Talk:September 11 attacks

An event mentioned in this article is a September 11 selected anniversary.

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Please remember -- this talk page is for discussing the mechanics of the article (what to include, how to include it) only and not a place to discuss the events of 9/11 Sdedeo (tips) 18:16, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

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The archives of the discussion of the September 11, 2001 attacks article may be found here:
1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17,

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Citation 24

The cited link is brokent/not available right now. The cited fact states that amongst other countries, India and UK introduced anti-terrorist legislations. I can't figure out what legislations in these countries are being referred to.

Debunking Loose Change

Great video debunking the idiocy known as Loose Change.

• "Screw Loose Change", a counter-video debunking the Loose Change film

plonk. Blue King

vandalism?!

Is someone going to revert to the previous version? The content looks professional, but there isn't much of it! Wave of Mutilation 05:08, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

already taken care of... Generaleskimo (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) is a vandal that uses edit summaries to make it look like he is helping... - Adolphus79 05:15, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

The Alternative Theories Section

I've been away on other things, and haven't got to starting the Alternate Theories section yet. (Nothing mysterious has happened to me! ;) I think it is safe to start on a foreknowledge section, and a dissenting government officials section. I did look at what it was saying about that one Bin Laden tape on 9/11 myths.com, and admit that when you see the whole tape, some shots look considerably more like Bin Ladin than others. The bit about the ring, when Islam prohibits it is still out of place. That guy laughs a lot, too. Bin Laden doesn't seem to be the kind who has a good sense of humor, but it did seem a more informal situation. Still, the video is darker and has poor resolution, so that may account for some of the difficulty. I downloaded a low-resolution video from cnn.com of the second plane hitting the tower, and there is a red spot off-center from the plane just before it strikes, similar to those in Loose Change, but I guess I need to quit being cheap and just order some of the documentaries to get better resolution. I've read about half of a page on Able Danger somebody pointed out to me above, and it is interesting. This may not be quick, but as it is a minority view, we won't be able to get into much depth here anyway. Thanks for helping guard the Wikipedia content, BTW, guys. I hope there is a way to ban outright vandals, by IP mask, not userid. --ThaThinker 23:35, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

I want to applaude your efforts, but fair warning: There are a number of bullies on this page who will fight tooth and nail to prevent any facts that dispute the official theory of events from being included. Instead of reasoned rationale debate, they will attempt to label you a lunatic fringe conspiracy theorist and will marginalize your contributions by pointing you to the 9/11 Conspiracy theories page. I tried and failed to do this a few weeks back, eventually giving up in frustration. I even went so far as to post a warning to contributors such as yourself, but it has since been buried deep in the archives. [1]

Hopefully you have more success than I did Digiterata 12:05, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

I won't resort to calling 9/11 conspiracists lunatic here, because that is against Wikipedia policy. However, "facts that dispute the official theory of events" is a misnomer. Such "facts" cited by the 9/11 Truth Movement are unsubstantiated or thoroughly refuted; please visit the links I provide in the Alternate Theories section above. -- Huysman^{talk| contribs} 15:03, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

The 'alternate theories section' is 9/11 conspiracy theories. Tom Harrison ^Talk 12:17, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

Yes, Tom is right. There shouldn't even be any debate, for the reason he cites. -- Huysman^{talk| contribs} 14:58, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

This article should address some disagreements over some of the particulars. It isn't screamingly obvious that every detail of the Commission Report is correct, in fact much of it is disputed and there are lots of omissions. Anything at all that doesn't jive perfectly with the official version goes to the "conspiracy theory" can? That ain't right. SkeenaR 20:08, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

Why not? Maybe the offical version is the only one that is encyclopedically correct as it pertains to this subject, and the other silliness is correctly placed in the article Tom Harrison pointed out.--MONGO 20:14, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

It can't be true that the official version is the only explanation of events that can be encyclopedically correct as evidenced by the dozens of other articles that contain information which is in contradiction with the official version. SkeenaR 20:33, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

This article contains verifiable information from reliable sources. The "alternate theory" articles use information from unreliable sources, and much of it is original research -- the alternate theory articles are poor encyclopedic work and should be rewritten or deleted. Morton devonshire 21:20, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

Well, if these other versions are unsubstantiated and full of wide-eyed POV, then they are best left out of this article. WP:OR--MONGO 21:14, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

Morton, that's just a bunch more opinion from you. I'm inclined to agree with Mongo on this..no silly unsubsustantiated wide-eyed POV OR. SkeenaR 21:36, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

Yes, it's my opinion that the New York Times, the Boston Globe, the Philadelphia Enquirer, the Seattle Times/PI et al. are reliable sources, and Alex Jones, 911truth.org, 911scholars.org, and other blogs are unreliable sources. That's Wikipedia policy, not merely my opinion. Check WP:RS and WP:V Morton devonshire 21:41, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

I'm not sure if you've ever noticed but things don't necessarily have to come from Jones or "truth" or whoever to be in contradiction. The mainstream media and the gov't as reliable...what a joke...we always get the straight goods from them. Go get the WMD's...it'll be a cakewalk...flowers and hummers from the Iraqi girls. Oh yeah...the Taliban have been overthrown...Afghanistan is now an ally in the War On Terror...a member of the Coalition of the Willing. Do you believe that shit Morton? SkeenaR 21:51, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

Well the resulting War on Terror didn't go as well as promised, but I seriosly have to ask: What does any of that have to do with editing this page?--DCAnderson 22:21, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

We are talking about silly unsubstantiated wild eyed POV OR and reliable sources. Yes, they make promises too. SkeenaR 22:37, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

Hmm, well remember that all the things you are talking about there didn't exactly stay very well hidden. We can reliably say no WMDs were found. We can reliably say that Iraq has been a qaugmire. We can reliably say this because the media reports on it, this same media that is supposedly in the pockets of the government. The government isn't 100% reliable, but if they screwed up on 9/11, we'll hear about it. In fact we have heard about all the things they could have done better, that was essentially the whole point of the 9/11 commission.--DCAnderson 22:46, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

Just so you know, I didn't write here to argue. I just wanted to say that this article is missing some encyclopedic info. But now that you mention it, no these things we were just referring to don't stay hidden forever, they manage to stay hidden just long enough to say "it's too late now". In the past, some of these types of things have been shown to happen by design. As to the point of the Commission, it's the opinion of some that it was to get to the bottom of things, and it's the opinion of others that it was meant to be a government sposored whitewash. SkeenaR 22:57, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

So how long do they have to keep it a secret?--DCAnderson 23:00, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

I don't know if it's a secret, or which things are secret. But if you want an example that I've brought up on this page before about reliable information- all the unreliable, wide-eyed POV, agenda driven private sites under the control of one or two webmasters were trying explain in no uncertain terms that there were no WMD's in Iraq, while the MSM and gov't were cramming it hard enough down the throat of the public that most people suddenly thought it was a good idea to go on these cakewalk missions to spread freedom and democracy around the world and to the poor backwards dumbasses who attacked us because they hate us for such things. My only point is that I think we should rethink what we consider reliable and unreliable sources, or if we might use many different kinds of sources. I think we need to diversify this article a bit. Either that or it should be deleted and reposted at the State Department and DHS. SkeenaR 23:11, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

Well you should consider how many non-conspiracy theorists there were who were pissed off because Bush chose to invade before allowing weapons inspections to take place. But no, it was just the conspiracy theorists who saw it coming. *roll eyes*--DCAnderson 23:26, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

That's not what I'm saying, and you are misrepresenting my comments. When I mentioned this example previously, I used Scott Ritter as the example of someone claiming that there were no WMD's there. Mostly, he was only taken seriously by alternative media rather than mainstream. He is not from the "wild eyed" crowd, nor were the "tin-hatters" the only ones to take him seriously, but for the most part the MSM pushed the govt line and the rest is history. Roll eyes he says. Does it hurt them to see this? You can't stand the fact that georgie and o'reilly were completely full of shit? That Tin Hatter Alex Jones was right that time? It doesn't matter anyway. I think I've made my point about the sources. SkeenaR 00:17, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

George Bush and Bill O'Reilly could both be described as "full of shit?" Stop the presses! My whole world is coming apart...gah... Papa Bear, nooooo!--DCAnderson 00:22, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

Somewhere there's a chat board that wonders where everyone is. Tom Harrison ^Talk 00:31, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

Ok, Ok, I'm done :) SkeenaR 00:36, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

United States article on featured candidate nominations list

Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/United States

Cast your vote! The more responses, the more chances the article will improve and maybe pass the nomination.--Ryz05 _t 23:05, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

Different types of point of view

An observation that bears repeating: this article is Wikipedia's version of events, based on verifiable enyclopedic content; the US government version has its own article.

Some of the discussion seems to suggest all the content is opinion without being definitively true or false. That might apply to good-faith political opinions, but it does not apply to engineering opinions. Most objections come down to some variation of "why is a controlled demolition not being seriously considered?" The simple answer is that it does not merit consideration. A deliberate demolition of the towers while rescue efforts were on going would constitute pre-meditated mass murder, and if any evidence pointed to it, then without question a thorough investigation of the crime would be necessary. However, there is no such evidence. While it is true there are some observations consistent with a deliberate demolition (and these are almost all based the lowest-quality video and photographs), there are no examples of observations simultaneously consistent with demolition and not consistent with catastrophic structural failure.

Meanwhile, more valid, and useful, questions such as whether there was negligence before or political exploitation after go unaddressed. Peter Grey 03:48, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

That's a little deceptive, since the government version of events did not begin with the 9/11 Commission Report. This article is POV mainly not because of POV statements, but because it seems to assume the government view is the right one, as your POV statement does, while giving no consideration for the opinions of a substantial minority. You assume if there was good evidence of it, that there would be any will to undertake a criminal investigation. If this was a conspiracy that reached, for example, into the highest levels of government, we might well NOT expect that. There are good and responsible reasons to suggest they were controlled demolitions. Numerous secondary explosions, both reported and measured, and what appear to be squibs shot from many angles, and pools of molten metal lasting for MONTHS are in fact not consistent with melting on account of what is basically kerosine. Is it my fault you haven't done your homework?

See: http://www.physics.byu.edu/research/energy/htm7.html

The challenge is to see how much holds water once the dust settles.

Much I think would have to be changed about this page to remove support for the government theory. Better to have one introduction page that links to all the sub-pages. 9/11 skeptics have much better evidence than the people who characterize us as wearing tin-foil hats would give us credit for, at least in our opinion, and so long as there is a substantial minority that supports it, it deserves mention. I suppose somewhere, there is or should be a rule in wikipedia that it also stand some test of reasonableness, and so while I am not sure if the point is moot or not, it is the opinion of many of us that many such good arguments exist. In science, nothing is true or false, only more or less probable, BTW. This should not prevent one from reaching working conclusions, as in a forensic investigation. Of course, no forensic investigation is possible in the current case, as the evidence was unlawfully removed from the scene of the crime, and the investigation was underfunded, not allowed access to the crime scene, and perfunctory at best. Exploitation of 9/11 as an excuse to abridge our constitutional rights is sorta peripheral to the events themselves, but might be linked to from here. Any other pearls of skepticism to offer us as to problems with the official theory you'd care to volunteer? The Flat Earth theory gets at least mentioned on the Earth page, even though it has nothing anywhere near as tangible to point to in the way of evidence as the 9/11 critics do. If our complete exlusion with uncritical acceptance of the government position isn't POV, then I do not know what is. If we were cranks, we would deserve better. We would suggest that our evidence is much better than that.

If a lot of people wish to remove all disputed assertions from this and have POV sub-articles, as Mongo suggests, this is also possible. The downside is, how can we identify the person in first alleged Bin Laden confession tape, if we can't say he is, or he isn't Osama? What we have here works just fine for an official version, IMHO, and it only needs to be brought into balance with alternate theories, of which there is really only one, which I would formulate as follows: There are enough credible problems in the official version to call for a new truly independent, and far more public, open and comprehensive investigation into 9/11 than we have already had in the 9/11 Commission. I do this to solve the problem that there are people who consider themselves skeptics of the official version, but do not think the towers collapsed as a result of controlled demolition (i.e. LIHOP as opposed to MAHOP). They are generally happy to join with us in our call to bring these matters to the public attention, and hopefully, more independent and open investigation. Sunlight is, after all, the best disinfectant - for political matters anyway. One note about "Loose Change" I've come across - I don't believe he mentions the flashes just before or as the planes hit the buildings are in the second edition; only the first.

BTW guys, although it is a related debate, WMD's are really a different topic.

--ThaThinker 11:23, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Undue weight sums it up fairly well.--DCAnderson 12:25, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Undue weight is clearly not applicable. SkeenaR 22:38, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

I disagree. --ThaThinker 00:26, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Undue weight is applicable in keeping theories regarding shape-shifting extra-dimensional reptoids and other such nonsense out of the article as it is the view of a tiny fringe minority. But it is not a tiny minority that disagrees with many different aspects of the official version and therefore some of these aspects deserve at least a mention here. SkeenaR 00:42, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Hey man, just remember, there is probably some dude out there (and possibly on Wikipedia) who feels just as pasionately about the shapeshifting reptiles as you feel about this.--DCAnderson 01:38, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

David Icke is the shapshifting reptoid conspiracy guy. His Alice in Wonderland and the World Trade Center Disaster is #55,318 on Amazon. Thierry Meyssan's 9/11: The Big Lie is #127,857. The Science & Engineering of Materials by Askeland and Phulé is #399,707. Tom Harrison ^Talk 01:28, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

But that's not the point. It doesn't matter who feels passionately about what. I am not trying to prove that the official version is wrong. Also, I'm not trying to offend anybody no matter what they believe. The point is that the Undue Weight clause is not applicable per the reason I cited above. SkeenaR 01:52, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

So how are they not a minority?--DCAnderson 01:54, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

They may or may not be a minority, but they are not a "tiny minority". Read the policy. SkeenaR 02:03, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

They seem pretty tiny, especially in comparison to the supporters of the mainstream view. They just seem more vocal than anything else.--DCAnderson 02:05, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

They may or may not be a minority, but they are not a "tiny minority". They are a "significant minority". What you just stated above is pure opinion. Check the news, check google rankings on 9/11 related subjects, check the polls, and not just current ones. Read the policy. SkeenaR 02:03, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

All I've seen of these guys so far is:

1. An ocassional fluff piece news article.
2. A handfull of sites owned by a handful of people who all copy/paste the same articles from each other to deliberately skew Google hits.
3. A deliberately misleading poll put out by one of the above mentioned sites.

I'm not convinced that this is a signifigant minority. Vocal, yes. Signifigant, no.--DCAnderson 02:52, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Over half of the population wants the investigation reopened. Is that significant? Don't give an Ameriflag 03:13, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

I must be on the right track seeing as how you are now on the offensive with a bunch of POV and not one shred of evidence to back it up. On the other hand, I can find plenty of evidence supporting my assertions regarding the Undue Weight policy. You can go ahead and ask for it. I will give it to you. But I wonder if you will attempt another refute similar to the one above, thereby keeping us in an pointless merry-go-round. SkeenaR 03:14, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Aren't the talk pages on all the 9/11 articles pointless merry-go-rounds? But allright, show me your evidence, I've probably seen it and refuted it before on one of the merry-go-round passes.--DCAnderson 03:17, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

CNN had a web poll (above) showing over 90% who doubted the official 9/11 story. A few years back, Zogby had one saying I think 49% of New Yorkers (I don't know if city or state, probably the former) thought the government was complicit in the attacks. A more recent article discusses another Zogby poll:

"According to a new Zogby poll, less than half of Americans are convinced that that the events of September 11 have been thoroughly investigated, RAW STORY has learned.

In the telephone survey of 1200 individuals, just 47% agreed that 'the 9/11 attacks were thoroughly investigated and that any speculation about US government involvement is nonsense." Almost as many, 45%, indicated they were more likely to agree "that so many unanswered questions about 9/11 remain that Congress or an International Tribunal should re-investigate the attacks, including whether any US government officials consciously allowed or helped facilitate their success.'"

Found at: http://www.rawstory.com/news/2006/Less_than_half_of_Americans_satisfied_0523.html

In the interest of disclosure, the Zogby polls are funded by 911truth.org. I am not affiliated with either, nor any related formal organization, at least thus far. Although these numbers come from only one source plus a CNN web poll, I am aware of no polls by other organizations to refute it, either. Rather sizeable meetings on the subject have been staged around the country, and there are upcoming concerts in Austin on this theme. Although the television media refuse to acknowledge its existence, there is a substantial and growing minority that hold this view. I suggest that the pervasive media blackout itself should be evidence that something is wrong. I realize this is difficult news for many to hear, and that you may have nothing in your experience to relate it to. This is why I am being patient and deliberate with my request for balance in this article - to give you guys a little time to get over the denial phase that such a substantial minority exists, but is being blacked out from mainstream media. If we simply engage in edit wars, it'll be harder for us to get anything figured out. --ThaThinker 03:23, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

1. Web polls are unreliable.
2. Both Zogby polls are deliberately misleading and put out by 9/11truth.org.
3. Round-and-round we go.--DCAnderson 03:26, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

You think you can wave a magic wand, and say that those polls have no evidential value? It is the only evidence we have on the subject. It is POV to leave out a substantial minority. Do you care to offer evidence to refute me, or can we just disregard you as argumentative? I have no love of disagreeing with people without evidence. I don't intend to participate in such debates. The number of people posting here in support of better balance should also qualify as evidence. Where is your basis for saying the polls are misleading? The thrust of them is pretty obvious. Ironic, isn't it, that you claim to be a Wikipedian against censorship. --ThaThinker 03:32, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Look, there are three or four CNN polls, at least two Zogby polls that you obviously don't give credibility too, but you would have to prove they are invalid(their results are more scientific than your opinion), there are some other polls which I could look up, there are scientists, military experts, government officials, computer experts, journalists, intelligence experts, many of whom are distinguished professionals in their fields with excellent credentials. There have been many mainstream news articles and televion programs regarding this, especially outside of the United States(such as Canada). Can you just admit that the minority is significant and that some of the disagreements should be presented in the article? Or you want sources on this(like you haven't seen them-and would it make a difference to you). SkeenaR 03:38, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

(To Thinker)Wait so your argument is that because your evidence of a significant minority is scarce and not particularly reliable, we should give you guys a handicap just to be fair? And that we should turn a blind-eye to WP:NPOV#Undue weight and other policy just because a lot of single purpose editors come on here and bitch and moan? And that the onus should not be on you guys to provide evidence to prove your point, but that it is on us to provide evidence to disprove it?

Right.--DCAnderson 03:43, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

What about me? I don't I get any baseless rhetoric from you? We have plenty of evidence. If it's evidence regarding the Undue Weight policy we have plenty and you know it. SkeenaR 03:48, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Just because I don't want to spend a lot of time retreading the same ground, here are the threads on other pages where that Zogby poll is discussed:

• [2]
• [3]--DCAnderson 03:51, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

No, that's exactly what you are doing, taking us in another circle. I think the next step is to start adding material, sources and citing policy as it's being done to make sure there are no violations. I am well aware of my limits and boundaries as an editor and I hope others are as well. It looks like this will be a bumpy ride for any who take on the challenge of NPOV'ing this article. SkeenaR 03:59, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Stop reading those foolish conspiracy theory websites...they will warp your mind.--MONGO 04:03, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

"No, that's exactly what you are doing, taking us in another circle."

And you guys are innocent of this? Cause the Zogby poll is a totally new argument for inclusion.--DCAnderson 04:02, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

That was sarcasm, for the curious. I am not interested in keeping this thread going indefinitely. You tried to characterize the minority as insignificant, and I responded, not knowing of your research. New or old, its still evidence. Google on 9/11 and truth, or 9/11 and conspiracy, and you will find MILLIONS of hits, with many of the top ones being critical of the official version. This is evidence too. Nitpicking at the Zogby polls can't make them vanish completely, until we have them by other organizations. The fact that we don't should also seem suspicious to you. The news blackout, and the lack of other polls on the subject doesn't seems suspicious to you? I've given you three evidential items: pools, google hits, and posters here, and you only try to say they are not evidence. --ThaThinker 04:12, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

News blackout and lack of other polls? Are you sure it's a cover up or (drumroll) it just isn't significant.--DCAnderson 04:15, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Criticism is not evidence. Evidence of conspiracy theories belongs on the corresponding page. Evidence supporting conspiracy theories (the demolition ones, at least) has not been found. There is evidence supporting the mainstream account, there is none indicating demolition - it's that simple. Peter Grey 14:01, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

POV? Speculation?

I'm referring to claims such as "nineteen men affiliated with Al-Qaeda hijacked two commercial airliners and flew them into the World Trade Center, causing its collapse" and similar claims. It has not been proven that the "hijackers" were affiliated with Al-Qaeda (in fact some of the alleged hijackers are still alive), and whether or not the planes alone caused the collapse of the towers is likewise up for debate. Just because the government says one thing doesn't discredit anyone who says the opposite. There are several similar claims made throughout the article. NPOV demands that we do not take the patriotic point of view, and make sure it is known that the government's report on the 9/11 attacks are speculatory at best. Don't give an Ameriflag 03:10, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Okay, we'll take out all the facts and add nonsense instead.--MONGO 03:43, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

I don't believe anyone here has asked for that. What is fact and what is nonsense seems to be disputed. What seems beyond dispute, is that a substantial minority is being censored from this page. For Alternate Theories to be added to this page, no removal of "facts" which we would not label as such, is needed. To keep them on a separate page, and remove all government version only statements from this one is the only choice that would require removing anything, unless you guys decide to remove details from the official story. --ThaThinker 03:49, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, and who are you going to use as references for these "alternative theories"?--MONGO 03:55, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

I've answered this already. Mainstream sources such as mainstream news items, Congressional websites and the Congressional record, and mainstream documentaries. --ThaThinker 04:14, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

You want nonsense? Then argue that a plane can singlehandedly destroy a steel-framed building. And when people see through that shit, just blame it on "weird construction". Don't give an Ameriflag 05:16, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Accuracy & Balance

This article is nothing more than spin. Any amendments made adding in "verifiable" information contradicting the US government's version of events, is simply deleted.

This article is not "verifiaable information"...it is a one-sided piece composed of selected propaganda.

Okay...time for a little snack so you feel better.--MONGO 04:16, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, but unlike you, I'm not against the idea of posting the government's version as a possible theory; I simply want all of the possible theories to be reported in this article. None of them necessarily as fact. I don't want one (1) of the possible theories to be written as fact and the others to be arbitrarily dismissed as conspiracy theories. The term conspiracy theory is just a blanket assertion that the government and people like you like to hide behind so you don't have to give credibility to anything we say. Don't give an Ameriflag 04:43, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

The reason that 9/11 conspiracy theories are quickly dismissed is because they have been trivially refuted by numerous independent researchers, i.e. they have been demonstrated to be false. -- Huysman^{talk| contribs} 16:33, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Disagreements that are held by a significant minority. SkeenaR 06:54, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Demonstrated by whom to be false? You listen to me, there's no way a 180-story steel framed building's going down because of a plane flying into it.

Try 110 stories. -- Huysman^{talk| contribs} 11:26, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

They were designed to withstand that.

From FEMA: The Boeing 707 that was considered in the design of the towers was estimated to have a gross weight of 263,000 pounds and a flight speed of 180 mph as it approached an airport; the Boeing 767-200ER aircraft that were used to attack the towers had an estimated gross weight of 274,000 pounds and flight speeds of 470 to 590 mph upon impact. -- Huysman^{talk| contribs} 11:26, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

There's no way a Boeing 757 vaporized itself at the Pentagon. That's scientifically impossible. Kerosene simply does not get hot enough.

There were plenty of 757 remains (fuselage, wheel rim, compressor rotor, engine, door, landing gear, lettered debris, etc.) that were photographed at the site so your statement is misleading. -- Huysman^{talk| contribs} 13:01, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Why are there all these questions that are still unanswered? Who warned Mayor Brown not to fly on September 11?

Brown, to anyone in the plot, was obviously in no danger and so the warning was unnecessary if it was by a conspirator. Brown said it was nothing extraordinary and that's why he chose to fly! There was a worldwide Sept. 7 warning about terrorist attacks overseas, that one of Brown's security people informed him about just as routine would have it. Bottom line: the person who warned Mr. Brown had no clue that 9/11 would happen. -- Huysman^{talk| contribs} 11:26, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

If a 757 hit the Pentagon, why won't the FBI release the videotapes taken from surveiilance cameras which would prove the truth? Why did the 757 that hit the Pentagon knock light poles out of the ground when other planes that have hit light poles got their wings torn apart? Why was there molten steel at ground zero when the fires didn't get hot enough to melt steel? Why was all of the debris immediately trucked off of the scene and destroyed before it could be proven that no explosives were present in the columns? If the government has nothing to hide, why don't they just tell us these things? Don't give an Ameriflag 15:14, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

I need to chill out?

I'm not the one getting upset about an "allegedly" being placed where it belongs, because there is as much evidence that the hijackers were Al-Qaeda as there is that they werne't. We're here posting facts, not propaganda. Don't give an Ameriflag 04:26, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

That the hijackers were trained al Qaeda is a proven fact. Who do you think they were? -- Huysman^{talk| contribs} 16:24, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

With edit summaries like:

• "Don't rv war here - some of the attackers are alive. How can you claim to be a Wikipedian and still want to say such things as fact?"
• "THERE IS NO PROOF!! STOP IT!"

the answer is, yes, you need to chill.--DCAnderson 04:30, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

The latter, yes. But the former (which was the latter chronologically)? How is that not chill? What['s wrong with saying "allegedly" anyway? Which are you more afraid of, being branded a terrorist, or a liar? Don't give an Ameriflag 04:38, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

"How is that not chill?"

"How can you claim to be a Wikipedian.."

WP:NPA

"What['s wrong with saying "allegedly" anyway?"

No significant group that says otherwise. Plus, Bin Laden admitted to it repeatedly.

"Which are you more afraid of, being branded a terrorist, or a liar?"

???--DCAnderson 04:42, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

"No significant group that says otherwise."

Oh, we're not significant is that right? We're just fruitcake conspiracy theorists who are paranoid about little green men, is that right?

"Plus, Bin Laden admitted to it repeatedly"

It was never proven to be him. Most of the time his confessions are in the form of extremely poor video or completely audio recordings. The first video depicts a guy who doesn't even look like Bin Laden, wore a gold ring, and wrote with his right hand. He's also claimed that it wasn't him. If you think this is evidence, then maybe the fruitcake is you. Don't give an Ameriflag 04:47, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Maybe bin Laden is a righty or ambidextrous and the FBI is simply mistaken! There is another video of bin Laden writing with his right hand and there are plenty of videos showing a person who is undeniably OBL wearing a gold ring! Bin Laden wasn't interviewed personally, so the Taliban could've written the denial, maybe to call into question justification for the Afghan war. Bin Laden at the time told an interviewer to turn off the tape recorder and then told him that he was responsible. Besides the person who is clearly bin Laden in the 12/13/01 video, there are other al Qaeda leaders. Al-Qaeda took responsibility for 9/11 numerous times. There have been 16+ explicit post-9/11 claims of responsibility for 9/11 by al-Qaeda, bin Laden, etc. following his 9/16/01 "denial":

-10/7/01 Osama bin Laden [4] -10/9/01 Suleiman Abu Ghaith [5] -10/14/01 Osama bin Laden [6] -10/27/01 Suleiman Abu Ghaith [7] -2/02 Osama bin Laden [8] -4/02 Ahmed Alhaznawi and other 9/11 hijackers – these martyrdom videos contradict the claim that the hijackers are still alive, their identities were stolen, etc. [9] -9/10/02 Osama bin Laden and others [10] -9/02 Ayman Al Zawahiri [11] -10/02 Ramzi Binalshibh and Khalid Shaikh Mohammed [12] -3/03 Osama bin Laden [13] -9/21/03 Abu Muhammad al-Ablaj [14] -8/04 Abu Jandal [15] -10/30/04 Osama bin Laden [16] -9/12/05 Adam Gadahn [17] -- Huysman^{talk| contribs} 16:24, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

This isn't some blog, so go peddle your baloney elsewhere. Get an education first so you don't appear so ignorant.--MONGO 05:24, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

MONGO, I think your constant and unnecessary badgering of the conspiracy theorists on this page contributes to the difficulty we seem to have keeping things civil. --rehpotsirhc ^{█♣█ ▪ Talk} 05:52, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

I see, so trolls that post nonsense here are to be accorded equal footing with someone that presents an intelligent and sane opinion on how to improve the article? Did you have something constructive to add?--MONGO 06:47, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

I'll hear you out Mongo, when your not calling people trolls or flinging abbreviations at everyone. SkeenaR 06:59, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Well, if the shoe fits, wear it.--MONGO 07:34, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

I'm attempting to use information in accordance with policy and I am open to reasonable discussion. Are you? SkeenaR 07:40, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Not if you intend to cite POV websites that are controlled by a few contributors. Which historically have been what you seem to draw your conclusions from.--MONGO 07:45, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Mongo, I'm not sure which conclusions your talking about unless you are referring to my comments about the Undue Weight policy. There are disagreements with the material in this article that are held by a significant minority and they they have to be presented according to policy. SkeenaR 08:00, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

I see a few folks that come here and argue the same stuff, and the same issues are demostrated. If there was any strength to your minority argument, then the conspiratorial issues would garner a lot more mainstream press and other reputable reference based sources. Just because you may believe that the events of 9/11 do not jive with the known evidence, does not mean that those that agree with you are more than an insignificant minority.--MONGO 08:06, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Mongo, your comments about mainstream press coverage are pure opinion. I have yet to see you legitimatley dispute any point made about the Undue Weight policy. SkeenaR 08:14, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Okay, so long as your junk science looniness stays out of these articles, I am content. You can ramble on all you want on the talk pages, until of course you get disruptive. Expect to find all POV pushers of nonsense blocked in due time.--MONGO 08:40, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Please try to be civil. There needs to be more information in the article and I will put it there. I'm not trying to push pov, or "junk science". Please tell me why you called me a "looney". SkeenaR 09:04, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Zogby poll for instance...it was solicited by a conspiracy theorists...we have discussed this matter, ad nauseum, have we not? If not on this page, certainly on others. You are Canadian are you not...see Loonie.--MONGO 09:33, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Used to be that I felt like the odd-man-out here. Skee-man, don't take it so seriously, it's just effing Wikipedia. Morton devonshire 07:51, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Thanks Morton, but everythings cool. I could go play PS2 or something but I find this more enjoyable believe it or not. My girlfriend left me for Stephen Harper(better not tell his wife) SkeenaR 08:07, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

He is kinda cute. Morton devonshire 17:33, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, in that Dick Cheney-as-alien-lizard-man kinda way. Yeesch! MortonsSockpuppet 17:36, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Civility lost?

What is going on here? Why the name calling, the vituperatives and other nonsense? If there are conspiracy theories and these are described in the article as such, what is the problem? ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 15:08, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

vituperative-"Using, containing, or marked by harshly abusive censure." SkeenaR 16:16, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Omitted Material and Political Bias

There are a substantial amount of facts and associated material, from verifiable sources, that is not covered in this article. It presents an "glossed over" version of events by omitting all the incosistancies and the implications. Not to mention isolating 9/11 attacks from the Global context over the last 40 years.

As such, it falls under the catagory of propaganda, instead of a comprehensive answer from a "global encyclopedia".

This is not a political tool.

Give some examples, but not ones that have long been discredited. -- Huysman^{talk| contribs} 11:23, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Great. We appreciate that. We can give you plenty. --ThaThinker 15:39, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Thus far you haven't given any facts contradicting the official account. -- Huysman^{talk| contribs} 16:28, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

As Thinker said "What is fact and what is nonsense seems to be disputed. What seems beyond dispute, is that a substantial minority is being censored from this page." SkeenaR 16:35, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

The "substantial minority's" claims have been definitively debunked and yet they are free to engage in discussion on this talk page or contribute to the 9/11 conspiracy theories page. No one has any trouble finding that page if they are interested. -- Huysman^{talk| contribs} 16:38, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

The supposed 'evidence' is based on flawed (if not outright dishonest) engineering. Engineering conclusions can be challenged on their scientific merits, but they are not open to political debate. Political opinions (those in good faith, at least) should be respected, but errors of fact should not. Peter Grey 20:12, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Whether they've been debunked or not is not at issue. The Flat Earth theory is not excluded from the Earth page. This theory has more of substance to it than that one, and yet you guys keep this page POV, and exclude it. It is only the opinion of the majority that these theories have been debunked, and many of them haven't studied the subject very extensively; but that does not justify this idea not being mentioned on this page. This page is POV, and you are unwilling to allow such facts as may exist that might tend to undermine the official point of view to be mentioned on this page. I think we are at a POV impasse. I mean, on you guys' self description, you guys say how you're POV against 911 "conspriacy theoriests", and that is fine and well, but the Wikipeda requires you share "your" page with those of other viewpoints, especially when it is the main article on those events. There is substantial evidence of forewarnings suppressed by the 9/11 Commission, many former government officials and agents have come out and denounced the official version, and all those secondary explosions reported by people just before the buildings collapsed, that aren't being mentioned here, and should be. --ThaThinker 04:48, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

But we are people who have studied it extensively. I used to be a 9/11 conspiracist and I am ashamed to say that I got a 9/11 Truth award for "young newcomers." I held these views for over 20 months and spent hours a day researching! After more research and a look at the other side I realized that my 9/11 conspiracism was wrong and I recanted it. I stress again that items like controlled demolition/no 757 at the Pentagon/remote control planes/living hijackers/fake phone calls/Flight 93 shootdown are not facts! The issues you mention have their own pages and again they are easily accessible and not disguised or hidden or anything like that. -- Huysman^{talk| contribs} 19:47, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

From Earth:

"A 19th-century organization called the Flat Earth Society advocated the even-then discredited idea that the Earth was actually disc-shaped, with the North Pole at its center and a 150-foot (50 meter) high wall of ice at the outer edge. It and similar organizations continued to promote this idea, based on religious beliefs and conspiracy theories, through the 1970s. Today, the subject is more frequently treated tongue-in-cheek or with mockery.

Prior to the introduction of space flight, these inaccurate beliefs were countered with deductions based on observations of the secondary effects of the Earth's shape and parallels drawn with the shape of other planets."

So it gets four sentences. One of them says how the theories are mocked.

This page:

"Since the attacks, various conspiracy theories have emerged. These include speculation that individuals in the government of the United States knew of the impending attacks and failed to act on that knowledge, or that they actually planned the attacks. Some of those questioning the mainstream account of 9/11 have speculated that the collapse of the World Trade Center was caused by explosives. Some also contend that a commercial airliner did not crash into the Pentagon, and that United Airlines Flight 93 was shot down."

Also gets four sentences. All of them are neutral.--DCAnderson 05:07, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Ok, I stand corrected. It does mention it, but this idea is more subsantial than four sentences. This doesn't begin to describe the fishy aspects of the attacks. If 45% of the people in the Zogby poll believe something is fishy about the idea, the provide me another poll, or else we should at least get about 20%. This idea has much more going for it than you give it credit for: Able Danger, the Pheonix Memo, Mousoui reported on an expired visa by FBI agents in Minnisota, the FBI agents who warned David Schippers, former lead councel in Bill Clinton's impeachment being warned, the mayor of San Francisco being reportedly warned by Condi Rice, as the Chronicle says it was told on Pacifica Radio. All these things are factual, and have not been debunked, whatever the ultimate judgment of history on the matter. Can't you guys quit playing politics, and let a more balanced view emerge? Again, the Steering Committee of the Families of the 9/11 Victims published a list of questions, many of which weren't even addressed by th 9/11 Commission at all. Can't you respect their wishes? --ThaThinker 05:24, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Al the things you mention appear in 9/11 conspiracy theories. That is pretty generous under WP:NPOV#Undue weight.--DCAnderson 05:29, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

These things are included in detail in that article as per the title. In this article, things that are unverifiable, alleged or disputed must be presented as such according to policy. SkeenaR 05:33, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Examples?--DCAnderson 05:35, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

So lets begin with things that seem factual, and go from there. --ThaThinker 05:35, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Unless people have some favorites, which might seem pov, I suggest working our way down the page from top to bottom. SkeenaR 05:37, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

I'll check for junk like self references first. That didn't take long. SkeenaR 05:45, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

There are no self references allowed as per policy. Being the big bug on policy I thought you knew that. SkeenaR 05:46, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

And if some of us check for mistakes like that while others look for refrences, we will speed the process of improving this article. SkeenaR 05:48, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

I hate to break it to you, but there were three citations for that statement.--DCAnderson 05:52, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

That's cool DC, we can add stuff later if we need to. We should check for sources and remove garbage in the meantime. I hope your sudden removal of that other piece wasn't some kind of retaliation. I'm assuming good faith. SkeenaR 05:54, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Here is what I removed [18] believe me it wasn't retaliation. Somebody had added it earlier tonight, and it was bugging me.--DCAnderson 06:01, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

I don't mean to make this an excercise in pedanticism, but I was cited myself for a violation by providing a link exactly like what you just did in a different article. What is the difference between a self-refrence and a fixed internal link? SkeenaR 06:02, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

What are you talking about? That wasn't a citation, that was an internal link. They're what makes Wikipedia work. I don't know what incident you're talking about, but I don't see how it is relevant here.--DCAnderson 06:05, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Take it easy man, I just remember somebody said we can't use wikipedia as a self reference and I think they are right. If I was making a mistake in this case, that's not a problem, I just wanted some clarification on that. SkeenaR 06:09, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Ok, I see what you mean. You were right. SkeenaR 06:11, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Archiving

This talk page should be archived soon because it is becoming too long. -- Huysman^{talk| contribs} 16:43, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Not only that, but the word "censure" appears here too many times for people to see. SkeenaR 16:47, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Neutrality tag

goes up. As per discussion the neutrality of this article is disputed because of some unverified facts being presented as verified and because of ommisions of verifiable material that is in contradiction with some information presented here. SkeenaR 06:42, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Or I'll take it down. Let's try for progress first. SkeenaR 06:43, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

hijackers' letter

You removed all this detail, with refs, along with my (okay, it was lengthy essaying, just striving for balance) explanation, etc. But I think it's pretty important, since this 9/11 start page has virtually nothing about the guys who actually did it. Maybe the blockquote can go in ref notes, since it's a bit long? Seems a disservice to not even mention the letter in the article. Also, there needs to be something core like this to counter all the wrong western bias about cause and effect (former troops in SA, U.S. support of Israel, etc.) that is so prevalent in the article, but that is just western wishful thinking, that if only we could learn how to appease them enough, they would stop attacking us, you know. The hijackers' letter gives better insight into what is really in their heads about flying planes into buildings, just presented as is, without commentary. So, here it is,

On September 28, 2001, the FBI held a Press Conference, during which they released an untranslated handwritten 4-page "hijackers' letter" written in Arabic and found in three separate copies at Dulles, the Pennsylvania crash site, and in Mohamed Atta's suitcase. It included Islamic prayers, instructions for a last night of life, and a practical checklist of final reminders for the mission. translated: The British newspaper The Observer published this translation, provided for The New York Times by Capital Communications Group, a Washington-based international consulting firm, and by Imad Musa, a translator. The writer of the letter may not be known. But clearly, it was found in multiple locations, and so the text was of importance to at least several of the hijackers, on the last day. Some notable excerpts:

..."Make an oath to die and renew your intentions..."... "Check your weapon before you leave and long before you leave. (You must make your knife sharp and must not discomfort your animal during the slaughter). " ... "All of their equipment and gates and technology will not prevent, nor harm, except by God's will. The believers do not fear such things. ..." ... "When the confrontation begins, strike like champions who do not want to go back to this world. Shout, 'Allahu Akbar,' because this strikes fear in the hearts of the non-believers. God said: 'Strike above the neck, and strike at all of their extremities.' Know that the gardens of paradise are waiting for you in all their beauty, and the women of paradise are waiting, calling out, 'Come hither, friend of God.' They have dressed in their most beautiful clothing..." ... "If you slaughter, do not cause the discomfort of those you are killing, because this is one of the practices of the prophet, peace be upon him..." ... "Do not seek revenge for yourself. Strike for God's sake..." ... "Then implement the way of the prophet in taking prisoners. Take prisoners and kill them. As Almighty God said: 'No prophet should have prisoners until he has soaked the land with blood... " ... "How beautiful it is for one to read God's words, such as: 'And those who prefer the afterlife over this world should fight for the sake of God.' And His words: 'Do not suppose that those who are killed for the sake of God are dead; they are alive ... '." ... "Either end your life while praying, seconds before the target, or make your last words: 'There is no God but God, Muhammad is His messenger'."

...end of hijackers' letter excerpts. So, does at least some well-deserved part of this go back in? Steven Russell 08:28, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Maybe check out Islamofascism or try adding a link to that article. SkeenaR 09:04, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

It would probably fit into either of these articles:

• Background history of the September 11, 2001 attacks
• Planning of the September 11, 2001 attacks--DCAnderson 16:40, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

My observation: I came to this article looking for the basics: Who, What, Where, When, Why. Instead, I find myself wading through a lot of material that has to do with all sorts of extraneous concepts, alternative theories, long-term aftermaths entirely outside of Manhattan, investigations, analyses, and below, yet more argument about even further far afield things to put in here. Granted, some of it belongs, but not at the expense of burying or moving off-page the elements of Who, What, Where, When, and Why. And How.Steven Russell 03:10, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

So I produced excerpts of a letter, which was publicly released with great fanfare into the mainstream, no more than two and a half weeks later, by the U.S. government, a letter that the "Who" (19 ARAB hijackers, so where is the Template:911hijack here?) had on their persons, on the day of (the "When", the very day) the attacks (the "What", that is, 50-90% of this article should be nothing more than full expansion of the mainstream proven events themselves, such as, for instance, that the letter was on the person of at least two of the hijackers), one left in the car at the airport (the "Where", airport parking lot, on the plane, in the hotel room), and the other in the Flight 93 plane upon impact, and a third left in Atta's suitcase the night before, yet there is no room here for any of this "What" or "Where" about the letter? The "Why" is best covered on the day of the attack in the place of the attack by the attackers in the very words that they left to explain themselves, not for us as readers, but for themselves as readers explaining to themselves and justifying to themselves WHY they were flying planes into buildings. It's as close as anybody is ever going to get to the inside of their heads.Steven Russell 03:10, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

So frankly, the suggestions that a better place for the letter is somewhere off the main page strikes me as odd. Granted, it could use some better presentation, but this is where such material belongs. Again, it was a critical element on the persons of the attackers as they attacked and it explained their reasonings. And the source is highly public, highly governmental, highly verifiable, and highly mainstream. My understanding of Wikipedia is that it is supposed to be above all, full of mainstream reputability, and not merely a balance-counterbalance of every side argument and obscure minority theory in the entire universe of fringe ideas. Just my observation, that this article has become much of the latter, and less of the former.Steven Russell 03:10, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

--ThaThinker 01:54, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

The Proposed Alternative Theories Section

Outline of Proposed Alternative Theories Section:

I. Reports of Foreknowledge
        Abel Danger - Intelligence program which had identified Mohammed Atta and probable 
            terror cell in Brooklin before 9/11 was blocked from being reported to the FBI.
        The Pheonix Memo - A document released under the Freedom of Information Act has
            AZ FBI agent writing report about Osama probable associated persons at flight 
            school, and urgently urges investigation of other flight schools as well
        Cathleen Rowley - Minneapolis FBI agent reports Moussaoui suspected as terrorist by
            flight instructor, and wanted by Al Qaeda in Paris, and is ignored.
        David Schippers - lead councel for Clinton's impeachment, says FBI agents were warning 
            impending attack, and getting ignored.  One said the date of the attack was widely 
            known within FBI
        Henry Waxman - Requested yet other foreknowledge documents from 9/11 Commission, but 
            despite his being on the Government Reform Committee, was denied
        Sibel Edmunds - Extensive article appeared in Vanity Fair about being gagged with 
            important 9/11 information.
        (Many others exist, but space prevents all being listed.)
II. Background Information
        Bin Laden at first denies responsibility for the 9/11 attacks.  The Pentagon then 
            releases a video with poor resolution in which he seems to confess, except many 
            of the things in the sub-titles are not in original Arabic.  Government sources 
            subsequently released an audio only confession by Bin Laden.
        PNAC document in 2000 suggests "a new Pearl Harbor-like event" might accelerate  
            U.S. plans in the Mideast
        Condi Rice says "we" had no idea Al-Qaeda might attack by airplanes, despite FAA and 
            other drills for just such a scenario.  She later changes this to "I" had no idea 
            they might attack by airplanes, leaving the question of who else knew of these 
            drills open.
        Link to list of serious questions about 9/11 by the Steering Committee of the Families 
            of the 9/11 Victims
III. Peculiar aspects of the attacks
        The two towers collapsed suddenly, at nearly free-fall speed, one a little under an hour,
            the other a little over an hour later.  By this time, at least one of the fires had 
            subsided enough for people to stand in the gaping hole left by the plane, awaiting 
            rescue.  When each building in its time collapsed, each collapsed straight down, 
            causing minimal damage to nearby buildings.
        Reports of secondary explosions before towers fell in local papers, and in firemen's 
            communications
        Wreckage removed quickly after underfunded investigation
        Designer of towers said buidlings were built to withstand impact of one, and could 
            probably survive six impacts of 707's
        No other structural steel buildings have ever collapsed on account of fire
        Many of supposed 9/11 attackers reported alive
        (Future expansion: the flashes of light on WTC1 and WTC2 just before the planes hit)
        Building Seven also collapses neatly later that day at 4:00PM, almost demolition style,
            killing workers still in building, reportedly on accout of fire
        Reports of a white jet and mid-air explosion, when flight 93 reportedly crashed 
            into the ground 
        Two videos of Pentagon attack fail to produce convincing evidence of a Boeing
IV. Dissenting government officials, experts and celebreties who have come forward
       Five former government officials or important appointees have denounced the official story. 
         By way of contrast, Nixon officials went public on Watergate only after intense 
         Congressional investigation.
           David Bowman -  Claims to have been Director of Advanced Space Programs 
               Development for the Air Force Space Division until 1978 under Carter and Ford 
               (and no official source has yet repudiated this claim), says concerning new 
               intereptor flight procedures issued just before 9/11 (which newly required 
               administration officials in order to OK not just shoot-downs, but any and all 
               interceptions), if they had only have done nothing, the attacks would never have 
               succeeded.  He calls actions that allowed it to happen, treason.  Calls Bush 
               a renegade president.
           Ray McGovern - Former CIA analyst, used to prepare Reagan's and then Bush Sr.'s 
               Presidential Daily Briefs, calls for Bush Jr's resignation over 9/11.
           Former FBI Director Louis Freeh - 9/11 was "an inside job"
           Morgan Reynolds - Former cheif economist at Bush Jr.'s Dept. of Labor, recenty 
               resigned, and said he thought 9/11 was an inside job
           Sgt. Eric Haney - founder of the Army's elite Delta Force unit, says "The reasons of 
               this administration for taking this nation to war were not what they stated."
       Leon Minetta - Places Cheney at control center of the Pentagon when plane hit, 
           contradicting Cheney's own account
       Russ Whittenberg - Former Air Force and airline pilot, says Pentagon maneuver impossible 
           for an inexperienced pilot
       Sampling of celebreties who have denounced the official account of 9/11 - Charlie Sheen, 
           Ed Asner, Sharon Stone, Ed Beagley (of St. Elsewhere), James Woods (117 major film 
           credits), and Dean Haglund (the X-Files).

The towers did not fall at free-fall speed; just watch the videos of the collapses. -- Huysman^{talk| contribs} 12:50, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Even if an item has been debunked, that does not justify censoring it. Things which tend to debunk it can be listed in this section as well. This should allow this article to include opinions of a significant minority who does not feel that most of these items have been debunked. Whether many of them are right or not, we feel we cannot know until a more thorough investigation is completed. --ThaThinker 20:49, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

In other words, lies and falsehoods should be included, and half truths should be listed in this section as well. Everything you posted is a lie or mistruth...but the best - Dean Haglund as Agent Moulder? I think David Duchovny might be upset. --Mmx1 21:13, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

If something is non-notable or has been debunked, it belongs in 9/11 conspiracy theories. Everything you list can allready be found there.--DCAnderson 20:53, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Please,no. I understand your point, but if something is non-notable or has been debunked it belongs on his blog, not 9/11 conspiracy theories. That is, at least in theory, part of the encyclopedia. Tom Harrison ^Talk 21:41, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

The Madrid Windsor tower endured a partial collapse when the steel melted due to fire. See this picture. The tower did not totally collapse because its structural strength due to concrete was much greater than that of WTC 1, 2, and 7. -- Huysman^{talk| contribs} 19:38, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

"Reports of explosions." Never mind the fact that the sounds could be high-voltage electrical gear/transformers, steel bolts, immense concrete floors slamming onto each other, rivets, bodies landing on cars, etc. -- Huysman^{talk| contribs} 20:07, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

It appears that many things that are there, do not belong there. For example, whether Abel Danger comes out to be true or not, ultimately, we have people that said it. It is in the Congressional Record. It's a matter of public knowledge. I don't think a definitive investigation has ever been completed, nor has it been satisfactorilly been debunked. If so, tell me where. It certainly does not belong on a page only for debunked theories, at least as yet. No lies, at least on my part anyway, but that was a mistake. My apologies to David Duchovny. These are the things that MUST be included, or this article is BAD POV. Why do you fear having lies and falsehoods here, if it is a significant point of view, and the information that debunks it is here? I was being generous. I maintain that you can't debunk that, e.g. Charlie Sheen or these other people denounced the official story, because even mainstream press says thay did. What is it issue is whether they are right, and I say, lets present the facts, and let the people decide for themselves. Why are you afraid of telling both sides of the story? --ThaThinker 21:10, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Kevin Ryan did not certify steel for UL....he tested water quality. Robert(not david) Bowman did not direct Star Wars. He directed some little program prior to Star Wars with no direct link. Morgan Reynolds was an economist at the Bureau of Labor, not the "head". The fires at WTC were not "under control" ... practically nothing was done about the fires and I doubt the firefighters even reached it before the word came to get out. Designer of towers said they would withstand "one" 707, a smaller plane. No workers in WTC 7 when it collapsed. I could go on and on. The rest is heresay and speculation

You apparently aren't in the same reality I'm in. --Mmx1 21:32, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

This is good. Lets update my outline with corrected versions of these events, and get such facts as remain standing, up. I want to be disabused of any illusions. This does not entirely exempt Bowman's expertise, as I know I heard him claim to be an interceptor pilot, and he knew what the proceedures used to be, and what they were changed to. --ThaThinker 21:39, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

When Bowman was a pilot....Kennedy was President, bell-bottoms were in fashion, and a computer took up a room. He has been retired for 30 years and has not worked in the defense sphere. It's a stretch to say he knows what the current procedures are. He also has a credibility problem, as half the medals he claims to have won don't exist, and he has been caught lying about his SAME medals. --Mmx1 21:53, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Here are some of the statements from your outline and my opinions on them: "PNAC document suggests "a new Pearl Harbor-like event might accelerate U.S. plans in the Mideast"

• While it could be argued that PNAC benifited politically from 9/11, there is no reliable source that indicates that they had any part in causing it. Mentioning them and this memo in this article is essentially Original Research as the memo says nothing about 9/11.

"Bin Laden at first denies responsibility for the 9/11 attacks."

This is true and I see no particualr reason not to mention it. (In fact it allready is mentioned)

"a video with poor resolution in which he seems to confess, except many of the things in the sub-titles are not in original Arabic."

This however is essentially Original research.

"Link to list of serious questions about 9/11 by the Steering Committee of the Families of the 9/11 Victims"

Non-notable fringe group, mentioned in other articles as per WP:NPOV#Undue weight.

Most of the things regarding the WTC under section III are mischarecterizations from Steven E. Jones. He is most definitely a fringe minority, and he is discussed in other articles. His theories allready do get a one sentence mention in this article.

"Reports of a white jet and mid-air explosion, when flight 93 (?) reportedly crashed into the ground"

Throw me a link to this one.

Most of the celebrities are not worth mentioning, as they are not really experts on anything.--DCAnderson 22:13, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

The wikipedia article on Bowman says: "former Director of Advanced Space Programs Development for the U.S. Air Force in the Ford and Carter administrations". Director. The Wikipedia page on Bowman says nothing about these non-existent medals, only listing ones he received. The idea that the "new Pearl Harbor" statement refers to 9/11 is NOT original with me. The idea that the the first confession video is of dubious quality is NOT original with me. Overseas papers ran a story on how a number of the phrases the Pentagon said were there, in the subtitles, were not there. I haven't run across Stephen E. Jones, and I've seen a lot of these ideas MANY places. If I found a flake that supported the official version, should we dismiss it? I'll have to study some more to come to my own conclusion on Ryan's expertise, but we might could replace that with a better item. Eric Haney, founder of the Army's elite Delta Force unit, who says the war on terrorism is bogus would be a good substitute. At first, I thought there was a relevency problem, but then again, the War on Terror began with the 9/11 attacks. A number of the items on the "9/11 conspiracy theories" DO seem factual, whether their claims can ultimately be verified or will be refuted. If that is a page for debunked items, the best of them need representation here. Also, mention of what appear to be squibs was left of my outline. It is really presented for other 9/11 skeptics and 9/11 skeptic debunkers as a starting point for fixing this page's POV problem. The whole section need not be that long, as most items need only a sentence or two. Then, I think most 9/11 skeptics will agree, the "9/11 Conspiracy Theories" page has a POV title, and should somehow be subsumed as a sub-page of Alternate Theories, and/or a new Debunked Theories and Hypotheses page. We should have mention of the cream of the crop items on this page, where they haven't been debunked. Although celebreties are not experts, we still think it is important for the public to know that many are coming forward. Can better items be found, and some of these ideas debunked? Probably. Are there better points that could be brought out, which should get precidence over some here? Probably. Yet, most of them remain viable, at the end of the day, and are being censored, against Wikipedia policy, from this page. --ThaThinker 23:41, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

I would be opposed to the inclusion of any "alternative theories" section, as we already have a 9/11 conspiracy theories article on Wikipedia. In addition, none of the alternative theories can be verified by reputable sources (see WP:RS), nor are they verifiable (see WP:V) -- that's the reason they're over at 9/11 conspiracy theories, because it's encyclopedic to describe unverifiable conspiracy theories as conspiracy theories, but not encyclopedic to describe them as factual. In contrast, all of the information in this article can be verified through reputable, objective sources. It's not censorship, it's Wikipedia policy that drives this. Morton devonshire 00:38, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

It is not true that they are not verifiable. They are. People have built scale model mockups of the floor sections of the WTC, to see if they can be burned by flames. Much of this stuff IS verifiable, if 9/11 terrorists here in the US if FBI agents had already been reported to superiors. Nice try. Invalid agrument for exclusion. It IS verifiable if various people denounced the official theory. --ThaThinker 01:54, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Who built these models? If you're talking about the Corus study (just a guess) that study was started way before 9/11, and had nothing to do with WTC.--DCAnderson 01:57, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Ramifications of 9/11, as a proposed major split

As stated above, this article neees to get WAAAAAAAAAYYYYYYYYYY back to basics, WHO, WHAT, WHERE, WHEN, WHY, and HOW. Just basic irrefutable facts, highly mainstream, highly verifiable and highly reputable. So I propose a major split: Essentially the entire bottom half of this article deals with almost extraneous ideas that spring off of the attack itself. The attack is the attack, nothing more, as the home page here for this whole thing. This should be the place where people go on Wikipedia to get the very basics, and nothing more. So my proposal for the split of all the bottom half extraneous material that is currently there: It all sticks together cohesively as "Ramifications of 9-11." Everything from cleanups, speeches, wars on terror, conspiracy theories, backstories, further agendas, world opinions, and on and on and on in a neverending series of subarticles. But just keep this basic page to the fundamental five W's, and the H. Feedback, please.Steven Russell 03:25, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

The conspiracy junk deserves almost zero attention and should be merely linked to, as I think you are suggesting. I agree that the letters and Atta info deservesa brief mention, but it appears to qualify as an article unto itself, with a link from here perhaps. Going into major detials of the letter would distract us from the focus.--MONGO 03:28, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Granted that different excerpts from the letter belong to different articles or areas. My main point is that it is a key fact of the day of the attack in the place by the persons, and yet it gets entirely obliterated here in lieu of extraneous material such as conspiracy theories. I do like the "Ramifications" as a catchall title to branch all of that other stuff off of. As I said, I come here looking for the BASIC knowledge about that day, place, persons, time, and method. I had a heck of a time even finding the list of attackers, which of all places should have been here.Steven Russell 03:43, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

This is an encyclopedia, not a dictionary. Context IS important. WWII is not just the battles, but also the causes, and a huge section on the aftermath. Some pages like the Organizers of the September 11, 2001 attacks should be better linked, but the current division of content is appropriate.--Mmx1 03:47, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

I could see that, but not excluding the opinions of a signficiant minority to the extent that they are treated as a tiny minority on this page. It really comes off sounding one-sided. --ThaThinker 05:22, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Hardcore Evidence

I've been running an analysis of the claims made by Professor Steven Jones', Professor of Physics at BYU and former principle scientist for Muon catalysed fusion with the US Department of Energy.

Why Indeed Did the WTC Buildings Collapse?

By Steven E. Jones, Department of Physics and Astronomy, Brigham Young University,

http://www.physics.byu.edu/research/energy/htm7.html

This paper has multiple peer-reviews and no one, as yet, has been able to come close to debunking the material, nor been able to approach it at a scientific level. It can be a difficult read, as the implications of the numerous scientific claims are not apparent to the layman or casual observer.

The bottom line is that solid scientific material exists, that suggests either an alternative scenario, or a hidden scenario under the guise of the attacks.

This must be covered for accuracy and balance.

His work isn't even published by a reliable source, so it fails WP:RS--MONGO 11:01, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Right. The work of Jones, who has no expertise on building collapse forensics, was published in the Marxist publication Research in Political Economy, Vol. 23. BYU civil engineers reject Jones' claims. -- Huysman^{talk| contribs} 19:52, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Debunking the alleged evidence

Of course the material has been debunked. Steven Jones raises 13 points; here are the problems with them:
1. Equally valid observation for both catastrophic failure and controlled demolition
2. WTC 7, not relevant to WTC 1 and WTC 2.
3. Same as (1).
4. Fact about unrelated circumstances.
5. Observation consistent with catastrophic failure and not controlled demolition
6. Same as (1).
7. Same as (1).
8. Same as (1).
9. Same as (5).
10. Same as (5).
11. Based on flawed assumption.
12. Objection to NIST procedure, unrelated to actual tower collapse.
13. Same as (12).

1. Equally valid observation for both catastrophic failure and controlled demolition

Nonsense. Molten metal has never been observed in any "catastrphic failure". You'd be better off denying molten metal, like DCAnderson and others.

2. WTC 7, not relevant to WTC 1 and WTC 2.

Yes, the sulfidation and very high temperatures in this reference are about WTC7. Other than incidiaries, what could explain them? Just saying this doesn't apply to WTC1 & 2 aviods the issue.

3. Same as (1).

Nonsense. Symmetrical collapse requires all vertical columns to fail at the same time, or at least for a majority of them to fail in a symmetrical pattern. Second Law of Thermodynamics excludes this from random causes, such as impact damage and fire.

4. Fact about unrelated circumstances.

Nonsense. No previous skyscapers have collapsed from fire in over 100 years of history, then 3 collapse in one day, and you find this "unrelated"? I'd say it is very related.

5. Observation consistent with catastrophic failure and not controlled demolition

Jets of smoke are observed exiting WTC7 horizontally, floor by floor, starting at about floor 42, and proceeding upwards all the way to the top floor 47, spaced about .2 seconds apart. These floors have not collapsed relative to each other, so is hard to explain absent explosives. Yet, it is perfectly consistent with controlled demolition, and resembles many of them.

6. Same as (1).

Early antenna drop indicates the core structure failed first. If not from demolition, why would the strongest part fail first?

7. Same as (1).

A litany of eyewitnesses who saw, heard and felt explosions gives more credence to controlled demoltions, and less credence to anything else.

8. Same as (1).

Nonsense. Gravity operates vertically. It is absurd for you to suggest that the horizontal ejection of heavy steel beams for hundreds of feet supports a gravity driven explanation. Clearly this is more supportive of controlled demolition.

9. Same as (5).

Nonsense. You are suggesting that the near free-fall collapse times are supportive of catasrophic failure and NOT demolition. Come on. We observe dozens of demoltions on video. They occur at near free-fall times, for well-understood reasons. You cannot cite a single example of a catastrphic failure behaving like that, and there is ample reason to believe that it is physically impossible.

10. Same as (5).

Controlled demoltions require skill. You claim this supports catastrophic failure? Huh??

11. Based on flawed assumption.

The B&Z paper requires column temperatures to go up to 800 degrees C. There is no evidence to support fire temperatures that hot, much less column temperatures that hot. Where is the flawed assumption?

12. Objection to NIST procedure, unrelated to actual tower collapse.

NIST commissioned actual fire tests, which showed that the floors would not fail. They didn't like that, so they supposedly made a computer model, tweaked the inputs until they got a failure, then refuse to release any of this to the public. Jones' point is well taken. NIST is far from convincing.

13. Same as (12).

Repeatability is the essence of the scientific method. Releasing the visualizations of the computer model is standard. The idea is that someone else can employ your methods, and come to the same result. NIST has refused to do this, therefore going against the scienfic method, therefore Jones' point is well taken.

I would also point out that the paper makes the claim The structural damage from the planes and the explosive ignition of jet fuel in themselves were not enough to bring down the towers.... -- this is made as a statement of faith, without evidence, so the objectivity of the whole paper comes into question. Peter Grey 20:20, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

No, Peter, this is a statement made on observation, not faith. We observe that the towers stand motionless for 56 and 102 minutes after the crashes.

TruthSeeker1234 07:44, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

All these conspiracy nuts are just too much. i am a civil engineer with 30 years of experience, ranging from shopping centers to a major downtown commercial complex with 7 hirise towers. Fires can easily cause a high rise building to collapse. They are more fragile than you would like to believe. The types of collapses that occured on sept 11 have occurred many times before, for example, in Mexico city.

I wish we could make indestructable towers. If our clients had an unlimited budget, we could. But they don't. I could easily bring any steel framed structure down with gasoline and a match. You just have to know where to light the fire. The fact that on 911 fire accidentally found the right places is not surprising to me. I'm surprised the buildings stood as long as they did. Jet fuel burns so hot it is almost like a nuclear reaction.

This debate is over. The government panels have studied this to death. There is NO evidence of controlled demolition. None. You idiot moron conspiracy quacks have no business attempting to edit an article on a technical subject. Move out of the way, and let experts do it, like me.

24.106.90.250 12:03, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Damage total

I notice the damage total is not mentioned on the article. I've read a few sources that said it was in the $20 billion range. Provided someone finds an exact, official link, I think something like that would be an important little fact for the article. Hurricanehink (talk) 19:15, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Al-qaeda comment removed

An anonymous IP added "It is important to note that the US government has supported, trained, and sold arms to al-Qaeda in the past. In fact, the US put al-Qaeda into power." As that would be a horribly a very strong and dangerous comment to make without prior discussion, especially amid controversy, I removed it back the version of the article prior. Kevin_b_er 05:11, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Something along those lines could go in, as long as there was a good source for it. But it wouldn't, even if we had an affadavit from the government that said so. SkeenaR 06:49, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Title is incorrectly punctuated

The title should read "September 11, 2001, attacks." The year is parenthetical. It should be set off by two commas, not just one.

66.146.211.71 06:58, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

Actually, the whole date September 11, 2001 is an integral part of the name. Peter Grey 17:34, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

Day of the Week, etc.

I propose the following addendum: "The attacks were carried out on a Tuesday--a weekday. As such, most schools and workplaces allowed students and workers to witness the television coverage throughout the day." Also mention something about many students wishing to make telephone calls to relatives, and schools allowing this. 18.243.6.65 07:04, 11 June 2006 (UTC)Ninjagecko (high school student during the attacks)

Fatalities section

I do not understand why the following two sentences begin the fatality section: "One fatality was US-Israeli multi-millionaire Daniel Lewin, an influential figure in the development of the internet and a former member of an elite Israeli anti-terrorist unit. Also aboard Flight 11 the captain, John Ogonowski, is said to have been killed by terrorists before the impact."

It seems to me that the section should immediately emphasize the number of deaths. Pointing out a wealthy individual and how one particular victim was killed seems to undermine that goal; furthermore, it most likely will leave out other influential people. The safe thing could be to emphasize the number of fatalities and their location at the time of their death. Placing two people at the beginning of the section seems to lessen that emphasis. Smackme 20:31, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

Responsibility section Declaration of War citation

His declaration of a holy war against the United States,[citation needed]

cite Osama bin Laden, “Declaration of War” issued 23AUG1996 [[19]]

There is a secondary source on PBS.org in the talk page of the wikisource page. 70.134.88.250 05:46, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

Can we please add something along the lines of: "Despite the US government citing that Bin Laden was responsible for the attacks, the FBI have stated that there is no hard evidence connecting him to the attacks. The official FBI 'most wanted' site does not state that Usama Bin Laden is wanted in connection with the 9/11 attacks."

This is very important I think.

Missiles attached to the hijacked planes

Close examination of the videos (I saw it at 1 frame per second) shows quite clearly that a missile was launched from the second plane and suggests that one was launched from the first, both a split second before the actual crash. This was probably to ensure destruction. Slowing down of other footage shows an extra piece of equipment underneath US Flight 175 shortly before impact into the South Tower. This means that somehow, the terrorists had planned in advance and attached these missiles to the airplanes without detection by authorities. It is also possible that they were allowed to, but all we know for certain is that a flash occured between Flight 11 and the North Tower before it crashed and a missile was launched in a similar flash (from a pod attached to the underside of US Flight 175) into the South Tower a split second before the 2nd crash.

Boeing, the manufacturer, when questioned about the extra part on Flight 175, totally refused questions of it, simply saying that the nation's security was at stake.

This can be proven by slowing certain cameras' views of the 2nd crash down enough, and close examination of the 1st crash.

This is very relevant information, and unquestionable fact, so why not add it somewhere in the article?

205.188.116.73 22:19, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

I don't think I've ever heard the missile theory combined with the hijacking theory. Walk through this with me. Teams of terrorists smuggle missiles into an airport, which they then somehow attach to the bottoms of several jets, which nobody -- other flight crews, people loading baggage into the planes, people looking out the windows of the airport -- nobody notices. They also get into the planes themselves and run controls for the missiles into the cockpits so they will be able to fire them at their targets, though instead of simply hijacking the planes right there, they all leave the runway, reenter the airport, and hijack these planes from the inside. They then fly the planes to their targets where they fire missiles at them, and, to be really thorough, they crash into their targets as well.

I think you're gonna have trouble with WP:CITE on this one. Just my hunch. JDoorjam Talk 22:27, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Time to Get On With Life

I am a civil engineer with decades of experience designing structures, including skyscrapers. I am sick and tired of [editors] on this page pushing conspiracy theories with no basis in reality. I will comment only on the WTC collapses, as I am an expert. Listen up.

1. Fires absolutely can cause a steel framed skyscraper to collapse. I have seen it with my own eyes. It has happened many times before. We could build them stronger, but they would be more expensive, and less spacious.

2. A collapse such as the 2 that occured on 9/11 can indeed produce molten steel. What happens when you bend a piece of wire? It gets hot. Multiply that by about 500,000 and you can understand that the tremendous mass above the failure point will have more than enough energy to melt steel. I'm surprised there wasn't more molten steel at ground zero.

3. Much has been said about the concrete turning into powder. For god's sake, this lightweight concrete we use is powder and glue, that's it. Drop a chunk of this stuff 10 feet and it will turn to powder, just like that. The concrete in the twin towers fell an average of over 500 hundred feet before it hit the ground. What do you expect would happen?

And so on.

In case any of you [editors] didn't notice, FEMA studied the collapses. That should have been enough, but just to [completely convince everyone], we went and had NIST study it some more. NIST has stated that there is NO EVIDENCE of a controlled demolition. Why would they say such a thing if it wasn't true? This is a democracy, not some third world [country]. Frankly, these fine men and women have much more important things to do than respond to nonsense. Our country is in grave danger until we stamp out terrorism world-wide. We should not spend any more time and resources studying the collapses.

If any of you have specific questions about structure, I am more than happy to answer. I am on board now, please leave the technical aspects of 9/11 related articles to those of us who are qualified to edit them.

[Warmest regards,]

EngineerEd 00:47, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

This seemed to have a few issues with WP:CIVIL and WP:NPA but I thought the points were probably valid, so I trimmed the flamebait. Here's the original posting. Is Wikipedia censored for minors? No, but in this case I'll censor it to keep people from behaving like children. JDoorjam Talk 00:55, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Is it OK if I add a mention in the article about how common it is for steel framed structures to collapse from fire? For some reason I can't edit the article. Is this because I'm new? I'd like to edit the collapse article too, but that seems blocked also. Maybe it's just my browser.

EngineerEd 01:26, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Due to vandalism, some articles are locked to prevent anonymous or new users from editing. It's not just you. It usually takes a few days before you're allowed. Perhaps if you state your submission here, we can add it. --Golbez 01:32, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

For starters, this passage:

There has been much speculation on the "performance" of the Twin Towers after the impacts, and the reasons for the collapse are under active debate by structural engineers, architects, and the relevant U.S. government agencies.

Should be changed to something like this:

The cause of the Twin Towers collapses is a well understood, common phenomenon. It is called "global progressive collapse", which has, unfortunately, been observed many times before. The studies by FEMA and NIST have confirmed this, and "debate" continues only amongst non-professionals.

74.128.44.60 04:55, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Please provide a citation or two to support the statement that, "Global Progressive collapse has been observed many times before" Specific examples of steel structures collapsing due to fire "many times before" would be extremely valuable. Thanks

70.25.48.58 18:09, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

There is no need to belabour the point. All that is required is a simple statement of the legitimate studies and their conclusions, and the absence of evidence of a deliberate demolition. Peter Grey 01:25, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

That would be acceptable. To be fair and NPOV however, the Steven Jones article should also be given a mention. Whether or not you believe the assertions, the paper IS notable and has been widely circulated by the conspiracy theorist community.

70.25.48.58 02:24, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Steven Jones the not-structural-engineer from Brigham Young? I don't see why either he or his paper is relevant to a statement about experts in the field of structural engineering. "Some non-engineers like Steven Jones, however..." isn't NPOV or balance, it's just silly. JDoorjam Talk 02:32, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Yes, exactly, Steven Jones's paper has yet to be published by a reliable third party...and only appears in conspiracy theory websites.--MONGO 02:59, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Let's stop going in circles

Steven Jones' paper is notable as a pop culture phenomenon, and can be mentioned on the appropriate article. The demolition conjecture essentially comes down to an Internet hoax in bad taste. NPOV does not mean putting reality and fantasy on an equal footing. I would like to throw out the following challenge to the believers in demolition: All the alleged "evidence" is something like 'Such-and-such observation looks like a controlled demolition'. Find us one valid example of form 'Such-and-such observation looks like a controlled demolition, and it does not look like a catastrophic structural failure'. Peter Grey 04:52, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Better yet, don't. Respectfully, Peter (and from your comment I'm pretty confident you'll agree with me anyway), we're onto something here and I don't want to lose it into the 9/11 conspiracy theories vortex. Can we get some sources on global progressive collapse? This sounds like a concept that, with proper sourcing, could really have legs in this article and make it an extremely valuable public source of technical information about the tower collapses. If that's a valid and relevant technical concept, by all means let's source and appropriate it into this work. JDoorjam Talk 05:48, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

I agree, 'Global Progressive Collapse' does sound like an impressive engineering term. I would welcome the inclusion of a well cited explanation of what it means as well as its implications. Specifically, I would be curious to learn how 'Global Progressive Collapse' explains how buildings can collapse at near free-fall velocities, in accordance with Newtonian Gravity. Steven Jones is an expert in the field of physics, and his paper specifically addresses this question. His research is well sourced with clear citations and has received wide scrutiny by the both sides of the 9/11 debate. To exclude it here, would be tantamount to censorship - it has clearly been a heated source of discussion, and is notable for that fact alone. I am looking forward to improving this section. Can anyone provide some background sources on 'Global Progressive Collapse?'

70.25.48.58 12:17, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Steven Jones's paper has NOT been peer reviewed, NOT been published by a reliable third party source and is NOT scientific...if you really want to learn something, read this: [20]--MONGO 12:23, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

None of this discussion belongs on this page. None of this suggested text belongs in this entry. As Mongo has aptly pointed out: "Steven Jones's paper has yet to be published by a reliable third party," and all of this speculation is little more than gossip, rumor-mongering, and marginal speculation. Please take this to the 9/11 conspiracy theories page. --Cberlet 12:59, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Jones' paper is not research. The paper has received scrutiny, yes, and it has failed to meet the standards for engineering analysis. (By the way, since Jones is not a structural engineer, neither are his peers.) As for how buildings can collapse at near free-fall velocities, it's a simple calculation of impact loading. If a bettr calculation finds a different velocity, that would be a legitimate criticism - an appeal to intuition is not. Peter Grey 14:12, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Also, see User talk:Huysman/911 conspiracism where I demonstrate fatal flaws in various 9/11 conspiracy theories. -- Huysman^{talk| contribs}File:Poisoned Icon.jpg 18:18, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

The best source for information on progressive collapse relevant to this article is the NIST report. All you need is in there.

Steven Jones is a theoretical physicist. I think he is an excellent source for the latest musings about alternate dimensions, or time travel. As for the real world, you need to talk to an engineer. Engineers are about making things work in the real world. I have read the Jones paper, and it is just a bunch of nonsense. As I have stated before, there is nothing unusual about pools of molten metal at a disaster site.

We had a tower collapse in Houston Texas in 1992. This was the Fuji tower, 56 stories, which was about 90% complete, when a crane operator (who was on drugs) began operation before his platform was secure, the crane fell over, and triggered a total progressive collapse. I personally saw a pool of molten metal at the site when I came with the insurance investigator.

The collapses of the twin towers did not look like a controlled demolition, if you know what you are looking for. For one thing, the towers EX-ploded, whereas a controlled demolition is an IM-plosion.

EngineerEd 19:57, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Could you supply a reference or at least a date for the collapse of the Fuji Tower (are you sure that was the right name?) in Houston Texas? I can't find any information on that. Toiyabe 22:56, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

I don't know if there is anything on the web about it, but look, I was there. The point is that progressive collapse happens. I wish it didn't, but it does. There was another one in Mexico City that was caused by a fire. True, this fire burned for about 8 hours, and was a different type of design than the twin towers. This building was desinged by the Mexicans and was essentially held up by a series of intersecting arches, getting smaller and smaller as it went up. It was called the Arcos Rincon, very beautiful and innovative. Completely collapsed on one side, and turned to dust.

The point is, this is an encyclopedia, not a tabloid. There are plenty of places for people to speculate about conspiracy theories. It is time to stop disgracing the honor of the people who were murdered on 911. Allowing the conspiracy nuts to have any say in this article is a disgrace, a shame. There ought to be something that the honest editors can do about it.

Can't these conspiracy theorists be stopped, or blocked, or shut down? What's more important, letting "everyone" edit these 911 aritlces, or getting it right? I think that getting the facts straight is more important.

24.106.90.250 07:03, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

There's no way to stop, block or shut people out, provided they follow the rules. The only thing I know of that works is to stay calm and provide well sourced information. That information doesn't need to be online - if you gave me a reasonable date range for the "Fuji Tower" or "Arcos Rincon" collapses, I could look through the trade rags and journals for information to add to the article.

Hyperbole doesn't help either, in my humble opinion - it just gives your opponents something extraneous to grab onto and discredit without discrediting the core idea.

Finally, I'm assuming that you are User:EngineerEd, and forgot to log in. If you check the "remember me" box when you log in, you won't need to remember to do that each time. Toiyabe 15:12, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Ed, you've got lots of allies here in the war against "made up things" and unsubstantiated conspiracy cruft. Let us know what you want, and we will support your edits. Cheers. Morton Devonshire^Yo

Ed made up the stuff about the Fuji Tower and Arcos Rincon. There are no historical examples of "global progressive collapse", or molten metal from a building collapse. EngineerEd is a fake. I'll stake my reputation on it. Ed, I challenge you to provide any substantiation for anything you have said.

I think it is interesting how Morton and Toiyabe are so eager to be "allies" with an obvious fake. TruthSeeker1234 03:45, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

The burden of proof is on the conspiracy theory supporters to show evidence of an alternative. (Note that feelings, intuition and opinions of amateurs are not evidence.) Peter Grey 04:11, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

Molten metal pouring out of the South Tower just moments before collapse is evidence Peter. So is the complete pulverization of the towers to dust. Even Credible source governor George Pataki mentioned the dust covering lower Manhattan from "river to river". A litany of eyewitnesses who saw, heard and felt explosions, that's evidence too. So are the squibs. And the photgraphed flashes. And the collapse times. And the mushroom clouds. And the horizontal ejection of steel pieces for hundreds of feet. That's evidence, not feelings, intuition or opinion, Peter. TruthSeeker1234 06:33, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

I think the fact that engineers named Ed suddenly appear and create mythical buildings that collapse in a globally progressive sort of way while magically melting metal in defiance of the known laws of physics & chemistry - all in order to discredit the idea that 3 buildings collapsed in a manner that suspiciously resembled a controlled demolition - speaks volumes about the lengths some editors are willing to go to shut down opposing viewpoints. Is this really what Wikipedia is supposed to be about? {User formerly known as 70.25.48.58) Digiterata 05:12, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

No, Wikipedia is about supporting article entries with verifiable information from reliable sources. Something which you and the other conspiracy theorists cannot do. Morton Devonshire^Yo

The official story is a conspiracy theory, one with very little in the way of facts to support it. How and why do 19 Arabs board 4 planes without tickets, for example?

"Engineer Ed" has offered nothing in the way of documentation. He's a fake, I promise. I find nothing at all about either "Fuji Tower" or "Arcos Rincon". It's BS. Ed, you on tonight? Come on. In the meantime, there are reliable mainstream sources (NY Times, FEMA) that have reported molten metal and partially evaportated metal, and very high temperatures achieved. This is interesting stuff, and ought to go in some article somewhere.

Have you heard the latest? Steven Jones has analyzed some samples of WTC slag, it's iron with high concentrations of sulfer, such as what would be produced from thermate. This is consistent with the FEMA metalurgical study which showed the "swiss cheese" appearance of the metal, the "rapid oxidation" and the sulfer content.

Meanwhile the NY Times author Glanz has changed the title of his infamous article from

ENGINEERS ARE BAFFLED OVER THE COLLAPSE OF 7 WTC

"STEEL MEMBERS HAVE BEEN PARTLY EVAPORATED"

to

Engineers Have a Culprit in the Strange Collapse of 7 World Trade Center: Diesel Fuel TruthSeeker1234 06:18, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

How do you explain the millions of independent journalists who have investigated this story, and who corroborate through their reporting the common account? Morton Devonshire^Yo