Talk:Aramaic

Amaraic

I can speak amaraic 2604:25C0:E06:6601:652C:CD8D:4293:A240 (talk) 11:40, 3 October 2023 (UTC)

Does anybody know how to write those letters in classical Syriac and old Aramaic.

I really want to type the language out but don't know where to get the necessary keyboards. 92.40.214.171 (talk) 07:19, 4 October 2023 (UTC)

Title: Aramaic - Aramaic language

I think this page should be renamed back to Aramaic language. Aramaic is one language with different dialected and variants. 62.225.227.235 (talk) 16:20, 8 December 2023 (UTC)

Nothing implies that Aramaic is not one language, even if this very question is debated. Aramaic is in good company of other languages not needing the natural disambguator "language": "Latin is a ... language", "Mandarin Chinese is a ... language", "Arabic is a ... language", "Sanskrit is a ... language", "Urdu is a ... language" etc. –Austronesier (talk) 21:02, 8 December 2023 (UTC)

Shmayo deletes sourced information

@Shmayo

May I ask why you delete sourced information after the edits of IP: 5.147.130.106?

Why did you delete the Aramean name from the following part of the article?

Aramaic served as a language of public life and administration of ancient kingdoms and empires, and also as a language of divine worship and religious study. Several modern varieties, the Neo-Aramaic languages, are still spoken by the Assyrians, Arameans (Syriacs) of the Qalamoun mountains, Mandeans and Mizrahi Jews 217.213.72.23 (talk) 12:03, 25 December 2023 (UTC)

@Shmayo Could you please give an explanation? 188.148.249.218 (talk) 13:40, 31 December 2023 (UTC)

188.148.249.218, the term "Aramean" is used to describe a historical people group. If we want to talk about present-day speakers, it would be clearer to call them "Syriacs". Remsense留 14:54, 31 December 2023 (UTC)

The sources (that were not readded in the IP reverts) were mostly not WP:RS nor cited correctly (nor were they English, thus translated by anon user). What is referred to with Neo-Aramaic speakers in Qalamoun Mountains are the speakers of Western Neo-Aramaic (where the same anon user added the same thing). I don't think it's necessary/right to label the inhabitants of these tree villages as Arameans nor Syriacs. The ones that are not Muslims are not even Syriac Christians. Reverting. Shmayo (talk) 19:23, 1 January 2024 (UTC)

Why wouldn’t it be allowed by you? In Western Neo-Aramaic (in their own language) they identify both as Syriacs or Arameans (Sūray). In Arabic they also identify either as Arameans or Syriacs (Siryaniye). The Syriac Christians are for sure Arameans/Syriacs as the sources confirmed. 2003:DF:FF1A:F2C7:5CEB:31D8:CD9A:1094 (talk) 23:40, 10 January 2024 (UTC)

Please answer 2003:DF:FF1A:F22F:195F:CE3E:3243:975E (talk) 00:25, 20 January 2024 (UTC)

I do not understand the question, what do you mean with allowed by you? On sources, see my post above. Shmayo (talk) 07:19, 25 January 2024 (UTC)

The people of Maaloula, Jubb’adin and Bakha self-identify as Syriacs/Arameans (Sūray). Süray means Syriac(s). In their native western Neo-Aramaic language they cal their mother tongue ‘Suryon’. This word translated into English is Syriac too (as mentioned on the Western Neo-Aramaic page)

I will add ‘Arameans’ as speakers to the page and source it. Sounds strange that Arameans aren’t mentioned on the page as speakers. 62.225.233.45 (talk) 11:14, 27 January 2024 (UTC)

Maaloula and Jubb'adin are listed. The rest is your own conclusions and translations. Shmayo (talk) 08:14, 30 January 2024 (UTC)

Not true. I will source it. Here: Anas Abou-Ismail. 1. Western Neo-Aramaic. Cambridge Scholars Publishing. p. 2. ISBN 9781527550469. Jubaadinis are very proud of their language and their Aramean identity and they have no trouble at all balancing their religious and ethnic identities. 2. Anas Abou-Ismail. The Semitic Heritage of Northwest Syria. Cambridge Scholars Publishing. ISBN 9781527517578. Arameans fled Maaloula, the influence of Christian liturgy on the Maaloula dialect will likely increase. 3. Rahim Arnold. "About us". friendsofmaaloula. Hilfe für das Aramäerdorf Maaloula e. V. Retrieved 16 January 2024. It is our heartfelt wish to contribute to the livelihood of the Aramaeans of Maaloula as long as they still live as refugees in Damascus. 2003:DF:FF4C:43C6:53D:D1B1:E000:ADCE (talk) 10:56, 30 January 2024 (UTC)

It is sourced now. Please don't delete. 62.225.233.45 (talk) 12:08, 30 January 2024 (UTC)

How is nephrologist Anas Abou-Ismail's book a good source on this? The article you keep adding is, just as Remsense pointed out above, is about the ancient group of tribes referred to as Arameans, are you aware of this? While the other one being added is on modern Aramean identity of some Syriac Christians, which people referred to here are not. Shmayo (talk) 12:56, 30 January 2024 (UTC)

The first two sources were published in English by Cambridge Scholars Publishing. The author is Anas Abou-Ismail with parts of his family born and raised in Jubbadin. The web link is also reliable, with one of its chairmans being the well-known Prof. Dr. Werner Arnold specialized in Western Neo-Aramaic as shown on the website. Wikipedia does not prohibit quoting from foreign languages. Since this is an absolute niche topic, it's difficult to find sources in English and one is more likely to find them in Arabic. Here is an Arabic interview with residents of Jubbadin, which corroborates the Arabic sources: https://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=shared&v=zo9J-PmeqIM

From 18:50min, she says "Ana Suryaniti“ (I am Syriac)

From 19:10min, this woman explains that when she says she is Syriac (Suryani), the first question people ask is if she is Chaldean. When she replies that she is not, but Syriac, they then assume she must be connected to Christianity. She clarifies that she has nothing to do with Christianity; she is Muslim, but Syriac.

In the interview, both Aramaic and Syriac terms are used interchangeably. Of course, this doesn't fit into the ideological worldview of some users. User Shmayo has been patrolling all Wikipedia articles related to Arameans, Aramaic, Syriac, Assyrians, etc. for more than 10 years, aggressively shaping the content according to his own ideological perspective by cherry-picking sources that match his worldview and removing even flawless sources that meet Wikipedia's guidelines. He was involved in countless edit-warrings.

"But "Aramean" was never a self-designation." This misquoted and misleading sentence was added by Shmayo in the "Arameans" article to demonstrate his/her biased editing. However, if you delve deeper into the so-called sources, they actually refer to the pre-Christian period during the rule of the Assyrians when the Arameans were organized in tribal groups and tribal names were used instead. Shmayo didn’t even pay attention to what Helene Sader wrote on page 15:"It is interesting to note in this context that later Aramaean dynasts never refer to themselves as Aramaeans or to their country as Aram, WITH THE EXCEPTION OF THE KING OF ARAM-DAMASCUS SINCE HIS KINGDOM WAS ALSO CALLED ARAM.". Aren’t Western Neo-Aramaic speakers located near Damascus? The term "Aramean" was indeed a self-designation, even if only for Aram or Aram-Damascus at the time. The claim that it was never used, as he/she asserts, is therefore false. This sentence was completely taken out of context. And what about the time afterward? Ethnogenesis? It's curious why user Shmayo left this out. One of his/her sources was written by Herbert Niehr, a Roman Catholic theologian, if he/she starts discrediting authors based on their profession. How is that a good source then?2A02:3038:20A:D403:5DB5:B4B0:BB68:AA2B (talk) 14:56, 30 January 2024 (UTC)

Thank you for adding the videos, I will watch them. Please stay at the subject. I agree, seems like he is deleting constantly (sourced) information about anything related to Arameans. 62.225.233.45 (talk) 15:22, 30 January 2024 (UTC)

I have watched the videos. In the interview they indeed explain that they are Muslim Syriacs (Arameans). Thank you! 62.225.233.45 (talk) 15:27, 30 January 2024 (UTC)

@shmayo Who is Remsense? Anas Abou-Ismail is a reliable source with a book in English. He wrote a dictionary about the Western Neo-Aramaic of Jubaadin. Not all Arameans follow Syriac Christianity. Many Arameans in western Syria are Melkites who belong to the Rum Orthodox church (Greek Orthodox Patriarchate of Antioch) or Melkite Catholic Church. Maaloula is an example of Arameans who follow the Rum Orthodox or Catholic church. 2003:DF:FF4C:43C6:B5AD:31BA:F17A:4D18 (talk) 15:12, 30 January 2024 (UTC)

I missed one point. I didn’t link it to the Arameans page but to the page ’Terms for Syriac Christians’, where there is a section about the Aramean identity. 62.225.233.45 (talk) 16:10, 30 January 2024 (UTC)

Also @Shmayo Melkites (Rum) (Greek Orthodox and Catholic Christians) are described in the page ‘terms for Syriac Christians’. They are even called Syriac Melkites in the page! 62.225.233.45 (talk) 18:36, 30 January 2024 (UTC)

First, please leave such accusation out, it will not benefit you in any way. It sure is a narrow topic, but that does not justify anecdotal information to be used as a source here, nor any equal to self-published ones. I do think it is wrong to link to "Arameans" or "Terms for Syriac Christians" in this Wikipedia article when referring to these approx. 5000 (?) speakers of Western Neo-Aramaic. Further, I do think that the article "Maaloula" does a good job in explaining that they have been withstanding Arabization. As for Greek Orthodox Church of Antioch and the Melkite Greek Catholic Church, which the Christian part belong to here, these churches follow the Byzantine Rite, not the Syriac rite, whether they are listed there in a Wikipedia article or not. A point for improvement. Also, since I assume you are new here, I suggest starting here. Shmayo (talk) 09:28, 31 January 2024 (UTC)

Strange answer. As I explained above here that there are (many) Arameans who follow the Byzantine rite. As the women in the videos explain and the sources confirmed, there are also Aramean muslims. Several sources range and estimate 15.000 or 20.000 Western Neo-Aramaic speakers. Mandeans are also mentioned in this article while Neo-Mandaic has according the Neo-Mandaic article 100-200 (?) speakers. May I ask why you show resistance when it comes to adding the Aramean name (?) 2003:DF:FF4C:43E9:240C:5DE1:569B:D05F (talk) 11:29, 31 January 2024 (UTC)

The comparison with Mandeans is irrelevant, which of these results do not refer to the same Mandean group? Whether you and me think that "Arameans" is a good label for the WNA speakers (5000 or 50.000), it really does not matter. There is barely any mention of it, especially not in any reliable sources. Shmayo (talk) 12:58, 31 January 2024 (UTC)

You mentioned an amount of 5000 (?) speakers of Western Neo-Aramaic as an argument to not add 'Arameans' to speakers of Aramaic. From this reason I made the comparison with Neo-Mandaic. Mandeans are mentioned as speakers on this page. Neo-Mandaic has according the wikipedia page only 100-200 speakers. Sources estimate between 10.000 and 22.000 Western Neo-Aramaic speakers. I don't get what you mean. It is sourced. The other IP even added interviews of persons who identify as Islamic/Muslim Arameans (or Syriacs). There are actually plenty of sources that confirm that Western Neo-Aramaic speakers are Arameans/Syriacs. The WNA speakers identify in both Aramaic and Arabic interchangeably as Arameans and/or Syriacs. 93.238.93.119 (talk) 16:58, 31 January 2024 (UTC)

The Western Neo-Aramaic speaking Arameans were linked to Arameans (Syriacs). The subcategory is labeled "Aramean identity" under Terms for Syriac Christians, because a modern page does not exist. This absence is due to disputes among Christian Eastern Aramaic-speaking groups regarding their ethnic origins, disputes that do not affect speakers of Western Neo-Aramaic. Additionally, Jubbadin and Bakah were Christian villages more than 250 years ago. User Shmayo is solely focused on suppressing and manipulating any Information; he/she is even an "Assyrian Wikipedian" as mentioned on his/her profile. If you follow his/her latest contributions, this becomes evident:

Source: A Political History of the Arameans, p. 96 "...Mesopotamia, specifically the great bend of the Euphrates River "

Before: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Aram-Naharaim&oldid=1100567317

"for the ancient land of the Arameans referring to the region of Mesopotamia."

After Shmayo's editing: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Aram-Naharaim&oldid=1119275367

"for the ancient land of the Arameans referring to the region along the great bend of the Euphrates river."

Anything that could relate Arameans with Mesopotamia was removed from the article or manipulated. Shmayo is following an ideological narrative.

https://assyrians.n.nu/

Quote from an Assyrian nationalist website:"Assyrians live in Upper Mesopotamia (Beth Nahrain) East of the Euphrates River, while Arameans live in the Levant West of the Euphrates River."

Hence why Shmayo wrote "along" the rivers. Paddan-Aram and Aram-Nahraim covered Mesopotamia in general, specifically the bent of the Euphrates river as mentioned, which would also cover southeastern Anatolia, thus it would contradict the ideological narrative that Arameans were only present in the "West of the Euphrates River" made by modern Assyrians.

ARCHAEOLOGY & THE OLD TESTAMENT, p.16 "The Greek term "Mesopotamia" refers to the stretch of land located between the Tigris and Euphrates rivers. This term is equivalent to the Hebrew designation "Aram-naharaim," as evidenced by the fact that the translators of the Greek Septuagi typically translated "Aram-naharaim" as "Mesopotamia.""

This user is by no mean neutral or acts in the interest of Wikipedia as an encyclopedia. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:3038:201:74CC:D599:ACE5:BE37:C787 (talk) 13:39, 31 January 2024 (UTC)

Do you have any sources confirming that Jubb'adin and Bakhah were Christian 250 years ago? 93.238.93.119 (talk) 17:10, 31 January 2024 (UTC)

Studies in Neo-Aramaic, p.11 Roman Xi:

"The inhabitants of Bakh'a and Jubb'Adin are Muslims (since the eighteenth century), as is a large portion of the people of Ma'lula, while the rest have remained Christian, mostly of Melkite (Greek Catholic) persuasion. The retention of the "Christian" language after conversion to Islam is noteworthy.“

Historical Linguistics 2005, p. 247

"…Western Neo-Aramaic (Spitaler 1938; Arnold 1990), which is attested in three villages whose speakers just a few generations ago were still entirely Christian." 2A02:3038:201:74CC:D599:ACE5:BE37:C787 (talk) 17:49, 31 January 2024 (UTC)

Thank you! @Shmayo used that as an (?) argument to not add 'Arameans' to speakers of Aramaic on this page. He mentioned that the speakers of WNA (Arameans) from Bakh'a and Jubb'adin are not 'even' Christians. Not that it matters because the sources and interviews already confirmed that there are Islamic Arameans as well but it is always good to add extra sources. It is also confirmed now that the inhabitants of Bakh'a and Jubb'adin were Christians. 93.238.93.119 (talk) 18:13, 31 January 2024 (UTC)

• Just here as I saw Cambridge Scholars Publishing mentioned, works published by them should be considered to be self-published (see this discussion at RSN Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard/Archive 381#Cambridge Scholars Publishing). As Anas Abou-Ismail is a renal specialist these works wouldn't meet the requirements setout in WP:SPS, and so wouldn't generally be considered reliable. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 23:08, 1 February 2024 (UTC)

  "Lehrbuch des Neuwestaramäischen" by Prof. Dr. Werner Arnold, p. 15 (https://www.uni-heidelberg.de/fakultaeten/philosophie/ori/semitistik/arnold_en.html).

  Quote:"Viele Aramäer arbeiten heute in Damaskus, Beirut oder in den Golfstaaten und verbringen nur die Sommermonate im Dorf." (In English:"Many Arameans work today in Damascus, Beirut or in the Gulf states, spending only the summer months in the village.“)

  p. 133 (…Aramäern in Ma'lūla) (In English:…Arameans in Maaloula)

  Prof. Dr. Werner Arnold uses the term Aramean in his works when describing the speakers of Western Neo-Aramaic (See some quotes from his works). He is an expert in Western Neo-Aramaic and lived in Maaloula for a while to study the language. His scholarly works are often used as a reference in English-language books about Aramaic.

  "Arabisch-aramäische Sprachbeziehungen im Qalamūn (Syrien)" by Prof. Dr. Werner Arnold, p. 5

  Quote:"Die Kontakte zwischen den drei Aramäer-dörfern sind nicht besonders stark."(In English:“The contacts between the three Aramean villages are not particularly strong.“)

  p. 42 "Die arabischen Dialekte der Aramäer“ (In English:The Arabic dialects of the Arameans)

  Untersuchungen zum Spracherwerb zweisprachiger Kinder im Aramäerdorf Dschubbadin (Syrien) by Dr. Emna Labidi

  p.133 (…Aramäer von Ǧubbˁadīn…) (In English:…Arameans of Jubb'adin…) 2A02:3038:202:F340:E0AD:FC13:F6:DFEE (talk) 04:30, 2 February 2024 (UTC)

  Grammatical Borrowing in Cross-Linguistic Perspective, p. 185

  "The fact that nearly all Arabic loans in Ma'lula originate from the period before the change from the rural dialect to the city dialect of Damascus shows that the contact between the Aramaeans and the Arabs was intimate…“ 2A02:3038:202:F340:E0AD:FC13:F6:DFEE (talk) 04:44, 2 February 2024 (UTC)

  I have another source: Christina Michelle Weaver* and George A. Kiraz. Page 2:

  Originally spoken in southeastern Turkey, Turoyo constitutes Central Neo-Aramaic, one of three geographical distributions of Neo-Aramaic, the other two being Western Neo-Aramaic (the language spoken in the three Syriac villages of Maʿlulah, Jubbʿadin, and Bakhʿa) and Eastern Neo-Aramaic, which is divided into the Christian and Jewish dialects of North Eastern Neo-Aramaic (Heinrichs 1990) as well as Neo-Mandaic (Häberl 2009). 93.238.93.119 (talk) 12:09, 2 February 2024 (UTC)

  Märchen aus Malula by Rafik Schami p. 151

  Quote:">Ich kenne das Dorf nicht, doch gehört habe ich davon. Was ist mit Malula?‹ fragte der festgehaltene Derwisch. >Dae latzte Dorf der Aramäer< lachte einer der…". (In English:">I don't know the village, but I've heard of it. What about Maaloula?< asked the captured Dervish. >Maaloula is the last village of the Aramaeans,< laughed one of them...) 2A02:3038:202:F340:E0AD:FC13:F6:DFEE (talk) 14:54, 2 February 2024 (UTC)

  Must be clear I guess. It is clear that Western Neo-Aramaic speakers are Arameans. They identify interchangeably as Arameans and Syriacs in their native Aramaic language and in Arabic. The documentaries, interviews and sources confirmed it as well. Is there anything else necessary or is it good like this? 93.238.93.119 (talk) 15:45, 2 February 2024 (UTC)

  93.238.93.119, 2A02:3038:202:F340:E0AD:FC13:F6:DFEE—are you the same person? It has been somewhat confusing trying to discern this. I hope it's understandable the timbre of the discussion changes whether I think I'm talking to one or three different people.
  Concerning the primary topic—I am officially out of my comfort zone, so I defer to other peoples' judgement of the sources. — Remsense诉 18:36, 2 February 2024 (UTC)

  2A02:3038:202:F340:E0AD:FC13:F6:DFEE was me. 93.238.93.119 is another participant.

  For the sake of this discussion, I created this account, but I agree it makes things easier to follow. PersonJanuary2024 (talk) 19:27, 2 February 2024 (UTC)

  No. I don't know who the other person is. He/she is someone else 93.238.93.119 (talk) 21:49, 2 February 2024 (UTC)

  I have contacted the administrators, but still haven’t received a response yet. PersonJanuary2024 (talk) 23:30, 3 February 2024 (UTC)

  So what now? 2003:DF:FF3D:D47A:5EB:B937:DE15:A6A4 (talk) 12:25, 21 February 2024 (UTC)

Romanisation? Dialect in examples?

I’m guessing the examples given use Romanization of Syriac, but it’s not very clear.

Despite the disclaimer at the beginning of the Phonology section (“it would not be feasible here to go into all these properties”), it seems like that is attempted, which makes the examples in the Grammar section hard to take in, since we don’t know what in the long and varied history of Aramaic we’re dealing with.

Are all the examples Biblical Aramaic? It would be a lot more straightforward if someone who knows the subject could add a statement saying what kind of Aramaic is being demonstrated. ⚜ Moilleadóir ✍ 06:27, 28 May 2025 (UTC)

I am not an expert, but based on what I have read, the Phonology section is likely based on Syriac, as that was the first Aramaic dialect to receive vocal marks (in the 8th century). From older dialects we are not sure how to pronounce it. The Grammar section uses "Square Script" (see Hebrew alphabet). That would be from a Jewish Aramaic dialect, but I don't know which one. But Biblical Aramaic would also be my guess.

It would have been better if these paragraphs had proper sources. --wimmel (talk) 22:55, 28 May 2025 (UTC)