negative userboxes. This means any userbox that says "no" to something, is "anti" something, "opposes" something. Keep all userboxes that are positive. This means any userbox that states a simple characteristic or quality of the editor. This does not mean make a judgement about what you personally feel is positive or negative, helpful or divisive. Feel free to copy this vote to any debate it applies to. Grace Note 01:26, 14 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Undelete - What is wrong with people? TFD is not just a recommendation, you can't just ignore it if you don't like something.--God of War 04:53, 14 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Endorse deletion - It's divisive and inflammatory, therefore it is against both the spirit and the policy of Wikipedia. The continual recreation of this article is paramount to trolling to make a WP:POINT. Kill it, salt the earth, protect from recreation, and a pox on anyone who tries to game their way around this. Proto||type 09:45, 15 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]


Template:User pacifist3

File:Peace Sign.svg This user thinks pacifists make good target practice.

on the tfd for user pacifist, here, there were 30 keep votes to 19 delete votes. A Strong majority to keep. However User:Splash has closed the afd as a No Consensus. He then went to Speedy delete the box claming it was divisive. Cleary the TFD has proven that the community thinks this userbox is not divisive. Please Undelete this.--God of War 19:48, 12 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Template:User opposes ubx screwing

This appears to be a mistaken deletion. The text of the userbox didn't appear to be divisive/inflammatory as Physchim62, who deleted it, said. The creator may correct me, but it could have meant that that user didn't want to see userboxes vandalized or added to their userpage without permission, rather than the whole userbox debate. --D-Day 19:47, 12 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

*Keep deleted per CSD T1 - this template is actually unnessarily divisive. Nonetheless, I do recommend restoring the content on the userpages that link to this - I have observed a handful of userpages that have redlinks to this template. --Blu Aardvark | (talk) | (contribs) 01:28, 13 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

  • This template appears to have been recreated. Looking at the text displayed in the current version, it does not appear to be divisive, but nonetheless, the title is. I recommend undeleting (current revision) and moving to a non-offensive title. --Blu Aardvark | (talk) | (contribs) 17:52, 13 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Template:User against Iraq War

This admin is deleting templates without a consensus for deletion and adding speedy delete tags to userboxes which are already under discussion. This has resulted in the speedy deletion of several userboxes. This is censorship and an abuse of admin power. It is vandalism, and I put up a notice on Vandalism in Progress about him, though it was removed. --Revolución (talk) 20:04, 10 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

  • A recent example is Template:User against Iraq War, which was put up for TfD. Voting at time of Tony's deletion was 13 keep, 4 delete [2]. --Fang Aili 20:11, 10 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    • You seem to be confused about the purpose and nature of WP:TFD. It is not a vote. It is a debate. You are encouraged to provide arguments that address the deletion criteria for templates set out on WP:TFD. The majority of the "keep" opinions failed to address the criteria and thus contributed nothing to the debate. --MarkSweep 

(call me collect) 07:09, 11 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comment. Voting in a vacuum I'd support this without having to see the content. The title itself is clearly divisive, presenting an obvious POV without telling others "I can help you based on my expertise." But I must say... admins should remember how much it sucks for a non-admin to see admins making sudden decisions out of process. It seems TonyS deleted this, and I have voted in favour of his deletions here, but I do want to emphasize how annoying it is when fD gets ignored because some admin was "in that mood." It really does suck. You vote yay or nay on some fD page (or maybe you're just watching) and then you realize an admin can speedy and haul it over here (where, largely, only admins comment) regardless of any emerging consensus on the relevant fD page. Thus, I don't think I support Revolucion's ideas here, but I see his frustration. Marskell 21:51, 10 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Undelete The concensus apparently reached was "speedy delete". However, looking through the discussion, nobody had suggested a speedy deletion, and that the huge majority of people voted keep. If this is going to happen all the time, why dont we just abolish discussions? - • | Đܧ§§Ť | • T | C 22:16, 10 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep deleted when discussions go directly against policy then admins have the responsibility to follow the policy even if that is out of process - process is to support policy not create an environment to individually ignore/overturn policy when it suits a specific group of users. Trödel&#149;talk 22:38, 10 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Undelete and RFC the admins responsible what is the point of having a Tfd process if admins just arbitrarily delete templates they happen to dislike Cynical 22:41, 10 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep deleted TfD is broken. Speedies are exceptional deletion criteria that do not require to establish consensus. --Doc ask? 22:49, 10 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Don't go there. Wait until the userbox debate is finished, then consider them all en bloc. This whole busienss is taking over the entire project. - Just zis  Guy, you know? [T]/[C] 22:57, 10 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • I've created the template in my own userspace. The fascists here will probably try to censor it again, but I won't let them. --Revolución (talk) 23:22, 10 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Undelete as per Vargher Mike McGregor (Can) 23:32, 10 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Kill it with fire, as per Vargher. Five article edits and 60 user page edits illustrate his misconceptions: Wikipedia is NOT a blog, free hosting service, or billboard for promoting one's personal beliefs. MySpace and Blogspot are that-a-way if that's what he wants; this place is supposed to be a freaking encyclopedia. --Calton | Talk 00:45, 11 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    • Someone's in the dark. The entire WP:UBX project is littered with personal beliefs! Just look at the Politics and Beliefs section, with userboxes advocating Taiwan independence and various other little things. Userboxes are the expression of our personal beliefs, and have caught on like wildifre on many user pages. Clearly the "this is an encyclopeida" is moot, as is the personal attack against the user in question. - Hbdragon88 04:33, 11 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
      • Someone's in the dark. True -- but it's not me. Check out User:Vargher's contributions: compare all edits with article edits: Time and edits enough to create/install 79 or so user boxes, and only enough time for 5 article edits. Do you understand the point, or are diagrams required?
      • The entire WP:UBX project is littered with personal beliefs! I need to ask: did the "Mom! [my brother/my sister/the next-door-neighbor's kid] does it!" rationale work when you were a child? No? Why should it work now? --Calton | Talk 06:35, 11 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
        • The sheer number of userboxes on UBX shows that userboxes are here to stay and that they are being used as a medium to express opinions. You wrote that Wikipedia is not a "billboard for promoting one's personal beliefs." The userboxes project proves otherwise. Don't throw the "They do it!" argument at me. - Hbdragon88 21:09, 11 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
          • Don't throw the "They do it!" argument at me. Why? Are you disavowing it now? Because, you know, that's precisely what you're saying; your handwaving and sputtering about numbers doesn't change what's at the core of your argument. --Calton | Talk 02:42, 13 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep deleted. Valid deletion per CSD T.1. Ignore all opinions here based on out-of-process arguments such as "censorship" or "free speech". --MarkSweep (call me collect) 01:35, 11 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Undelete This userbox is neither divisive nor inflammatory. Its deletion was both divisive and inflammatory. --Daniel 02:51, 11 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    It's not right wing pv pimping... he has gone after boxes that the right would support as well. Jwissick(t)(c) 06:07, 11 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    If "he" in this instance refers to me, my political compass readings are as follows:
    Economic Left/Right: -8.75
    Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -7.69
    The accusations of edit warring, vandalism and whatnot are equally fatuous. --Tony Sidaway 10:29, 11 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong Overturn. I do not agree with the message, but I will fight for the right to say it. IMHO I think speedy is beng abused by admins who can't get consensus. Jwissick(t)(c) 06:07, 11 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Extremely Strong, Emphatic Overturn - The constant speedy deletion and vandalism of userboxes bya small number of admins has got to stop, and it has to stop immediately. This template must be restored and an RfC started. This is getting to the point, or perhaps beyond the point, of de-adminship for trolling and incessant WP:POINT violations. —Cuiviénen (Cuivië) 06:11, 11 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep deleted all user boxes which disparage or criticize their subject. Needlessly divisive and inflammatory. This is an encyclopedia. — Knowledge Seeker দ 06:31, 11 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep deleted the deletion of this template WAS disruption of Wikipedia, however this userbox sucks and I almost deleted it myself when I saw it on TfD.  Grue  07:02, 11 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Overturn Deletion This is hilarious. 1) I'm one of the ones who should feel inflamed and felt cut off from his fellow wikipedian by this "inflammatory and divisive" template because I totally disagree with it. The only thing is...I'M NOT! I enjoy hearing a opposite point of view and respect those who have them. I wish people would stop chicken-littling that wikipedia is going to end if people have POV's on their user pages. Edit wars don't start over that, they start over what's in ARTICLES. 2) Although I personally think free speech is a good enough reason to keep, I'm one of the few people who posted what I think are "wikipedia project-related" reasons why these templates are good, which User:MarkSweep "swept under the rug" by not responding. I said, "this template lets users know you have a strong personal opinion regarding a subject, that you may be interested in editing articles related to it, and may be source of information regarding what adherents to that opinion believe." 3) I say deleting these templates is moot because it's just a big exercise in masturbation. Your big reason for deleting them is that you don't want "divisive, inflammatory POV" on userpages? Well, if you delete them, people will just use the raw code (or prose!) to recreate them on their userpages. What then? Lawyer2b 07:54, 11 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: I can't help but chuckle. Those Admins who want all these "nasty POV Templates" deleted to keep the wikicommunity together coudln't have created more bitterness and division with their actions if they tried. Pray tell gentlemen...will the beatings continue until morale improves? Lawyer2b 08:18, 11 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Restore in the user namespace. (Second choice: Keep deleted.) I like Crotalus horridus' compromise that was used in some of the other DRV debates. Banish userboxes not directly related to the encyclopedia from the template namespace, but keep them in user namespace so they can be transcluded if necessary. I used to think this would die down on its own, but I'm honestly fed up with Wikipedia. I never thought I'd say this, but I'm seriously considering leaving, and I doubt Wikipedia will continue on for much longer if things remain like this. Johnleemk | Talk 10:40, 11 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Endorse deletion while no fan of unilateralism, this template does nothing to either help us write a better encyclopedia or support our efforts to demostrate our obligation to WP:NPOV.--MONGO 10:49, 11 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Undelete.helohe (talk) 13:30, 11 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep deleted POV template. --Doc ask? 16:30, 11 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong Overturn and Relist. This is not a review of the template, it's a review of the process; TfD is for discussion of whether templates should be deleted, and Deletion Review is for reviewing whether the deletion was merited at that point of time or not, not as a way to hide TfD revotes from the majority of voters whenever an admin gets frisky. It is absurdly clear that this deletion was very poorly-done: see the discussion at Wikipedia:Templates_for_deletion#Template:User_against_Iraq_War_2 for details. Not a single user had voted for "speedy delete", no one had brought up why and how it might be "divisive" or "inflammatory", there was a large consensus to keep, and even the people who voted "delete" did not vote "speedy". If those voters were mistaken or misinformed or unaware of the , then the correct next step to take would be to vote and explain your view, arguing for speedy-delete and then waiting to see if your argument gains support. It is not to take abrupt and callously dismissive unilateral action, which has infinitely more potential to be divisive and offensive to the majority of users than some dinky little userbox ever could. What's going to drive valuable editors away is abuse of process like this and admins' apathy to it (as demonstrated by the number of "endorse" votes here), not ridiculous brightly-colored rectangles. Even if you believe this should be deleted (in fact, I personally wouldn't really mind such an outcome, after the TfD runs its course!), you should vote to overturn this so it can be given its proper length of time; if you believe it to be divisive and inflammatory (which a large number of people clearly do not, so this speedy-delete is disputed and merits a full vote!), then explain why. Whatever happened to these things being discussions rather than votes? Instead, it seems now that they're neither: both the votes themselves and the contents of the TfD are being completely disregarded simply because an admin disagrees with them (but apparently doesn't have enough respect for any of the voters to reply to their points and form a counter-argument, rather than using force to silence them). Pointless, controversial speedy-deletes like this are making the entire TfD process look like a silly little diversion for non-admins to waste their time on while admins just speedy-del whatever the hell they feel like rather than voting or commenting. It's contributing much more to the increasingly hostile, aggressive, and intolerant atmosphere around here than the userboxes themselves are! -Silence 16:53, 11 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Endorse deletion. Divisive, this is not the place. --Improv 18:19, 11 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Endorse deletion. There is no way that 'I am against X' userboxes are helping create an encyclopedia. Therefore, given the problems they cause, we have to dispense with them. Furthermore, people who go round calling their opponents 'fascists' in this sort of debate do nothing to help their own cause. The Land 19:27, 11 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    • Land, you and others arguing along this line fail to realize: Wikipedia is edited by people. People who happen to have their likes and dislikes. Userboxes that allow persons to associate as a group, or make their beliefs known, and which give them a sense of place within the Wikipedia project may not be considered encyclopedic by you, but they are encyclopedic for those who use them in that they provide a small measure of reward for our work.
In the end, you are the ones shooting yourselves in the feet. A volunteer project is only as good as its willingness to accomodate its volunteers. --Daniel 05:12, 12 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Volunteer projects are not about self-glorification of the volunteers, or about giving them a chance to push a view. Try going to a soup kitchen or a homeless shelter and handing out political buttons or otherwise "expressing yourself" that way, and I think you may change your views on this. The thing that a lot of people on this deletion review board don't understand is that their userpage is not their property. It's there at the tolerance of the project. We're not trying to storm your home to censor your thoughts -- your userpage is not your personal webpage or anything of the sort. --Improv 18:22, 14 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Jimbo has also discouraged going on a mass userbox deletion spree as counterproductive. --James S. 21:29, 12 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Archived discussions

See /Archive

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