Talk:Andy Ngo: Difference between revisions

BRD: "twitter account of a primary subject is not a reliable source"

@Jweiss11: you have reverted this change claiming, that a "Twitter account of a primary subject is not a reliable source". This makes no sense. The accusation is the tweet, how on Earth can a different source be more reliable than that? Could you please quote related Wikipedia rules, otherwise I will reintroduce the change. BeŻet (talk) 10:18, 12 August 2019 (UTC)

WP:BLPSPS: Never use self-published sources—including but not limited to books, zines, websites, blogs, and tweets—as sources of material about a living person, unless written or published by the subject of the article. That's pretty cut and dry. An accusation about a living person only supported by a self-published source absolutely violates WP:BLP and should be removed on sight. Red Rock Canyon (talk) 10:24, 12 August 2019 (UTC)

unless written or published by the subject of the article - this rule applies to self-published sources talking about a different person, it doesn't discourage using Tweets as sources of information especially if the tweet itself is made by the person you are talking about, in this case, the member of DSA. This is exactly why we have the cite tweet template. Following your logic, a tweet would never ever be appropriate as a source of information. Since we are talking about a member of DSA accusing Ngo, and we literally point at the tweet where he is doing it, it seems like a no-brainer to me that this is allowed by the rules. BeŻet (talk) 22:13, 12 August 2019 (UTC)

The subject of the article is Andy Ngo, not the DSA, nor this member of the DSA. Aside from the potential bias/POV issue with using this tweet, this tidbit isn't notable unless some reliable third-party source wrote about it. Did they? Jweiss11 (talk) 23:44, 12 August 2019 (UTC)

Exactly what Jweiss11 said. Using a tweet as a source to make accusations about a living person is the definition of content forbidden by BLPSPS. It's the entire reason that policy exists. The only exception to BLPSPS is that we can use a person's self-published writing about themselves as a source for basic facts about them, and even that usage is strictly limited.

Look at the next section of the policy, which further defines and limits even that already limited exception. So even if this were an article about whoever the fuck @alsoconnor is, this tweet would still be unusable as a source. It's self-serving, it makes a claim about a third party (Andy Ngo), and there is no reason to believe that this tweet is a genuine record of something that actually happened to a member of the DSA. It's a tweet, it could be something some random person just made up. Red Rock Canyon (talk) 14:26, 13 August 2019 (UTC)

Clearly unacceptable; tweets by a random DSA member are not remotely a reliable source. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 14:57, 13 August 2019 (UTC)

So your argument is basically that this is not notable, which is an argument you can defend, but that's different from it not being reliable. BeŻet (talk) 20:06, 13 August 2019 (UTC)

It is neither reliable nor notable. If you don't believe us, then take it to WP:RSN or WP:BLP. That tweet can't be used as a source in any article for any reason. Red Rock Canyon (talk) 20:25, 13 August 2019 (UTC)

I saw that the other source for similar content in that paragraph is also unreliable, and have removed it [1]. The source, [2], is clearly labelled "blog". According to WP:NEWSBLOG: Several newspapers, magazines, and other news organizations host columns on their web sites that they call blogs. These may be acceptable sources if the writers are professionals, but use them with caution because the blog may not be subject to the news organization's normal fact-checking process. According to the author's biography, [3], he is a student and neither a professional journalist nor a regularly contributor to The Spectator, so it's not reliable source for factual claims, and the author's opinion is not relevant to the article. Red Rock Canyon (talk) 21:02, 13 August 2019 (UTC)

The doxxing thing is mentioned in Vox, already cited elsewhere in the article but not (previously) used for this; that seems like a usable source. --Aquillion (talk) 02:01, 17 August 2019 (UTC)

You're right. That Vox article supports the claims of doxxing and is a reliable source for that material. I forgot that was in there, I should've just added that source instead of removing the material entirely. I'm not so sure about Jacobin though. I think they're a questionable source at best, and this particle article may be even worse than most of their work, so the claims that are only mentioned there might need to be removed. I'll look into it more later. Red Rock Canyon (talk) 02:25, 17 August 2019 (UTC)

Someone reverted it; I think they're confused, since it's clearly more reliable than the other source, which they left in, and is already cited elsewhere in the article anyway. --Aquillion (talk) 02:41, 17 August 2019 (UTC)

Apologies, I think I was confused. I did try to fix some things in that passage. Shinealittlelight (talk) 03:07, 17 August 2019 (UTC)

I've started a discussion at Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons/Noticeboard#Jacobin on Andy Ngo on this subject. In particular, I'm worried that the claim according to Jacobin, friends of two activists said that they had to go into hiding after Ngo revealed their names because they became subjects of harrassment violates BLP because even with attribution, we're just reporting on someone else repeating second-hand allegations. Red Rock Canyon (talk) 03:51, 19 August 2019 (UTC)

Portland 2019

I suppose we'll have to wait for the articles if they haven't already been written but Andy falsely claimed that antifa attacked facists with a hammer and then when it was pointed out that the facists brought the hammer claimed it was probably self-defense. [Tweet for now]. He also suggested anti-facist protesters were attacking a father with a child but well known ["Based Spartan"] is with [his 24 year old daughter] and is a known [agitator]. [Tweet for now]. [Vice Profile]

I propose this could potentially be a new section to his bio.

Ramdomwolf 24.52.199.240 (talk) 14:55, 18 August 2019 (UTC)

Hi. Due to his profuse, abundant and plentiful lying, can we please just add a section of all the instances where he publicly went and lied to people? I believe this to be both relevant and easily obtainable information. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 179.27.190.162 (talk) 12:47, 19 August 2019 (UTC)

BRD: "Ngo made several inacurrate claims about the events that unfolded" is not supported by the source

@Red Rock Canyon: the source clearly states all the inaccurate claim he made and why they were inaccurate:

"Two flare-ups caught on video have become the latest flash points between ideological opponents, racking up millions of views online and spreading chaotic scenes that were cast with inaccurate claims and provided limited context. Both were promoted by local conservative writer Andy Ngo (...)"

I will reintroduce the change immediately after 24 hours of your revert. Please consult the source and do not remove content without reading sources properly. BeŻet (talk) 13:00, 19 August 2019 (UTC)

I don't see that the article clearly says that Ngo made inaccurate claims. The quote you provide was so poorly written that it's hard to tell what it is saying. In particular, it isn't clear to me that the article is saying that Ngo made inaccurate claims. It might just be saying that the video itself was misleading, or that the video has led to unspecified subjects making inaccurate claims, or who knows. It is so poorly written that I don't think it is a great source. Shinealittlelight (talk) 13:15, 19 August 2019 (UTC)

That's nonsense. He made widely misleading, manipulative and inaccurate claims, and the article clearly and thoroughly explains why they were inaccurate. Literally the whole article talks about Ngo's claims. Are we both looking at two different articles? BeŻet (talk) 13:19, 19 August 2019 (UTC)

Yes, we are looking at the same article. I did look at the whole article, but I focused on the quote you provided above. That quote does not say that Ngo made inaccurate claims, nor does the piece ever directly say that. It says that Ngo promoted some videos that spread "chatotic scenes that were cast with inaccurate claims". But the passive construction here "were cast with inaccurate claims" leaves the subject unclear. Later in the article, for example, it says that There have been widely circulated claims, including those made by reporters at the scene, that those riding in the shuttle bus were Proud Boys. It appears that they are actually members of the American Guard, a group the Anti-Defamation League labels a white supremacist organization. The inaccurate claim under discussion here is not due to Ngo, but to unspecified reporters and others, some of whom were at the scene. What the piece appears to do is to add additional information to the claims Ngo made. I don't even see that any added info ever contradicts what Ngo said. But the source certainly never directly says that Ngo made inaccurate claims. Shinealittlelight (talk) 13:34, 19 August 2019 (UTC)

Again, that's nonsense. The article directly quotes the claims made by Andy, presents it as a narrative he attempted to present and then explains why the narrative was misleading and lacked context. These mental gymnastics attempting to obfuscate what the article is about are quite worrying. BeŻet (talk) 13:43, 19 August 2019 (UTC)

First, Shinealittlelight is correct that that sentence is poorly written and hard to understand. Second, the rest of the article neither claims nor demonstrates that Ngo made inaccurate claims. Here's the paragraph that includes the phrase "inaccurate claims" and then a grammatical breakdown where I rewrite it as a series of simple sentences, laying out which nouns are grammatically associated with which verbs:

Two flare-ups caught on video have become the latest flash points between ideological opponents, racking up millions of views online and spreading chaotic scenes that were cast with inaccurate claims and provided limited context. Both were promoted by local conservative writer Andy Ngo, who was assaulted by black-clad demonstrators during a June protest in Portland and has more than 270,000 Twitter followers.

Two flare-ups were caught on video. The flare-ups have become the latest flash points between ideological opponents. The flare-ups have racked up millions of views online. The flare-ups have spread chaotic scenes. The chaotic scenes were cast with inaccurate claims. The scenes provided limited context. Both flare-ups were promoted by local conservative writer Andy Ngo.

Quite frankly, it's a complete mess. Some of those verbs are probably meant to be associated with different nouns, but the author has no idea how to structure clauses and attributive phrases. It's unclear what the hell "chaotic scenes that were cast with inaccurate claims" is supposed to mean. To the extent that it's possible to tell what the author is saying, he's not saying Ngo made inaccurate claims.

But that paragraph is not the whole article. The rest of the article discusses two particular incidences caught on film and Andy Ngos' tweets about them. It does not explicitly say or demonstrate that Ngo made inaccurate claims. In the first one, Andy Ngo said this: Antifa attacks people on a bus. They try to pull them out and hit them with a hammer. The article then describes what happened. Protesters attacked a bus and tried to pull people out. Apparently, someone in the bus pulled out a hammer. One of the protesters grabbed the hammer and threw it back at them. The author also notes that they haven't been able to confirm who had the hammer first, they're just going by footage that is "grainy and hard to see." The next claim is this: A large antifa mob chase & attack a man & a young girl who got separated from the others. No police. The article then describes what happened: Some counterprotesters appear to throw liquid on the man, who responds by wildly swinging his shield at people near him. The crowd then begins to move in on the man and his female companion, who retreat. The crowd continues to pursue them for more than a minute as they eventually make their way onto the Morrison Bridge and take off. The article then goes into slightly more detail about who this man is, but nothing contradicts the claim Andy Ngo made.

Bezet, you have added quite a few poorly sourced accusations about Andy Ngo to this article. This is the third that I've seen. I haven't removed the stuff sourced to Jacobin yet because I'm waiting for more opinions on the BLP noticeboard, but everyone who's responded so far thinks that it should be removed from the article. Please familiarize yourself with WP:BLP and be more cautious when adding controversial material. You should perhaps wait to get confirmation from multiple high-quality sources before adding accusations against a living person. Red Rock Canyon (talk) 13:59, 19 August 2019 (UTC)

I find it quite ironic to be talking about "poorly sourced accusations" when discussing Any Ngo. You can't dismiss a source you don't like as "poor". It is absolutely clear what the article is talking about, the misleading claims Andy made without providing any context. You are trying to defend Andy by stating that what he said wasn't false. It wasn't false, but it was utterly misleading and manipulative, which is what the article is clearly discussing. The article is not saying that he made a false statement, but a misleading one. "Inaccurate claims and provided limited context", this is what Andy "promoted", according to the article. I'm not sure how clearer this could be. BeŻet (talk) 14:09, 19 August 2019 (UTC)

I am not trying to defend Andy Ngo. I don't give a shit about Andy Ngo. I hadn't even heard his name until I saw something about this article on a noticeboard a month ago. I am trying to defend Wikipedia's policies, in this case WP:BLP. That article is not a source for the claim you are attributing to it because it doesn't support it. Do not read in between the lines of sources to come to your own conclusions. If the source does not explicitly say Ngo's claims were inaccurate or show that his claims were contradicted by reality, then we cannot say that. And so far I've only talked about verifiability. What about WP:DUE? Verifiability is a prerequisite for inclusion; it does not **guarantee** inclusion. Even if the source did support these claims, why should we include them? From what I can tell, Ngo tweets a lot. Online blogs and newspapers mention his tweets a lot. His entire careers seems to consist of tweeting things that newspapers and news channels will repeat, either to support or condemn. Why should these tweets in particular be in the article? This is supposed to be a biographical article about Ngo, not an exhaustive list of times he was mentioned in the news. Red Rock Canyon (talk) 14:30, 19 August 2019 (UTC)

Once again, the article clearly presents a narrative by using a direct quote from Andy. How is this reading in between the lines? We should be taking all thtis at face value. BeŻet (talk) 14:42, 19 August 2019 (UTC)

Possible source: https://www.oregonlive.com/news/2019/08/1-hammer-1-antifa-mob-chase-a-closer-look-at-portlands-viral-protest-moments.html EvergreenFir (talk) 19:43, 19 August 2019 (UTC)

That's the source we've been discussing. They've apparently altered the language that was quoted above; now the relevant passage says Two flare-ups caught on video have become the latest flash points between ideological opponents, racking up millions of views online and spreading chaotic scenes riddled [previously: that were cast] with inaccurate claims and limited context. So now the piece says that the scenes were riddled with inaccurate claims. Not sure what that even means. Shinealittlelight (talk) 21:21, 19 August 2019 (UTC)

My mistake... one more source that might be helpful here: https://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/us/us-far-right-group-vows-to-march-monthly-following-portland-rally-1.3990110 which states:

Several incidents took place after the main body of right-wingers left the city. According to reporters on the west side of the Willamette river, a school bus similar to one used by the right-wing Proud Boys group at previous events had its windows smashed and was pepper-sprayed by anti-fascists.

Video and photos of the incident appeared to show an occupant of the bus wielding a hammer which was then seized by an antifascist.

John Turano, also known as “Based Spartan”, and a familiar figure at right-wing rallies on the west coast in recent years, was seen on the east side arguing with other right-wingers about leaving, saying: “Antifa are over there.” Video showed Turano and his daughter later being driven out of the west side downtown area by a large crowd of counter-protesters.

Videos appearing to show other altercations were posted to social media.

EvergreenFir (talk) 21:37, 19 August 2019 (UTC)

This source excludes the seemingly important detail that the Antifa member threw the hammer at his opponent. Also, no mention of Ngo in this source (not in connection with the two events in question, I mean). Shinealittlelight (talk) 21:43, 19 August 2019 (UTC)

Threw back, but yes. I was searching "Andy Ngo hammer" and this came up... but the mentions are separate. This might be something we need to wait on until RS pick it up more. It seems clear that Ngo's account(s) are contested. EvergreenFir (talk) 21:46, 19 August 2019 (UTC)

I think "throw back" is inaccurate, but let's let that go. I haven't yet heard an RS that questions Ngo's account (as opposed to elaborating on it). Shinealittlelight (talk) 21:55, 19 August 2019 (UTC)

Re-adding the material

I see you've added the material in again. This time, you have two sources (the Daily Dot and Huffington Post) that do support the claim. I still don't think this material should be in the article for the other reason I mentioned: it doesn't satisfy WP:DUE. Ngo tweets dozens of times a day, and many of those tweets are later challenged as inaccurate. I do not see what makes this latest event worth inclusion. If we included every time some online news site said Andy Ngo tweeted something that distorts the truth, then this entire article would consist of single sentences saying, "on x day, Andy Ngo tweeted y and was accused by z of distorting the truth." This is supposed to be an encyclopedia article, not an exhaustive list of times Ngo was mentioned in the news.

WP:VERIFIABILITY is the minimum requirement for inclusion; it is not sufficient reason for inclusion. WP:NPOV is also a policy, and part of that reads: An article should not give undue weight to minor aspects of its subject, but should strive to treat each aspect with a weight proportional to its treatment in the body of reliable, published material on the subject. For example, discussion of isolated events, criticisms, or news reports about a subject may be verifiable and impartial, but still disproportionate to their overall significance to the article topic. This is a concern especially in relation to recent events that may be in the news. Ngo's habit of distorting the truth is probably significant enough for inclusion, but that does not mean that each individual time he tweets some claim that lacks context should be included in the article.

If you were able to find sources to support a general statement describing criticism Ngo has received for making inaccurate claims and distorting the truth, I would support including that. However, I do not believe we have sufficient perspective to include some minor controversy that happened three days ago. Maybe some day in the future, these stupid tweets will be seen as some kind of major aspect of Ngo's life and work, and will be worthy of inclusion. But Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, it is WP:NOTNEWS: most newsworthy events do not qualify for inclusion. You added this material, it was reverted and challenged by two editors. Please remove it and do not add it again unless there is consensus for inclusion. Red Rock Canyon (talk) 02:04, 21 August 2019 (UTC)

I agree with Red Rock Canyon, and I want to add that I don't think these additional pieces are RS for the statement that was added to the article. Neither of them uses the word 'inaccurate' or identifies what statement is supposed to be untrue. Shinealittlelight (talk) 02:22, 21 August 2019 (UTC)

I concur with Red Rock Canyon and Shinealittlelight and removed this content. It's obvious POV-pushing. Jweiss11 (talk) 03:58, 21 August 2019 (UTC)

I don't see how this content is 'POV-pushing'. Care to explain, Jweiss11? PeterTheFourth (talk) 06:13, 21 August 2019 (UTC)

Hi Jweiss11. You removed the content, claiming it was 'POV-pushing'. Please explain how it is. PeterTheFourth (talk) 05:11, 23 August 2019 (UTC)

This is ridiculous on several levels. It is very due to report on Andy's repeated misinformation. It has been doing rounds all over the internet, and multiple media outlets have reported on it. Describing this as "exhaustive list of times Ngo was mentioned in the news" is extremely dishonest. There are THREE sources now talking about how much he distorted the truth (which also fits all of his previous "achievements" listed in the article). This is not a minor controversy – it's a series of misleading statements that have been picked up by the media. BeŻet (talk) 10:36, 21 August 2019 (UTC)

I repeat: the articles do not use 'inaccurate', and they do not identify any false statements he made. Also, those who are reinstating the content are doing so against consensus, and are edit warring. Please remove until we have consensus. Shinealittlelight (talk) 10:39, 21 August 2019 (UTC)

Actually the term used is 'distortion of the truth' which is harsher, and they identify several misleading statements he made. Also I'd like to remind people that we should be reverting only when necessary, not when you disagree with something or you don't like something. I will reintroduce the change after 24 hours and I implore you to discuss why you feel this should be removed because there isn't any rule broken, just a non-objective opinion that somehow, despite three sources talking about it, it's not important. BeŻet (talk) 10:47, 21 August 2019 (UTC)

Huff post says distortion, which is not the same as inaccurate, and is not very precise. What false statement did Ngo make? Also: I haven't reverted, I'm not participating in the edit war, and your reinstatement was an edit war against consensus. BRD please. Shinealittlelight (talk) 10:53, 21 August 2019 (UTC)

Since the edit was removed despite not breaking any rules, it's arguably a trigger-happy use of the revert functionality. Yes, distortion implies that Andy has purposefully manipulated his followers, while "inaccurate" is a more delicate way of describing it. I'm happy to use "distortion of truth" instead. If you read the articles, you will learn what misleading statements Andy has made: implying that antifascist activists attacked "a man" with a hammer (without clarifying that the man was a far-right thug who attacked first with said hammer), implying that antifascist activists have been attacking a "man" who is seen lying on the floor with his wife/spouse (without clarifying that said man was agitating and attacking antifascist activists with his taped up fists) etc. etc. You can read the articles if you want to learn more. BeŻet (talk) 11:02, 21 August 2019 (UTC)

Nope, it's an edit war. BRD is the process, and you reinstated without consensus. And right, Ngo said they attacked a man with a hammer, and that's what they did, so his statement was true. You can add more information, but that doesn't make him not a man, and it doesn't make it false that they threw a hammer at him. Similar remarks apply to the other statement. Shinealittlelight (talk) 11:12, 21 August 2019 (UTC)

I did not "reinstate without consensus", the previous argument presented was that the source wasn't clear about Andy making misleading statements, so I've added two more sources clearly stating that to resolve the issue. It has now been removed because a different excuse has been established, that for some reason this is not WP:DUE, which I think is not a valid reason for a revert, and the removal of the content should be first discussed before removing it. BeŻet (talk) 12:51, 21 August 2019 (UTC)

The content was just reinstated again against consensus. I request that BeŻet self revert and continue discussion here, and not add the content again unless consensus to do so is reached. Shinealittlelight (talk) 13:11, 22 August 2019 (UTC)

This is not how this works. You cannot remove portions of the article and then claim that there is no consensus, because you don't agree with it. I'd like to point you at Wikipedia:BRD: Revert an edit if it is not an improvement, and it cannot be immediately fixed by refinement. Consider reverting only when necessary. BRD does not encourage reverting, but recognizes that reversions happen. There are FOUR sources talking about Ngo's manipulations, so stating that it is now WP:DUE is not objective by any means. Therefore it is quite dishonest to use that as an argument for reverting. BeŻet (talk) 14:06, 22 August 2019 (UTC)

Yes, this is how it works. Three editors have told you that they disagree with this material being added. We have given you reasons for our opposition. You must demonstrate consensus before making any change to the article. Red Rock Canyon (talk) 14:10, 22 August 2019 (UTC)

But it's impossible to discuss this since @Jweiss11: hasn't explained why it's "obvious POV-pushing" and I've already addressed the other editor's comment regarding language. It is also unclear what are "sources to support a general statement describing criticism Ngo has received for making inaccurate claims and distorting the truth", if you don't treat the existing sources as such. Perhaps if you explained what you would find satisfactory this situation could be resolved. BeŻet (talk) 18:01, 23 August 2019 (UTC)

If you really want to add this material, then I suggest you open a (neutrally-worded) RFC on the question of whether this material should be included. Then that can be publicized with (neutrally-worded) notifications at relevant noticeboards, WP:NPOV, WP:AmPol, etc. That will bring in new editors to the discussion and we can have a formal determination of consensus. Personally, what I'm looking for in material added to this article is some indication that discussions of Andy Ngo years from now will include descriptions of it. We cannot see the future, obviously, but my view is that in 5 or 10 or 20 years, if anyone were to write a biography of Andy Ngo, they might mention that time he had milkshakes poured on him and was punched in the face. At the very least, that's what he's known for most right now, and it happened a couple months ago. They might describe a general tendency towards stretching the truth, or leaving out inconvenient facts. But those tweets you're trying to add to the article are going to be forgotten within weeks. Red Rock Canyon (talk) 19:26, 23 August 2019 (UTC)

I don't believe it's fair to say Jweiss11 is challenging the additions as I've invited him to talk about any objections he has twice and he's declined to do so. PeterTheFourth (talk) 07:23, 24 August 2019 (UTC)

You don't get to decide whether another editor's concerns are valid. Red Rock Canyon (talk) 09:08, 24 August 2019 (UTC)

Yes he does as if we want to work on Wikipedia in a fair and respectable way, editors should explain themselves and not just post baseless acusations. BeŻet (talk) 09:44, 24 August 2019 (UTC)

@Red Rock Canyon: Gentle reminder that Wikipedia is not decided by vote, and that consensus takes into account the strength of arguments. PeterTheFourth (talk) 12:40, 24 August 2019 (UTC)

BeŻet and PeterTheFourth have asked me to explained why I thought BeŻet's edit, which I reverted here, was POV-pushing. The editorializing of "that he wasn't present at" strikes me as POV-pushing. Journalists and opinion-writers report on events at which they aren't psychically present all time. This is not remarkable. It's only remarkable if you're on a mission to neg Ngo for anything and everything. I also don't think it's fair and neutral to say that Ngo's reporting on the event was "inaccurate". He may indeed have been selective in what he reported. But this again makes him totally unremarkable as a journalist or opinion-writer. The balancing of "neo-fascist groups and anti-fascists" also seems like a political hand-tipping. A neutral, rationale presentation of confrontations like we've seen in Portland of late either wouldn't make that sort of qualitative judgement of a vast disparity between two opponent's relative authoritarianism, or it would present the conflict as one between two illiberal, politically extreme groups on opposite poles of the political spectrum. Jweiss11 (talk) 00:00, 25 August 2019 (UTC)

Thank you for taking the time to explain your revert. I've addressed the concerns about 'wasn't present at', as it doesn't seem particularly important (people often write about things they weren't present at, both untruthfully and truthfully.) If somebody disagrees, they're welcome to re-add that part. I've tried to lean closely to what reliable sources say - I'm aware that you have your own personal opinions about the events and the media's coverage of Ngo, but we must adhere to what the reliable sources say. We are not here to WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS. PeterTheFourth (talk) 02:45, 25 August 2019 (UTC)

You may believe that you have addressed Jweiss11's concerns, but you haven't addressed mine. I still believe that this is a minor story that will completely disappear within weeks, if not days. Let's look at the sources: you've got three news articles all published within a 36 hour period, and a link to an advocacy group (also published within 24 hours of the others). To me, this does not demonstrate that this event carries the kind of lasting significance that justifies its inclusion. This is an encyclopedia, not a compendium of times people lied on Twitter. You still don't have a consensus for inclusion, please stop adding this material until you do. If you're so sure that this is necessary, then hold an RFC. Red Rock Canyon (talk) 10:03, 25 August 2019 (UTC)

I totally agree with Red Rock Canyon. Also, I don't see that anyone ever addressed the concern of Jweiss11 that it isn't fair and neutral to say that Ngo's reporting on the event was "inaccurate". That was also a concern of mine above, which was never addressed. "Inaccurate" is not the term used by any of these sources, and nobody has identified any statement from Ngo that was inaccurate. Finally: please stop edit warring. If you want to address our concerns, try proposing language and additional sources here. Shinealittlelight (talk) 11:54, 25 August 2019 (UTC)

Daily Dot: A video has surfaced on Twitter that shows conservative journalist Andy Ngo laughing as members of the far-right group Patriot Prayer plan an attack on anti-fascist patrons at a Portland bar. The incident, which happened in May, is now at the center of a lawsuit. The antifa members were having a peaceful May Day celebration when Patriot Prayer members came to protest, according to the Portland Mercury. Several fights broke out, and now the bar is suing the Patriot Prayer members for allegedly causing the riot. Ngo covered the event on Twitter and blamed the brawl on antifa. ... In Ngo’s coverage of the riots, he posted misleading videos that crop out violent actions from Patriot Prayer members, putting the blame fully on antifa. Since then, videos have emerged that discredit several of his tweets. Since the videos and his confrontations with antifa are what he's famous for, a WP:RS saying that he edits his videos misleadingly and has worked with a group intentionally planning violent confrontation, only to try and blame the people they attacked after the fact, certainly both seem worth mentioning. --Aquillion (talk) 04:26, 27 August 2019 (UTC)

I believe this point is now moot as the coverage of his manipulations and ties to far-right groups is widely covered now in articles that appeared in the last couple days. BeŻet (talk) 21:56, 28 August 2019 (UTC)

Rock or brick thrown with force that struck his head

It's clear an antifa member threw a brick or rock with force that hit Andy at the back of his head while Andy was walking away. No doubt that was the cause of his serious brain injury. Why is there not word about this in this article?? --IHTS (talk) 22:57, 22 August 2019 (UTC)

It has to be reported in a reliable source. All these articles (are supposed to) do is summarize reliable sources. So if you want to add some information, you have to give the other editors a reliable source for that information. Shinealittlelight (talk) 23:11, 22 August 2019 (UTC)

We don't really have a reliable source that explains how Ngo came to have brain damage, we can just report that he is brain damaged at the moment. PeterTheFourth (talk)

Right. (Funny though, it's WP:BLUESKY that 1) his brain injury was incurred as a result of the attack in the park, & 2) nobody in the world receives a brain injury from a thrown milkshake.) --IHTS (talk) 05:58, 23 August 2019 (UTC)

What I'd like to see more of from reliable sources is the impact his brain damage has on his politics. PeterTheFourth (talk) 06:39, 23 August 2019 (UTC)

??? --IHTS (talk) 08:17, 23 August 2019 (UTC)

I guess I figured it was his being hit in the head by the guy at the beginning of the video that caused the brain hemorrhage. There's no evidence I'm aware of that he has ongoing brain damage, and the suggestion that he does is a violation of WP:BLP and should be struck. Shinealittlelight (talk) 10:36, 23 August 2019 (UTC)

The widely circulated video shows nothing of that sort and I can't see any major source reporting on this. Where did you find this specific information? BeŻet (talk) 17:57, 23 August 2019 (UTC)

Yeah "it's clear" is not good enough. The article has has to be based on what reliable sources specifically say. Red Rock Canyon (talk) 18:00, 23 August 2019 (UTC)

I'd also like to point out that it's absolutely not WP:BLUESKY that he suffered any brain damage at all, since the only source of this information is his attorney and a single person that supposedly received a *copy* of his hospital records. Therefore, any assumptions and declarations about how he got the supposed brain damage is completely WP:OR. BeŻet (talk) 18:04, 23 August 2019 (UTC)

The "single person" that he gave his discharge papers to was a journalist working for Buzzfeed news, which is regarded here as RS. That journalist published this report: Ngo sent me a copy of his discharge paperwork from the hospital. The document confirmed his claim that he had suffered a subarachnoid hemorrhage — a brain bleed. If this doesn't show us that he had a subarachnoid hemorrhage, then what would? Shinealittlelight (talk) 18:31, 23 August 2019 (UTC)

The discharge paperwork itself, of course. BeŻet (talk) 19:15, 23 August 2019 (UTC)

That would be a primary source in this case, and not usable on Wikipedia. Shinealittlelight (talk) 21:00, 23 August 2019 (UTC)

Firstly, I implore you to read Wikipedia:Identifying and using primary sources. Secondly, if the discharge paperwork was made public, a secondary source would be surely available. Ngo is known for manipulations and making false and inaccurate statements, therefore him sending someone a "copy" of that document isn't undeniable proof. BeŻet (talk) 09:41, 24 August 2019 (UTC)

I did read that. The documents themselves would be a primary source in this case. We do have a secondary RS reporting on the documents. Shinealittlelight (talk) 11:45, 24 August 2019 (UTC)

I did not write that it was WP:BLUESKY Ngo suffered a brain injury. (A fact like that needs RSs.) I wrote that it is WP:BLUESKY the (presumed RS-supported) injury was incurred as a result of the attack in the park. --IHTS (talk) 13:24, 24 August 2019 (UTC)

But how is it BLUESKY? BeŻet (talk) 14:25, 24 August 2019 (UTC)

Journalist

Several reliable sources call Ngo a writer to distinguish him from journalists, since his work is usually politically motivated and often contains inaccuracies. Darthmenisis (talk) 20:30, 23 August 2019 (UTC)

I think we should definitely consider this, as it's true that a lot of people question the "journalist" label. BeŻet (talk) 09:43, 24 August 2019 (UTC)

It has already been discussed at length. Shinealittlelight (talk) 11:46, 24 August 2019 (UTC)

That's inaccurate, it has been discussed, but not "at length", and his image in the media is constantly evolving. BeŻet (talk) 12:00, 24 August 2019 (UTC)

It's been discussed elsewhere. In any case, the current consensus is that he's a journalist. He's described that way in tons of RS across the spectrum. Shinealittlelight (talk) 12:11, 24 August 2019 (UTC)

If he's been proven to give half truths and otherwise distort information on a fairly frequent basis, then we should probably consider that in addition to what RS say Darthmenisis (talk) 23:51, 24 August 2019 (UTC)

I think we should consider at least calling him a "right-wing journalist" (or "right-wing conservative journalist"). He has been called right-wing by several reliable sources, and I think this description more aptly matches what he does and where he stands. BeŻet (talk) 13:01, 27 August 2019 (UTC)

The previous discussion was closed prematurely (by someone who was involved in the discussion and wanted to call him a journalist, cutting off someone who was objecting, no less.) While some sources describe him as a journalist, others express obvious skepticism. For example:

• Oregon Live calls him right-wing writer in headline, Andy Ngo, a right-leaning provocateur with online news and opinion outlet Quillette, which identifies Ngo as an editor and photojournalist, went to the left-wing demonstration around noon on Saturday in body. Attributing his status to Quillette rather than stating it in-text is a clear indication of skepticism.
• The Guardian says that Ngo describes himself as a journalist, and his work has appeared almost exclusively in hyper-partisan conservative outlets like The College Fix. There was no media accreditation, but Ngo captured cellphone video, and this became the unchallenged record of the event. Again, "describes himself as" is a clear expression of skepticism.
• GQ describes him as a conservative activist.
• Business Insider describes him as an editor at Quillette.
• Portland Mercury describes him as a conservative writer.
• The Independent describes him as a conservative writer.
• Buzzfeed specifically notes that the descriptor is controversial, saying that Smaller, semantic debates have spun off, mostly on Twitter, about the nature of the word “journalist” as it applies to Ngo and the nature of the word “violence” as it applies to nonphysical harm.
• Daily Beast calls him a "writer".
• Huffington Post calls him a "writer"

That's enough to show, I think, that his description as a journalist is not uncontroversial and should not be stated in the lead as uncontroversial fact. Either way, both these sources and the ones referring to him as a journalist also tend to add the descriptor of conservative or right-wing, so one of those should be in the lead regardless. --Aquillion (talk) 05:43, 28 August 2019 (UTC)

I agree that there is enough skepticism around this, and some media outlets simply described him as a journalist because he self-described himself as such. BeŻet (talk) 10:41, 28 August 2019 (UTC)

I think this source could be a starting point for discussing whether it is worth describing him here as a journalist. Moreover, after the media realised he is a grifter, a lot of them started putting "journalist" in quotation marks. BeŻet (talk) 17:59, 28 August 2019 (UTC)

He's a blogger and propagandist. Calling him a writer is overly kind, but infinitely superior to calling what he does journalism. Simonm223 (talk) 18:42, 28 August 2019 (UTC)

While I agree with this sentiment, we need to base this around what the sources say and build a case for a different name. Right now I don't think the "journalist" label dominates too much in the media, so we can definitely use a different term. BeŻet (talk) 21:53, 28 August 2019 (UTC)

• I have no love for Andy Ngo, but if we're going to have this conversation we better list out the sources that have called him a journalist, too:
  • NYTimes conservative journalist
  • ABC News conservative journalist
  • The Hill, [4] a journalist at conservative website Quilette ... journalist
  • CNN conservative journalist
  • Fox News journalist and photographer
  • Oregon Public Broadcasting part-time journalist
  • Rolling Stone right-wing journalist and provocateur
  • New York Intelligencer journalist
  • Portland Tribune, [5] graduate student and journalist ... independent journalist
  • The Times American journalist
  • Vox conservative journalist
  • VICE News Portland-based journalist ... Right-Wing Blogger
  • The Independent conservative journalist

(It's worth noting all these pieces were written before the latest controversy, however.) WanderingWanda (talk) 22:48, 28 August 2019 (UTC)

In the arena of the written word, a journalist is a type of writer, one who writes specifically about current events. Ngo writes about current events. He is therefore a journalist. It’s pretty simple. Now one may think he is a bad or unethical journalist, and one may be even be correct about that. I have my own doubts about Ngo’s integrity. But this doesn’t make him not a journalist. The assertion that Ngo is not a “journalist” is an antifa talking point. Do we want Wikipedia to be speaking in antifa’s voice here? I suspect some regular editors here do. But what about the rest of us? Jweiss11 (talk) 02:09, 29 August 2019 (UTC)

I'll add that calling him a "conservative journalist" has a certain appeal because people who don't like him tend to object to the "journalist" part and people who do tend to object to the "conservative" part. (The ideal compromise: one that makes no one happy!) Incidentally, regardless of what we call him, I think the fact that the "journalist" label has been debated should probably be mentioned somewhere in the article. WanderingWanda (talk) 02:35, 29 August 2019 (UTC)

Standards people. The name *Journalist* is a designation that should be held to the highest standards.

And immediately revoked and permanently once said person showcases absolutely blantant disregard for ethics or impartiality.

The question is has Andy Ngo done this? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Timotam1952 (talk • contribs) 02:50, 29 August 2019 (UTC)

No, “journalist” is a simple neutral descriptor for someone who produces content about current events, particularly as a paid professional in established publications. Do we really want Wikipedia speaking in antifa’s voice here? Jweiss11 (talk) 03:16, 29 August 2019 (UTC)

That is incorrect, I agree with Timotam1952 that the term "journalist" indicates some level of professionalism that Andy Ngo, when looking at his past "achievements", seems controversial. Moreover, it is not our job to decide whether he is a journalist or not, but it's our job to look at sources and what they day. In the light of recent controversies, several media outlets have questioned the "journalist" label. We are now discussing what is the most appropriate label considering all this. BeŻet (talk) 10:00, 29 August 2019 (UTC)

Then one could simply say writer instead as a neutral term.

-- A writer is someone who is able to be paid to write

(be it a short story... or false/egregiously misleading/plagiarised/ writing about "current events" etc.)

So again the question I ask is, has Andy Ngo been egregious in any way to paint an egregiously misleading story and/or blantantly disregarded facts or ethics?

If so then I believe he should be called a writer at this stage ... at the very most.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Timotam1952 (talk • contribs) 03:26, 29 August 2019 (UTC)

• Comment. I'm not particularly happy that we are having this conversation when previous consensus already determined that Ngo should be called a journalist. I see nothing wrong with Wander's suggestion that we preface it with "Conservative journalist" and think that should be enough to explain to readers that Ngo is more ideological than the typical journalist (who are in fact supposed to be neutral fact finders/reporters). –MJL ‐Talk‐^☖ 03:42, 29 August 2019 (UTC)

• That is not a meaningful consensus. As I read it, someone objected, you disagreed with their objection, they changed their mind, and when a second objection arose you cut it off by closing the discussion despite being clearly involved in it; no discussion consisting of four people could reasonably be considered a clear-cut enough close for someone obviously involved to close it as a consensus, while an objection has just been raised. I can understand your reasoning (from your perspective, when the other person backed down it was over, and it would have been tiresome to repeat the conversation with someone else when there was a 3-1 majority.) But someone involved in a discussion can't close it that quickly while there's clear disagreement and expect it to be taken seriously as an established consensus, especially when so few people were involved in the first place. --Aquillion (talk) 19:48, 29 August 2019 (UTC)

But this discussion is now happening in the context of recent controversies surrounding him, and more media scrutiny being performed regarding his person. BeŻet (talk) 09:52, 29 August 2019 (UTC)

• Considering BeŻet's argument that sources calling Ngo a journalist arise from prior to his firing from Quillette for getting caught on tape offering to run media interference for fascist gangs in exchange for access, I think adhering to the RSes that call him a writer is more neutral. Simonm223 (talk) 12:09, 29 August 2019 (UTC)

@Simonm223: I was not actually aware Ngo was fired for that... gosh dang. I'm fine with calling him a writer then. –MJL ‐Talk‐^☖ 16:06, 29 August 2019 (UTC)

Being clear, Quillette claims that it's all a big coincidence that they fired him immediately after that footage was released. But most commentators are sort of laughing at that. Simonm223 (talk) 16:09, 29 August 2019 (UTC)

Bezet, opinion pieces and the reporting of opinions do no change the definition of basic words like “journalist”. Jweiss11 (talk) 12:23, 29 August 2019 (UTC)

But him being a journalist isn't WP:BLUESKY, at least in my opinion. We should go with the lowest common denominator based on all of the sources. I personally think "writer" is a good neutral term, and there seem to be other editors who concur, but I do understand other editors feel that "journalist" is adequate. BeŻet (talk) 21:04, 29 August 2019 (UTC)

"Writer" seems better, on balance. XOR'easter (talk) 22:02, 29 August 2019 (UTC)

Ok, I think we are slowly reaching consensus here that "writer" is a better term. Should we give this another 24 hours and then change? BeŻet (talk) 22:12, 29 August 2019 (UTC)

Strongly oppose the use of "writer" here. "Journalist" is not a moral distinction. It is a technical one that is apt here because of the type of writing and photo/video work that Ngo has done. Even if we can conclude that Ngo is an unethical journalist, that does not make him not a journalist. Note the use of "journalist" in the leads of Brian Williams, Stephen Glass, Jayson Blair despite their unethical disgraces while performaning their journalism. There's been a campaign by antifa and a number of antifa-allied or antifa-sympathizing journalists to declare Ngo "not a journalist" on what they believe are ethical grounds going to back to at least the time of his assault in June. Do we really want Wikipedia to speak in antifa's voice here? Jweiss11 (talk) 22:21, 29 August 2019 (UTC)

If we spoke in "antifa's voice", we would describe him as a "far-right propagandist" or a "grifter". Once again, it is not our job tot decide whether he is a journalist or not, but digest what the sources are saying and choose the most adequate label. Finally, comparing Brian Williams to a person who only had his first internship a mere two years ago and was a media editor, wrote his first op-ed just over a year ago, is... strange. BeŻet (talk) 10:51, 30 August 2019 (UTC)

Sorry if my formatting is wrong, in advance. If we do not call Ngo a journalist, we would have to change a lot of other Wikipedia articles about other people who have done similar or even worse things. I looked at a lot of WP pages, and the general consensus seems to be that someone becomes a “former journalist” when they stop doing reporting. So, unless we can show some reason to go against Wikipedia’s policy of not publishing negative information about living people without a lot of evidence, it could be considered original research or libel, which I would oppose. Gonzo journalism is a type of journalism that Andy could reasonably claim to be doing. Let’s not violate WP policy. It will just get tagged and most likely reverted.

As to who “cares about him getting punched,” I find it abhorrent that anyone here would encourage violence against anyone and record it in a public forum. Many people are pacifists and oppose all violence, not just “the Breitbart set.” Your bias is showing. Please be a reasonable, neutral interlocutor if you wish to be respected.

Pammalamma (talk) 02:51, 31 August 2019 (UTC)

Bezet, "not a journalist" is also antifa's voice, just like "far-right propagandist" and "grifter". I brought up Brian Williams, among others, because he is example of someone whose unethical journalism hasn't negated his status as a journalist on Wikipedia--as it should not since "journalist" is not a moral distinction. The same goes for Glass and Blair, among many others. I was making no comparison between these various journalists accomplishments or tenure. Jweiss11 (talk) 03:00, 31 August 2019 (UTC)

No it's not, what does antifascism got to do with assessing who is a journalist and who isn't? BeŻet (talk) 11:22, 1 September 2019 (UTC)

Well ... Perhaps we *should* be changing other Wikipedia articles like the Brian Williams one.

I just cannot see how everyone who writes and gets paid is a journalist. Journalist does have a standard. You are right that some journalism might be shoddy or weak, but if someone has egregiously and intentionally mislead or obscured facts, lied etc

... I don't see how that is journalism being practiced. Perhaps that's the key word.

Is Andy Ngo practicing journalism.... Or pretending to ... and getting paid?

I don't see an issue with calling him a writer. If anything it's a more neutral term than "conservative journalist".

The distinction is to be fair ultimately one of ethics and that is subjective.

But let's look at The New York Times, it is sometimes referred to as left leaning publication, but an individual journalist that works for them is not described as "a liberal journalist". At least not on Wikipedia pages of NYT individual journalist.

You are either a journalist or you are not. You either practice some form of principled standard ethics of reporting ... or you do not.

You can be a crappy journalist who only hears from one side of an issue... But egregiously obscuring, faking or outright lying ... that is not journalism.

There is not a single journalism school or bipartisan read news organisation that would see that as journalism. Not a single. And I challenge anyone to find one that does in say a news organisations Code of Ethics page or some journalism textbook to find one. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Timotam1952 (talk • contribs) 13:20, 31 August 2019 (UTC)

We're not the only ones struggling with what to call him. As Arun Gupta observed in Jacobin: The media don’t know what to make of Andy Ngo. The problem with "writer" is that it doesn't cover everything he does or has done. He worked as an editor, opinion-writer, reporter, photographer, videographer and podcaster. In summary: he produces content for news media. He doesn't appear to be employed, so the most accurate description is the one the New York Times uses here: "independent journalist". It doesn't matter that his adherence to journalistic standards is questioned. We still call Nazi propagandists Henri Nannen and Hermann Esser journalists. Vexations (talk) 19:18, 31 August 2019 (UTC)

We could call him a "content creator" then, however that's not a term used in any RS I think. I still think we should look at what the sources say in this case, however you are write to point out he has worn multiple hats during his (short) career. BeŻet (talk) 22:18, 31 August 2019 (UTC)

Agreed, "content creator" is more accurate, but no reliable sources that I can find call him that. Maybe we should just call him a student. He doesn't appear to have graduated from PSU's Graduate Program in Political Science yet. Vexations (talk) 22:41, 31 August 2019 (UTC)

Above unsigned comment was made by Vexations. Jweiss11 (talk) 23:11, 3 September 2019 (UTC)

Eh it's 2019, everyone in digital media is going to have various roles.

Also yes there appears to be Nazi's who have the term journalist on Wikipedia. But I'm not sure we can surmise why or how they came to that point. Also one of those has Nazi propagandist right after the word journalist...

We should simply look at our own discussion/debate and how we came to it.

Andy Ngo is unlikely a journalist by any standard.

And if he is not a journalist

Does that not make him an activist?

Seems like a more apt description perhaps.

 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Timotam1952 (talk • contribs) 07:08, 1 September 2019 (UTC) 

Activist probably captures all of his work. Darthmenisis (talk) 17:22, 6 September 2019 (UTC)

Activist does sound like a good description, probably even better than "writer", do we have consensus on this? BeŻet (talk) 11:52, 9 September 2019 (UTC)

No, we don't have a consensus on this, since to cherry pick the one obviously partisan source (GQ) that calls him an activist would be a violation of NPOV. Most major RS call him a conservative journalist, and so that's what we should call him. Shinealittlelight (talk) 12:07, 9 September 2019 (UTC)

We have already achieved consensus above to call him a writer, but we gave this a bit more time. Also, it is false that most major RS call him a conservative journalist. BeŻet (talk) 12:13, 9 September 2019 (UTC)

Frequent reverts

@Red Rock Canyon: I cannot assume good faith any more while you keep reverting my changes. It is rude, inconsiderate and authoritarian. You have a very biased view of what is worthy of inclusion in the article. Somehow every time Andy gets silly stringed, we have to include it, but when he gets implicated in a criminal case, being present at planning an assault as part of an ongoing lawsuit, that's somehow not important. Please stop abusing the revert button. Please start behaving in a respectful and considerate manner, and stop posting links to rules you haven't even read: how is WP:COATRACK related to this, for instance? A coatrack article is a Wikipedia article that ostensibly discusses its nominal subject, but instead focuses on another subject entirely. It doesn't make sense for you to point at it. Likewise, WP:NOTNEWS isn't a problem here, because this is a significant development, not simply a mentioning that Andy had a burger at his favourite bar. BeŻet (talk) 09:24, 25 August 2019 (UTC)

You seem to believe that any time any website publishes anything about Andy Ngo, it is immediately worthy of inclusion. I don't believe you've read BLP, and if you have, then you haven't understood it. See WP:BLPPUBLIC in regards to your latest edit: If you cannot find multiple reliable third-party sources documenting the allegation or incident, leave it out. You can't just accuse a living person of committing a crime off the back of a single, borderline reliable source. But you don't care about that. If a single source publishes anything negative about this guy, you add it the second you see the article. In this case, I believe you waited all of two hours after seeing this single article come up to add it to the article. Is that "multiple reliable third-party sources"? No. In fact, at this moment, that is still the only thing close to a reliable source documenting this incident. Here's another policy I've already quoted here, which I will assume you have simply neglected to read, since the alternative is that you lack the competence to understand our policies or simply don't believe they apply to you: An article should not give undue weight to minor aspects of its subject, but should strive to treat each aspect with a weight proportional to its treatment in the body of reliable, published material on the subject. For example, discussion of isolated events, criticisms, or news reports about a subject may be verifiable and impartial, but still disproportionate to their overall significance to the article topic. This is a concern especially in relation to recent events that may be in the news. If you want me to stop reverting your edits, then read Wikipedia's content policies and stop making garbage edits.

You do have a point; I should've removed the whole paragraph about that incidence, instead of just your addition to it. The fact that he was pepper-sprayed in May is probably not important enough to include in this article. I see no evidence that that incident has the kind of lasting coverage that would make it relevant. Ideally, if we had better sources, we could describe his clashes with protesters in summary style instead of focusing on each incident individually. Red Rock Canyon (talk) 10:08, 25 August 2019 (UTC)

You seem to not realise that literally the only reason this article exists is because of Ngo getting punched in the face. This is his only claim to fame. If you don't believe me, check when the article was created. You seem inconsistent in your arguments: when I did find multiple reliable third-party sources documenting the allegation or incident, it was still not good enough for you. It seems quite clear to me that since the violence he is involved in is the only reason he's on Wikipedia, significant incidents/events revolving around that subject are worthy of inclusion. I implore you to stop reverting edits whenever you dislike something or personally disagree with something, as this is not a good way to work together on Wikipedia. BeŻet (talk) 11:00, 25 August 2019 (UTC)

Also I should add that Ngo is not a public figure (WP:NPF) and is essentially notable for one event (WP:BLP1E), therefore WP:BLPPUBLIC does not fully apply (i.e. the requirement of multiple sources in order to include anything). BeŻet (talk) 13:57, 25 August 2019 (UTC)

So first of all, the requirement for inclusion of controversies on public figures is supposed to be less strict than the requirement for inclusion on non-public figures. Non-public figures receive a higher level of protection from the inclusion of controversial material. If Andy Ngo were a non-public figure, then you should be even more restrained in including claims about criminal activity and the like. Did you even read WP:NPF before linking it? But that's irrelevant because he is a public figure. Let's go through the list on WP:LOWPROFILE:

High-profile: Has given one or more scheduled interviews to a notable publication, website, or television or radio program, as a "media personality" (a.k.a. "public face" or "big name"), a self-described "expert", or some other ostensibly (or would-be) notable commentator. Need not be a "household name", simply self-promotional. May ostensibly represent an employer or other group, but is clearly self-representing as well.

High-profile: Has voluntarily participated in self-publicity activities, such as press conferences, promotional appearances, book signings, and the like; and/or has participated in an attention-seeking manner in publicity for some other concern, such as a cause, election campaign or commercial endorsee.

High-profile: Has appeared as a featured performer or speaker for a publicly advertised event at which admission was collected and/or which garnered significant independent, non-local coverage. May have produced publications (books, DVDs, etc.) or events that at least in part are designed (successfully or not) to self-promote and to attract favorable public attention.

High-profile: Has sought or holds a position of pre-eminence, power, or authority in a field of research, a sport, a business market, a political sphere, or other area of human endeavor, usually at more than a locally-significant level. Such a position does not necessarily convey notability, but is evidence of projection of self-identity into the public consciousness.

High-profile: As of the writing (or review/editing) of the article (or as of the article subject's death) is (or was) engaged in high-profile activity, as described above, with or without a lifelong history of such activities. Or was engaged in high-profile activity as a lifelong endeavor, but is now (or at the end was) attempting to be low-profile. Typically notable or would-be notable for roles of various levels of importance in more than a single major event, or for a major role in one major event.

He checks at least three of those boxes. More importantly, he definitely fits the headline requirement: Persons who actively seek out media attention are not low-profile, regardless of whether or not they are notable. This is a man who constantly promotes himself, who publishes videos about himself, who goes on television frequently, who livestreams his attendance of public events, who publicizes his opinions on issues of public concern, who claims to be an expert.

Second, if I appear to be "inconsistent in my arguments", that is simply because your inclusions often fail more than one policy. First of all, they often fail verification, because the source is either not reliable or the source doesn't back up the claims being made. Second, they are often BLP violations. The sources might be sufficient for verification, but they fail to meet the higher standard applied to controversial changes about living people. Third, they tend to be inclusions of petty, minor events, things that have no lasting significance, and thus fail WP:DUE. I revert not out of some personal animus, but because your edits are just bad. They fail multiple content standards. They're sloppily worded. They don't quite convey what is written in the source. This article is already a mess (a list of individual events instead of a summary of what is notable about the topic), and your edits make it worse. Red Rock Canyon (talk) 23:09, 25 August 2019 (UTC)

So first of all, the requirement for inclusion of controversies on public figures is supposed to be less strict than the requirement for inclusion on non-public figures - That is simply false.

Him being "high profile" does not make him a public figure.

because the source is either not reliable or the source doesn't back up the claims being made - this is false, stop claiming sources are unreliable because you don't like them! This is a totally unacceptable behaviour here, and I implore you one final time to amend your behaviour.

And one more time: there wouldn't be an article about Ngo if he wasn't punched; therefore any news around his confrontations with antifa are worthy of inclusion. Like I've mentioned in a message to you, please consult WP:REVERT, WP:BRD and related policies, especially BRD which clearly and unequivocally states that BRD is not an excuse for a revert. If you do keep reverting changes you don't like, I will forward this issue to an arbiter. BeŻet (talk) 14:40, 26 August 2019 (UTC)

BeŻet, I find your various arguments here bizarre. You're arguing that Andy Ngo is less well-known, and therefore we can be more lax about including negative information about him? That's the reverse of how its supposed to work. The less well-known a figure is, the more cautious we have to be. A giant chunk of the WP:BLP policy is devoted to emphasizing this, see: Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons#Presumption in favor of privacy. And, really, it should almost go without saying.

You also pointed to WP:BLP1E. I don't see how that guideline helps your case. It's a guideline that discourages the indiscriminate inclusion of info about a living person. When someone cites it, its usually to argue that something should be removed from an article, not that something should be added.

(Incidentally, if Ngo is genuinely only notable for the single event where he was roughed up, this page should be moved to something like "The assault of Andy Ngo".) WanderingWanda (talk) 17:30, 29 August 2019 (UTC)

Or more to the point, the article should be deleted outright. I think his fifteen minutes may be up. Simonm223 (talk) 17:45, 29 August 2019 (UTC)

And nobody outside the Breitbart set is going to care that he got punched. Simonm223 (talk) 17:46, 29 August 2019 (UTC)

@WanderingWanda: No, I am not saying that less scrutiny is required. The rule regarding multiple sources for public figures is based around the idea, that since they are a public figure, a lot is being written about that person, and therefore multiple sources reporting on a specific thing implies something more worthy of inclusion. This is something that is hinted in the very first sentence in that section: In the case of public figures, there will be a multitude of reliable published sources. It would be silly to suggest that a less known person needs even more sources to include anything. Anyhow, this point is now moot as at this stage there are multiple sources reporting on the accusations. BeŻet (talk) 21:00, 29 August 2019 (UTC)

Reverts by Granarkadis

Hi Granarkadis, would you please explain the reverts you did to several editors work? These are the only three edits you've made in roughly 2 years, it would be a decent thing to elaborate on your reasoning behind them. PeterTheFourth (talk) 22:39, 25 August 2019 (UTC)

I'd also like to know the reasoning, especially that it's difficult to see how talking about his reporting on antifascist activists, which is most of what he does, is "oddly specific". BeŻet (talk) 14:50, 26 August 2019 (UTC)

He has also left Quillette immediately after the video came out, and The Daily Beast is connecting these two things, although Quillette denies it. I'd want a second source making the connection before adding that part to the article, but the Daily Dot seems sufficient to at least mention the video. It also says a lot more than we're saying in the article: The antifa members were having a peaceful May Day celebration when Patriot Prayer members came to protest, according to the Portland Mercury. Several fights broke out, and now the bar is suing the Patriot Prayer members for allegedly causing the riot. Ngo covered the event on Twitter and blamed the brawl on antifa. ... In Ngo’s coverage of the riots, he posted misleading videos that crop out violent actions from Patriot Prayer members, putting the blame fully on antifa. Since then, videos have emerged that discredit several of his tweets. There's more like that. I don't see how that can be described as a "mistake", as the edit summary did, and clearly that's not how the source describes it. --Aquillion (talk) 04:15, 27 August 2019 (UTC)

I think that at this stage we have plenty of sources and evidence suggesting malicious behaviour on Ngo's side. Arguments presented by a couple editors saying that this is not worthy of inclusion in our article are no longer defensible in any way. BeŻet (talk) 09:24, 27 August 2019 (UTC)

Replacing 'alleged' with 'masked'

Hi Jweiss11, why did you replace instances of 'alleged' with 'masked'? PeterTheFourth (talk) 02:46, 30 August 2019 (UTC)

Because we now have sources say that Ngo was attacked by antifa, which was obvious as day in the absence of some sort of false-flag operation. Jweiss11 (talk) 02:48, 30 August 2019 (UTC)

@Jweiss11: Would you please link those sources here? Some appear to have failed verification. PeterTheFourth (talk) 02:56, 30 August 2019 (UTC)

See https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2019/07/20/senators-want-antifa-activists-be-labeled-domestic-terrorists-heres-what-that-means/ and https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/proud-boys-rally-portland-latest-test-police-n1043526. Those are two sources I added today. The other sources marked "failed verification" can serve to verify other elements of the preceding sentence or be removed. Jweiss11 (talk) 02:59, 30 August 2019 (UTC)

@Jweiss11: I believe we've discussed the WP post in previous sections extensively and ultimately rejected its use for this claim, but I'll read through the NBC News article and see if I can put some thoughts down. Thanks! PeterTheFourth (talk) 03:17, 30 August 2019 (UTC)

Well, I reject the rejection of a reliable source reporting basic facts that are patently obvious. Jweiss11 (talk) 03:22, 30 August 2019 (UTC)

@Jweiss11: I understand that you have your own personal opinions about what is and isn't obvious, which you've talked about before. We mustn't let this bias effect how we cover stuff in the article - we go by reliable sources, emphasis on reliable, and we do check up and make sure that things are reliable for what we cite them for. PeterTheFourth (talk) 03:27, 30 August 2019 (UTC)

Peter, let's get real. We have other editors here tanking basic facts and dismissing reliable sources because of their biases. Jweiss11 (talk) 03:29, 30 August 2019 (UTC)

The placement of the word 'alleged' does seem odd to me. The implication seems to be that the point under contention is that his assailants have antifa affiliation. Do we have reputable sources identifying this as a claim under active dispute? DerEnglischsprachigerHelfer (talk) 04:02, 30 August 2019 (UTC)

Jweiss11, The current phrasing is a bit unfortunate then. The structure of the sentence "Subject was A and B by X, who also C" is such that it makes two claims, one of which is supported by most references, (C), but not A and B. Perhaps this can be rewritten to more accurately summarize what the sources say. Vexations (talk) 11:08, 30 August 2019 (UTC)

Considering Ngo's entanglements with white supremacist groups, it's fully possible the masked assailants were white supremacists who thought beating up Ngo and blaming it on antifa would be a PR win for them. So yeah, alleged. Nobody has demonstrated conclusively the identity of his assailants. Simonm223 (talk) 12:03, 30 August 2019 (UTC)

Simonm223, there's no evidence of a false flag here and no reliable source has reported such. Perhaps, Ngo has been an antifa mole the whole time just to make Quillette and friends look bad? It's nonsense to seriously consider that possibility at this point, as it is obstructive nonsense to consider yours. Jweiss11 (talk) 00:21, 31 August 2019 (UTC)

The video provided by the Oregonian shows masked members of the Antifa group, bearing Antifa flags and symbols, attacking Ngo. Unless you can provide proof of a conspiracy frame to Antifa and its members, it needs to be included. I've fixed it for now. UmbraImpossible (talk) 00:02, 3 September 2019 (UTC)

UmbraImpossible, do you mean the video embedded in this article: https://www.oregonlive.com/news/2019/06/portland-mayor-police-come-under-fire-after-right-wing-writer-attacked-at-protest.html? (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8WzMZxT-41k) Can you point out to us where you see flags and symbols (and which symbols specifically) that allow you to identify the assailants? Vexations (talk) 11:40, 3 September 2019 (UTC)

At around 0:02 and 0:26 you can clearly see members of the mob that are attacking the journalist bearing the "three arrows" symbol. A symbol linked to Antifa as well as far-left militancy. UmbraImpossible (talk) 12:43, 3 September 2019 (UTC)

UmbraImpossible, The video is black at 0:02, but at from the start at 0:04 to 0:05 I see someone wearing a cap, a bandana, a white T-shirt with a red crewneck and olive pants with the Three Arrows. That person disappears from view and does not reappear until 0:14 when we see him again, this time only his body, which shows him wearing shorts and low converse (or similar) sneakers. At 0:26 I see nothing that looks like the three arrow. The man in the white T-shirt never participates in the attack. So much for the video. Now regarding your assertion that the video shows masked members of the antifa group, bearing antifa flags and symbols, attacking Ngo. First of all the three arrows were designed for the Iron Front, an organization of the German social democratic party (SPD), and, to put it mildy, not exactly friends of the Antifaschistiche Aktion, organized by the German communist party (KPD). You come to the conclusion that antifa attcked Ngo because you saw a man who did not particpate in the attack (that we can see) wear a logo of a rival group. That's very poor evidence. I disagree with you that if nobody can prove that the attack on Ngo was a false flag operation to discredit antifa we it needs to be included, your orginal research is flawed, not supported by reliable source and we should simply state the truth: we don't know who Ngo's assailants were. Until they're arrested and convicted I prefer that we simply state that the Ngo was attacked by masked, unidentified assailants. Vexations (talk) 21:58, 3 September 2019 (UTC)

Yeah, just go ahead and watch the video again. There are multiple members of Antifa displaying the three arrows symbol while attacking the journalist in question. You're just really, super wrong here. We don't assume conspiracy theories about false flags without proof. Antifa attacked a journalist, there's reliable sources and video evidence. It's a bummer that you don't like it. But thems the facts. UmbraImpossible (talk) 00:20, 4 September 2019 (UTC)

UmbraImpossible, Yup. I have watched that video frame-by-frame over-and-over again. Your claim doesn't hold up. Provide better evidence. For what it's worth, and in case that wasn't clear: I don't support a conspiracy theory about a false flag operation. I do think we simply don't know the identity of the assailants. Until we do, we don't speculate, and we most definitely don't identify people wearing a logo of a rival group who don't participate in the attack as members of antifa attacking Ngo. Vexations (talk) 01:51, 4 September 2019 (UTC)

You should definitely watch that video again. It shows members of Antifa attacking a journalist. The facts don't support your conspiracy theory and the consensus doesn't support your plans to whitewash an attack on a journalist. You should drop this issue, you're wrong. UmbraImpossible (talk) 01:58, 4 September 2019 (UTC)

UmbraImpossible, I have just told you I don't think there is a false flag operation. Vexations (talk) 02:04, 4 September 2019 (UTC)

UmbraImpossible I watched it again, and I see what you're referring to as occurring at 0:26. At 0:22 (frame 12) a man enters the frame from the right who at 0:24 can be seen throwing something, spilling a liquid. I can't tell if Ngo is hit, but he doesn't respond. At 0:25 (frame 12) he turns, revealing his courier bag, which has a the three white arrows in a circle, against a black background. At 0:27 (frame 18) he disappears from the frame. My reading of that scene is that someone tried to throw a milkshake at Ngo (and missed). If that's the evidence, we should wait to render judgment until a court has evaluated the evidence and convicted them of a crime. Vexations (talk) 02:29, 4 September 2019 (UTC)

Yo, you need to drop it, dude. You're wrong, there's no false flag operation and there's an abundance of video evidence that the Antifa group attacked a journalist. Step away from this one. UmbraImpossible (talk) 02:18, 4 September 2019 (UTC)

Jweiss11, you've again made changes to remove the 'alleged' and also removed some of the failed verification tags. Do you believe you have consensus to remove 'alleged'? Why did you remove the failed verification tags? 11:41, 3 September 2019 (UTC)

PeterTheFourth Yes, I removed "alleged" because is an accepted fact that Ngo was assaulted by antifa. Sources provided back it up and logically the only way it couldn't be true is in the case of a false flag, for which we have no evidence. I restructured the passage to resolve all the failed verification tags. Jweiss11 (talk) 22:46, 3 September 2019 (UTC)

Disagree that it's a universally-accepted fact; the sources differ, with some hedging more cautiously (using 'appeared' and the like.) We can't present something that is in dispute as being uncontroversial universally-accepted fact. --Aquillion (talk) 05:12, 5 September 2019 (UTC)

@Aquillion: which reliable sources dispute that the attackers were antifa? We do have some sources published in the immediate wake of the assault that use the cautious language of "appeared", but as far I know no reliable sources have indicated anyone other than antifa. Jweiss11 (talk) 05:19, 5 September 2019 (UTC)

Here's a few:

• New York Times: Many have blamed Antifa for the beating, which was captured on video. No one has been charged in connection with the assault, which the police are continuing to investigate. (From 8/17, not remotely immediately afterwards.) That's not the sort of language that justifies the "it was definitely Antifa and we should indicate so unequivocally in the article voice" position you're taking here.
• Vox, which is careful to only state exactly what can be seen in the video without labeling anyone, and which says in summary that Whoever punched Ngo, antifa or otherwise, committed a crime.
• Wilmette Week pointedly merely says masked protesters (again, over a month after the event) in an article urging general skepticism.
• qFox 13, Andy Ngo, a journalist for a conservative website, was among those caught up in the violence and blamed Antifa protesters for the attack, and says on Twitter that they took credit for the attack. Rose City Antifa denied that claim on Twitter, saying they have not claimed responsibility for the attack. Portland’s mayor says an investigation into the attack is ongoing.
• CNN says Andy Ngo, a journalist for a conservative website, was among those caught up in the violence and he blames Antifa protesters for the attack. CNN has not been able to confirm that those who attacked Ngo were Antifa protesters.

We have to consider all the sources. Taken collectively, there clearly isn't enough to say that it was definitely antifa in the article voice. You also removed "unidentified", which several sources emphasize - your version gives the (inaccurate) impression that specific attackers have been identified and that the investigation mentioned above completed with a clear conclusion. --Aquillion (talk) 05:25, 5 September 2019 (UTC)

Aquillion makes an excellent point. Even though it may seem obvious to every casual reader that antifa is responsible for attacking Ngo, obviousness is not evidence, and any responsible publication, and that includes us should not draw conclusions that are not supported by evidence. Until the individual attackers have been identified and their membership of antifa proven, directly attributing the attack to antifa is irresponsible.

We could perhaps say a bit more about why antifa dislikes Ngo so much: they claim he is responsible for outing the victim of the May 1, 2019 attack by Proud Boys member Ian Kramer. That's an example of a case where we do have good evidence that someone did something. Vexations (talk) 12:18, 5 September 2019 (UTC)

Unfortunately, for your POV, Wikipedia does not do original research and repeats what reliable sources say. If the reliable source says it's members of Antifa that attacked him, that's what we put in the article. Unless you can find a RS for your conspiracy theory that it isn't Antifa, it needs to be included. That's how Wikipedia works and we shouldn't suspend the rules in order to make you happy. UmbraImpossible (talk) 13:11, 5 September 2019 (UTC)

Agreed, Aquillion the article as it is currently written is irresponsible. The language should be changed until a time when conclusive evidence presents itself. Williamallison (talk) 14:47, 5 September 2019 (UTC)

Antifa has no "membership", so describing the attackers as "members of antifa" is already innacurate. The best way to describe this would be "participants of an antifascist counter-protest". BeŻet (talk) 14:55, 5 September 2019 (UTC)

That's an opinion and one I don't care about. We should stick to the rules and only apply what articles say directly. Not your fringe take on it. UmbraImpossible (talk) 15:04, 5 September 2019 (UTC)

Anyway, if we exclude the sockpuppet, I'm definitely not seeing consensus for these changes here, so I've reverted the relevant text back to where it was at the end of last month. There's too many sources expressing skepticism for us to report it as fact in the article voice. I do think we could go for something other than "alleged" in the lead, but we need to capture the caution present in the sources I linked above in some form - especially the NYT one, which is fairly recent, says "many have blamed", and is careful to note that nobody was charged, though CNN noting the lack of confirmation is also important. --Aquillion (talk) 06:30, 8 September 2019 (UTC)

See also link to Rose City Antifa

Why is this editor allowed to push right wing propaganda on this page? There should be no link to antifa as it's irrelevant and the politics section is completely false and misleading. Either get rid of it or let the truth be on it. This guy shouldn't be allowed to edit antyhing. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Stealthballer (talk • contribs) 14:34, 3 September 2019 (UTC) WHy link to a random antifa group with no apparent link, and particularly one with a clearly biased wiki page? WHy, on a section postulating on his political beliefs can't it be pointed out he's a crypto fascist and an exposed propagandist? Both of those things are well sourced and factual. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Stealthballer (talk • contribs) 14:42, 3 September 2019 (UTC)

It's clear that you needed to get that out of your system, but this isn't the place for general gripes. Perhaps familiarize yourself with how Wikipedia works before publishing your feelings on talk pages. UmbraImpossible (talk) 00:28, 4 September 2019 (UTC)

Position at Quillette

I've tried to find sources that report on Ngo's career, specifically his employment by Quillette. The first of sixteen articles he wrote for them was published on October 11, 2017. That's my WP:OR however, so I can't use it. An article by Ngo for the National Review from May 12, 2017 has a byline that says Andy Ngo is an editor at Quillette. [6] Does anyone have a reliable source? Thanks, Vexations (talk) 12:00, 30 August 2019 (UTC)

Also, regarding his employment by PSU Vanguard, his first publication seems to be from March 27, 2016. (trying to establish a timeline). Vexations (talk) 12:33, 30 August 2019 (UTC)

Change 'antifa' to 'counter protestors' in lead // Reversion of recent edits by User:Williamallison

I've reverted several edits by User:Williamallison to the lead regarding the video of Ngo from May 1 per Wikipedia:Neutral point of view, and Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons. Jweiss11 (talk) 20:57, 2 September 2019 (UTC)

@Jweiss11: Thanks for your feedback, I understand why you reverted the edits. Could I suggest that we remove the rest of the undue weight from the lead as well? Williamallison (talk) 01:36, 4 September 2019 (UTC)

@Williamallison: what else do you think is undue? Jweiss11 (talk) 01:38, 4 September 2019 (UTC)

@Jweiss11: This

Ngo received national attention after he was assaulted by antifa activists in June 2019 while covering their counter protest to a Proud Boys march in Portland.

Williamallison (talk) 01:49, 4 September 2019 (UTC)

Which part of that is undue? The June 2019 assault is rather central to his notability. Jweiss11 (talk) 01:56, 4 September 2019 (UTC)

@Jweiss11: I agree with you that it has added to his notability. Since it is important to mention in Ngo's lead, could I suggest a change to using the more general, 'counter protesters' rather than the assumptive 'antifa'?

Williamallison (talk) 02:36, 4 September 2019 (UTC)

Were some of the counter-protesters not antifa? Note that the body of the article states "On June 29, 2019, while filming a counter-protest to a Proud Boys march in Portland, Ngo was assaulted by antifa protesters." That is supported by sources that specifically state he was assaulted by antifa. Jweiss11 (talk) 03:04, 4 September 2019 (UTC)

@Jweiss11: I haven't seen any evidence that the counter protesters were pro-fascist. There is not enough support in the sources for the lead of this article to state that 'antifa' assaulted Any Ngo. The two articles that are cited don't seem to support what is written in the lead.

Williamallison, the WaPo article cited states "The senators also pointed to conservative journalist Andy Ngo, who in June was left bloodied by antifa activists in Portland, Ore.". The NBC News article cited states "Chaos also broke out during a rally in June, when masked antifa members physically attacked conservative blogger Andy Ngo in an incident shared on social media." Jweiss11 (talk) 03:40, 4 September 2019 (UTC)

@Jweiss11: There are many other sources that state 'counter protestors' rather than 'antifa', however. Is there a distinction between 'antifa' and 'anti-fascist' here? Could we agree on any changes to the lead that would be an improvement? Williamallison (talk) 03:59, 4 September 2019 (UTC)

I agree with Jweiss11 that including the name of the group that attacked him is important, and more precise than the vague term of "counter protesters".UmbraImpossible (talk) 04:08, 4 September 2019 (UTC)

@UmbraImpossible: This single incident being mentioned and including the accused in the lead, is a case of giving too much weight. In addition, the sources that Jwiess mentioned, which use both the terms 'anti-fascist' and 'antifa', are biased in their own right, and deserve to be debated in their own context - not in the lead for this person. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Williamallison (talk • contribs) 04:19, 4 September 2019 (UTC)

It's unfortunate that you don't like the policies of Wikipedia in how we supply sources. The source is reliable, there's video evidence, and it's important to include in the lede. You shouldn't be trying to whitewash this, and that's what you're doing here. Also, don't forget to sign your musings. UmbraImpossible (talk) 04:27, 4 September 2019 (UTC)

@UmbraImpossible: Given the variety of sources on this topic, do you agree that there is room to improve the lead for this article and that it can become more objective? Jweiss11, UmbraImpossible Williamallison (talk) 04:45, 4 September 2019 (UTC)

If by "improve" you mean the continued whitewashing and attempt to distance the attackers from their organization, including claiming it's a false flag conspiracy, then no, not at all. If you mean add reliable sources, remove ambiguity, not add it, and clean up any grammar or spelling mistakes, then yes. But that's the whole freaking point of Wikipedia, so I feel like that's what we should keep in mind. UmbraImpossible (talk) 05:12, 4 September 2019 (UTC)

@UmbraImpossible: By improve, I mean relaying the situation with all of the facts we have available, or if thats not possible to do at this point, just not including it with this exact phrasing in the lead for this article. The sources used for this phrasing are vague enough on their own, and don't need yet another re-interpretation. My favor is that relay the situation with all of the facts we have available. Williamallison (talk) 05:37, 4 September 2019 (UTC)

It's important we include the name of the group that attacked him. If anything changes, or more details are uncovered by reliable sources, we should add it. That's how this whole thing works. UmbraImpossible (talk) 12:43, 4 September 2019 (UTC)

The problem is that the group that attacked him was not a formal organization and has no specific name. He was attacked... by private citizens who don't like fascists. Simonm223 (talk) 15:08, 5 September 2019 (UTC)

Thank you, Simonm223. Where do we go from here to get consensus and take steps to make sure that the changes are not reverted? Williamallison (talk) 00:12, 6 September 2019 (UTC)

Yes, Ngo was attacked by as-of-yet unidentified private citizens, who beyond a reasonable doubt are affiliated with antifa and were motivated to act as they did by that affiliation. We have reliable sources that clearly state this obvious point. Jweiss11 (talk) 00:23, 6 September 2019 (UTC)

We also have some sources which seem less certain as to that affiliation. And I guess I must be unreasonable, because I have some doubts. Not the first time I have acted unreasonably, though. Cheers! Dumuzid (talk) 01:20, 6 September 2019 (UTC)

Which, sources doubt the affiliation? I'm sure you are generally reasonable, but seriously considering a false flag to the point where you'll edit Wikipedia accordingly strikes me as rather unreasonable. Jweiss11 (talk) 02:13, 6 September 2019 (UTC)

Then, as I say, I am objectively unreasonable. So it goes! As for the sources, I believe Aquillion did a very good job of marshaling them above. Cheers! Dumuzid (talk) 02:22, 6 September 2019 (UTC)

@Jweiss11: I just updated the lead with a source that says explicitly that there is no proof of any affiliation. Williamallison (talk) 02:24, 6 September 2019 (UTC)

Williamallison, you've misinterpreted that source—the "counterprotests" were antifa as this was an antifa counterprotest—and your edit contradicts the body. Will revert shortly. Jweiss11 (talk) 02:28, 6 September 2019 (UTC)

@Jweiss11: Do you have a source that states that the only counter-protestors where members of antifa? I've seen several sources that say there were many groups involved in the counter protest. Williamallison (talk) 21:20, 7 September 2019 (UTC)

No, but I do have multiple source that says Ngo was assaulted by antifa. Those sources are cited in the article. Jweiss11 (talk) 21:22, 7 September 2019 (UTC)

And the source you added, this Vox article, does not "Clarifie[d] that Ngo attacker has not been identified and connections to antifa are alleged". The article states "Last Saturday, the far-right Proud Boys group held a rally in Portland, Oregon. Left-wing groups, including the Portland branch of the militant antifa group, put together a counterprotest — whose attendees clashed with the Proud Boys. But the most notable instance of violence had nothing to do with the Proud Boys: It was an attack by counterprotesters on the conservative journalist Andy Ngo that reportedly sent him to the hospital". While it does not confirm that the attack was antifa, it suggests it was likely antifa, as that's the only group specifically mentioned prior. The other sources cited in the body of the article state antifa explicitly. Jweiss11 (talk) 21:34, 7 September 2019 (UTC)

@Jweiss11: The body of this article actually does not say 'antifa' explicitly, but it uses 'antifascist'. I don't think there is a consensus for mentioning antifa in this article at all. Williamallison (talk) 21:54, 7 September 2019 (UTC)

Reminder of DS on this page.

DS warning to a subsequently indeffed sock. Nothing here anyone needs to worry about
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
@UmbraImpossible: This page has WP:1RR and an enforced 24 hour WP:BRD cycle. Please self-revert your edit which is in contravention of arbcom sanctions on this page. Simonm223 (talk) 15:10, 5 September 2019 (UTC) @UmbraImpossible: You have now violated both the WP:1RR requirement and the WP:BRD 24 hour restriction on this article. I know you've seen the DS notice as you subsequently blanked your user talk page. I'll give you one last chance to self-revert before I ask for arbitration enforcement. Simonm223 (talk) 15:53, 5 September 2019 (UTC) Where is WP:1RR posted on this page? UmbraImpossible (talk) 16:36, 5 September 2019 (UTC) Up at the top of this talk page in the big DS warning. Along with the 24 hour BRD restriction. Which you also broke. Simonm223 (talk) 16:51, 5 September 2019 (UTC) That's weird. I don't see anything. Are you sure you're on the right page? UmbraImpossible (talk) 17:14, 5 September 2019 (UTC) I am literally looking at it right now. Here's a quote copy-pasted from it: WARNING: ACTIVE ARBITRATION REMEDIES The article Andy Ngo is currently subject to discretionary sanctions authorized by active arbitration remedies (see WP:ARBAPDS). An administrator has applied the following restrictions to this article: Limit of one revert in 24 hours: This article is under WP:1RR (one revert per editor per article per 24-hour period). 24-hr BRD cycle: If a change you make to this article is reverted, you may not reinstate that change unless you discuss the issue on the talk page and wait 24 hours (from the time of the original edit). Partial reverts/reinstatements that reasonably address objections of other editors are preferable to wholesale reverts. Simonm223 (talk) 17:16, 5 September 2019 (UTC) Now I can't see the big warning box isn't a legitimate exemption from Arbitration remedies so would you please, kindly, comply and self-revert? Simonm223 (talk) 17:20, 5 September 2019 (UTC) IP - if you have evidence UmbraImpossible is a sock WP:SPI is where you go. You don't spam the same insinuation over and over to the user talk page or on article talk. And your encouragement isn't helping to defuse a situation in which a new editor who, we must assume is new to Wikipedia and may not understand the gravity of willfully ignoring arbcom remediation is currently not in compliance but may very well come around. After all, they've shown great concern for Wikipedia policy in previous talk page commentary. Simonm223 (talk) 17:37, 5 September 2019 (UTC) The IP I was speaking to here was subsequently blocked two weeks and their comments, which went over the line to harassment, were removed per WP:DENY. Simonm223 (talk) 18:19, 5 September 2019 (UTC)

The hammer attack

@Simonm223: Would you care to show where in the sources that this claim is false is shown? I mean our article goes right on to describe the attack after calling the attack false, so it seems like we've got some cognitive dissonance going on. --Kyohyi (talk) 13:10, 6 September 2019 (UTC)

I mean they're already in the article, so how about you, you know, read them. Simonm223 (talk) 13:11, 6 September 2019 (UTC)

I did, which is why my comment when removing the content stated not in sources. And I will again be removing it per WP:BLPREQUESTRESTORE seeing as it is not in the sources, and you have provided nothing new. --Kyohyi (talk) 13:14, 6 September 2019 (UTC)

The daily dot source is very explicit about the falsehood. And there are several others supporting it. If you attempt to start an edit war here, well, you've been warned about the active arbitration remediation on this article. And I am pretty certain I'm not the only one who will oppose your edit. Simonm223 (talk) 13:15, 6 September 2019 (UTC)

The daily dot doesn't say anything about it being false, they do promote the argument that where the hammer came from is important, but that doesn't have anything to do with how the hammer was used. --Kyohyi (talk) 13:19, 6 September 2019 (UTC)

You are wrong. Furthermore your invocation of BLP is incorrect and I strongly recommend that you promptly self-revert as you are in violation of arbitration remediations. Simonm223 (talk) 13:33, 6 September 2019 (UTC)

You're still not demonstrating what in the source supports the claim. If you think I am completely out of line the link is to WP:AE. --Kyohyi (talk) 13:36, 6 September 2019 (UTC)

The article demonstrates that the claim was false, as in, the narrative was false. Since the counter-protesters were attacked by the hammer, managed to grab it and throw it back at the bus, it is simply false to claim that the counter-protesters attacked the bus with a hammer. This is covered in the sources. BeŻet (talk) 14:52, 6 September 2019 (UTC)

This is Synthesis, present passages in the sources, not your own narrative. --Kyohyi (talk) 14:56, 6 September 2019 (UTC)

No, this is WP:BLUESKY. He made a claim. That claim was false. This is just reality. Simonm223 (talk) 15:24, 6 September 2019 (UTC)

Sorry, Essays don't override policy. Provide the passage from the source. --Kyohyi (talk) 15:37, 6 September 2019 (UTC)

I'm agree with Kyohyi. The source doesn't say the claim was false. Provide a quote if you disagree. Shinealittlelight (talk) 16:29, 6 September 2019 (UTC)

In stead of false, can we say that Ngo's statement was misleading? I don't think we should describe a response to an attack as an attack. If someone initiates an act of physical aggression against another, that's an attack, but a response is commonly called defence. Vexations (talk) 22:54, 6 September 2019 (UTC)

I don't see anywhere in sourcing that the people on the bus made the initial "act of physical aggression". Please provide a quote to that effect. Moreover, there is not a consensus that this whole story is due; it was edit warred in and should be removed until consensus is reached. Shinealittlelight (talk) 23:07, 6 September 2019 (UTC)

Shinealittlelight, "act of physical; agression" is my term, a definition of "attack". The source we're talking about, https://www.dailydot.com/layer8/antifa-portland-protests-disinformation-propaganda/ is titled Edited videos of Portland protests are telling half-truths and subtitled The magic of editing is helping people lie about who threw the first punch. The connection to Ngo is made in A clip of one masked counter-protester throwing a hammer through the open door of the bus was used by Ngo as proof of antifa terrorism. and its use in Fox&Friends described as The clip was further edited to show the conflict out of chronological order, clip out the right-wing violence, and highlight the hammer being thrown into the bus. A fair summary of that is "misleading half-truth". Vexations (talk) 00:33, 7 September 2019 (UTC)

I understand that "act of physical aggression" was your language. I'm not asking for you to produce a quote with that exact phrase; I'm asking for you to point where any of these sources says that the people on the bus started the fight, or concede that at best we don't know who started it. Again, the story is undue, it was edit-warred into the article, and it should be removed until consensus is achieved. Needless to say, I regard sub-titles in opinion pieces on the "daily dot" as obviously non-RS. But even if you were going to take that sub-title seriously, the sub-title seems to be talking about the edited version of the video on Fox, not the version Ngo tweeted out. The most you can say about Ngo is that he didn't say that the hammer was grabbed from the people on the bus. That's pretty far short of lying or even misleading. Shinealittlelight (talk) 01:07, 7 September 2019 (UTC)

Shinealittlelight, As it turns out, the man Ngo identified as a victim brought the hammer into the conflict I think that establishes that American Guard initiated the attack. There is additiona evidence that they planned it here https://www.wweek.com/news/courts/2019/08/28/right-wing-brawlers-discussed-a-hammer-fight-while-being-filmed/ I agree that Ngo's reporting on this specific incident is not significant enough to warrant inclusionin an article about him. Something about Ngo's fact-checking (or lack thereof) and editing of videos to leave out right-wing violence is due however. He's not exactly fairly reporting on both sides, is he? Vexations (talk) 01:21, 7 September 2019 (UTC)

Nope. The fact that the hammer started on the bus does not mean that they started the fight. Obviously. And the other source you've provided here (without quoting anything specifically) makes it sound as if the antifa people outside the bus were the first to attack when they "charged" and "surrounded" the bus. Also: would you agree that there is not currently a consensus to include this story? Shinealittlelight (talk) 01:38, 7 September 2019 (UTC)

Shinealittlelight, Sigh. No it doesn't. It is possible that the American Guard was attacked first and they used a hammer (that just happened to be there) in self-defence. That hammer was then taken from them and used to assault them further. I don't believe that is what happened.

Neither Willamette Week nor The Daily dot supports that version of the events.

Due to the poor sourcing and the tenuous relation to the subject (Ngo) I think it is best to omit this event from the article.

An article about the American Guard is due, however. They originated as the Indiana chapter of the Soldiers of Odin. Their co-founder, Brien James, was a member of Vinlanders Social Club, whose members are responsible for nine murders. Vexations (talk) 11:15, 7 September 2019 (UTC)

You and I are in agreement on this article, then. Good talk. Shinealittlelight (talk) 11:17, 7 September 2019 (UTC)

That's a BLP violation toward the protestors. "Surrounding" a bus doesn't constitute a violent act and the source doesn't describe it as an "attack." On the other hand, the source's wording is clear that the hammer attack was initiated by the white supremacist gang member - he "brought the hammer into the conflict." NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 05:19, 7 September 2019 (UTC)

No, it isn't a BLP vio. The article does make it sound as I said. In any case, Vexations claimed that the bus riders started the fight. We clearly don't know who started it for sure. Bringing the hammer into the situation, or even being the first to use it to attack someone, is not the same as starting the fight. Obviously. Shinealittlelight (talk) 11:01, 7 September 2019 (UTC)

Shinealittlelight, Vexations claimed that the bus riders started the fight. Not quite. I wrote that I thought that the fact that a member of American Guard brought the hammer with them establishes that American Guard initiated the attack. The attack I referred to is the hammer attack from the section heading. I don't claim to know who started the brawl. By initiating the attack I meant; first person to use the hammer to physically assault someone. Or as one of the American Guard said according to Willamette Week: "I smacked one of them with a hammer a couple of times".

What I find much more interesting than the hammer is this quote from the same source : "Andy Ngo was fucking told that if he wanted protection from the PBs, he went in with us and he went out with us". We need more and better sources to substantiate the claim that they have an agreement, but it seems that Ngo has received an offer for his protection by these groups without making mention of it in his reporting. Vexations (talk) 22:38, 7 September 2019 (UTC)

There are a lot of issues here, and I'm narrowly focused on the question whether the stuff currently in the article about the hammer attack should be in the article. I am of the opinion that it is undue, that there was never consensus that it was due, and that it should be removed, especially since it was only included in the article at all as a result of a fairly lengthy edit war. Apologies if I mischaracterized what you were saying before; I certainly understood you to have been suggesting that the bus riders started the fight, and I thought that you ended up changing your view of that. So sorry if I got that wrong. But, in any case, I'm not arguing for anything else but that the hammer attack should be removed because there was never a consensus that it was due, and it was only included as a result of an edit war. I am hoping that El C, the admin who was just looking at edit warring on this page, will weigh in on this, but I understand that people are busy. Shinealittlelight (talk) 22:47, 7 September 2019 (UTC)

Shinealittlelight, Since people have now been indicted for their involvement in the incident, and the relation to Ngo's reporting on it so tenuous, I think we should let it rest for now, let the court figure out who did what, and then perhaps, perhaps, if there really is a connection with Ngo, update the article with the facts once they're known.

References

Vexations (talk) 23:08, 7 September 2019 (UTC)

DS notice

As mentioned on AN3, per WP:ONUS, until the potentially BLP-violating addition can be seen to enjoy consensus for inclusion, participants here are prohibited from adding it to the article. Launching an RfC, where consensus were to be made especially clear via an uninvolved closure, would be the next logical step. El_C 02:44, 7 September 2019 (UTC)

Ditto for the edit war over falsely, which also requires consensus for inclusion. Launching an RfC about that, too, is also recommended in the interest of clarity. El_C 03:29, 7 September 2019 (UTC)

I object to your heavy-handed abuse of authority here, El_C. Stating, factually, that sources have said the claim is false or misleading is not the same as saying it in Wikivoice, and there have been no objections to such wording. There can be no non-vexatious BLP-based objection to simply stating what undisputed reliable sources say. It is clear there isn't consensus to say that in Wikivoice, but those are two different things. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 04:48, 7 September 2019 (UTC)

What is the issue with getting consensus for your proposed changes? Edit warring back and fourth is unproductive, anyway. And you did use wikivoice. Please just go through the motions and get the consensus for the additions mentioned above. I really am not seeing why you so strenuously object to that. El_C 04:58, 7 September 2019 (UTC)

The first edit used Wikivoice; I then read the talk page, noted the issue in question, and rephrased to avoid that objection. I have no problem discussing it on the talk page, but there is no valid, non-vexatious BLP objection to my edit which simply repeated what reliable sources have said. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 05:17, 7 September 2019 (UTC)

I was edit conflicted, so I missed that. But if it was claimed to be misleading (or was deemed "false") by several sources, then wikivoice can be used to say that it is so. Get consensus for that, formally. Yes, it may take some time, but what is the rush? Also, all the boldface is a bit much. El_C 05:30, 7 September 2019 (UTC)

Including the story about the hammer was objected to on numerous grounds on this page above. I and others repeatedly stated that it was undue. The sourcing is poor. And no, the sources do not say that his claim was false. These issues were not addressed, and the edit war went on until the material was included in the article. In fact, the story is still in the article against consensus. Above on this page, I, @Red Rock Canyon:, @Jweiss11:, disputed the claim that this story is due at all. Shinealittlelight (talk) 10:56, 7 September 2019 (UTC)

Just above, @Vexations: also states that Due to the poor sourcing and the tenuous relation to the subject (Ngo) I think it is best to omit this event from the article. This has been a persistent opinion on this page among several editors since the material was first included, reverted, and then edit warred back in. The consensus for inclusion was never achieved. It should be removed. However, I will not remove it, as I don't want to participate in the ongoing edit war. Shinealittlelight (talk) 11:20, 7 September 2019 (UTC)

Shinealittlelight, I was referring to the "hammer attack". I do think we should make mention of the fact that Ngo's reporting has been called misleading or even false. Vexations (talk) 11:36, 7 September 2019 (UTC)

@Vexations: Right, I'm not commenting on any passage but the hammer passage. There's never been consensus to include that story, currently sourced to Daily Dot, Huff Post, and Oregonlive. Shinealittlelight (talk) 11:40, 7 September 2019 (UTC)

Shinealittlelight, For clarity, I don't think it is a BLP violation to mention that Ngo has been called a right-wing troll, provocateur and a huckster [7] Vexations (talk) 11:56, 7 September 2019 (UTC)

Shinealittlelight Consensus != Shinealittlelight agrees that it must be included; simply put it's not unanimity. Simonm223 (talk) 12:12, 9 September 2019 (UTC)

El_C I provided supporting RSes for the statement that Ngo's claim was false. Simonm223 (talk) 12:15, 9 September 2019 (UTC)

And yet, still no RfC that would formalize consensus about this. El_C 12:18, 9 September 2019 (UTC)

I only recently got power back after Hurricane Dorian - have only just started reading comments from over the weekend. Simonm223 (talk) 12:22, 9 September 2019 (UTC)

That was a general comment, but welcome back. El_C 12:23, 9 September 2019 (UTC)

I never said that consensus required unanimity. There were several editors who disagreed with inclusion, but despite this the content was edit warred into the article. Shinealittlelight (talk) 12:26, 9 September 2019 (UTC)

I mentioned the refs I used at talk, and then inserted that statement with reliable sources. I don't recall personally reverting at all except for the single revert some days later when the content was removed. So claims of edit warring are falling pretty close to WP:NPA territory. Simonm223 (talk) 12:38, 9 September 2019 (UTC)

I'm not seeing where it was said that you, yourself, edit warred — the comment speaks to several editors having edit warred. Anyway, if each editor among several reverts only once, an edit war may still take place. El_C 12:42, 9 September 2019 (UTC)

I've made my case; I will defer to El C's judgment. Just to be clear: in my opinion, there has been warring over both the inclusion of the hammer story at all (it is currently included), and there has also been edit warring over the word 'false' (or synonyms). El C, as I understand, has said that the latter war should stop until consensus is achieved. But so far El C has not addressed my claim that the hammer story itself (currently in the article) was edit warred into the content and should be removed. El C, if you say you disagree with me about this, I'll drop it. Shinealittlelight (talk) 12:46, 9 September 2019 (UTC)

That hammer story does not lack for reliable sources. If you wish to see consensus about it formalized, also, I advise you to create another RfC about whether it, overall, merits inclusion into the article. El_C 12:48, 9 September 2019 (UTC)

Or conversely, if it constitutes longstanding text, whether it merits removal from the article. El_C 12:50, 9 September 2019 (UTC)

Effectively the situation is that several editors have independently introduced paragraphs on the topic, with my attempt being the most recent. Previous versions were removed by two editors on grounds that they believed that it violated WP:NPOV. The version I put up, which put particular care into neutral language, such as calling Ngo's incorrect statements "false" without positing a motive or even intention behind the falsehood, has not been fully removed at any point in time that I am aware of although kyohyi removed the word "false" since they assert that returning the hammer to its rightful owner after it was removed from him in the course of his attack constitutes an "attack" and thus vindicates Ngo's claim that antifascists attacked the far-right protesters with the hammer. Simonm223 (talk) 12:56, 9 September 2019 (UTC)

The way the material is currently presented in the article is problematic. It's possible Ngo was mistaken. However, it seems the presentation in the article is meant to imply, without actually stating, that this was a deliberate, dishonest claim made by Ngo. The single source suggesting that Ngo was coordinating with others is UNDUE and a BLP problem since it suggests criminal conspiracy with very limited evidence. This seems more like an attempt by some editors to include discrediting material as if Wikipedia's purpose is to tear down people we don't like vs creating neutral articles about subjects. Springee (talk) 13:03, 9 September 2019 (UTC)

That's what the RfC below aims to resolve. But if its scope is too narrow, you are welcome to launch a broader RfC that encompasses other points under contention. El_C 13:08, 9 September 2019 (UTC)

It would seem that certain editors mistake WP:IDONTLIKEIT for WP:NPOV. Considering Ngo's recent firing for explicitly coordinating with far-right figures, this example where far-right coordination has been implied with WP:RS is quite explicitly due inclusion. Frankly the language I used was toning down the accusations in the Oregonian which uses the word "lying" in the article lede while I made sure not to ascribe a motive to his false statement. Simonm223 (talk) 13:08, 9 September 2019 (UTC)

RfC: Do sources support calling Ngo's statements on the hammer attack "false"?

Do the following sources support inclusion of the statement that Ngo's claim that antifascists attacked far-right protesters with a hammer was false?

1. Daily Dot
2. Huffington Post
3. Oregon Live
4. Willamette Week Simonm223 (talk) 12:37, 9 September 2019 (UTC)

!votes

• Yes These sources clearly show that Ngo made a false statement as he claimed the hammer attack was initiated by antifascists while these sources demonstrate that the hammer originated with the far right protesters and the antifascist who held it was simply returning it to its owner with force - an act of self defense rather than an attack. Particularly the Daily Dot is expressly about how editing of the hammer attack video was completed with the apparent intention to mislead. Simonm223 (talk) 12:32, 9 September 2019 (UTC)
• Yes. The sources not only show the statements to have been false (SOP for Ngo) but also give compelling evidence in support of that claim, which has not been refuted as far as I can tell. Guy (help!) 12:38, 9 September 2019 (UTC)

See also Rolling Stone on Quilette's damnatio memoriae. Confirming the Oregon Live analysis: The Guardian / Irish Times, MMA. Guy (help!) 13:24, 9 September 2019 (UTC)

• Yes, but... The huffpo article does not at all support what's being asked here (it mentioned the attack but nothing about the ensuing issue on Ngo's story about where the hammer originated from). Nor does the Williamette Week (it mentioned Ngo's previous run-in with Proud Boys, but not how Ngo covered the bus; the bus attac is a wholly separate part of that article). But the other two sources do clearly try to untangle the timeline of events. Looking at the text in this article, there are clearly wrong statements that need to be fixed. Ngo did provide evidence, but he doctored it to get the timeline he wanted to show (the counterprotestors attacking with the hammer) rather than the actual timeline of the bus group using the hammer first) , and there is nothing in the WW source to support that Ngo at this point in time worked with Proud Boys to influence his coverage of the bus event - yes, the WW does point out that a June altercation was a "hint" to Ngo that he should coordinate with the Proud Boys, but it is a bad, anti-BLP assumption to assume that was involved here without direct evidence. --Masem (t) 13:21, 9 September 2019 (UTC)
• Yes The narrative Ngo presented was false, and his claim was only technically correct on a very superficial level. The term "false narrative" is used a lot in the sources. Therefore, it is safe to say he made a false claim because the protesters did not "attack" but "retaliated". BeŻet (talk) 13:23, 9 September 2019 (UTC)
• No. I think the whole story is undue, and the sourcing weak. Nobody will care about this little twitter fight in a year. Moreover, the sources do not say that Ngo made false statements; they only say that he failed to note that the bus riders were the ones who brought the hammer into the situation. To my knowledge, no one has yet produced a direct quote from these sources supporting the language of "false". Shinealittlelight (talk) 13:27, 9 September 2019 (UTC)

• Oppose: First, it does appear that the anti's attacked the far-righties with a hammer. Even if that hammer came from the hands of a far-righty, the statement would still be true. But that's not the bigger problem. The problem isn't if Ngo was correct or not. I wouldn't trust that sources that are so unsympathetic to Ngo are going to be 100% correct but that isn't the primary issue here. The primary issue is was Ngo deliberately misrepresenting the story? Let's assume Ngo was incorrect. What content should be added to the article? Currently the article reads like Ngo engaged in a conspiracy to lie about events and mislead the public via his reporting. Many reporters will observe a situation and get it wrong. That doesn't mean that was their intent. This is looking like a BLP problem since the text is implying this was a willful, dishonest representation of obvious facts instead of something that appears far more gray. Honestly, this whole things seems to be presented in an UNDUE fashion in the article. The sources above seem primarily to focus on the attack, not if/that Ngo got it wrong. The HuffPo, which is perhaps the most reliable of the bunch only mentions that Ngo was attacked in June. Reviewing the sources, the HuffPo doesn't really dive into the controversy and as such it's weak to say Ngo was wrong. The reporter simply didn't critically check that fact either way. The WW source only says that the far-right person used a hammer. That isn't enough detail one way or the other. Was it the only hammer? OL again many not be a very neutral source and given that this is a case where sympathy for one side or another could color reporting that is a problem. The OL source does suggest the hammer started on the bus but it's not clear if the first use was in self defense or offense. It certainly supports the claim that a hammer was used offensively against the people on the bus. Finally, the DD. The reporting again seems to have a very strong bias so we have to be careful with interpretation of facts. For example, it says antifa members assaulted Ngo. If I read up in the talk page history I see that is a point in dispute (antifa vs counter protesters vs just people in masks etc). So now we (as wiki editors) are being asked to accept some factual statements but ignore others. The DD says, "A clip of one masked counter-protester throwing a hammer through the open door of the bus was used by Ngo as proof of antifa terrorism."[emphasis mine] But the cited posts don't say "antifa terrorism". Again the DD article doesn't make it clear if the hammer was initially used only in self defense or was initially used for offense. Since the tone of the hammer material in the article is already, "Ngo is trying to mislead" I think this is just going to make things more problematic. Remove the whole thing. Springee (talk) 13:29, 9 September 2019 (UTC)

General discussion

I have posted RfC notices to WP:BLP/N, WP:NPOV/N and WP:RS/N as relevant noticeboards. Simonm223 (talk) 13:00, 9 September 2019 (UTC)

References