Talk:Middle Way

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Note 13 (Bodhi, 2005, p. 315)

During fruitful on-going talk-page discussion with Mitsube, the idea of more extensively quoting from Bhikkhu Bodhi in order to better contextualize SN 12.15 has come up. To allow for this possibility, as well as to allow for others to assess the elision decisions I made when including Bodhi's text in an end note to this article, I'm including here the whole two paragraphs that Bodhi includes in his "In the Buddha's Words" (2005), Chapter IX, pp. 315-316, regarding SN 12.15 (a similar statement by Bodhi can be found in his translation of the "Samyutta Nikaya," 2000, pp. 521-522):

Several suttas hold up dependent origination as a 'teaching by the middle' (majjhena tathāgato dhammaṃ deseti). It is a 'teaching by the middle' because it transcends two extreme views that polarize philosophical reflection on the human condition. One extreme, the metaphysical thesis of eternalism (sassatavāda), asserts that the core of human identity is an indestructible and eternal self, whether individual or universal. It also asserts that the world is created and maintained by a permanent entity, a God or some other metaphysical entity. The other extreme, annihilationism (ucchedavāda), holds that at death the person is utterly annihilated. There is no spiritual dimension to human existence and thus no personal survival of any sort. For the Buddha, both extremes pose insuperable problems. Eternalism encourages an obstinate clinging to the five aggregates, which are really impermanent and devoid of a substantial self; annihilationism threatens to undermine ethics and to make suffering the product of chance.

Dependent origination offers a radically different perspective that transcends the two extremes. It shows that individual existence is constituted by a current of conditioned phenomena devoid of a metaphysical self yet continuing on from birth to birth as long as the causes that sustain it remain effective. Dependent origination thereby offers a cogent explanation of the problem of suffering that on the one hand avoids the philosophical dilemmas posed by the hypothesis of a permanent self, and on the other avoids the dangers of ethical anarchy to which annihilationism eventually leads. As long as ignorance and craving remain, the process of rebirth continues; kamma yields its pleasant and painful fruit, and the great mass of suffering accumulates. When ignorance and craving are destroyed, the inner mechanism of karmic causation is deactivated, and one reaches the end of suffering in saṃsāra. Perhaps the most elegant exposition of dependent origination as the 'middle teaching' is the famous Kaccānagotta Sutta, included here as Text IX,4(4)(d). [Boldface in original.]

If one is inclined to include more of this text in this article, it's fine with me, though I think the material not currently included goes beyond what is called for in this article. With metta, Larry Rosenfeld (talk) 02:22, 17 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you very much for this quote. Harvey says:

It can thus be said that, while an empirical self exists - or rather consists of a changing flow of mental and physical states which neither unchangingly exists nor does not exist - not metaphysical Self can be apprehended.

page 33 of The Selfless Mind. Then,

"It is a curious fact that the early Suttas see even Annihilationism, which the Buddha equated with denial of s/Self, as tied up with belief in a Self."

(page 39 of The Selfless Mind.) I think that that is a key idea and explains the Sabbasava Sutta's warning against thinking "I have no self." It explains why he did not flat-out say "there is no self" also, though he did say that self "cannot be apprehended" which has a different shade of meaning. Harvey seems to agree with TB to some extent:

One uses 'not-Self', then, as a reason to let go of things, not to 'prove' that there is no Self. There is no need to give some philosophical denial of 'Self'; the idea simply withers away, or evaporates in the light of knowledge, when it is seen that the concept does not apply to anything at all, or, as the Suttas put it, when it is seen that everything is 'empty' of Self. A philosophical denial is just a view, a theory, which may be agreed with or not. It does not get one to actually examine all the things that one really does identiy with, consciously or unconsciously, as Self or I.

I think that other people who thing that "atta" is in the Buddha's thought a philosophical "no-go" area have also missed the point. I will add this material in some form at some point. Mitsube (talk) 06:59, 17 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I'm supprised that little info about....

http://scholar.google.com/scholar?as_q=middle+way+Gautama&num=10&btnG=Search+Scholar&as_epq=&as_oq=&as_eq=&as_occt=title&as_sauthors=&as_publication=&as_ylo=&as_yhi=&as_allsubj=all&hl=en --58.38.43.67 (talk) 03:23, 19 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

but

plenty info about http://scholar.google.com/scholar?as_q=middle+way+Nagarjuna&num=10&btnG=Search+Scholar&as_epq=&as_oq=&as_eq=&as_occt=title&as_sauthors=&as_publication=&as_ylo=&as_yhi=&as_allsubj=all&hl=en

Why is that...???--58.38.43.67 (talk) 03:23, 19 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Issue With The Triangle Metaphor

The introduction used the following metaphor of a triangle to present the Middle Way.

The middle path does not mean a mid point in a straight line joining two extremes represented by points. The middle path represents a high middle point, like the apex of a triangle. Thus the high middle point is more value filled than a mere compromise.

That first sentence about not meaning a "mid point" is okay, but I disagree strongly with the characterization of a "high middle point" as a better term. This "high middle point" immage is just another version of the error of a "mid point." The characterization of the Middle Way as a triangular apex is really a "third way" image not a Middle Way image. The traditional image of the Middle Way is the lute string that won't produce a harmonious sound when it is tuned either too loose or too tight. In some stories hearing a lute player on a boat was the real life experience that opened up the meaning of the Middle Way to Buddha as he sat by the river. As the image of the tuned lute string indicates, the Middle Way is dynamic, not static as suggested by a "high middle point" image. Based on these concerns I've edited the above sentences to read:

The middle path does not mean a mid point in a straight line joining two extremes represented by points. The Middle Way is a dynamic teaching as shown by the traditional story that the Buddha realized the meaning of the Middle Way when he sat by a river and heard a lute player in a passing boat and understood that the lute string must be tuned neither too tight nor too loose to produce a harmonious sound.

(Gregory Wonderwheel (talk) 18:35, 17 September 2010 (UTC))[reply]

Page move

This phrase is capitalized as "Middle Way" almost universally, both here at Wikipedia and in other sources. I propose to move this page to Middle Way (over the redirect that exists there). I believe it was created with a lowercase 'w' by accident and this accident should be fixed. WikiDan61^ChatMe!_ReadMe!! 11:05, 9 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with you and came here for the same purpose. Jack1956 (talk) 15:43, 15 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Objections to assumptions made in this article

This article has been edited entirely on the assumption that the concept of the Middle Way must be described and verified in traditional Buddhist terms. However, the Middle Way is also a philosophical and practical idea that can be understood universally, in terms beyond the Buddhist tradition. It happens to have been articulated and promoted by the Buddhist tradition, but that doesn't mean that it should be understood solely in those terms. By way of comparison, the concept of love is central to Christian tradition, and this point would be noted in any article about Christian doctrine. However, if someone added a section that was not referred to Christian sources in an article on love, it would not be justifiable to delete it just on those grounds. I expect that if I were to add a section on the Middle Way beyond the Buddhist tradition to this article, which even defines the concept solely in terms of traditional Buddhism, it would be deleted by the other contributors. But the Middle Way is no more the monopolistic property of the Buddhist tradition than love is solely the property of Christianity.Evenbalance (talk) 15:13, 10 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Move to 'Middle Way'

As the editors above mention, the common name is capitalized 'Middle Way'. I tried to move it but there is already a redirect. If there is no objection can someone who knows how to work around the code for the redirect please move the page name? Thanks. Randy Kryn 12:12 1 November, 2014 (UTC)

Tony Hawk

I'm not a personal friend of Mr. Hawk, but I suspect that the assertion in the first sentence of the paragraph under "Noble Eightfold Path" is inaccurate. As of 1/14/2015 it reads:

"The term Middle Way was used in the Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta, the first teaching that Tony Hawk delivered after his awakening."

There is a citation to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samyutta_Nikaya, which doesn't mention Hawk.

I'm posting to request that someone with more knowledge or Wikipedia editing experience than myself rectify this humorous falsehood. If I were to edit it myself, I'd probably just replace Tony Hawk with "Jolly old Buddha" which is probably just as bad. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.160.151.53 (talk) 08:26, 14 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, I have removed it. JimRenge (talk) 08:39, 14 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Revert

This edit revrted my re-ordering of the info in this article. I see no rationale for having two sections on Mahayana, not for including a section called "Common Elements of Buddhism" which is about elements from the Theravada Pali canon and Theravada Buddhism. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 19:44, 12 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

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