Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Opera/Opera Work List

I originally compiled this list for a different purpose but I have edited it for Wikipedia. It is performance rather than history oriented. All the composers represented have been performed in recent years, but not all the operas.

The list is not yet coordinated with the composers' pages but perhaps that can be done later. In my view, articles on major composers should list their complete works, even when there are only articles on major operas (this applies to composers like Donizetti and Offenbach).

I hope other people will add to it.

Kleinzach 12:12, 18 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I have recoded the links so that, for example:

Richard Wagner: Lohengrin (Wagner), Siegfried (opera), Tannhäuser (opera),

become:

Richard Wagner: Lohengrin, Siegfried, Tannhäuser,

Kleinzach 01:05, 28 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I have gone through the list to make sure that there is at least the category:operas tag on each article.

Kleinzach 23:22, 5 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I have been through the list to make sure that the links are all valid, e.g.. that Thomson's opera Lord Byron points to Lord Byron (Thomson) and not to a biographical note on the poet. We will need to keep checking new entries.

Kleinzach 18:56, 6 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Someone (I have lost the reference) has pointed out that two of the Rimsky operas listed were only sketches (thank you!). I have removed them and added two titles which were completed works. Kleinzach 12:31, 8 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I have added another 55 operas after going through the red-link composers listed in User:Schneelocke/Classical composers. All of these at least have separate entries in Grove.

Kleinzach 12:41, 15 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

List operas only? Or operettas as well?

This list contains quite a lot of operettas, but is far from complete in that regard.

Is it meant to list only operas, or operettas as well? Listing operettas only for certain composers (i.e. Offenbach) seems unnecessarily inconsistent. I think it should be either both, or none.

Given the difficulty to distinguish clearly between the two genres (opéra comique-operetta), I suggest operettas should be listed as well. If not, they should be removed from entries for Offenbach, Strauss Jr, and others.

202.139.187.55 06:44, 16 January 2006 (UTC) Michael Bednarek[reply]

First of all, the list as a whole is far from complete. Those of us who are actively working on the Project at the moment have been trying to include all well-known operas, and we want to ensure that there are proper entries for those as soon as possible.

As to operettas, you are absolutely right about the grey area in the opera/operetta area, and we've listed all the operettas for which Wikipedia entries already existed, plus a few others that seemed important for certain composers. I've also contributed composer stubs where there were no entries for the operettas' composers. You will be very welcome if you want to join the project (preferably with a user name rather than just an IP address) - feel free to add as many operettas as you like to the list, and to create entries and/or stubs for them.

While you're there, I notice that you have changed The Pearl Fishers to Les pêcheurs de perles, (which redirects to The Pearl Fishers!). Wikipedia's naming convention for operas states that established English names should be used in preference to original-language names. Obviously, there is a grey area here, too...

--GuillaumeTell 12:01, 16 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry about the name change of the Pearl Fishers - I read that article on naming conventions, but I'm afraid it didn't make things very clear. Obviously, you can change it back...

RE Operettas: I've started adding a few composers and titles to the List_of_operettas, and then afterwards realised that there is a more comprehensive Liste von Operetten; I suppose I'll finish what I want to add to the former, before (possibly) returning to this Project Page.

PS: I'll get around to creating a user name for me real-soon-now (TM).

218.214.126.129 13:37, 16 January 2006 (UTC) Michael Bednarek[reply]

Thanks for the helpful reply.

If I had my way, all operas would be listed under their original titles, with copious redirects from English forms, but we have to follow official Wikipedia policy. Kleinzach and I have agreed a (short!) list of popular titles which are usually known by their English names, give or take a Thieving Magpie or a Mastersingers of Nuremberg, which I think he's planning to post somewhere for people to comment on, not that it's a matter of life and death.

As to the List_of_operettas, I'm doubtful about whether we need this. One reason is the "what is an operetta?" question that you raise above. Another is that, now that we are seriously including operettas in this list - and the more the merrier, say I - it's highly conceivable that people will add things to one list and not the other, as I guess you've done. Perhaps we need a note in the list of operettas to say that the one here is the master list.

The existence of another better list in the German Wikipedia is good news in one sense (more titles) but bad in another (more lists that don't agree with each other). No doubt the French, Hungarian, Spanish (Zarzuela, anyone?) and goodness knows where else Wikipediae all have their own lists. I'm starting to get a headache.

--GuillaumeTell 17:23, 16 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Welcome Michael. Delighted to see another contributor here.

Regarding the problem of original/English names, we have tried to work out a policy. I have put up a page at Wikipedia:WikiProject Opera/Translated English names. Please let us have your comments. We are trying to follow Wikipedia policy but restrict English titles to operas which bear genuinely famous English names. We don't want to see people inventing English names as that causes confusion. I have taken the liberty of changing the Pearl Fishers back. Usually it is the other way! (I think we can blame the 'Pearl Fishers duet' for popularizing the name in English!)

Regarding operettas, people in the past have sometimes treated them as a genre of opera and sometimes tried to hive them off as a separate art form. The present categories/genres are unsatisfactory as you may have discovered. This is not something we have tried to deal with yet. Anyway we are trying to include all the main operettas.

Kleinzach 20:20, 16 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Additions

I have added the following additions, in no small part because I intend to work on them: Alfred Cellier (Victorian composer), and some of Sullivan's minor operas (Ivanhoe, Haddon Hall, etc). I should probably add Frederick Clay as well, since half his works are with Gilbert, and I'm setting forth to really update the Gilbert and/or Sullivan pages to great lengths.

And should one person tell me that Gilbert and Sullivan aren't worthy or something like that... well, I'll probably respond with good humour. But secretly hate you. *grin* Adam Cuerden 19:27, 31 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the additions. The general idea here is that any works we list should be worth an article on its own. As you may have noticed stubs are blue roman and developed articles are in bold. You might also like to add to The opera corpus which was floated off this list as a public page. - Kleinzach 19:44, 31 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Weel, Sullivan's minor works are going through a major revival at present, and Gilbert's plays are beginning to be rediscovered. And Dorothy, in its day and for a long time after was immensely popular. So, I think that all of it's relevant enough =) Adam Cuerden 20:18, 31 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Orpheus in the Underworld

I'd appreciate anyone who'd look at my revision to this opera and comment. It's an awkward one, since it exists in numerous versions, has no standard titles of songs in English, and worse, suffers from a... what are they called? Hammer and Park? score, which mixes in songs from other Offenbach operas. I've seen no way forward but a combined plot and song list, and would REALLY appreciate suggestions on how to sort that mess out. Adam Cuerden 21:53, 31 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Have managed to do a heavily referenced synopsis, followed by a list of numbers. Still needs work, but short of abandoning my main projects to start researching new ones, I'm not the one to move it forward.

Which, knowing me, translates as "If no-one does it in a week, I'll end up doing it". Ah, well. Adam Cuerden 00:47, 1 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Richard deCosta

This person and his opera Kai, Death of Dreams are down for deletion. I created the original stub for him, but there's no reason why he or it needs to be on our list (or in the Corpus). --GuillaumeTell 22:13, 1 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

OK. I will delete from the Corpus. - Kleinzach 22:21, 1 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

If I might ask, why delete him? Not important enough, or? (Not that I've heard of him... Adam Cuerden 00:09, 2 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Follow the link in the header above and go to the "this article's entry" link in the deletion box at the top. Not Notable because a nebulous vanity project or something like that. One of the weaknesses of Wikipedia is that anyone can do anything anywhere.

BTW, do sign in on the Opera Project page (we need operetta people), and put something on your User page (if you want to) so it doesn't come up as red all the time. --GuillaumeTell 00:40, 2 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Ah, yes. See now. However, where is the opera project page? Haven't really figured out the trees yet. Adam Cuerden 18:11, 2 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Hey, to get to the main page just take off the backslash and whatever comes after it. So, that means it's Wikipedia:WikiProject Opera. Mak emi 18:15, 2 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]